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 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, an even stronger move to loyal Marines could kill the game.
Imagine you go to a tourney with your Marine army and face 5 Marine armies over the weekend, two or three of which from the same chapter.
I guess the tourney scene could loose grip and extinct.

there's always hope...

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, an even stronger move to loyal Marines could kill the game.
Imagine you go to a tourney with your Marine army and face 5 Marine armies over the weekend, two or three of which from the same chapter.
I guess the tourney scene could loose grip and extinct.

However, GW announced (with the announcement of 2W Tacticals) that they would do something to Xenos as well.
Not sure how this would look like.
Two wound Aspect warriors, say?

keep in mind with Marines right now there's a LOT of varity in a list. you could play those 5 other marine armies and every list would be fairly differant so for people who like marines that might not be THAT big a deal. as it's not like it'll be the same list played over and over

BrianDavion wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, an even stronger move to loyal Marines could kill the game.
Imagine you go to a tourney with your Marine army and face 5 Marine armies over the weekend, two or three of which from the same chapter.
I guess the tourney scene could loose grip and extinct.

However, GW announced (with the announcement of 2W Tacticals) that they would do something to Xenos as well.
Not sure how this would look like.
Two wound Aspect warriors, say?

keep in mind with Marines right now there's a LOT of varity in a list. you could play those 5 other marine armies and every list would be fairly differant so for people who like marines that might not be THAT big a deal. as it's not like it'll be the same list played over and over

At that point people actually could go play 30k , which atleast still is a war(game)...

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, an even stronger move to loyal Marines could kill the game.
Imagine you go to a tourney with your Marine army and face 5 Marine armies over the weekend, two or three of which from the same chapter.

Not saying it will or should happen, but assuming it would: Chess has exactly one "build", mirrored for both sides. In terms of balance it is pretty solid, or so I hear.

What could be funny, just for a change: a tournament of only loyalist SM lists, and another one of no loyalist SM lists. Maybe a Xenos-only event too. I'm genuinely curious how that would turn out.

ERJAK wrote:

nekooni wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:
I'm still slightly taken aback by people freaking out about Multi Meltas being changed just so they aren't complete dogshit any more.

I think there's a case to be made that they went overboard. MM's needed help, absolutely. Tripling the average damage output however may have been...a wee bit much. Two BS3+ MM's now in optimal range will kill almost any T7 3+ vehicle in one round of shooting, delivering 12 wounds with average rolls with the new Heavy 2 "2d6-pick-highest+2" Damage profile.

Where are you getting "2d6-pick-highest+2"? Last I checked the leaked statline had a damage of 1d6 and the half-range bonus was +2 instead of roll twice and pick highest, your average per multi-melta at optimal range without rerolls is about 4 wounds to T7/3+ (2/3*2/3*5/6*5.5*2 = 220/54). (5.5 with Captain/Lieutenant, in case anyone's curious)

Ah ok, seems I missed that they dropped the "pick highest". Still works out to a 2.5x damage bonus and an average of 10 wounds inflicted in my previous example case. A bit better, but still probably overboard.

Which is fine for a 24" weapon that will most likely also get a price increase to 35 or 40 points, which puts it at the level of a twin lascan.

Lol, it's not gonna go up to 35 or 40pts. Multimeltas were unusable garbage before at 25 for vehicles and 20 for infantry. Them going up to be the same price as a twin lascannon just makes them unusable garbage again.

The changes to the MM prices in CA are almost certainly intended for the new statline(because it made NO sense for the old one) they might need to nerf it down at some point in the future, but honestly, with how terrible multimeltas were before, I wouldn't be surprised if 25pts ends up being fair for their current output.

I would be, but I'm also looking at this from a Salamanders pov where MM are worth more than for other chapters. To me, 35 points would be fine for the updated profile, while Las talons have to drop to 30 or 25 even

BrianDavion wrote:
Why is it that the loudest voices about Marines are almost universally Eldar?

