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ERJAK wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, an even stronger move to loyal Marines could kill the game.
Imagine you go to a tourney with your Marine army and face 5 Marine armies over the weekend, two or three of which from the same chapter.
I guess the tourney scene could loose grip and extinct.

However, GW announced (with the announcement of 2W Tacticals) that they would do something to Xenos as well.
Not sure how this would look like.
Two wound Aspect warriors, say?

keep in mind with Marines right now there's a LOT of varity in a list. you could play those 5 other marine armies and every list would be fairly differant so for people who like marines that might not be THAT big a deal. as it's not like it'll be the same list played over and over

At that point people actually could go play 30k , which atleast still is a war(game)...

No idea why vehicles exploding instantly every time they're targeted and/or get to close to a bush or a fence makes it more of a wargame, but hey you do you.

I don't know how much you know about warfare, especially vehicles, but let's just say terrain attrition is damn high compared to actual combat casualities of vehicles....



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 wuestenfux wrote:

At that point people actually could go play 30k , which atleast still is a war(game)...

This is also my thought.
If you want to play and battle Marines, go for 30k.
Decent background and rules.

(as an aside even non marine options in there get also more support, like custodes, or Militia in all it's variants, or mechanicum)

 bullyboy wrote:
And definitely way off on Eldar Wraithblades. There are these things called objectives near the middle of the board...my axe blades will meet you there.

I did say that they won't get to marines offensively, only if the marines come to them. Which you are right, it's not exactly correct, if the marines stand still then the blades will get to them... Eventually.

Objective heavy games have added to wraithbkades usefulness, for sure

 AndrewC wrote:
Slightly off topic, but I cant help noticing here and elsewhere that the main complaint against Tau is their over reliance on drones and 'tides to play and that its boring to play.

And yet when someone asks how to compete against SM we're told "use 'tides with plenty of drones!"

Andrew

Tau need a new book. The current one can't be salvaged. It's either bad to play, or bad to play against, and often both.

Niiru wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
And definitely way off on Eldar Wraithblades. There are these things called objectives near the middle of the board...my axe blades will meet you there.

I did say that they won't get to marines offensively, only if the marines come to them. Which you are right, it's not exactly correct, if the marines stand still then the blades will get to them... Eventually.

?? Does the current Codex stop you from popping them in Wave Serpents? That was never a thing before, and the WS largely escaped the Crushing Hammer of Doom that hit most eldar.

ccs wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:


However, GW announced (with the announcement of 2W Tacticals) that they would do something to Xenos as well.

I think that's exactly what the xenos are afraid of.

GW said Vengeance of the Machine Spirit would "do something different" in 9th, that something turned out to be ceasing to exist. I'd say Xenos have a right to be worried.

The Newman wrote:

ccs wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:


However, GW announced (with the announcement of 2W Tacticals) that they would do something to Xenos as well.

I think that's exactly what the xenos are afraid of.

GW said Vengeance of the Machine Spirit would "do something different" in 9th, that something turned out to be ceasing to exist. I'd say Xenos have a right to be worried.

Where did they say that?

Wait... you are talking about Power of the Machine Spirit, and not the strat that actually still works, right?

stratigo wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:
Slightly off topic, but I cant help noticing here and elsewhere that the main complaint against Tau is their over reliance on drones and 'tides to play and that its boring to play.

And yet when someone asks how to compete against SM we're told "use 'tides with plenty of drones!"

Andrew

Tau need a new book. The current one can't be salvaged. It's either bad to play, or bad to play against, and often both.

Shield drones are the fething worst thing in the game, I'd rather play triptides all day if they didnt have 30 fething drones(yes I'm exaggerating).

Voss wrote:

The Newman wrote:

ccs wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:


However, GW announced (with the announcement of 2W Tacticals) that they would do something to Xenos as well.

I think that's exactly what the xenos are afraid of.

GW said Vengeance of the Machine Spirit would "do something different" in 9th, that something turned out to be ceasing to exist. I'd say Xenos have a right to be worried.

Where did they say that?

Wait... you are talking about Power of the Machine Spirit, and not the strat that actually still works, right?

