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 Aaranis wrote:
Or will we have Firstborn SM at 2W for 15 pts until the new codex ?

We won't have 2W firstborn until the codex.

 Aaranis wrote:
Also, with the fact that these changes are in the new boxes, I guess it means that we'll have those rules as soon as they restock their stores ? I don't believe they'll wait for the new codices to start selling these new boxes. So does that mean we'll soon have a quantum state of the game where we have Terminators that have both 2W and 3W or what ? Will people have to play with the codex rules until the new codex comes out and they're finally allowed to use the new profile ? Or will we have Firstborn SM at 2W for 15 pts until the new codex ?

Seriously with all these changes I feel like nothing makes sense and GW is changing things in all directions at once which is REALLY confusing

They are hitting stores, that's where these images are coming from. But they are designed to key in with the codex and the codex entries are the correct ones to use. If you want 2w 15pt firstborn, they have no chapter keywords or special abilities beyond those on that instruction booklet.

 Aaranis wrote:
Also, with the fact that these changes are in the new boxes, I guess it means that we'll have those rules as soon as they restock their stores ? I don't believe they'll wait for the new codices to start selling these new boxes. So does that mean we'll soon have a quantum state of the game where we have Terminators that have both 2W and 3W or what ? Will people have to play with the codex rules until the new codex comes out and they're finally allowed to use the new profile ? Or will we have Firstborn SM at 2W for 15 pts until the new codex ?

Seriously with all these changes I feel like nothing makes sense and GW is changing things in all directions at once which is REALLY confusing

Box sets have never been an official source for rules, otherwise you could have had 3-man units of UM Intercessors since the dawn of 8th.
But they are an indication of how the official rule may be.
This repackaging 100% coincided with the development of the new codex, so it only makes sense for those datasheet to match what will soon come out.

Also, the data sheets are incomplete as-is because they do not include the plethora of special rules we know these units have

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
Or will we have Firstborn SM at 2W for 15 pts until the new codex ?

We won't have 2W firstborn until the codex.

There's still the possibility that only the SGTS get 2W, while Tacs/Devs/Assault Marines stay at 1W.
I'm kinda hoping that's what happens, and maybe Devs get T5 to match Havocs

-

 Galef wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
Also, with the fact that these changes are in the new boxes, I guess it means that we'll have those rules as soon as they restock their stores ? I don't believe they'll wait for the new codices to start selling these new boxes. So does that mean we'll soon have a quantum state of the game where we have Terminators that have both 2W and 3W or what ? Will people have to play with the codex rules until the new codex comes out and they're finally allowed to use the new profile ? Or will we have Firstborn SM at 2W for 15 pts until the new codex ?

Seriously with all these changes I feel like nothing makes sense and GW is changing things in all directions at once which is REALLY confusing

Box sets have never been an official source for rules, otherwise you could have had 3-man units of UM Intercessors since the dawn of 8th.
But they are an indication of how the official rule may be.
This repackaging 100% coincided with the development of the new codex, so it only makes sense for those datasheet to match what will soon come out.

Also, the data sheets are incomplete as-is because they do not include the plethora of special rules we know these units have

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
Or will we have Firstborn SM at 2W for 15 pts until the new codex ?

We won't have 2W firstborn until the codex.

There's still the possibility that only the SGTS get 2W, while Tacs/Devs/Assault Marines stay at 1W.
I'm kinda hoping that's what happens, and maybe Devs get T5 to match Havocs

-

Don't taunt the chaos players. Let them have their one nice thing.

----

On the condensed datasheets-- these are official.
Its on pages 7-8 of the rules pdf,

A condensed version of a model’s datasheet can be found in its construction guide – this contains less
information than the full version, but will still let you get your unit on the field straight away.

Page 8 then has both versions of the outrider datasheet (plus a 'full' version of assault intercessors)

From a design perspective, two wound SM makes sense.

As long as the following applies

1) They actually pay the POINTS for this. 15 point tacs would be ball bustingly busted to the point where you won't be able to win a casual game against SM if they aren't full blown stupid.

2) With other fundament changes to weapons that seem to be happening (see: Multimeltas, Thunder Hammers going up to 4 damage, etc), other codexes DESPERATELY need their rules dropped ASAP, otherwise how the hell are armies supposed to beat the horde of 2 wound, cheap elite infantry that's being dropped on the board?

Most armies basic weapon is AP-0, 1 damage, with no major access to army wide re-rolls to hit and wound

All xenos armies are now completely irrelevant, until they get a codex release.

Overstating it?

I pay 15-20 points for a T3 5+ guy, that is completely destroyed in every stat compared to a 24pt veteran. That is now 100% harder to kill than it used to be.

