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Dysartes wrote:Didn't that have Eldar in 4th, but only 3/33 (IIRC?) running a Xenos list at all?

stratigo wrote:Except for the harley list that got near the top you mean? At 4th? At the vanguard GT? Or Aidelaide where Drukhari of all things made 3rd. And, like, orks were number 1. The actual tourneys going on aren't so one sided as far as their actual results. What one GT are you talking about, cause that's two where eldar made it to the top 4

CE provide an extremely effective firebase while harleys do your ob capping and charge assassinations. Warwalkers, actually good now. As are falcons. And, like, all the good firebase units that were good in the last edition. They didn't suddenly get bad. Crimson hunter exarchs are still a good unit.

Oops, somehow I totally missed that Harlequin list at 4th. My bad.

I do think if CWE are going to need Harlequin support to do well, then that says they're not in a good place. But I guess we'll have to see.

 catbarf wrote:

Dysartes wrote:Didn't that have Eldar in 4th, but only 3/33 (IIRC?) running a Xenos list at all?

stratigo wrote:Except for the harley list that got near the top you mean? At 4th? At the vanguard GT? Or Aidelaide where Drukhari of all things made 3rd. And, like, orks were number 1. The actual tourneys going on aren't so one sided as far as their actual results. What one GT are you talking about, cause that's two where eldar made it to the top 4

CE provide an extremely effective firebase while harleys do your ob capping and charge assassinations. Warwalkers, actually good now. As are falcons. And, like, all the good firebase units that were good in the last edition. They didn't suddenly get bad. Crimson hunter exarchs are still a good unit.

Oops, somehow I totally missed that Harlequin list at 4th. My bad.

I do think if CWE are going to need Harlequin support to do well, then that says they're not in a good place. But I guess we'll have to see.

The changes to Look Out Sir will hurt Harlequins quite badly too. I wouldn't be shocked to see them crumple somewhat, they rely so heavily on characters (Death Jester and Shadowseer in particular) that lose the ability to hide.

If this goes into "muh Xenos meta" I think you have to wait and see.

My cynical view is that Tau are still okay - if not perhaps top tier. On paper its a downgrade - but there was an awful lot of "tau are awful, codex is broken, oh look they seem to have won quite a few tournaments" back in 8th. So I'm sort of suspect on people banging the same old drum as if that victorious interlude never happened. They were never in say the Necron spot.

CWE are probably in a worse space, because they are clearly pointed on the basis of Alaitoc (and old Ynnari) cheese, which I think has deservedly been nerfed. But they probably need a genuine rebalance (i.e. not what's happened) to take account of that. Harlies are in a decent spot.

Even DE are a bit odd, because while I'd say tehy are in a bad spot *on points* venoms/raiders are excellent mechanisms to jump all over the primary, so its sort of a wait and see there too. Not sure DE players (especially people who adopted them in 8th) will necessarily like the build, but they may not be bottom tier as thought.

I've never played an Imperial force, but thanks to this, I'm looking at Custodes, but with converted minis, as I'm really not a fan of the models. I'd rather makesome cool alien race that counts as Custodes (with appropriate sizes and such).

 Jidmah wrote:
IMO any modifier that you impose on yourself (moving heavy weapons, advancing and shooting assault, shooting both sides of a combi-weapon, firing into combat, etc) should reduce your BS instead of being -1 to hit, so those stack with -1 to hit modifiers.

Outside of that, I think the cap is fine as stacking those modifiers are an inherently broken mechanic as units punished based on their ballistic skill, not on their effectiveness. 300 points worth of ork shooting get reduced to 150 points by -1 to hit, while 300 points of eldar or marine shooting only goes down to 225.

I agree. as for flimsier races, how did eldar survive before 8th edition? because I'm pretty sure 7th and earlier didn't have -Xs to hit. honest question here

BrianDavion wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
IMO any modifier that you impose on yourself (moving heavy weapons, advancing and shooting assault, shooting both sides of a combi-weapon, firing into combat, etc) should reduce your BS instead of being -1 to hit, so those stack with -1 to hit modifiers.

Outside of that, I think the cap is fine as stacking those modifiers are an inherently broken mechanic as units punished based on their ballistic skill, not on their effectiveness. 300 points worth of ork shooting get reduced to 150 points by -1 to hit, while 300 points of eldar or marine shooting only goes down to 225.

