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 Sim-Life wrote:
I'm kind of okay with this but marines are going to need to get a points jump or other armies are going to need some big boosts to compete.

Pretty much this. If changes like these continue to roll out, we're looking at geometric growth on the capabilities of Marines, and that must be countered by immediate alterations or we're going to have another Iron Hands situation, but so much worse.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
I'm kind of okay with this but marines are going to need to get a points jump or other armies are going to need some big boosts to compete.

Pretty much this. If changes like these continue to roll out, we're looking at geometric growth on the capabilities of Marines, and that must be countered by immediate alterations or we're going to have another Iron Hands situation, but so much worse.

I think realistic best case scenario is GK & CSM get a FAQ to pull the unit profiles to match and then a global FAQ for all weapons to match where possible in line with current points. Worst case it will literally be book by book again.

I am ecstatic that Marines are getting more wounds and more lethal melee weapons. It will make them feel like actual super human beat sticks.

However, this NEEDS to be accompanied by matching buffs for Chaos Marines and a bit more lethality in Xenos options. We'll see if the Necron codex is a match for Marines. If it's significantly lackluster in comparison, that doesn't bode well.
And I really hope they don't go overboard in a year or so with a super powered Eldar codex like they did in 7th just to compensate

I'm actually hoping that regular Tac Marines stay at 1W, however it would be neat if Tac Sgts became 2W, just like Eldar Exarchs.
I can also see Devs becoming 2W (or maybe T5 like Havocs) and regular Bikes become 3W

 Eonfuzz wrote:
I'm sure you'll get yours eventually! Unless of course you're Tyranids, Eldar or Orks. Everyone knows they don't sell, so don't be silly about it.

Yeah I'm sure Sisters will get theirs soon. Very soon. Very very soon. End of edition soon. Maybe end of future edition?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
I'm sure you'll get yours eventually! Unless of course you're Tyranids, Eldar or Orks. Everyone knows they don't sell, so don't be silly about it.

Yeah I'm sure Sisters will get theirs soon. Very soon. Very very soon. End of edition soon. Maybe end of future edition?

First codex of 10th for sure.

I wonder whether their plan hinges on getting that accursed army builder out. They could update the whole product line at once and just point at the app while the paper codexes continue at their glacial tempo...

Ah, well, who am I kidding...

What I'm betting: every Firstborn gets 2W, and every heavy/elite style infantry gets a similar boost like Lychguards.

However it's very dumb to amp up wounds and amp up damage at the same time. D4 Thunder Hammers ? Nice, so if Custodes gets boosted to 4W they'll still get one-shot. If they don't get boosted then Allarus and Bikes get one-shot instead.

Sincerely hope they'll change the points QUICKLY when all these changes go live and that we don't have to go through a period of 15 pts SM with 2W while my Skitarii are 10 pts and vastly inferior

 Aaranis wrote:
What I'm betting: every Firstborn gets 2W, and every heavy/elite style infantry gets a similar boost like Lychguards.

However it's very dumb to amp up wounds and amp up damage at the same time. D4 Thunder Hammers ? Nice, so if Custodes gets boosted to 4W they'll still get one-shot. If they don't get boosted then Allarus and Bikes get one-shot instead.

Sincerely hope they'll change the points QUICKLY when all these changes go live and that we don't have to go through a period of 15 pts SM with 2W while my Skitarii are 10 pts and vastly inferior

The changes come with a new codex, so they definitely will have points revisions.

 Aaranis wrote:
What I'm betting: every Firstborn gets 2W, and every heavy/elite style infantry gets a similar boost like Lychguards.

However it's very dumb to amp up wounds and amp up damage at the same time. D4 Thunder Hammers ? Nice, so if Custodes gets boosted to 4W they'll still get one-shot. If they don't get boosted then Allarus and Bikes get one-shot instead.

Sincerely hope they'll change the points QUICKLY when all these changes go live and that we don't have to go through a period of 15 pts SM with 2W while my Skitarii are 10 pts and vastly inferior

...You mean like Lychguards aren't? We already have the new datasheet for Lychguards. This isn't a thing. They're the exact same with +1 Attack in melee.

 Aaranis wrote:
What I'm betting: every Firstborn gets 2W, and every heavy/elite style infantry gets a similar boost like Lychguards.

