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 Pyroalchi wrote:
a bit weird that Astra Militarum can still take Crusaders in packs of ten. So should we use the new Sisters of Battle datasheet for the rest of the rules but our own old for the number of models?

Why would you be using the SoB datasheet in the first place? There's nothing in the Guard FAQ to indicat you should do so, as far as I could see.

 Tristanleo wrote:
Everyone else is getting into the minute details, I'm just sat here wondering how, despite having the exact same stats, a chaos lord is worth 6 power level when a captain is worth 5...

Same reason Chaos Marines get +1 to wound for a single CP, while Imperial Fists pay 2 CP with the added restriction of only working against vehicles only, etc..

Or Alpha Legion get's to make a unit untargetable, no questions asked, while Salamanders have to have another 5 man unit in 6" and only that unit screens and only if that unit itself is visible and targetable and a million other hoops, etc.

Stuff isn't equal across books. Simples.

 Tristanleo wrote:
Everyone else is getting into the minute details, I'm just sat here wondering how, despite having the exact same stats, a chaos lord is worth 6 power level when a captain is worth 5...

It's a lore-based rule to represent the logistical demands of lugging around and replacing all those extra spikes.

Just like how the Aggressor's shoot twice ability is a lore-based rule to represent... the fact that standing still doubles the rate of fire of your gun!

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Tristanleo wrote:
Everyone else is getting into the minute details, I'm just sat here wondering how, despite having the exact same stats, a chaos lord is worth 6 power level when a captain is worth 5...

Same reason Chaos Marines get +1 to wound for a single CP, while Imperial Fists pay 2 CP with the added restriction of only working against vehicles only, etc..

Or Alpha Legion get's to make a unit untargetable, no questions asked, while Salamanders have to have another 5 man unit in 6" and only that unit screens and only if that unit itself is visible and targetable and a million other hoops, etc.

Stuff isn't equal across books. Simples.

You're wrong on a few levels there, salamanders also get a balnket +1 to wound strat, likewise renegade chaos marines can't use veterans. So my red corsairs 6pl lord that can't use +1 to wound strats is identical to a salamanders captain who can for 5pl.

tneva82 wrote:

 Gregor Samsa wrote:
What a waste of resources to spend on fiddling with power level rather than repointing. Whoever's power point slide idea PL was sure has gone to war in ramming an odd system into the game regardless of unpopular and or poorly it functions.

Seeing points are　also junk　for balance if you want balance you　use neitker.

And as hard as it might be for you to imagine there are fans for pl. Not everybody takes 40k as some competive game of skill it isnt. Trying to play it as such just shows you don't understand how 40k works

Got in there before I could!

Yeah, even if you like or dislike it, some of us prefer PL, and it's good to see that they're being kept up-to-date (even if I now have to recalculate what all my armies now cost!)

vict0988 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
So We Have Come For You takes precedent over Desperate Breakout and the Kharybdis is back. Good.

Why has stuff that went up in points gone down in pl? Chosen, warp talons, and land raiders all down.

Everything didn't go down though. Fellblades up to 44pl. So 14 more than a baneblade, 9 more than an astreus, and 12 more than a Castellan. Why does gw hate this model?

Isn't it because of weapon options going down in pts? They average out the most expensive and least expensive loadout for a unit so that might have led to it. Better nerf Fellblade might have to become a meme, it's funny because Castellan went down in pts.

It isn't funny if you own one and would like to actually be able to play it. Doesn't gw know how good a 5++ that can be boosted to a 4++ is on a super heavy?

Repointing the game ought to be a vastly larger effort than calculating PL, several people would have to work on pts for a couple of weeks and 100+ playtests would need to be organized in such a manner that every unit is tested a couple of time. As it is CA20 Munitorum Field Manual isn't worth the paper it's been printed on and I doubt what little effort went into this system could have saved the flustercluck that is 9th pts.

Big agreement on that one.

Tristanleo wrote:Everyone else is getting into the minute details, I'm just sat here wondering how, despite having the exact same stats, a chaos lord is worth 6 power level when a captain is worth 5...

Probably the same insane reason that Exalted Champions are more expensive than primaris lieutenants.

Dudeface wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Tristanleo wrote:
Everyone else is getting into the minute details, I'm just sat here wondering how, despite having the exact same stats, a chaos lord is worth 6 power level when a captain is worth 5...