I agree. as for flimsier races, how did eldar survive before 8th edition? because I'm pretty sure 7th and earlier didn't have -Xs to hit. honest question here

At one point, there was Initiative as an extra stat. Eldar had high initiative, so they always went first in combat, which improves your survivability a fair bit. They also had some decent saves. And space marines didn't have widespread rerolls. And custodes didn't really exist, so the hardest things (that weren't tanks) eldar had to worry about were terminators.

Eldar were also faster, being able to run and shoot was their unique trick. Now everyone can do it, even imperial guard can be faster than eldar now.

 Blndmage wrote:
I've never played an Imperial force, but thanks to this, I'm looking at Custodes, but with converted minis, as I'm really not a fan of the models. I'd rather makesome cool alien race that counts as Custodes (with appropriate sizes and such).

Tyranid Warriors painted gold!! I'd suggest the Hive Guard models too, but they're crazy expensive.

There's probably something you could pull from Fantasy. I wish I knew some alternatives from a non-gw line, but I don't.

Niiru wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
IMO any modifier that you impose on yourself (moving heavy weapons, advancing and shooting assault, shooting both sides of a combi-weapon, firing into combat, etc) should reduce your BS instead of being -1 to hit, so those stack with -1 to hit modifiers.

Outside of that, I think the cap is fine as stacking those modifiers are an inherently broken mechanic as units punished based on their ballistic skill, not on their effectiveness. 300 points worth of ork shooting get reduced to 150 points by -1 to hit, while 300 points of eldar or marine shooting only goes down to 225.

I agree. as for flimsier races, how did eldar survive before 8th edition? because I'm pretty sure 7th and earlier didn't have -Xs to hit. honest question here

At one point, there was Initiative as an extra stat. Eldar had high initiative, so they always went first in combat, which improves your survivability a fair bit. They also had some decent saves. And space marines didn't have widespread rerolls. And custodes didn't really exist, so the hardest things (that weren't tanks) eldar had to worry about were terminators.

Eldar were also faster, being able to run and shoot was their unique trick. Now everyone can do it, even imperial guard can be faster than eldar now.

aren't eldar largely a shooting race though? also custodes big things are 2+ dmg weapons that dispropostionatly impacts marines more then it does eldar

BrianDavion wrote:


aren't eldar largely a shooting race though? also custodes big things are 2+ dmg weapons that dispropostionatly impacts marines more then it does eldar

Eldar have Howling Banshees, Striking Scorpions, and Harlequins, the most skilled and deadly combat specialists in the galaxy.

In the lore, anyway. On the tabletop, the Banshees and Scorpions have been unusable garbage for years, pretty much since initiative was removed. They're so fragile that charging guardsmen can murder them before they get a chance to fight back. Harlequins are still ok though, mostly because they are agile enough to avoid getting charged.

Niiru wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:


aren't eldar largely a shooting race though? also custodes big things are 2+ dmg weapons that dispropostionatly impacts marines more then it does eldar

Eldar have Howling Banshees, Striking Scorpions, and Harlequins, the most skilled and deadly combat specialists in the galaxy.

*Drazhar laughs in your general direction*

Banshees and Scorpions have already been garbage when I started in 5th.
Initiative has nothing to do with it, the issue has always been bad close combat on S3 models.

 Jidmah wrote:
Banshees and Scorpions have already been garbage when I started in 5th.
Initiative has nothing to do with it, the issue has always been bad close combat on S3 models.

I would agree given my own experience. They worked "ok" in 4E when LoS could be easily blocked by 2" of terrain, Infiltration allowed for setup on turn 1 18" away from the enemy lines by Scorpions, Banshees ignored all armor saves, and they could ride in transports that could cross the board in 1 turn and took substantially more firepower to kill than tracked heavy battle tanks, could hide by consolidating into new combats, the general levels of shooting firepower/wound output available to armies was a fraction of what it is now, and when they only needed to win combat by 1 to break an enemy unit and run them down. Initiative was only a very minor thing relative to these others, not completely irrelevant (particularly for Sweeping Advance), but definitely not the biggest concern.

Niiru wrote:
...In the lore, anyway. On the tabletop, the Banshees and Scorpions have been unusable garbage for years, pretty much since initiative was removed. They're so fragile that charging guardsmen can murder them before they get a chance to fight back. Harlequins are still ok though, mostly because they are agile enough to avoid getting charged.

Maybe they need cheap transports so they can swarm the way Harlequins and DE can. Craftworld Venoms!

