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Did we already see the new immortals datasheets? If those things went to 2W then we can safely assume that wounds are getting increased around the board.

Spoletta wrote:
Did we already see the new immortals datasheets? If those things went to 2W then we can safely assume that wounds are getting increased around the board.

We saw Lychguard I believe. And of course Warriors.

The cynic in me also sees this as GW having finally recouped enough costs from the Primaris moulds that they can get back to promoting oldmarines again. If everyone has already stocked up on Primaris, just buff everything else to have it sell more again?

Not that I'd be complaining, I prefer oldmarines. Already the fact that terminators are viable again makes me happy.

has this been posted



2 wounds for old marnies
4 dmg TH
Powerfists and powerswords to 2 damage

It's getting a bit out of hand here. ATM wondering how other codexes are gonna change to be able to compete..

That confirms my theory that all veteran marines will get +1 wound, so the terminators are 2 wounds +1 from armour.

It will be interesting to see how this translates to other armies...

 Hellebore wrote:
That confirms my theory that all veteran marines will get +1 wound, so the terminators are 2 wounds +1 from armour.

It will be interesting to see how this translates to other armies...

I think normal mini marines will get 2 wounds too

This could end up a bigger shake up than expected depending what happens elsewhere, it does suggest that the marine codex will look radically different to what is out now. The points will almost have to change across the board.

Dudeface wrote:
This could end up a bigger shake up than expected depending what happens elsewhere, it does suggest that the marine codex will look radically different to what is out now. The points will almost have to change across the board.

Far be it from me to complain that lethality is going down, that's definitely a good thing. But holy heck how are W1 infantry going to compete with this stuff? Are Eldar Guardians going to W2? Is that why they're twice as expensive as a guardsmen despite having an identical defensive statline ATM?

Dudeface wrote:
This could end up a bigger shake up than expected depending what happens elsewhere, it does suggest that the marine codex will look radically different to what is out now. The points will almost have to change across the board.

The amount of boosts marines are getting they will need a significant point hike which I don't see happening.

With all these changes and boosts I am getting serious marine fatigue.

 Eldarsif wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
This could end up a bigger shake up than expected depending what happens elsewhere, it does suggest that the marine codex will look radically different to what is out now. The points will almost have to change across the board.

The amount of boosts marines are getting they will need a significant point hike which I don't see happening.

With all these changes and boosts I am getting serious marine fatigue.

MEQ going from W1 to W2 is a more significant change than...basically the whole edition drop. at this point, they HAVE to make some kind of structural change to the whole game's statlines when Codex Marines comes out. Or else Marines are going to be bigger badder custodes and will need to have the prices to match.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
This could end up a bigger shake up than expected depending what happens elsewhere, it does suggest that the marine codex will look radically different to what is out now. The points will almost have to change across the board.

The amount of boosts marines are getting they will need a significant point hike which I don't see happening.

With all these changes and boosts I am getting serious marine fatigue.

MEQ going from W1 to W2 is a more significant change than...basically the whole edition drop. at this point, they HAVE to make some kind of structural change to the whole game's statlines when Codex Marines comes out. Or else Marines are going to be bigger badder custodes and will need to have the prices to match.

This, if they remove some special rules or tone down doctrines on marines, I can see intercessors staying where they are points wise but tacs need to be clawing behind them by a point or so.

More stuff:

-Astartes Chainswords confirmed on everyone not just intercessors.

-Power Axe now +2S -2AP 1d

-Lightning Claw appears unchanged

-Plasma, Grav unchanged

Strap in, buckle up and look to the skies folks. The stars are aligning in one of those mysterious positions, foretelling another rare year of space marine supremacy!

To all non Ultramarines, Space Wolves, Imperial Fists, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Black Templars and other various high tech individuals, please take a seat and wait for your turn at the paperback reader. I'm sure you'll get yours eventually! Unless of course you're Tyranids, Eldar or Orks. Everyone knows they don't sell, so don't be silly about it.

 nordsturmking wrote:
has this been posted

Spoiler:

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2 wounds for old marnies
4 dmg TH
Powerfists and powerswords to 2 damage

It's getting a bit out of hand here. ATM wondering how other codexes are gonna change to be able to compete..

This pretty much confirms it.
Damage and wounds going up all over the place.

The real question now is if GW will issue really fast an update to all profiles. or the marines will play between themselves until all factions are updated.

 nordsturmking wrote:
Powerfists and powerswords to 2 damage

I think you're getting confused with the relic blade. Power swords are still D1.

Seems everything's getting more lethal, and veteran Marine units are getting extra wounds. Can't say I like it. I'd much rather have had lethality reduced and everything cost more points to increase granularity instead of this, and I certainly hope this isn't exclusive to Marines.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 nordsturmking wrote:
Powerfists and powerswords to 2 damage

I think you're getting confused with the relic blade. Power swords are still D1.

Seems everything's getting more lethal, and veteran Marine units are getting extra wounds. Can't say I like it. I'd much rather have had lethality reduced and everything cost more points to increase granularity instead of this, and I certainly hope this isn't exclusive to Marines.

It seems it is partially, the necron elite infantry hasn't moved up to 3 wounds so unless new reanimation protocols pack a meaningful change, they're no more survivable despite their marine equivalents getting a wound.

8W attack bikes make a bit more sense now.

Did we see any of the old vehicle datasheets? The stalker increased in wounds. Any other examples?

I wonder what this move to reduce lethality means for 'glass cannon' factions/armies.

 harlokin wrote:
I wonder what this move to reduce lethality means for 'glass cannon' factions/armies.

I think the logical is a radical increase in damage output ironically. The extra damage is wasted on other 1 wound glass cannon units, but has more bite on the tougher elite factions. If they ditch the ap off doctrines that'll help.