Far as I can see, even the new necron buffs are nowhere near this good

Whatdo we actually know atm, just the Terminators going to 3W?

 Insectum7 wrote:
Whatdo we actually know atm, just the Terminators going to 3W?

SM Vanguard vets are 2 wounds as well.

tulun wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Whatdo we actually know atm, just the Terminators going to 3W?

SM Vanguard vets are 2 wounds as well.

Ahh, crazy. Ok.

Yeah the implications there are crazy.

Niiru wrote:
All xenos armies are now completely irrelevant, until they get a codex release.

Overstating it?

I pay 15-20 points for a T3 5+ guy, that is completely destroyed in every stat compared to a 24pt veteran. That is now 100% harder to kill than it used to be.

Far as I can see, even the new necron buffs are nowhere near this good

It depends if points remain the same or near same. If we are now dealing with 2W marines at 15pts, then Xenos have nothing that can compete at that price range. If they go up proportionally, along with primaries, then large cheap Xenos units could still be viable.

Means high liklihood of chaos chosen, noise marines, plague marines etc also all going to 2 wounds.

Chaos terminators 3w

Blightlords and scarabs and deathshroud 3w.

Eldar (especially harlequins) have nothing even close to being efficient enough to kill those things fast enough that they won't get destroyed first. T3 bodies for the same cost as a T4 pseudo terminator. T5 in some cases. Noise marines can be T5 2W with the same attacks on the charge as a harlequin, for the same points. But is about 200% harder to kill.

 buddha wrote:

Niiru wrote:
All xenos armies are now completely irrelevant, until they get a codex release.

Overstating it?

I pay 15-20 points for a T3 5+ guy, that is completely destroyed in every stat compared to a 24pt veteran. That is now 100% harder to kill than it used to be.

Far as I can see, even the new necron buffs are nowhere near this good

It depends if points remain the same or near same. If we are now dealing with 2W marines at 15pts, then Xenos have nothing that can compete at that price range. If they go up proportionally, along with primaries, then large cheap Xenos units could still be viable.

Yeah, and everyone can have all the fun of their 400 year old eldar aspect warriors, the last 0.1% of a near-extinct race obsessed with survival being suicidal chaff getting mowed down in droves by space marines.

the_scotsman wrote:

 buddha wrote:

Niiru wrote:
All xenos armies are now completely irrelevant, until they get a codex release.

Overstating it?

I pay 15-20 points for a T3 5+ guy, that is completely destroyed in every stat compared to a 24pt veteran. That is now 100% harder to kill than it used to be.

Far as I can see, even the new necron buffs are nowhere near this good

It depends if points remain the same or near same. If we are now dealing with 2W marines at 15pts, then Xenos have nothing that can compete at that price range. If they go up proportionally, along with primaries, then large cheap Xenos units could still be viable.

Yeah, and everyone can have all the fun of their 400 year old eldar aspect warriors, the last 0.1% of a near-extinct race obsessed with survival being suicidal chaff getting mowed down in droves by space marines.

Umm ya isn't that the proverbial joke about storm guardians?

Eldar need a rework as well for this new edition so we'll see what direction GW takes with them.

Typical GW, they find the wrong solution even if they identify a problem. The way to reduce lethality is to reduce lethality directly, not buff the wound characteristic. Instead, they're increasing lethality at the same time they're increasing wounds, which is the classic stat inflation progression that kills games.

Not to mention the absolute mess it is going to create if they do the update piecemeal, faction by faction. And if they were going to do it all together...why didn't they do it on the release of the new edition?

By 12th at this rate marines will have 6 wounds each and shoot 12 strength 6 shots per bolter.

One advantage I see of Firstborn getting 2W AND HOPEFULLY increasing in points proportionally, is that SM will have less models on the table but be more durable, closing the gap between "lore-marines" and "game-marines". SM are supposed to be played as a small elite force but I feel they had a lot of models on the table still, back in 8th. In my opinion that would enhance the game as it will feel more cinematic (the horde of cultists fighting a few Marines) while making it harder for Marines to contest objectives by virtue of having less ObSec models, meaning they'll have to fight more than usual to secure objectives.

It may seem a bit naive when I read what I'm saying but being an eternal pessimist about 40k I think it's a nice improvement

Yeah, marines being 3x as good as a normal human wasn't nearly enough. In 2020 we're used to super hero movies where one super hero is worth 10,000 normal dudes. Space marines should have Imperial Knight level statlines, otherwise you don't feel like you're playing the hero faction.

At least the Reaper Launcher does 2W.