Yeah! What'd I say? [/Jonny Bravo]

Racerguy180 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:Why is it that the loudest voices about Marines are almost universally Eldar?

kinda like sour grapes

More like the pot complaining about the color of the kettle. When people say that xenos have had a rough edition, they are not talking about the eldar. The eldar spent a third of 8th ed wildly overpowered, a third mildly overpowered, and a third as a close runner up the the space marines in terms of win percentage. You know what I have to say about that, good for them, if not for the eldar 8th would have been an IoM circle jerk, well more than it already was. I just wish there was more self awareness amongst eldar players of their relative strength, that they would be a tad more sympathetic towards less successful factions, and less cattish towards other strong factions.

 bullyboy wrote:
And definitely way off on Eldar Wraithblades. There are these things called objectives near the middle of the board...my axe blades will meet you there.

yup. this.

We have a guy running an army with 2 units of wraith axes and he is an absolute terror when he gets midfield. Given that wave serpents can get him there, and aeldari have no problems killing armour to get it cleared off, its been an absolute pain in the ass to get him off of those objectives.

But to acknowledge that would mean that people would actually have to try new and different things, and this shithole vortex of negativity just can't have that.

Voss wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
And definitely way off on Eldar Wraithblades. There are these things called objectives near the middle of the board...my axe blades will meet you there.

I did say that they won't get to marines offensively, only if the marines come to them. Which you are right, it's not exactly correct, if the marines stand still then the blades will get to them... Eventually.

?? Does the current Codex stop you from popping them in Wave Serpents? That was never a thing before, and the WS largely escaped the Crushing Hammer of Doom that hit most eldar.

No, but we were comparing the units, adding a wave serpent almost doubles the cost. You could also deepstrike them, with a soiritseer, for a 1 in 3 chance to make a charge, but that's then a bunch more points and 3cp. However you butter it, they come out expensive and risky. Sitting them on an objective and keeping them there the whole game is likely the most reliable use for them.

Not Online!!! wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, an even stronger move to loyal Marines could kill the game.
Imagine you go to a tourney with your Marine army and face 5 Marine armies over the weekend, two or three of which from the same chapter.
I guess the tourney scene could loose grip and extinct.

However, GW announced (with the announcement of 2W Tacticals) that they would do something to Xenos as well.
Not sure how this would look like.
Two wound Aspect warriors, say?

keep in mind with Marines right now there's a LOT of varity in a list. you could play those 5 other marine armies and every list would be fairly differant so for people who like marines that might not be THAT big a deal. as it's not like it'll be the same list played over and over

At that point people actually could go play 30k , which atleast still is a war(game)...

No idea why vehicles exploding instantly every time they're targeted and/or get to close to a bush or a fence makes it more of a wargame, but hey you do you.

I don't know how much you know about warfare, especially vehicles, but let's just say terrain attrition is damn high compared to actual combat casualities of vehicles....



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 wuestenfux wrote:

At that point people actually could go play 30k , which atleast still is a war(game)...

This is also my thought.
If you want to play and battle Marines, go for 30k.
Decent background and rules.

(as an aside even non marine options in there get also more support, like custodes, or Militia in all it's variants, or mechanicum)

Lol, because 'terrain attrition' and 'touched a bush and violently exploded killing several of the soldiers inside' are totally the same thing.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Icegoat, for your own good, take a break. You've been making these alarmist posts that are clearly emotion driven and spontaneous.

Making marine 2w changes to how you have to play since you already had to skew your lists for primaris and no one was bringing oldmarines.

Eldar: starcannons, falcons, hornets and wraithblades with axes can all deal with primaris.
Drukhari: disintegrators still are marine killers and now you don't "waste" their dmage 2 on oldmarines anymore.
Harlequins : Kisses kill marines on every failed saves.
Tau : Riptides still deal 2 damage and kill marines.
Necrons : we already nkow their weapons are being reworked, the spear dudes now have a flat 2 damage and honestly im really not familiar with this army.
Orks : Lootas still kill marines.
Tyranids/GSC : dont know the army enough, i guess hive guards and the exocrine/tyrannofex can pop 2wounds marines.