Same reason Chaos Marines get +1 to wound for a single CP, while Imperial Fists pay 2 CP with the added restriction of only working against vehicles only, etc..

Or Alpha Legion get's to make a unit untargetable, no questions asked, while Salamanders have to have another 5 man unit in 6" and only that unit screens and only if that unit itself is visible and targetable and a million other hoops, etc.

Stuff isn't equal across books. Simples.

You're wrong on a few levels there, salamanders also get a balnket +1 to wound strat, likewise renegade chaos marines can't use veterans. So my red corsairs 6pl lord that can't use +1 to wound strats is identical to a salamanders captain who can for 5pl.

Still doesn't change that things are not "matched" across books.

The White Scars 1 CP outflank is flat-out better than the Space Wolves one. The 2 CP "Chapter Master" is insanely more powerful than the 2 CP "Great Harlequin" upgrade. CSM +1 to wound strat might be mirrored by Salamanders, but it's not tied to one specific Chaos Legion (e.g. Word Bearers), even if Renegades cannot take it. Grey Knights Fight-on-Death is 1 CP, while it's 2 CP for most other Marines. GSC "Cloud of Flies" is twice as pricy as the Death Guard version AND only works if you're wholly on a terrain feature, while Death Guard (or Alpha Legion) don't care. Craftworld Buffs / Debuffs like Quicken or Jinx cannot benefit Drukhari or Harlequins, but Death Guard or Black Legion still get benefits from a Thousand Sons Warptime or Death Hex, Etc.., etc.., etc..

Does it make sense that tac marines and intercessors have the exact same PL? It seems weird to me, given the latter has twice the number of wounds. Are the extra weapon options on the tac squad really that powerful, or is this just GW trying to ruin old marines on purpose?

BilboSwaggins wrote:Does it make sense that tac marines and intercessors have the exact same PL? It seems weird to me, given the latter has twice the number of wounds. Are the extra weapon options on the tac squad really that powerful, or is this just GW trying to ruin old marines on purpose?

It's a lore-based rule to represent the logistical demands of lugging around all that extra historical baggage.

Just like how the Eradicator's shoot twice ability is a lore-based rule to represent... the fact that targeting a single enemy administrative unit doubles the rate of fire of your gun!

BilboSwaggins wrote:
Does it make sense that tac marines and intercessors have the exact same PL? It seems weird to me, given the latter has twice the number of wounds. Are the extra weapon options on the tac squad really that powerful, or is this just GW trying to ruin old marines on purpose?

That just reflects their points cost including war gear.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Tristanleo wrote:
Everyone else is getting into the minute details, I'm just sat here wondering how, despite having the exact same stats, a chaos lord is worth 6 power level when a captain is worth 5...

Same reason Chaos Marines get +1 to wound for a single CP, while Imperial Fists pay 2 CP with the added restriction of only working against vehicles only, etc..

Or Alpha Legion get's to make a unit untargetable, no questions asked, while Salamanders have to have another 5 man unit in 6" and only that unit screens and only if that unit itself is visible and targetable and a million other hoops, etc.

Stuff isn't equal across books. Simples.

You're wrong on a few levels there, salamanders also get a balnket +1 to wound strat, likewise renegade chaos marines can't use veterans. So my red corsairs 6pl lord that can't use +1 to wound strats is identical to a salamanders captain who can for 5pl.

Still doesn't change that things are not "matched" across books.

The White Scars 1 CP outflank is flat-out better than the Space Wolves one. The 2 CP "Chapter Master" is insanely more powerful than the 2 CP "Great Harlequin" upgrade. CSM +1 to wound strat might be mirrored by Salamanders, but it's not tied to one specific Chaos Legion (e.g. Word Bearers), even if Renegades cannot take it. Grey Knights Fight-on-Death is 1 CP, while it's 2 CP for most other Marines. GSC "Cloud of Flies" is twice as pricy as the Death Guard version AND only works if you're wholly on a terrain feature, while Death Guard (or Alpha Legion) don't care. Craftworld Buffs / Debuffs like Quicken or Jinx cannot benefit Drukhari or Harlequins, but Death Guard or Black Legion still get benefits from a Thousand Sons Warptime or Death Hex, Etc.., etc.., etc..