Cause all the other xenos players have been ground down into expecting their uselessness. Only Eldar were good enough to compete and so haven't lost that sense of optimism that they can manage a fight against marines.

nekooni wrote:

I would be, but I'm also looking at this from a Salamanders pov where MM are worth more than for other chapters. To me, 35 points would be fine for the updated profile, while Las talons have to drop to 30 or 25 even

No. lascannons and MM needs to be the same price, with different utility : one must have range, and the other, damage.

stratigo wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Why is it that the loudest voices about Marines are almost universally Eldar?

Cause all the other xenos players have been ground down into expecting their uselessness. Only Eldar were good enough to compete and so haven't lost that sense of optimism that they can manage a fight against marines.

And that Marines dun git gud by wholesale pilfering of Eldar rules

Slightly off topic, but I cant help noticing here and elsewhere that the main complaint against Tau is their over reliance on drones and 'tides to play and that its boring to play.

And yet when someone asks how to compete against SM we're told "use 'tides with plenty of drones!"

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:
Slightly off topic, but I cant help noticing here and elsewhere that the main complaint against Tau is their over reliance on drones and 'tides to play and that its boring to play.

And yet when someone asks how to compete against SM we're told "use 'tides with plenty of drones!"

Andrew

Well.
Tides and drones is a boring playstyle to play against or with, i rekon, but also was the only one actually capable of competing in most ways.
Truth of the matter is that the Taudex has a lot of dead entries in dex, wrong choice so to speak, like most dexes do aswell.
The difference is, the Sm 2.0 dex allowed even for comparable dead entries to function against non internal armies or units well whilest other dexes don't really allow for that all that well.

 Nazrak wrote:
I'm still slightly taken aback by people freaking out about Multi Meltas being changed just so they aren't complete dogpoop any more.

I remember in 2nd multimeltas were unstoppable

stratigo wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Why is it that the loudest voices about Marines are almost universally Eldar?

Cause all the other xenos players have been ground down into expecting their uselessness. Only Eldar were good enough to compete and so haven't lost that sense of optimism that they can manage a fight against marines.

Probably because the Eldar are a good guy faction to players, xenos second. They're the most human of all the aliens so players can connect with them fairly easily.

And GW have spent 20 years stealing their distinctiveness, undermining their heroicness, making them appear less than all to push marines up and keep their army expanding with units.

Eldar exarchs, warlocks, Phoenix lords were all mighty characters that the eldar had in 2nd ed, their equivalent of the mightiest of marine Champions.

But only marines get to be that cool, only they get expanded army lists, extra characters, mighty heroes.


Of all the xenos, the Eldar are the most like the human army and have the same kind of connection that a human army player would have, in comparisons to say Orks or nids.

All armies should be treated equally, the Eldar have just been treated worse precisely because they compete with the imperium conceptually more closely, and so always come out last.

 AndrewC wrote:
Slightly off topic, but I cant help noticing here and elsewhere that the main complaint against Tau is their over reliance on drones and 'tides to play and that its boring to play.

And yet when someone asks how to compete against SM we're told "use 'tides with plenty of drones!"

Andrew

It's almost like gw refuses to make any other playstyle viable (I miss my JSJ crisis suits).

mrFickle wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:
I'm still slightly taken aback by people freaking out about Multi Meltas being changed just so they aren't complete dogpoop any more.

I remember in 2nd multimeltas were unstoppable

Not to The Avatar

To answer the original question, I actually don't know yet how to beat Marines with Xenos.

Myself and a friend are going through our armies with 9th rules and points. So far my Orks beat his Chaos Knights, and also his Tyrannids (I'm running mechanised).

However...this week my same Ork list played his Salamanders and it was a disaster. I had a great first turn, 20 mortal wounds inflicted with a suicide burna bomber and some decent shooting.. But after that he just offloaded from his transport and moved his dreads up, and I never shifted him off the central objectives. I made a couple of mistakes, but the fact was it was a completely different experience than the previous 2 games.