So as a counter to this, I hope that Eldar get more killy because they should not be getting more durable (unless maybe Aspects). But to compete, they will have to be far more efficient at killing 2W marines because some of the units struggle to kill 1W marines currently.
The cynic in me, however, sees that the TT guys invested in adding Banshees to their army and have been involved in playtesting codexes (not basic rules). Might see the girls be better down the road. Surely hope so.

 harlokin wrote:
I wonder what this move to reduce lethality means for 'glass cannon' factions/armies.

They're only reducing lethality for marines everyone else has to deal with d6+2 damage melta and D4 thunderhammers with their current defensive profiles because feth you for not buying marines.

C'mon 2W Noise Marines...

Dudeface wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
I wonder what this move to reduce lethality means for 'glass cannon' factions/armies.

I think the logical is a radical increase in damage output ironically. The extra damage is wasted on other 1 wound glass cannon units, but has more bite on the tougher elite factions. If they ditch the ap off doctrines that'll help.

We already know they're keeping super doctrines so they absolutely need to ditch Angels of death entirely and move doctrines to something like 'reroll hit rolls of 1 for X weapon type' for this to not become '30k, but with some NPCs you can take in fluff games.'

 bullyboy wrote:
So as a counter to this, I hope that Eldar get more killy because they should not be getting more durable (unless maybe Aspects). But to compete, they will have to be far more efficient at killing 2W marines because some of the units struggle to kill 1W marines currently.
The cynic in me, however, sees that the TT guys invested in adding Banshees to their army and have been involved in playtesting codexes (not basic rules). Might see the girls be better down the road. Surely hope so.

Quite cunning....invest in whatever Tabletop Tactics are adding to their armies ..... not seen Lawrence use Incubi yet

ERJAK wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
I wonder what this move to reduce lethality means for 'glass cannon' factions/armies.

I think the logical is a radical increase in damage output ironically. The extra damage is wasted on other 1 wound glass cannon units, but has more bite on the tougher elite factions. If they ditch the ap off doctrines that'll help.

We already know they're keeping super doctrines so they absolutely need to ditch Angels of death entirely and move doctrines to something like 'reroll hit rolls of 1 for X weapon type' for this to not become '30k, but with some NPCs you can take in fluff games.'

Devastator: Reroll 1s with Heavy Weapons if you didn't move

Tactical: Rapid Fire weapons can still be fired if you advanced (not the stupid "become assault 1" rule some factions get, just be fired normally)

Assault: Same as current.

Ditch stupid static gunline bolter discipline, give CSM a doctrine-equivalent no soup thing, redesign CSM chapter tactics and give them to their vehicles, and that's a fine and dandy marine update pass. +durability, -lethality, -static gunline uninteractive stupidity.

ERJAK wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
I wonder what this move to reduce lethality means for 'glass cannon' factions/armies.

They're only reducing lethality for marines everyone else has to deal with d6+2 damage melta and D4 thunderhammers with their current defensive profiles because feth you for not buying marines.

Yeah because your gaunts/boyz w/e would be surviving melta shots and thunder hammers now would they? Same way a 2 wound marine dies to a thunder hammer or melta just as easily as they did before. They put the wounds up to compensate slightly on the larger units we've seen for Necrons so dial back the hyperbole for now.

*laughs in sad Kabalite*

This is going to be a weird edition...

Dudeface wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
I wonder what this move to reduce lethality means for 'glass cannon' factions/armies.

They're only reducing lethality for marines everyone else has to deal with d6+2 damage melta and D4 thunderhammers with their current defensive profiles because feth you for not buying marines.

Yeah because your gaunts/boyz w/e would be surviving melta shots and thunder hammers now would they? Same way a 2 wound marine dies to a thunder hammer or melta just as easily as they did before. They put the wounds up to compensate slightly on the larger units we've seen for Necrons so dial back the hyperbole for now.

....Are you...now pretending that the new meltas and thunderhammers will be used against gaunts? Not, say, used to two-shot ork buggies or tau suits or eldar wraiths?

Necron lychguard and Praetorians are keeping the same defensive statline. this means they just got easier to kill with:

-Powerfists
-Chainswords
-Heavy Bolters
-Power Swords
-Power Axes

All those weapons that got their damage upped, presumably to be able to continue to work as anti-elite weaponry vs the increased marine statlines.

This is a valid concern to raise, dude...

the_scotsman wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
I wonder what this move to reduce lethality means for 'glass cannon' factions/armies.

They're only reducing lethality for marines everyone else has to deal with d6+2 damage melta and D4 thunderhammers with their current defensive profiles because feth you for not buying marines.

Yeah because your gaunts/boyz w/e would be surviving melta shots and thunder hammers now would they? Same way a 2 wound marine dies to a thunder hammer or melta just as easily as they did before. They put the wounds up to compensate slightly on the larger units we've seen for Necrons so dial back the hyperbole for now.

....Are you...now pretending that the new meltas and thunderhammers will be used against gaunts? Not, say, used to two-shot ork buggies or tau suits or eldar wraiths?

Of course they will, but the marginal targets where the changes will impact are so narrow or are in the case of necrons being adapted to fit. More importantly the marines boost in durability ERJAK was complaining about is marines infantry getting more wounds, the direct comparison is if boyz etc went to 2 wounds, ERJAK then used high damage weaponry as the boogey man the 1 wound infantry have to be scared of.

Further to your revised post I do agree that previous 2 wound infantry need to be slightly more worried by a potential heavy bolter change, but in the case of crons we're pinning a lot of hopes on the RP changes.

I'm kind of okay with this but marines are going to need to get a points jump or other armies are going to need some big boosts to compete. If Necrons isn't on par with Marines (and this basically hinges on Reanimation at this point) I'm going to sit this edition out despite having multiple other armies.