There is no reason a chaos lord should be more than a captain though, objectively speaking. There is no reason a chaos lord is worth more in a chaos marines army than a captain is in a marines army.

It being consistently poorly represented over time doesn't excuse poor practice.

 Tristanleo wrote:
Everyone else is getting into the minute details, I'm just sat here wondering how, despite having the exact same stats, a chaos lord is worth 6 power level when a captain is worth 5...

That's a damn good question.

BilboSwaggins wrote:
Does it make sense that tac marines and intercessors have the exact same PL? It seems weird to me, given the latter has twice the number of wounds. Are the extra weapon options on the tac squad really that powerful, or is this just GW trying to ruin old marines on purpose?

The extra weapons are absolutely that powerful. Tac Marines can be better at killing Primaris Marines than Primaris are.

I'm slightly p***ed of that they removed the Gorgon again. Just when Forgeworld brought the awesome model back.

JNAProductions wrote:

 Tristanleo wrote:
Everyone else is getting into the minute details, I'm just sat here wondering how, despite having the exact same stats, a chaos lord is worth 6 power level when a captain is worth 5...

That's a damn good question.

The Spike Tax continues.

Pyroalchi wrote:I'm slightly p***ed of that they removed the Gorgon again. Just when Forgeworld brought the awesome model back.

If they're still selling the model then they probably just forgot about it like they did the Kharybdis. The one thing gw is consistent about is screwing up.

Edit:
All Contemptors are the same at 9PL, same as points. That makes total sense. Why are loyalist Land Raider Achilles 17PL but the Hellforged Achilles is 20PL? Excellent work just like the ca points "rebalance".

Holy crap. Stompas are 46PL, so even more than a Fellblade. Do any Ork players want to start a support group for owners of models gw hates?

I thought tacticals fit well at 4 compared to their more robust brethren.

Invictor warsuit has taken a big hike? Shame, I am just painting mine!

Im really enjoying the PL drops for my Necrons!
I hope we get the FW stuff soon.

 Blndmage wrote:
Im really enjoying the PL drops for my Necrons!
I hope we get the FW stuff soon.

It had better be pretty interesting to explain this and the points changes in ca 2020. Somehow I doubt it will be.

Unfortunately it looks like PL is as Unbalanced as Points for 9th edition. Well oh well only 15 months at most before CA 2021 is released and we can all see what insanity GW is trying to sell.

So... new look out sir... Looks like harlequins are proper fethed, doesn't it.

Screening our characters with our transports was like 80% of what we did. We don't HAVE any units with 10 or more wounds. Now there are only 2 units in the whole codex that can screen, and neither of them are going to be near shadowseers, death jesters, or solitaires.

yukishiro1 wrote:

tulun wrote:

Mozzamanx wrote:
Goodbye Warboss on Bike

Yeah, this is massive. Warboss on Bike might be our best HQ in 9th, and it's no longer legal.

Did you miss the memo? Only Space Marines get bike characters these days.

Marines lost a LARGE number of bike characters. Libby's chappies, apocatharies, company ancients, company champions, don't act like Marines didn't get his by the old "no model, rules are legends" shift. Marines didn't lose bike captains because a bike captain model exists.
but hey, don't let the facts get in the way of your attacks on Marines

BrianDavion wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:

tulun wrote:

Mozzamanx wrote:
Goodbye Warboss on Bike

Yeah, this is massive. Warboss on Bike might be our best HQ in 9th, and it's no longer legal.

Did you miss the memo? Only Space Marines get bike characters these days.

Marines lost a LARGE number of bike characters. Libby's chappies, apocatharies, company ancients, company champions, don't act like Marines didn't get his by the old "no model, rules are legends" shift. Marines didn't lose bike captains because a bike captain model exists.
but hey, don't let the facts get in the way of your attacks on Marines

Erm - you want to back up that "SM Captain on Bike" exists claim, Brian, assuming we're talking generic SM here? I'm not seeing it on the GW webstore, and the only generic "SM character on bike" I recall getting released since the plastic Bike came out was the Chaplain on bike.

WS have a Khan on a Bike model, but from memory that has a specific datasheet in the WS supplement.

Even the DA don't have a "Master on Bike" model listed, mainly because Sammael has either a jetbike or a custom land speeder to be riding.

 Dysartes wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:

tulun wrote:

Mozzamanx wrote:
Goodbye Warboss on Bike

Yeah, this is massive. Warboss on Bike might be our best HQ in 9th, and it's no longer legal.