However it's very dumb to amp up wounds and amp up damage at the same time. D4 Thunder Hammers ? Nice, so if Custodes gets boosted to 4W they'll still get one-shot. If they don't get boosted then Allarus and Bikes get one-shot instead.

Sincerely hope they'll change the points QUICKLY when all these changes go live and that we don't have to go through a period of 15 pts SM with 2W while my Skitarii are 10 pts and vastly inferior

They're upping wounds and upping melee damage while ranged damage stays mostly the same.

Makes assault necessary to displace things, while ranged fire is no longer about annihilating units off the board, but rather softening them up for your assault troops.

 Asmodai wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
What I'm betting: every Firstborn gets 2W, and every heavy/elite style infantry gets a similar boost like Lychguards.

However it's very dumb to amp up wounds and amp up damage at the same time. D4 Thunder Hammers ? Nice, so if Custodes gets boosted to 4W they'll still get one-shot. If they don't get boosted then Allarus and Bikes get one-shot instead.

Sincerely hope they'll change the points QUICKLY when all these changes go live and that we don't have to go through a period of 15 pts SM with 2W while my Skitarii are 10 pts and vastly inferior

They're upping wounds and upping melee damage while ranged damage stays mostly the same.

Makes assault necessary to displace things, while ranged fire is no longer about annihilating units off the board, but rather softening them up for your assault troops.

This is also not a thing that we're seeing.

Across the new necron and marine datasheets ranged damage has increased, particularly in the dedicated anti-tank side of things.

We saw ranged weapon damage increases on:

-Triarch stalker weapons
-invictor and new Turret Autocannon weapons
-heavy bolters
-heavy destroyer (previously was a lascannon-equivalent is now damage 3d3)

We also, again, DID NOT see a durability increase for necron elite units.All these heavy bolters with D2 and autocannons with AP-2 and 33% more shots and meltas with minimum damage 3 and heavy destroyers with minimum damage 3 will be killing non-marine elites faster than before, not slower.

You point *seems* to hold for *some* anti light infantry weapons...but not stuff like the OGC, which got a 25% boost to the number of shots it put out, or the heavy flamer, which is now 12" range meaning it's available straight out of deep strike for stuff like terminators.

 Aaranis wrote:
However it's very dumb to amp up wounds and amp up damage at the same time.

I disagree. Sure if EVERYTHING goes up it's a net wash, but if only SOME things go up, it creates a far more varied game. It also makes far more use of the Damage stat, which is still a new concept for 40k. It used to be even Lascannons were 1D. So everything HAD to have 1W unless it was a Monster or Vehicle.
Now we can explore a whole breadth of 2-3W models and multi Damage weapons to match.

It the same reason points went up, so we didn't have so many units sitting at the extremes of cheap or expensive. There's now far more 'middle ground' units now.

But I will agree that sufficient counters need to exist or else Marines are going to be top tier for a while.
And not just 8th ed kind of top tier in which a few other armies can still give them a run, but like 7th ed Eldar heights of top tier in which the other 3 top tiers at the time couldn't dethrone Eldar until the whole edition had to be rebooted.

It's still not guaranteed that all SM infantry will start with 2W, so far only veterans have leaked to get 2W while wearing terminator armour, they get a total of 3W. Tactical marines could (probably?) still stay at 1W...

 Waking Dreamer wrote:
It's still not guaranteed that all SM infantry will start with 2W, so far only veterans have leaked to get 2W while wearing terminator armour, they get a total of 3W. Tactical marines could (probably?) still stay at 1W...

I'd be happy with that, but like I posted in the N&R thread it leaves chaos marines in a weird spot since in theory they're all veterans apart from the renegades. If all basic CSM troops are renegades then it makes little sense for them to appear in a legion list.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Terminators were already good in 9th though. Their points finally went down so far compared to other stuff that they are now competitively priced. If they add 1W to them without kicking up the points, they'll be seriously underpriced.

They're not grossly far off.

42 points for assault.
36 for regular.

An bolter aggressor is 45.

Presume you didn't have to buy the fragstorm launcher and terminators were W3. That's makes Aggressors 4 points more for +1T, +1A, +2shots, -1sv, +run and gun, -deepstrike, +double shoot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marshal Loss wrote:
C'mon 2W Noise Marines...