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Niiru wrote:
...In the lore, anyway. On the tabletop, the Banshees and Scorpions have been unusable garbage for years, pretty much since initiative was removed. They're so fragile that charging guardsmen can murder them before they get a chance to fight back. Harlequins are still ok though, mostly because they are agile enough to avoid getting charged.

Maybe they need cheap transports so they can swarm the way Harlequins and DE can. Craftworld Venoms!

Which is weird, seeing as venoms and starweavers are both based on the Vyper chassis. But the vyper can't carry troops for... reasons.

Also, Venoms/weavers can't screen characters anymore, which is a pretty big nerf for DE and Harlies

The change to look out sir is not fair to dark kin and Harlequins.

Moorecox wrote:
The change to look out sir is not fair to dark kin and Harlequins.

Less fair to Harlequins. DE at least can put down cheap footsloggers or Raiders.

BrianDavion wrote:
I agree. as for flimsier races, how did eldar survive before 8th edition? because I'm pretty sure 7th and earlier didn't have -Xs to hit. honest question here

Can't speak to 6th/7th, but Back In The Day (3rd-5th), a Space Marine was shooting a S4 attack once out to 24" or twice out to 12", hitting on 3+ with no rerolls, and your basic Aspect Warrior was getting either a 4+ or 3+ save against it.

You have to keep in mind that general lethality was a lot lower across the board. There were very few rerolls, with the most common one being that twin-linked weapons allowed you to reroll hits, whereas currently they're treated as two weapons so you get double the shots. Armor saves being all-or-nothing meant that if you had a 4+ you always got a save against common weaponry, and with a 3+ you still got a save against heavy bolters and autocannons. Even if you were getting hit by heavy weapons, cover gave you a 5+ invuln to fall back on. When it comes to vehicles, the specifics depend on the edition but in general skimmers (flying vehicles) were very hard to hit.

On top of that, mobility was lower across the board, as Advancing wasn't part of the game. More importantly, Heavy weapons couldn't move and shoot at all, and Rapid Fire weapons were limited to 12" range if they moved. Eldar, however, had a lot of Assault-type weapons which suffered no penalty from moving, and had Fleet of Foot, which let them move an extra D6" at the cost of all shooting.

So this basic mobility, plus their very fast/hard-to-hit transports, plus less incoming fire with fewer rerolls and less ignoring their saves, allowed them to control the range in their favor. Melee Aspect Warriors could close the distance quickly and charge, while the shorter-ranged shooting ones could get in and start shooting. They also had the benefit of being able to shoot Assault weapons and then charge (Rapid Fire and Heavy weapons didn't allow you to charge in the same turn), and in melee had high Initiative stats, which dictated who strikes first.

I think that about covers it. Now everyone is faster, everyone can shoot and then charge so Eldar are more likely to be on the receiving end, chargers strike first so if charged Eldar are likely to die before they can swing, general fire output is way higher across the board, those flying transports aren't nearly as hard to kill, and AP devalues those previously-useful 3+/4+ saves. Basically, all the things Eldar relied on, both offensively and defensively, have been either weakened, stripped from the game entirely, or given to everyone else. All that's left is clinging to hit modifiers and a race to the bottom for points costs.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Banshees and Scorpions have already been garbage when I started in 5th.
Initiative has nothing to do with it, the issue has always been bad close combat on S3 models.

I would agree given my own experience. They worked "ok" in 4E when LoS could be easily blocked by 2" of terrain, Infiltration allowed for setup on turn 1 18" away from the enemy lines by Scorpions, Banshees ignored all armor saves, and they could ride in transports that could cross the board in 1 turn and took substantially more firepower to kill than tracked heavy battle tanks, could hide by consolidating into new combats, the general levels of shooting firepower/wound output available to armies was a fraction of what it is now, and when they only needed to win combat by 1 to break an enemy unit and run them down. Initiative was only a very minor thing relative to these others, not completely irrelevant (particularly for Sweeping Advance), but definitely not the biggest concern.

They were a bit more survivable back then due to the AP system, and they reduced incoming attacks by attacking first. I did alright with scorpions and banshees back then.

One of the frustrating things is that GW gimps eldar units structurally and then puts in rules or buffs to help you build them back up to something closer to average. As far as I can see, it's mostly for flavour - scorpions suck but here's a model that if you coordinate well enough, roll well enough and avoid being killed, can boost them to a level slightly below ok. Because eldar are this special coordination king army....


