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Icegoat wrote:
Serious question no hyperbole just straight how is an 8th edition codex using tyranid or eldar or dark eldar or tau player meant to win against marine armies now. Gw seem to place an additional wound at only 20% of a models point value so your now facing a marine army that just doubled its entire wound value. And it only cost the marine player 20%of their points? How do you win? Please tell me.

I know the answer to this one.

Ehm, we dont.

Tyel wrote:

 SagesStone wrote:
Are old marines really going to be such an issue with 2 wounds? If anything these weapon buffs are actually better for sisters I think and I'm looking forward to 12" flamers and heavy bolters being cool again.

Depends on points really.

As many have said, in principle 2 wound *Space Marines* have been a thing for ages.
So if anything, the balance issues would more be for say CSM, GK etc. On the other hand giving something like Devastators an extra wound for 3 points a model seems like a good trade (if they were to mirror the tactical increase). Even the humble assault marine might (*might*) have a spot - with a base AP-1 attack, and two wounds so they don't die if something looks at them. Maybe thats too far - but something odd like vanguard veterans might get through though.

Weapon changes probably matter more. Strangely, if GW add a lot more D2 weapons, the meta might be more hostile to Marines (and, in turn, 3 wound models, vehicles/monsters/characters etc.)

Tbh I think the new MM is going to break the edition unless its around 35-40 points, and possibly even then. Well - it won't break the edition, its just going to be a hard skew against vehicles. Which will hurt certain factions more than others.

Weirdly - if GW gives a lot more guns 2D like the Heavy Bolter, the meta might become more anti-Marine than now. But also potentially more anti-vehice/monster/character.

MMs being able to one shot tanks reasonably reliably is who the gun functioned back before 8th, I think GW simply wanted to revisit Melta's because they went from "hands down the best anti tank weapon avaliab,e albiet short ranged" to "..... why would I take this?"

I'm with Tyel though, I think they overshot the mark on melta. Double shot AND d6+2 is pretty rough, especially since its coming with fast platforms (and already had some).

I don't really want to see 'one volley' tank removal again, even if 'one shot' is technically impossible.

 Togusa wrote:


Boyz still kill marines. I lost half my army to mass boyz today in a game, and while my Bladeguard and Outriders did a good job, they weren't enough to save the game for me. Shoota boyz are amazing at holding objectives now too, which I really like. It was fun trying to assault a squad of 20 in a crater!

If you have trouble shifting a unit that is T4 with a 6+ save your issue isn't how powerful that unit is, its how you are playing (no offense intended). I don't see Space Marine players swooning over how amazing a Whirlewind is, but 250pts of Whirlwinds with Castellan launchers fire 24 S6 shots which result in 11 wounds and about 9 dead Orkz a turn. So in 2 turns you can wipe out that mob of 20 relatively easily. Heck, a LR Crusader can pump out 28 S4 shots and 12 S6 Ap-1 shots a turn which kills about 13-14 boyz a turn, before morale mind you.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:


Before the 2nd codex of 8th edition, they were pretty poor, with some chapters having different mileage. I also seem to remember them being quite poor in 3rd edition, they were far too squishy and instant death absolutely gibbed characters, and well, vehicles were poor in 3rd, this was before hull points remember.

Maybe certain marine builds did okay in third, but marines were not good. It was the first edition terminators were awful.

Marines basically started 8th as the super OP faction. Girlyman gun lines and Storm Ravens flying everywhere were the dominant lists. Marines were brought to NON-OP levels but were still used in top lists with the Loyal 32, after that they went right back to OP Broken nonsense as soon as Codex 2 electric boogaloo got released.

As far as 3rd goes, its been too long for me to remember 100% but I don't remember my Marine buddies having any major problems.

The thing I said was Marines have never gone a full edition as garbage tier, by your own admission they haven't yet either. Orkz on the other hand...7th edition was a nightmare. When we finally got our "super" formation, it was so hamstrung with requirements that by the time you met the minimum there was no points left to get units that actually benefit from the rules you got from taking the stupid thing. Compare that to Marines with their Free "Transports" which always tended to be Razorbacks with lots of guns.

Well, I think Xenos armies don't have a high priority atm.
GW is driven by the sales figures of Marines, especially the Primaris products,
and the sales figures will even rise when Tacticals get 2W and every Marine player will purchase Razorbacks or whatnot.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I think Xenos armies don't have a high priority atm.
GW is driven by the sales figures of Marines, especially the Primaris products,
and the sales figures will even rise when Tacticals get 2W and every Marine player will purchase Razorbacks or whatnot.

Necrons at least are important enough to receive a massive update and expansion of their range together with the first (or second) codex of the edition and being featured in a starter set as well.
My gut feeling is that this edition will be to Xenos what 8th was to Chaos.

And we really need to settle on a narrative. Either GW is making everybody buy their Marine army again in an upscaled version of Primaris and make firstborn weaker on purpose or they buff old marines to make people buy more of them to clear their stock (best one i read here so far ).