Did you miss the memo? Only Space Marines get bike characters these days.

Marines lost a LARGE number of bike characters. Libby's chappies, apocatharies, company ancients, company champions, don't act like Marines didn't get his by the old "no model, rules are legends" shift. Marines didn't lose bike captains because a bike captain model exists.
but hey, don't let the facts get in the way of your attacks on Marines

Erm - you want to back up that "SM Captain on Bike" exists claim, Brian, assuming we're talking generic SM here? I'm not seeing it on the GW webstore, and the only generic "SM character on bike" I recall getting released since the plastic Bike came out was the Chaplain on bike.

WS have a Khan on a Bike model, but from memory that has a specific datasheet in the WS supplement.

Even the DA don't have a "Master on Bike" model listed, mainly because Sammael has either a jetbike or a custom land speeder to be riding.

pretty sure legends came out before the codex and it's supplements, and thus GW counted the WS bike captain as a generic bike captain.

Gw really wants to kill faction terrain. Most have junk rules and now deploying them got harder. Sister one takes nearly 11"x11" no terrain area. Good luck. Good thing never got around buying 2nd. Not playing at 55 pts disadvantage is hard enough with 1 and 110 pts behind would be rough

Does this mean if my flyer falls below ten wounds it no longer character protects my guy?

This is VERY important to my army, so I ain't asking to stir any pots.

Deathwatch Veterans are still 2PL/model because obviously they're never taken without thunderhammer+combi-weapon. Thbbbt.

It annoys me that PL is supposed to encourage fluffy gameplay, and yet 10 Intercessors or 10 Bolter Marines in a Tac squad both cost 10PL but are 200 points and 150 points respectively.

Now, I want to play Crusade using Firstborn Marines using no upgrades except a missile launcher for 165 points, but unless I want to deliberately penalise myself 17.5% compared to my Primaris friend, I pretty much have to max out the weaponry in my Tac squad. And no, it doesn't all even out in the end. The PL seem to be based on maxed out squads rather than typical squads. Just because I want to play narrative, doesn't mean I want to deliberately be underpowered.

Seriously, I HATE PL and I hate that they do the opposite of what they are supposedly meant to. And I hate the lack of maths ability amongst most people that even made this necessary.

Dukeofstuff wrote:
Does this mean if my flyer falls below ten wounds it no longer character protects my guy?

This is VERY important to my army, so I ain't asking to stir any pots.

Your flyer is still a 12-wound model, even if it's currently on 1 wound because it's been shot a lot.

Otherwise, characters that have more than 10 wounds, would suddenly become untargetable when they drop to 9 wounds.

Niiru wrote:

Dukeofstuff wrote:
Does this mean if my flyer falls below ten wounds it no longer character protects my guy?

This is VERY important to my army, so I ain't asking to stir any pots.

Your flyer is still a 12-wound model, even if it's currently on 1 wound because it's been shot a lot.

Otherwise, characters that have more than 10 wounds, would suddenly become untargetable when they drop to 9 wounds.

They've gotten a little better about clarity of wording on this issue; the rule does specify that it applies to models with a "wounds characteristic of 10 or more" (emphasis added).

 Fifty wrote:
It annoys me that PL is supposed to encourage fluffy gameplay, and yet 10 Intercessors or 10 Bolter Marines in a Tac squad both cost 10PL but are 200 points and 150 points respectively.

Now, I want to play Crusade using Firstborn Marines using no upgrades except a missile launcher for 165 points, but unless I want to deliberately penalise myself 17.5% compared to my Primaris friend, I pretty much have to max out the weaponry in my Tac squad. And no, it doesn't all even out in the end. The PL seem to be based on maxed out squads rather than typical squads. Just because I want to play narrative, doesn't mean I want to deliberately be underpowered.

I hate to break it to you, but a fluffy 10-man Tactical Squad will have a special and a heavy weapon. Depending on your choice of weapons, that puts you between 165 (Flamer and Heavy Bolter) and 180 points (Plasma Gun and Multi-melta). Slap a few special weapons on your Sarge and you are closing in on 200 points. Still to be fair, they should probably be more like 8 CP for a 10-man squad. It's weapons for the Sarge that inflate the value of the 5 man squad to be closer to Intercessor points.