I'm trying Death Guard against his same Salamander list next, then ad mech and then Iron Hands.

So, we're the same players, using repeatable lists, and so far I'm sorry but I don't know how to beat Salamanders.

Eldar are a good guy faction?

You mean the fascists that will manipulate events so that a billion will die to save one of their own?

There are no good guy factions in 40k, even the Tau are up to no good.

The imperium are terrible, but the Eldar are no better.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Eldar are a good guy faction?

You mean the fascists that will manipulate events so that a billion will die to save one of their own?

There are no good guy factions in 40k, even the Tau are up to no good.

The imperium are terrible, but the Eldar are no better.

Good guy in the context of 40k. They occupy the same conceptual space the Imperium does for players.

BrianDavion wrote:
Why is it that the loudest voices about Marines are almost universally Eldar?

Oh please, the loudest voices about Marines are universally Marines because they're the vast majority of the playerbase.

This forum was 50% drowned in Marine players complaining back when Guard were Top Tier for the first ten minutes of 8th. People STILL don't shut up about Eldar and Tau in 6th/7th. Hell, it was only a couple of years ago people stopped saying, "Well CSM was OP in 3.5 so it's fine they had a crap codexes for fifteen years."

There are no good guys...

This is off topic, and something I've been thinking about starting a topic on, but there is genuinely a far right movement within 40k players, and part of the argument for their liking of the game is that they actually enjoy the idea of the imperium, totalitarianism and fascism is what they want in a government.

Eldar are just a different side of that far right mentality.

There are no good guys in 40k.

 wuestenfux wrote:


However, GW announced (with the announcement of 2W Tacticals) that they would do something to Xenos as well.

I think that's exactly what the xenos are afraid of.

ccs wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:


However, GW announced (with the announcement of 2W Tacticals) that they would do something to Xenos as well.

I think that's exactly what the xenos are afraid of.

Can't wait for Aberrants to go up another twenty points each.

Icegoat wrote:
Thousands of people own thousands of points worth of old marines who just became the most overpowered horde army in warhammer history. Entire armies are going to be obliterated in one turn. This paradigm shift is going to create a black hole of despair come October to every non marine player in 40k.

This is not the level of emotion someone should be pouring into any game.

 blood reaper wrote:

Icegoat wrote:
Thousands of people own thousands of points worth of old marines who just became the most overpowered horde army in warhammer history. Entire armies are going to be obliterated in one turn. This paradigm shift is going to create a black hole of despair come October to every non marine player in 40k.

This is not the level of emotion someone should be pouring into any game.

it's dakkadakka. Negative Hyperbole is the name of the game here.

The world could be going to hell in a handbasket, with a global pandmic and economic collapse. but you can be sure there are people online saying "THE SPACE MARINE CHANGES ARE THE WORST THING IN THE WORLD TO HAPPEN... EVER!"

ccs wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:


However, GW announced (with the announcement of 2W Tacticals) that they would do something to Xenos as well.

I think that's exactly what the xenos are afraid of.

Roll a d6 for xenos upgrade:
1) Nerf a unit central to their current strategy into the ground
2) Delete a HQ
3) Buff a unit that is not competitive to a level that is still non-competitive
4) Retcon the entire background
5) Reduce durability of signature units
6) Add a powerful buff, but it can only affect a single unit that doesn't actually benefit from it

Not Online!!! wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, an even stronger move to loyal Marines could kill the game.
Imagine you go to a tourney with your Marine army and face 5 Marine armies over the weekend, two or three of which from the same chapter.
I guess the tourney scene could loose grip and extinct.

However, GW announced (with the announcement of 2W Tacticals) that they would do something to Xenos as well.
Not sure how this would look like.
Two wound Aspect warriors, say?

keep in mind with Marines right now there's a LOT of varity in a list. you could play those 5 other marine armies and every list would be fairly differant so for people who like marines that might not be THAT big a deal. as it's not like it'll be the same list played over and over

At that point people actually could go play 30k , which atleast still is a war(game)...