These are all units that are already being played because of primaris, you barely have to change what youre doing.

Boyz still kill marines. I lost half my army to mass boyz today in a game, and while my Bladeguard and Outriders did a good job, they weren't enough to save the game for me. Shoota boyz are amazing at holding objectives now too, which I really like. It was fun trying to assault a squad of 20 in a crater!

Niiru wrote:

Voss wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
And definitely way off on Eldar Wraithblades. There are these things called objectives near the middle of the board...my axe blades will meet you there.

I did say that they won't get to marines offensively, only if the marines come to them. Which you are right, it's not exactly correct, if the marines stand still then the blades will get to them... Eventually.

?? Does the current Codex stop you from popping them in Wave Serpents? That was never a thing before, and the WS largely escaped the Crushing Hammer of Doom that hit most eldar.

No, but we were comparing the units, adding a wave serpent almost doubles the cost. You could also deepstrike them, with a soiritseer, for a 1 in 3 chance to make a charge, but that's then a bunch more points and 3cp. However you butter it, they come out expensive and risky. Sitting them on an objective and keeping them there the whole game is likely the most reliable use for them.

I have run them on foot and 6 in a serpent (spiritseer in a second with regular guard). On foot they can get close quickly, either through quicken or using the auto 6" advance strat. I prefer the serpent overall, simply because the protection gives you the opportunity to survive turn 1 before adding protect and fortune onto them.

Niiru wrote:

No, but we were comparing the units, adding a wave serpent almost doubles the cost.

Not from my PoV as I've always considered the serpent as integral to the unit as any of the Wraiths it transports. To me? That's just what the unit costs.

In view of Wraithblades, two units of 5 or a big unit of 10?

ccs wrote:

Niiru wrote:

No, but we were comparing the units, adding a wave serpent almost doubles the cost.

Not from my PoV as I've always considered the serpent as integral to the unit as any of the Wraiths it transports. To me? That's just what the unit costs.

yeah it's not like a WS is just a box to go from point a to point b like a rhino. I mean the firepower it has for 150 points is pretty solid.

BrianDavion wrote:

ccs wrote:

Niiru wrote:

No, but we were comparing the units, adding a wave serpent almost doubles the cost.

Not from my PoV as I've always considered the serpent as integral to the unit as any of the Wraiths it transports. To me? That's just what the unit costs.

yeah it's not like a WS is just a box to go from point a to point b like a rhino. I mean the firepower it has for 150 points is pretty solid.

Well...no. The WS has a lot of perks going for him, but the 150 point version (Shuricannon and shuripult) has pitiful firepower for the cost.

Eldar can do well in 9th, maybe not the best but pretty top tier overall. They will probably have to rely on expert crafters msu style lists but their firepower is still hyper efficient, especially against eilte armies.

Spoletta wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

ccs wrote:

Niiru wrote:

No, but we were comparing the units, adding a wave serpent almost doubles the cost.

Not from my PoV as I've always considered the serpent as integral to the unit as any of the Wraiths it transports. To me? That's just what the unit costs.

yeah it's not like a WS is just a box to go from point a to point b like a rhino. I mean the firepower it has for 150 points is pretty solid.

Well...no. The WS has a lot of perks going for him, but the 150 point version (Shuricannon and shuripult) has pitiful firepower for the cost.

yeah I'd misread the entry and thought EACH shuricanon was 6 shots giving it firepower about on par with a razorback, I stand corrected.

 Togusa wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Icegoat, for your own good, take a break. You've been making these alarmist posts that are clearly emotion driven and spontaneous.

Making marine 2w changes to how you have to play since you already had to skew your lists for primaris and no one was bringing oldmarines.

Eldar: starcannons, falcons, hornets and wraithblades with axes can all deal with primaris.
Drukhari: disintegrators still are marine killers and now you don't "waste" their dmage 2 on oldmarines anymore.
Harlequins : Kisses kill marines on every failed saves.
Tau : Riptides still deal 2 damage and kill marines.
Necrons : we already nkow their weapons are being reworked, the spear dudes now have a flat 2 damage and honestly im really not familiar with this army.
Orks : Lootas still kill marines.
Tyranids/GSC : dont know the army enough, i guess hive guards and the exocrine/tyrannofex can pop 2wounds marines.