Voss wrote:
I'm with Tyel though, I think they overshot the mark on melta. Double shot AND d6+2 is pretty rough, especially since its coming with fast platforms (and already had some).

I don't really want to see 'one volley' tank removal again, even if 'one shot' is technically impossible.

Mathhammer isn't perfect - but I think a lot of people just haven't done the numbers.

On a T7/3+ target, in 12", you do 3.7 times as much damage as a lascannon. At over 12" you do 2.4 times as much. These are not small numbers.

Against say a 5++ Knight (about as bad as it gets for an MM)
Las: 1*2/3*2/3*2/3*3.5=1.037 wounds.
MM 12+ inches: 2*2/3*1/2*2/3*3.5=1.555 wounds. (1.5 times as good.)
MM in 12+ inches: 2*2/3*1/2*2/3*5.5=2.444. So about 2.35 times as good as a lascannon.

The argument goes up that a lascannon has 36" range - but given a smaller table where stuff has to get forward to claim objectives, and vehicles pay no penalty for moving, that's less valuable than before - and doesn't come close to making up these differences in expected output.

I wouldn't mind this "MMs have been terrible forever, they deserve their time in the sun" - but their time in the sun is set to be crazy good compared to other 1 shot D6 damage weapons - unless they see a comparable buff. Or MMs are made really expensive to compensate.

It basically boils down to that Xenos players are less important customers.

You didn't buy the right models, so you don't get the same level of attention and effort from GW for your army.

I would say ~60% of the updates in this game go to Imperium. ~30% go to Chaos and then the remaining ~10% go to Xenos.

So, if you don't like getting improvements to your army and you want to minimize your choices at army creation - Xenos might be for you.

Joking aside, the reality is that buying Xenos models is a huge waste of money because GW won't put the effort into supporting them.

Unless of course said Xenos is necrons.
In which case, they are on the new edition poster and get a stack of shiny new toys.

Not really a comparison though.

While I agree that Xenos lines pale in comparison in terms of updates, the new edition is off to a better start for them than it has been.

Seen countless people pick up necron armies now due to indomitus, which should help show that they really can sell.

I would use BoTP as an example of a pure Xenos set, but between some ancient models and severely over priced new stuff, it hurt more than it helped.

I can't help but think that GW publishing a release schedule for the next 12 months would go some way to reducing the overall vitriol.

 Eldarsif wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
While I agree that Dissies are efficient vs 2W Marines, they are really expensive now, as are the platforms that can carry them which are fodder for heavy bolters.

...and not exactly abundant. Raider(Transport), Ravager(actual gunboat), and a jet.

If we could still take trueborns the story would be completely different.

Why?

Trueborns could never take Disintegrators anyway.

 harlokin wrote:
I can't help but think that GW publishing a release schedule for the next 12 months would go some way to reducing the overall vitriol.

You have more faith then I. Let's say GW published a scheudle and it reads something like "Marines, Necrons, marine supplements, eldar, Guard, Admech, Chaos marines, Orks"

You'd have ork players complaining 12 months is too long and "our codex needs an update nooow" you'd have Tau players complaining they're not even on the list etc.
It'd solve nothing, and to top it off people would likely save their money and impulse buy less.

(I wanna note to Ork and Tau Players I'm just using you guys as an example, not implying Ork and Tau players are extra whiny or something)

BrianDavion wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
I can't help but think that GW publishing a release schedule for the next 12 months would go some way to reducing the overall vitriol.

You have more faith then I. Let's say GW published a scheudle and it reads something like "Marines, Necrons, marine supplements, eldar, Guard, Admech, Chaos marines, Orks"

You'd have ork players complaining 12 months is too long and "our codex needs an update nooow" you'd have Tau players complaining they're not even on the list etc.
It'd solve nothing, and to top it off people would likely save their money and impulse buy less.

(I wanna note to Ork and Tau Players I'm just using you guys as an example, not implying Ork and Tau players are extra whiny or something)

Yup, that's inevitable, but I don't think it changes if the customers don't know (even roughly) when anything is going to be released.

Maybe I'm odd, but if I knew that Drukhari weren't getting a codex till next July, and the only model released over that period would be Lelith Hesperax, I could make an adult decision as to how I want to go forward.

Firstly, we’d have to assume they actually have a year long plan.

Keep in mind that a lot of their releases seem sporadic and out of the blue.

So if that 12 month list didn’t include last chance to buy, limited items etc then people would complain even more.


What I’d like (won’t happen as it would hurt sales) is a list of items they plan on retiring.
Been burned far too many times with models/books that seem great, but from nowhere they just vanish and get retired.

So something like a warning would be good.

However, it impacts sales severely (kind of) so it’s not going to happen.

On one side, players would avoid stuff that’s about to go as it’s useless to them.
On the other, collectors and ebayers would go nuts buying them.

Well, we know (from play testers) that most of the codexes are done. GW don't print in-house so they would have to plan the print runs in advance with whoever is doing it for them, and then shipment storage and distribution, GW obviously manufacture the miniatures themselves, but they have limited capacity, so that would also need to be planned out well in advance.