I'm going to await judgement of anything until the whole picture is clearer.

2W Sternguard are gonna compete against Tacticals and Intercessors really hard though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Yeah, marines being 3x as good as a normal human wasn't nearly enough. In 2020 we're used to super hero movies where one super hero is worth 10,000 normal dudes. Space marines should have Imperial Knight level statlines, otherwise you don't feel like you're playing the hero faction.

Utter garbage. F comic book movies.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Yeah, marines being 3x as good as a normal human wasn't nearly enough. In 2020 we're used to super hero movies where one super hero is worth 10,000 normal dudes. Space marines should have Imperial Knight level statlines, otherwise you don't feel like you're playing the hero faction.

Also we have to make sure to keep hiking the prices on those cheap dudes to make sure we're squeezing every last penny from the filthy nonmarine players. 45$ for 10 cultists is not enough! it can go higher! Make it 60$! Make them take 6 times longer to paint than an intercessor - more greebly bits and wires and tubes!

The year is 2021. GW has just released plastic renegades and heretics. They are sold exclusively in monopose, single model kits for 45$ apiece, as the entire army is based only around Blackstone Fortress. The core troop choice for the army is the renegade militia, with a min squad size of 60, 1ppm. They have an army wide special rule "terrifying presence" - if any model with the ADEPTUS ASTARTES keyword declares a charge or shooting attack at a unit with this rule, remove the unit from the table.

I feel like people complaining about Firstborn Marines potentially being made better in comparison to Guardsmen are forgetting that Guardsmen are better in comparison to Firstborn Marines than they've ever been.

In 4th Ed, my Guardsmen had no orders, never got a save, and had an annoying tendency to temporarily flee after taking 3 casualties, or flee for good after losing half the squad.

In 9th Ed, my Guardsmen can double their firepower just by being near an officer, can sprint across the table as needed, hit first when they charge, always get their armor save (subject to modifiers), and are nigh-impossible to wipe out via morale.

What have the Tacticals gotten? An extra attack in the first round of combat, and a point of AP that still doesn't negate Guardsman armor?

15pts for a Tactical versus 5pts for a Guardsman right now is just not fair. They aren't 3x as good as a normal human. A W2 Tactical at 15-16pts feels more right, particularly in comparison to Intercessors, which they're still strictly inferior to stat-wise.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Yeah, marines being 3x as good as a normal human wasn't nearly enough. In 2020 we're used to super hero movies where one super hero is worth 10,000 normal dudes. Space marines should have Imperial Knight level statlines, otherwise you don't feel like you're playing the hero faction.

While not going to the lengths you're describing, do you really prefer a game where a lucky Cultist can kill 2 Marines with his ragtag weapons in one shooting phase ? A game that is as close to the lore as possible within the realm of balance is a better game, more immersive. What Custodes are in game, Marines should have been in the first place. How Custodes would fit in this I don't know but I'm not the one designing a game around a D6 value with units ranging from Grots to Imperial Knights.

 catbarf wrote:
I feel like people complaining about Firstborn Marines potentially being made better in comparison to Guardsmen are forgetting that Guardsmen are better in comparison to Firstborn Marines than they've ever been.

In 4th Ed, my Guardsmen had no orders, never got a save, and had an annoying tendency to temporarily flee after taking 3 casualties, or flee for good after losing half the squad.

In 9th Ed, my Guardsmen can double their firepower just by being near an officer, can sprint across the table as needed, hit first when they charge, always get their armor save (subject to modifiers), and are nigh-impossible to wipe out via morale.

What have the Tacticals gotten? An extra attack in the first round of combat, and a point of AP that still doesn't negate Guardsman armor?

15pts for a Tactical versus 5pts for a Guardsman right now is just not fair. They aren't 3x as good as a normal human. A W2 Tactical at 15-16pts feels more right, particularly in comparison to Intercessors, which they're still strictly inferior to stat-wise.

I'd say a significant part of the issue is the huge nerf to Flamers in 8th. In prior editions my Assault Squads would utterly butcher Guardsmen with their Flamers alone. A good turn with them meant: shoot through one squad into another squad, cause huge casualties, charge them both, cause more casualties and then sweep them off the table. It was brutal, and I didn't have any need for 2W marines or anything, just having the right tools for the job, and morale rules that had some bite.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Aaranis wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Yeah, marines being 3x as good as a normal human wasn't nearly enough. In 2020 we're used to super hero movies where one super hero is worth 10,000 normal dudes. Space marines should have Imperial Knight level statlines, otherwise you don't feel like you're playing the hero faction.