These are all units that are already being played because of primaris, you barely have to change what youre doing.

Boyz still kill marines. I lost half my army to mass boyz today in a game, and while my Bladeguard and Outriders did a good job, they weren't enough to save the game for me. Shoota boyz are amazing at holding objectives now too, which I really like. It was fun trying to assault a squad of 20 in a crater!

While I would agree that orks should not have a lot of trouble pushing marines off objectives, neither lootas nor boyz are the tools to do so. Lootas lost pretty much everything that made them viable and weren't great at killing marines to begin with, while boyz simply bounce off 2W marines. But between scrapjets, KBB, nauts, dreads, MANz, killa klaw warboss, da boomer, anything holding a killsaw and deff rollas there are plenty of tools to crush primaris and upgraded firstborns.

Oh, and objectives cannot be inside craters, or any terrain for that matter. Check the rules on how to create the battlefield in front of the missions, you set up objectives first and place terrain afterwards. Terrain cannot be set up on top of objective markers.

While I agree that Dissies are efficient vs 2W Marines, they are really expensive now, as are the platforms that can carry them which are fodder for heavy bolters.

 Jidmah wrote:


While I would agree that orks should not have a lot of trouble pushing marines off objectives, neither lootas nor boyz are the tools to do so. Lootas lost pretty much everything that made them viable and weren't great at killing marines to begin with, while boyz simply bounce off 2W marines. But between scrapjets, KBB, nauts, dreads, MANz, killa klaw warboss, da boomer, anything holding a killsaw and deff rollas there are plenty of tools to crush primaris and upgraded firstborns.

Oh, and objectives cannot be inside craters, or any terrain for that matter. Check the rules on how to create the battlefield in front of the missions, you set up objectives first and place terrain afterwards. Terrain cannot be set up on top of objective markers.

Boyz kill Primaris just fine. 20 Boyz attacking with no buffs kills over four Intercessors on average, or about 80 points worth.

The same point cost (160 points) of Intercessors, so eight of them, kill seven on average, or 56 points of Boyz. Boyz are far more efficient at killing Intercessors in melee than the opposite..

I didn't factor Boss Nobz or Sergeants into the equation, but that favors the Boyz more than the Intercessors. A Boss Nob with a Power Klaw is 18 points, the sergeant 35, with both having the same number of attacks with the Boyz having 20+ models and the sergeant having just charged/been charged.

Which is to say nothing if your Boyz are Goffs, which is apparently a thing now in competitive? If they're Goffs 20 Boyz can reliably kill a MSU of Intercessors on the charge with no buffs before even factoring in the Boss Nob, and will take a max sized unit down to half strength.

I went with 20 because I'm not sure how many Boyz can reasonably be expected to be able to fight. It may be that more or less can fight; I haven't played with or against any horde factions as of yet in ninth, so I don't know how well they do with the new rules for who can fight in the fight phase.

And obviously this doesn't factor in shooting, if your Boyz squad got lit up like the fourth of July in the enemy's turn you're not going to be able to do gak with them obviously.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Boyz kill Primaris just fine. 20 Boyz attacking with no buffs kills over four Intercessors on average, or about 80 points worth.

20 shoota boyz have 60 attacks, hit 40, wound 20, cause 7.33 unsaved wounds for 3-4 dead intercessor on average. Except you can only have about 10-12 attack in combat due to the new half inch rule.
So the actual output is more like 36 attacks, hit 24, wound 12, cause 4 unsaved wounds for 2 dead intercessors.

The same point cost (160 points) of Intercessors, so eight of them, kill seven on average, or 56 points of Boyz. Boyz are far more efficient at killing Intercessors in melee than the opposite..

It would be really bad if intercessors were just as efficient in combat as a unit with no defense or shooting capability, right? I suggest utilizing those 30" bolters with AP-1 instead.

Which is to say nothing if your Boyz are Goffs, which is apparently a thing now in competitive?