Yea we had the cult marine 2W rumors as well. So seems like that was just a very early rumor and this stuff has been in the pipeline for a long time.

the_scotsman wrote:
We also, again, DID NOT see a durability increase for necron elite units.All these heavy bolters with D2 and autocannons with AP-2 and 33% more shots and meltas with minimum damage 3 and heavy destroyers with minimum damage 3 will be killing non-marine elites faster than before, not slower.

You point *seems* to hold for *some* anti light infantry weapons...but not stuff like the OGC, which got a 25% boost to the number of shots it put out, or the heavy flamer, which is now 12" range meaning it's available straight out of deep strike for stuff like terminators.

Also a points issue. The Heavy Lokhust is a lot more points than a heavy destroyer. We really need the full rules - but it might not be much of an upgrade. And its a clear downgrade in terms of toughness/wounds per point.

On Lychguard and Praetorians - I just think people saw them so rarely many didn't realise they already had 2 wounds.

So what is the source for all of this stuff? What are the odds we're being trolled by a supremely skilled photoshop guru?

 Daedalus81 wrote:
So what is the source for all of this stuff? What are the odds we're being trolled by a supremely skilled photoshop guru?

Instruction booklets in kit recently ordered/supplied by GW with 9th ed packaging. It is possible it's a trolling method but it's a lot of effort to render the models weapons etc then mock up a booklet and boxart which means it's pretty unlikely overall imo.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
So what is the source for all of this stuff? What are the odds we're being trolled by a supremely skilled photoshop guru?

Dubious screenshots supposedly from repackages.

Tbh, the fact GW hasn't immediately gone "haha silly potato camera people, here are the new rules proving Marines are total 150% better than ever" makes me vaguely hope its all a wind up.

Tyel wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
So what is the source for all of this stuff? What are the odds we're being trolled by a supremely skilled photoshop guru?

Dubious screenshots supposedly from repackages.

Tbh, the fact GW hasn't immediately gone "haha silly potato camera people, here are the new rules proving Marines are total 150% better than ever" makes me vaguely hope its all a wind up.

Or a crafty ploy by GW for people to buy boxes just to get the datasheet and see what's coming.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Terminators were already good in 9th though. Their points finally went down so far compared to other stuff that they are now competitively priced. If they add 1W to them without kicking up the points, they'll be seriously underpriced.

They're not grossly far off.

42 points for assault.
36 for regular.

An bolter aggressor is 45.

Presume you didn't have to buy the fragstorm launcher and terminators were W3. That's makes Aggressors 4 points more for +1T, +1A, +2shots, -1sv, +run and gun, -deepstrike, +double shoot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marshal Loss wrote:
C'mon 2W Noise Marines...

Yea we had the cult marine 2W rumors as well. So seems like that was just a very early rumor and this stuff has been in the pipeline for a long time.

I'm sorry 4pts for +1T +1A +2 shots, assault everything and ignore the move and shoot penalty and the ability to fire twice if you stand still (or use a particular superdoctrine lololol we totes balanced around these)?

Seems like a BIT of a discount bundle, not sure of any other faction analogues that get that kind of value out of 4pts. My genestealer cultists pay 10pts for a squad of 10 GEQ to reroll hits of 1 in melee.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
What I'm betting: every Firstborn gets 2W, and every heavy/elite style infantry gets a similar boost like Lychguards.

However it's very dumb to amp up wounds and amp up damage at the same time. D4 Thunder Hammers ? Nice, so if Custodes gets boosted to 4W they'll still get one-shot. If they don't get boosted then Allarus and Bikes get one-shot instead.

Sincerely hope they'll change the points QUICKLY when all these changes go live and that we don't have to go through a period of 15 pts SM with 2W while my Skitarii are 10 pts and vastly inferior

...You mean like Lychguards aren't? We already have the new datasheet for Lychguards. This isn't a thing. They're the exact same with +1 Attack in melee.

Uh, I was sure I saw a picture of a datasheet with Praetorians or Lychguards or something going up to 2W, as well as people confirming it. Sorry if that's not the case.

Asmodai wrote:They're upping wounds and upping melee damage while ranged damage stays mostly the same.

Makes assault necessary to displace things, while ranged fire is no longer about annihilating units off the board, but rather softening them up for your assault troops.

Unsure about that, multi-melta going up and another few weapons we've seen on the Warsuit changing I don't think they're aiming at just boosting CC.

 Aaranis wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
What I'm betting: every Firstborn gets 2W, and every heavy/elite style infantry gets a similar boost like Lychguards.