While not going to the lengths you're describing, do you really prefer a game where a lucky Cultist can kill 2 Marines with his ragtag weapons in one shooting phase ? A game that is as close to the lore as possible within the realm of balance is a better game, more immersive. What Custodes are in game, Marines should have been in the first place. How Custodes would fit in this I don't know but I'm not the one designing a game around a D6 value with units ranging from Grots to Imperial Knights.

Ok but here's the problem you run in to. How good should marines be at killing other marines? Chaos vs. Loyalists, how does that go down? Then, Marines vs. Aspect Warriors, how does that go down? etc.

I expect Firstborn infantry to go up about 3 ppm. Terminators are about right in cost for 3W already (compared to Bladeguard, Aggressors, etc), but I could see maybe 1 more ppm for them

 Aaranis wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Yeah, marines being 3x as good as a normal human wasn't nearly enough. In 2020 we're used to super hero movies where one super hero is worth 10,000 normal dudes. Space marines should have Imperial Knight level statlines, otherwise you don't feel like you're playing the hero faction.

While not going to the lengths you're describing, do you really prefer a game where a lucky Cultist can kill 2 Marines with his ragtag weapons in one shooting phase ? A game that is as close to the lore as possible within the realm of balance is a better game, more immersive. What Custodes are in game, Marines should have been in the first place. How Custodes would fit in this I don't know but I'm not the one designing a game around a D6 value with units ranging from Grots to Imperial Knights.

I would hazard to say that most marine players I know would be extremely unhappy if they were limited to only running 20 models in their army. Or at least, they would be after not very long. I know a lot of people who own like 5000-10000 points of one space marine chapter and they like bringing their toys to the tabletop.

 catbarf wrote:
I feel like people complaining about Firstborn Marines potentially being made better in comparison to Guardsmen are forgetting that Guardsmen are better in comparison to Firstborn Marines than they've ever been.

In 4th Ed, my Guardsmen had no orders, never got a save, and had an annoying tendency to temporarily flee after taking 3 casualties, or flee for good after losing half the squad.

In 9th Ed, my Guardsmen can double their firepower just by being near an officer, can sprint across the table as needed, hit first when they charge, always get their armor save (subject to modifiers), and are nigh-impossible to wipe out via morale.

What have the Tacticals gotten? An extra attack in the first round of combat, and a point of AP that still doesn't negate Guardsman armor?

15pts for a Tactical versus 5pts for a Guardsman right now is just not fair. They aren't 3x as good as a normal human. A W2 Tactical at 15-16pts feels more right, particularly in comparison to Intercessors, which they're still strictly inferior to stat-wise.

I don't know about everyone else here, but I wasn't even thinking of guardsmen. I'm more concerned with xenos options.

I pay 15 points for a T3 model with a 5+ (3+ in cover). 13 points for a T3 with 4+. With an 18" weapon and no melee.

So for 0-3 points, I would already get 1T, +1 or +2 Sv, +1S, 6" more range. Which is already a bargain. Adding 1 wound to be 100% more durable is insane.

Put another way, space marines pay 3x the points to be better than a guardsman stat line. I pay 3x the points to be worse than a guardsman.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Typical GW, they find the wrong solution even if they identify a problem. The way to reduce lethality is to reduce lethality directly, not buff the wound characteristic. Instead, they're increasing lethality at the same time they're increasing wounds, which is the classic stat inflation progression that kills games.

Not to mention the absolute mess it is going to create if they do the update piecemeal, faction by faction. And if they were going to do it all together...why didn't they do it on the release of the new edition?

By 12th at this rate marines will have 6 wounds each and shoot 12 strength 6 shots per bolter.

A marine that has W2 will be more points. That decreases the number of guns on the table. These datasheets aren't revealing additional attacks, either. A S5 powersword VV with 2 attacks doesn't kill any more Eldar than the one that was only S4 with 2A.

Typical GW, they find the wrong solution even if they identify a problem. The way to reduce lethality is to reduce lethality directly, not buff the wound characteristic. Instead, they're increasing lethality at the same time they're increasing wounds, which is the classic stat inflation progression that kills games.

Yes, but they're ALSO increasing lethality on many weapons as well so ... oh. Oh wait ... aww hell ...

Don't taunt the chaos players. Let them have their one nice thing.

As a Chaos player, I legit lol's at this. People keep saying this means there's a good chance the CSM stuff will get corresponding buffs - I mean, anything is possible, but I can't think of a single time GW has given the Loyalists a boost like this and then carried it over to the second class citizens that are my CSM. I wouldn't hold my breath.

 catbarf wrote:
I feel like people complaining about Firstborn Marines potentially being made better in comparison to Guardsmen are forgetting that Guardsmen are better in comparison to Firstborn Marines than they've ever been.