No idea why vehicles exploding instantly every time they're targeted and/or get to close to a bush or a fence makes it more of a wargame, but hey you do you.

At that point people actually could go play 30k , which atleast still is a war(game)...

This is also my thought.
If you want to play and battle Marines, go for 30k.
Decent background and rules.

Ice_can wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Phenatix wrote:

 Rinkydink wrote:
The way Xenos compete is to wait for their codex and see what has changed. We have been told endlessly that play-testers were involved in this part of the development.

It sucks right now, but no need to panic if the 9th ed codexes hit in a timely matter.

sounds good right no need to panic if your faction is unplayable bad by comparison for months on end.

While I would normally agree with this, and it's a fair complaint, given the current state of world affairs, how relevant is it when many if not most gaming venues are closed and events are practically nonexistent? Most of us aren't getting any games in right now, or for the foreseeable future, either way. None of the clubs or stores within about an hour's drive of me are open for gaming, only limited occupancy shopping or curbside service, and that doesn't look to be changing any time soon, though I'll grant other areas of the world may be different.

That's the key thing other areas of the world are different their might not be any 100 to 200 people events but smaller events are coming back and the ability to play is increasing as lockdowns are lifted/easing. This isn't some theoretical exercise this is the current game state for people, not to mention all the TTS games etc peoole are playing.

TTS is a valid point, but anyone running IRL tournaments at present needs prosecuting for reckless endangerment.

mrFickle wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:
I'm still slightly taken aback by people freaking out about Multi Meltas being changed just so they aren't complete dogpoop any more.

I remember in 2nd multimeltas were unstoppable

If 2nd was the last time they were good, that's a long time for a weapon to be poor.

Mind you, something similar could arguably be said about the humble Heavy Bolter.

ERJAK wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
At that point people actually could go play 30k , which atleast still is a war(game)...

No idea why vehicles exploding instantly every time they're targeted and/or get to close to a bush or a fence makes it more of a wargame, but hey you do you.

Pretty sure you've had it pointed out to you before that you're talking a load of gak with that claim, ERJAK.

BrianDavion 791070 10899354 wrote:


keep in mind with Marines right now there's a LOT of varity in a list. you could play those 5 other marine armies and every list would be fairly differant so for people who like marines that might not be THAT big a deal. as it's not like it'll be the same list played over and over

True I have seen so many different marines armies comparing to 8th ed, and am not couting my GK. Aggresor heavy armies, lots of bikes and outridders, spam of regular and melee intercessors. Armies with dreads and vehicles, armies without a single vehicles. Even the HQs aren't the same, everyone does run a master of sancticity, but not everyone runs a librarians, and in some armies the capt+2 Lt are just buff bots, while other armies run them with jump packs and bikes.

Over the last 2 weeks I played 7 games, all vs some sort of marines, and not a single list was the same.

Karol wrote:

BrianDavion 791070 10899354 wrote:


keep in mind with Marines right now there's a LOT of varity in a list. you could play those 5 other marine armies and every list would be fairly differant so for people who like marines that might not be THAT big a deal. as it's not like it'll be the same list played over and over

True I have seen so many different marines armies comparing to 8th ed, and am not couting my GK. Aggresor heavy armies, lots of bikes and outridders, spam of regular and melee intercessors. Armies with dreads and vehicles, armies without a single vehicles. Even the HQs aren't the same, everyone does run a master of sancticity, but not everyone runs a librarians, and in some armies the capt+2 Lt are just buff bots, while other armies run them with jump packs and bikes.

Over the last 2 weeks I played 7 games, all vs some sort of marines, and not a single list was the same.

Thanks to GW.
Loyal Marine armies have a variety we have never seen before.
And the variety will even increase with first-born Marines getting 2W.

I personally can't wait until Tau Fire Warriors do a mortal wound on a 6 to hit, and Eldar Aspect Warriors get double wounds and 24" assault 4 S -2 AP 3 D weapons standard. It's gonna be awesome!