CWE have been too heavily tied to the buffs offered by warlocks and farseers for too long. They've balanced the whole army with the assumption psychic support will always be there. But all this does is create a frustratingly boring army to play, because you HAVE to run warlocks and farseers (and spirit seers now) if you want the rest of your army to be effective AT ALL.

The reason marine rerolls are such a problem is that they're ALREADY GOOD without them. The rerolls just make them AMAZING instead.

While most eldar units are subpar and you've got to jump through hoops to make them work. Almost all conversations around eldar being broken or not are argued against by 'but if you add a farseer or a warlock, then that unit is good'. Because that's so ingrained into the game that no one can see the ridiculousness of having units literally suck if they don't have OTHER units alongside them. Eldar play more like a WFB undead army, where you spammed necromancers to make your units effective. The difference being though that the eldar are not a horde army of lowly skilled chaff, but a highly skilled specialist and advanced fighting force.


If GW are serious about actually balancing the CWE (which I doubt) then apart from refreshing the entire line with updated plastics, they need to balance the army WITHOUT psychic support first and then balance the introduction of farseers et al after that. Because the eldar army should not REQUIRE a farseer to function.


This is the reason that CWE always end up with only one or two competitive builds - the variety of units and themes (it's a combo of knights, guard, sisters and teminators unitwise) make it hard to balance so they nerf units but some slip through and those are the ones the players latch onto with their buffs - when it's already SO HARD to play the army with all the pointless coordination requirements you get good and optimising your formations and plays, so of course they're going to get farseer skyrunners and shining spears, if you can only buff one unit and buffing your units is the only effective build, you're going to need to go all in on those few units you can actually leverage/..

Definitely concur about Eldar being far too built around psychic support, the only way they've been viable without it is basically as a tank/walker company (and even then, only marginally), and that psychic support has often been taken way over the top in terms of support capability (same way SM rerolls are now) while leaving the army utterly toothless without it. A Farseer shouldn't be an auto-include in every Eldar fighting force, and Autarch's should be substantially more common and able to command forces on their own.

As an eldar player I always hated the alitoic CHE spam+ farseer doom&guide..

The issue should have been resolved with a cap to not benefit from alitoic, as well as a hefty point hike.
My shadow specters which are T3 3+ 1W infantry priced higher than the intercessor needed a -2 base in order to survive and not fall over to a stiff breeze. In order to improve the modifiers LFR cost CP its not like a free ride, and you needed to throw in a psyker with conceal and hope the power goes off and is not denied. So the strategy was only viable so far because you needed crap troops in order to generate the CP.

I played exclusively without eldar planes or ynnari bullcrap Opness... Because it was OP anyone outside of GW could see it clear as day.. And I can attest to it being HARD against pre-2.0 marines or any army without taking those clealry OP units.
So to me the issue was never modifiers. The issue was modifiers on a stupidly strong lowly priced flier units that was for all intents and purposes.
I burned through most of my CP in the first turn in 8 dodging and weaving from my army melting away...

6 always hit would have been enough but certainly obscuring terrain stacking on top of alitoic would have been an issue.

Another dakkanaut posted a table a while back when this issue was being discussed last time and people proposed obscuring terrain rules like kill team. A -2 to hit made no difference a BS3 unit that gets the benefit of a full re-roll.

The fact that a unit can advance and shoot/move shoot heavy weapon while shooting through obscuring while a unit standing still is no more accurate is dumb.

I fear for the codex because as someone pointed out GW cant help themselves in doing a 180 and deciding "actually this is stupid lets just from now on ignore this core rule for armies"
And if only CWE would get to stack modifers I dont think it would be fair so I certainly dont want that. I remember vaguely in 3rd ed when necrons drop eldar shtic was re-roling saves. Maybe that could be a thing again ? *shudders*

Interestingly, How many combos are there that increase/decrease BS while modifiing the roll? There must be some. I can think of Disco lord improve the BS rather than the hit roll from memory. So that could potentially stack with a +1 to hit from another source? (not a chaos player, but been on receiving end)

Niiru wrote:
They're so fragile that charging guardsmen can murder them before they get a chance to fight back.

That's some pretty ridiculous hyperbole.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:
the issue has always been bad close combat on S3 models.