In 4th Ed, my Guardsmen had no orders, never got a save, and had an annoying tendency to temporarily flee after taking 3 casualties, or flee for good after losing half the squad.

In 9th Ed, my Guardsmen can double their firepower just by being near an officer, can sprint across the table as needed, hit first when they charge, always get their armor save (subject to modifiers), and are nigh-impossible to wipe out via morale.

What have the Tacticals gotten? An extra attack in the first round of combat, and a point of AP that still doesn't negate Guardsman armor?

15pts for a Tactical versus 5pts for a Guardsman right now is just not fair. They aren't 3x as good as a normal human. A W2 Tactical at 15-16pts feels more right, particularly in comparison to Intercessors, which they're still strictly inferior to stat-wise.

How does that work for an 11 point battle sister? You'd have double the wounds, double the attacks on the charge, +1S, +1 Toughness, +1WS, bolter drill, and much better special weapon options. Even with the 6+ invul, extra special weapon in a min squad, and 1d6 deny the witch on the other side, there's no possible way you could justify a 2W tac at 15 if a battle sister stays at 11. They very nearly ARE twice as good now.

Even with just basic marine army rules, tacs will have to come in at maybe a point or 2 below intercessors to not just be +1 intercessors +10 Battle Sisters and CSM(until the CSM get their second wound...maybe.) and +20 versions of things like Necron warriors or Eldar dire avengers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Typical GW, they find the wrong solution even if they identify a problem. The way to reduce lethality is to reduce lethality directly, not buff the wound characteristic. Instead, they're increasing lethality at the same time they're increasing wounds, which is the classic stat inflation progression that kills games.

Not to mention the absolute mess it is going to create if they do the update piecemeal, faction by faction. And if they were going to do it all together...why didn't they do it on the release of the new edition?

By 12th at this rate marines will have 6 wounds each and shoot 12 strength 6 shots per bolter.

A marine that has W2 will be more points. That decreases the number of guns on the table. These datasheets aren't revealing additional attacks, either. A S5 powersword VV with 2 attacks doesn't kill any more Eldar than the one that was only S4 with 2A.

A unit of S8 VV with 4 damage thunderhammers sure as hell kills more Eldar vehicles in 11 attacks than a S8 VV with 3 damage thunderhammers does in 11 attacks.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

A S5 powersword VV with 2 attacks doesn't kill any more Eldar than the one that was only S4 with 2A.

Only if you're up against a foot elf. This significantly increases lethality against T4 targets for power swords and T5 and T3 targets for axes, which is a *significant* portion of the playspace.

Insectum7 wrote:Ok but here's the problem you run in to. How good should marines be at killing other marines? Chaos vs. Loyalists, how does that go down? Then, Marines vs. Aspect Warriors, how does that go down? etc.

In an ideal setting SMC would be on par with the Loyalists stats-wise, but have other special rules in line with their Legion to represent their experience. Aspect Warriors may be less resilient but be better than a Marine at their specific job by miles. Fire Dragons should be WAY better than Eradicators at destroying armour, but Eradicators fight way better and are more resilient. And so on. I'm no expert on Aeldari though.

I just remember the times where I was told "Space Marines are the ideal starting army, they're jack-of-all trades but master of none" and now they're almost master of all.

the_scotsman wrote:I would hazard to say that most marine players I know would be extremely unhappy if they were limited to only running 20 models in their army. Or at least, they would be after not very long. I know a lot of people who own like 5000-10000 points of one space marine chapter and they like bringing their toys to the tabletop.

Yeah of course, that's the problem with retroactive changes like the Primarisation of the line, if it had been like that from day 1 it would have been fine but then suddenly coexisted squatty Marines and well-proportioned Marines in the same line. So they made them different.

I agree that it feels better to use most of the models in your collection when you're proud of their paint etc and want epic games.

Tycho wrote:

Typical GW, they find the wrong solution even if they identify a problem. The way to reduce lethality is to reduce lethality directly, not buff the wound characteristic. Instead, they're increasing lethality at the same time they're increasing wounds, which is the classic stat inflation progression that kills games.

Yes, but they're ALSO increasing lethality on many weapons as well so ... oh. Oh wait ... aww hell ...

Don't taunt the chaos players. Let them have their one nice thing.

As a Chaos player, I legit lol's at this. People keep saying this means there's a good chance the CSM stuff will get corresponding buffs - I mean, anything is possible, but I can't think of a single time GW has given the Loyalists a boost like this and then carried it over to the second class citizens that are my CSM. I wouldn't hold my breath.

Shock assault and bolter discipline.