However it's very dumb to amp up wounds and amp up damage at the same time. D4 Thunder Hammers ? Nice, so if Custodes gets boosted to 4W they'll still get one-shot. If they don't get boosted then Allarus and Bikes get one-shot instead.

Sincerely hope they'll change the points QUICKLY when all these changes go live and that we don't have to go through a period of 15 pts SM with 2W while my Skitarii are 10 pts and vastly inferior

...You mean like Lychguards aren't? We already have the new datasheet for Lychguards. This isn't a thing. They're the exact same with +1 Attack in melee.

Uh, I was sure I saw a picture of a datasheet with Praetorians or Lychguards or something going up to 2W, as well as people confirming it. Sorry if that's not the case.

Asmodai wrote:They're upping wounds and upping melee damage while ranged damage stays mostly the same.

Makes assault necessary to displace things, while ranged fire is no longer about annihilating units off the board, but rather softening them up for your assault troops.

Unsure about that, multi-melta going up and another few weapons we've seen on the Warsuit changing I don't think they're aiming at just boosting CC.

A few anti tank weapons are getting a damage boost, but most of the anti infantry weapons are being kept the same.
The plasma and the grav for example look to be the same, and the bolters also didn't change.

By the way, pretorians and Lichguards have always been 2 wounds.

Tyel wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
So what is the source for all of this stuff? What are the odds we're being trolled by a supremely skilled photoshop guru?

Dubious screenshots supposedly from repackages.

Tbh, the fact GW hasn't immediately gone "haha silly potato camera people, here are the new rules proving Marines are total 150% better than ever" makes me vaguely hope its all a wind up.

source: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/365846-9e-mass-repackaging/

the_scotsman wrote:


I'm sorry 4pts for +1T +1A +2 shots, assault everything and ignore the move and shoot penalty and the ability to fire twice if you stand still (or use a particular superdoctrine lololol we totes balanced around these)?

Seems like a BIT of a discount bundle, not sure of any other faction analogues that get that kind of value out of 4pts. My genestealer cultists pay 10pts for a squad of 10 GEQ to reroll hits of 1 in melee.

I don't expect them to stay as is, but they're not going to be terribly different in the codex I presume.

I really do wonder if doctrines will survive all these changes in tact.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

I really do wonder if doctrines will survive all these changes in tact.

At this point I really hope not. We can already guess that Doctrines are still going to be a thing, because the exist 6 Marine supplements will still be compatible with the new Marine codex and those supplements have loads of rules referencing Doctrines.

What could offset those, however is if the new codex doesn't give the AP bonus any longer.
They could easily rework Doctrines to JUST give the Chapter specific bonus, plus maybe a handful of generic Tac/Assault/Dev bonuses for "build your own" Chapters. Of which the AP bonus could be an example.

So if I choose Salamanders or a Successor, I'll only get the +1 to wound with flamer/melts bonus while Tactical Doc is active, but not the AP bonus.
But if I am my own chapter that does not claim ties with an existing chapter, I could choose the AP bonus for either Tac/Assault/Dev as my "super Doctrine"

That would cut down on the bloat while still keeping the flavour. It would also make things like the AP-2 Autocannons and AP-1 chainswords more relevant as your need the better AP on the weapon if the Doctrines no longer grant it.

-

Dudeface wrote:
source: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/365846-9e-mass-repackaging/

I mean I'm not denying the repackaging is taking place.
Or even that people have opened them up and got these sheets. Its after all most likely correct.
But I want to believe.

It's only a matter of time before someone opens that repackaged Tac squad and we find out if classic Marines are getting 2W

 Galef wrote:
It's only a matter of time before someone opens that repackaged Tac squad and we find out if classic Marines are getting 2W

For selfish reasons I hope they are, but admit for balance/varied armies it might be better if they don't. It's the big one for sure though, although I get a feeling if they do scouts might still be 1w.

Also, with the fact that these changes are in the new boxes, I guess it means that we'll have those rules as soon as they restock their stores ? I don't believe they'll wait for the new codices to start selling these new boxes. So does that mean we'll soon have a quantum state of the game where we have Terminators that have both 2W and 3W or what ? Will people have to play with the codex rules until the new codex comes out and they're finally allowed to use the new profile ? Or will we have Firstborn SM at 2W for 15 pts until the new codex ?

Seriously with all these changes I feel like nothing makes sense and GW is changing things in all directions at once which is REALLY confusing