It's not. People are just playing games with their newly finished Thrakkas as their countries start to lift social distancing restrictions.

I went with 20 because I'm not sure how many Boyz can reasonably be expected to be able to fight. It may be that more or less can fight; I haven't played with or against any horde factions as of yet in ninth, so I don't know how well they do with the new rules for who can fight in the fight phase.

Maybe you should have lead with this - 20 boyz striking combat is completely unrealistic unless your squad was already surrounded before the boyz moved. Boyz are now a 250 points unit that needs two turns of combat to grind through 100 points of intercessors while taking casualties from them fighting back. A bonebreaka, a fairly inefficient close combat unit, is 180 and has a decent chance to wipe them out in one go before they can fight back.

I don't understand why we can't have an Index this time, too :(

I can wait for the fancy new rules from Commorragh, but I would like to know why my outdated Kabalites, Disintegrators or Vehicles are way more expensive now without waiting for the codex.

 kingheff wrote:
Eldar can do well in 9th, maybe not the best but pretty top tier overall. They will probably have to rely on expert crafters msu style lists but their firepower is still hyper efficient, especially against eilte armies.

Hyper efficient for a xenos army. Pitifully weak and inaccurate when compared to imperials.

Niiru wrote:

 kingheff wrote:
Eldar can do well in 9th, maybe not the best but pretty top tier overall. They will probably have to rely on expert crafters msu style lists but their firepower is still hyper efficient, especially against eilte armies.

Hyper efficient for a xenos army. Pitifully weak and inaccurate when compared to imperials.

Hyper efficient for any army, Craftworlds are still one of the best shooting armies in the game, with probably the best manouvrability of the top shooting factions.

 harlokin wrote:
While I agree that Dissies are efficient vs 2W Marines, they are really expensive now, as are the platforms that can carry them which are fodder for heavy bolters.

...and not exactly abundant. Raider(Transport), Ravager(actual gunboat), and a jet.

If we could still take trueborns the story would be completely different.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimgold wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:Why is it that the loudest voices about Marines are almost universally Eldar?

kinda like sour grapes

More like the pot complaining about the color of the kettle. When people say that xenos have had a rough edition, they are not talking about the eldar. The eldar spent a third of 8th ed wildly overpowered, a third mildly overpowered, and a third as a close runner up the the space marines in terms of win percentage. You know what I have to say about that, good for them, if not for the eldar 8th would have been an IoM circle jerk, well more than it already was. I just wish there was more self awareness amongst eldar players of their relative strength, that they would be a tad more sympathetic towards less successful factions, and less cattish towards other strong factions.

I think the problem here is more that people are conflating all of Aeldari together, especially Ynnari. Ynnari was dominating in the early days with its ridiculous ability. When accounting for pure forces they did much less.

Are old marines really going to be such an issue with 2 wounds? If anything these weapon buffs are actually better for sisters I think and I'm looking forward to 12" flamers and heavy bolters being cool again.

 SagesStone wrote:
Are old marines really going to be such an issue with 2 wounds? If anything these weapon buffs are actually better for sisters I think and I'm looking forward to 12" flamers and heavy bolters being cool again.

Depends on points really.

As many have said, in principle 2 wound *Space Marines* have been a thing for ages.
So if anything, the balance issues would more be for say CSM, GK etc. On the other hand giving something like Devastators an extra wound for 3 points a model seems like a good trade (if they were to mirror the tactical increase). Even the humble assault marine might (*might*) have a spot - with a base AP-1 attack, and two wounds so they don't die if something looks at them. Maybe thats too far - but something odd like vanguard veterans might get through though.

Weapon changes probably matter more. Strangely, if GW add a lot more D2 weapons, the meta might be more hostile to Marines (and, in turn, 3 wound models, vehicles/monsters/characters etc.)

Tbh I think the new MM is going to break the edition unless its around 35-40 points, and possibly even then. Well - it won't break the edition, its just going to be a hard skew against vehicles. Which will hurt certain factions more than others.

Weirdly - if GW gives a lot more guns 2D like the Heavy Bolter, the meta might become more anti-Marine than now. But also potentially more anti-vehice/monster/character.