If Banshees catch the +1S on power swords they'd be in a nicer spot. Scorpions have plenty of mortal wounds now.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Niiru wrote:
They're so fragile that charging guardsmen can murder them before they get a chance to fight back.

That's some pretty ridiculous hyperbole...

10 Catachans in range of a Priest kill on average...3.5 Howling Banshees. Maybe you're the kind of person who thinks "my elves are super-speedy and none should die when they get charged by puny mon-keigh!" but in practice I don't think getting charged by Guardsmen is a large part of Eldar melee unit's durability problems given the sheer volume of S3-S5 shooting some armies can put downrange.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Niiru wrote:
They're so fragile that charging guardsmen can murder them before they get a chance to fight back.

That's some pretty ridiculous hyperbole...

10 Catachans in range of a Priest kill on average...3.5 Howling Banshees. Maybe you're the kind of person who thinks "my elves are super-speedy and none should die when they get charged by puny mon-keigh!" but in practice I don't think getting charged by Guardsmen is a large part of Eldar melee unit's durability problems given the sheer volume of S3-S5 shooting some armies can put downrange.

Does that include shooting? Even assuming the guard don't shoot for some reason, that leaves 1.5 howling banshees to fight back with, which isn't going to do anything at all.

Which was kinda the whole point of this line of comments - "Why are banshees too fragile to use now, when they used to be better in previous editions". Because they can die en-mass before they get a chance to do anything.

I do think GW reckongizes that some of the older classic units are in a bad spot. they're using marines as a test bed I think but I'd not be suprised to see GW make tweeks as nesscary

It looks like GW team is to much of space marines fanboys to use their little imagination to balance other factions rules. For instance 2CP strat that negate higher STR weapons is not a problem but 2 CP strat that give you -1 to hit is big problem. First example excuse is because its close to the lore and the second is problem because the feel bad regardless of the lore. There is easy fix to modifiers to hit, just make them unable to modify you more than 5+, that way armies with bad BS will not suffer and you will not delete glasscannon army its main defense, just because i cant kill 240 pts flyer with 1 dread so i`m so sad and i`m crying

BlackSwanDelta wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
[This was literally the issue that existed with previous editions where things like Storm Shields would have different stats across two different codices.

Can you clarify the actual issue here for me, then? The fact they both use "cameleoline" in "camo cloaks" and "cameoline cloaks" means practically nothing when you take into the context of the extensive lore difference between the two factions. Are you talking about "Storm Shields" and "Storm Shields"? Because I can see a problem with that from a game play perspective. However, uniquely named Wargear, like "Camo Cloaks" and "Cameleoline Cloaks" simply do not have that problem, for obvious reasons. Are you talking about stuff like rules affecting "bolter" weapons before the keyword system? Because that's not really a problem anymore because of, well, the keyword system. If this is the case, are "relics" with similar names, models, and stats also an issue, and if so, why or why not?

You're missing Kan's thought process here. Eldar players are complaining -3 to hit doesn't help so the suggestion was to make their camo cloaks behave the same as marines since they're made of the same stuff. That would give them improved armour rather than stacking modifiers helping out the eldar. There's such a strong knee-jerk of being opposed to literally anything marine-related that you're defending keeping a pointless rule on rangers for the sakes of not having the same as what those apparently OP marines have.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
IMO any modifier that you impose on yourself (moving heavy weapons, advancing and shooting assault, shooting both sides of a combi-weapon, firing into combat, etc) should reduce your BS instead of being -1 to hit, so those stack with -1 to hit modifiers.

Outside of that, I think the cap is fine as stacking those modifiers are an inherently broken mechanic as units punished based on their ballistic skill, not on their effectiveness. 300 points worth of ork shooting get reduced to 150 points by -1 to hit, while 300 points of eldar or marine shooting only goes down to 225.

I agree. as for flimsier races, how did eldar survive before 8th edition? because I'm pretty sure 7th and earlier didn't have -Xs to hit. honest question here

Stuff like move shoot move for one. Who cares about -X to hit when you can move into open, shoot and then move out of sight.

Marin wrote:
It looks like GW team is to much of space marines fanboys to use their little imagination to balance other factions rules. For instance 2CP strat that negate higher STR weapons is not a problem but 2 CP strat that give you -1 to hit is big problem. First example excuse is because its close to the lore and the second is problem because the feel bad regardless of the lore. There is easy fix to modifiers to hit, just make them unable to modify you more than 5+, that way armies with bad BS will not suffer and you will not delete glasscannon army its main defense, just because i cant kill 240 pts flyer with 1 dread so i`m so sad and i`m crying

That makes the problem worse actually. Why bother stacking modifiers beyond -2 at the most? It literally has no effect on 1 full army and half of some others. Majority of armies are no worse off than with a -1, only marines and eldar are slightly bothered by this, but since you've gone from affecting everyone fairly to 75% of the game not being any different, people simply wouldn't bother stacking - to hit since it's wasted 75% of the time.

Dudeface wrote:

Marin wrote:
It looks like GW team is to much of space marines fanboys to use their little imagination to balance other factions rules. For instance 2CP strat that negate higher STR weapons is not a problem but 2 CP strat that give you -1 to hit is big problem. First example excuse is because its close to the lore and the second is problem because the feel bad regardless of the lore. There is easy fix to modifiers to hit, just make them unable to modify you more than 5+, that way armies with bad BS will not suffer and you will not delete glasscannon army its main defense, just because i cant kill 240 pts flyer with 1 dread so i`m so sad and i`m crying

That makes the problem worse actually. Why bother stacking modifiers beyond -2 at the most? It literally has no effect on 1 full army and half of some others. Majority of armies are no worse off than with a -1, only marines and eldar are slightly bothered by this, but since you've gone from affecting everyone fairly to 75% of the game not being any different, people simply wouldn't bother stacking - to hit since it's wasted 75% of the time.

Because there are units that hit on 2s, there are plus to hit modifiers and full rerolls.

Tyel wrote:
If this goes into "muh Xenos meta" I think you have to wait and see.

My cynical view is that Tau are still okay - if not perhaps top tier. On paper its a downgrade - but there was an awful lot of "tau are awful, codex is broken, oh look they seem to have won quite a few tournaments" back in 8th. So I'm sort of suspect on people banging the same old drum as if that victorious interlude never happened. They were never in say the Necron spot.

CWE are probably in a worse space, because they are clearly pointed on the basis of Alaitoc (and old Ynnari) cheese, which I think has deservedly been nerfed. But they probably need a genuine rebalance (i.e. not what's happened) to take account of that. Harlies are in a decent spot.

Even DE are a bit odd, because while I'd say tehy are in a bad spot *on points* venoms/raiders are excellent mechanisms to jump all over the primary, so its sort of a wait and see there too. Not sure DE players (especially people who adopted them in 8th) will necessarily like the build, but they may not be bottom tier as thought.

Would like to see some results to back up that theory that Tau are okay.

Xeno armies at the moment are concerned as marines, custodes came out of the edition change hot and marines are getting their 9th edition codex shortly which people are not looking forward to after the OP cheese from Marines 2.0

When one codex is still taking 50% or more of the top ten lists their is a balance problem.


Conversely I don't think the to hit cap should be changed, if you went to bring back stacking hit mods you have to put in a cap somewhere.

Larger Negative to hit modifiers also favour better BS armies anyway, enjoy even more only playing against Primaris.

Tau loose 66% of their hit rate against a -2 thats a bit much.
Unbuffed Marines loose 50% and Custodes only 40%.

The real issues is Marines with CM only loose 40% of their hits against -2

Negative to hit modifiers is not the way to improve balance as your punishing the worse shooting armies more than the problem child Codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dudeface wrote:

Marin wrote:
It looks like GW team is to much of space marines fanboys to use their little imagination to balance other factions rules. For instance 2CP strat that negate higher STR weapons is not a problem but 2 CP strat that give you -1 to hit is big problem. First example excuse is because its close to the lore and the second is problem because the feel bad regardless of the lore. There is easy fix to modifiers to hit, just make them unable to modify you more than 5+, that way armies with bad BS will not suffer and you will not delete glasscannon army its main defense, just because i cant kill 240 pts flyer with 1 dread so i`m so sad and i`m crying

That makes the problem worse actually. Why bother stacking modifiers beyond -2 at the most? It literally has no effect on 1 full army and half of some others. Majority of armies are no worse off than with a -1, only marines and eldar are slightly bothered by this, but since you've gone from affecting everyone fairly to 75% of the game not being any different, people simply wouldn't bother stacking - to hit since it's wasted 75% of the time.

Because taking hits on 4's to hits on 6's is a 66% reduction in firepower

Against Marines its not even close give them a Chapter master and they still hit at a rate better than 4+.