I genuinely believe that GW have a detailed release plan for at least the next 12 months already.

Oh they may have, but currently, planning anything is destined to fail.
With the on and off lockdowns and changing rules it can easily cripple those plans.

I also think people would get bored.
If I knew nothing was being released for my army in the next year or so, where’s the attraction to play?

The way they drop releases isn’t great, but it does generate some hype.
With a 12 month list that hype would likely die off quickly.

 harlokin wrote:
Well, we know (from play testers) that most of the codexes are done. GW don't print in-house so they would have to plan the print runs in advance with whoever is doing it for them, and then shipment storage and distribution, GW obviously manufacture the miniatures themselves, but they have limited capacity, so that would also need to be planned out well in advance.

I genuinely believe that GW have a detailed release plan for at least the next 12 months already.

If the codexes are done then hopefully we'll see a release schedule similar to 8th, two a month would be great. I hope they don't drag this out.

To pick a paragraph from the WH Community article:

"‘But what about my lovely xenos army?’ we hear you cry. Don’t worry – your weaponry will get the same treatment! While most of their wargear may not be as ubiquitous as the Imperium’s mass-produced arsenal, their weapons will also be looked at too, when each of their codexes comes around."

Park your xeno army for now, and play SM until your codex comes out.
Or, learn how the new rules affect your current army, while getting gunned down. For now. By the time your new codex arrives, you'll have learned new tricks that the SM and Necrons haven't had to.

 vipoid wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
While I agree that Dissies are efficient vs 2W Marines, they are really expensive now, as are the platforms that can carry them which are fodder for heavy bolters.

...and not exactly abundant. Raider(Transport), Ravager(actual gunboat), and a jet.

If we could still take trueborns the story would be completely different.

Why?

Trueborns could never take Disintegrators anyway.

No, but they could take blasters which helped a lot in giving Drukhari some edge, especially since you could load them in a venom and have them fire out of it. A venom with 4 blasters was a decent gun platform.

 Skinnereal wrote:
To pick a paragraph from the WH Community article:

"‘But what about my lovely xenos army?’ we hear you cry. Don’t worry – your weaponry will get the same treatment! While most of their wargear may not be as ubiquitous as the Imperium’s mass-produced arsenal, their weapons will also be looked at too, when each of their codexes comes around."

Park your xeno army for now, and play SM until your codex comes out.
Or, learn how the new rules affect your current army, while getting gunned down. For now. By the time your new codex arrives, you'll have learned new tricks that the SM and Necrons haven't had to.

I like option 2, compete as best as possible and when the new stuff rolls out you'll be in good stead.

Necrons at least are important enough to receive a massive update and expansion of their range together with the first (or second) codex of the edition and being featured in a starter set as well.

Indeed, Necrons will receive an update (and maybe a boost).
But Marines are still the dominating army.
Necrons are a bit one-dimensional if you ask me and players will get bored playing them too soon.

ERJAK wrote:
Lol, because 'terrain attrition' and 'touched a bush and violently exploded killing several of the soldiers inside' are totally the same thing.

Whomever told you that this was a consequence of the HH rules cheated. It is impossible, in the rules, for a vehicle to suffer the Explodes! result on the vehicle damage chart from touching terrain.

It is also not possible for the passengers inside to suffer casualties if the Explodes! result doesn't occur, unless the vehicle's access points are blocked by foes (in which case, the problem appears to be the enemy murdering the passengers as they struggle to extricate themselves from the vehicle, not any sort of detonation).

Also, I hope you engage with me on this one, because this is the 4th thread now where you've outright lied about HH rules surrounding vehicles.

 Skinnereal wrote:
To pick a paragraph from the WH Community article:

"‘But what about my lovely xenos army?’ we hear you cry. Don’t worry – your weaponry will get the same treatment! While most of their wargear may not be as ubiquitous as the Imperium’s mass-produced arsenal, their weapons will also be looked at too, when each of their codexes comes around."

Park your xeno army for now, and play SM until your codex comes out.
Or, learn how the new rules affect your current army, while getting gunned down. For now. By the time your new codex arrives, you'll have learned new tricks that the SM and Necrons haven't had to.

I gotta be honest, that is what is bothering me the most. GW is fine to increase everyone's points for 9th from the start but won't release the new rules/weapons/buffs etc to compensate everyone else's armies until they get their own codex. Which means everyone is forced to go either play Warhammer Space Marine, die numerous times or feth off until your codex drops to have any fair shot at winning.

I'm also a bit worried that people keep saying "GW already has the codex's written" because that same line was said for 8th as well and codex creep was absolutely a thing and the codex's themselves were definitely not balanced against one another as evident by the shenanigans pulled off by Eldar, Marines and Knights who controlled most of 8th edition.

 wuestenfux wrote:

Necrons at least are important enough to receive a massive update and expansion of their range together with the first (or second) codex of the edition and being featured in a starter set as well.

Indeed, Necrons will receive an update (and maybe a boost).
But Marines are still the dominating army.
Necrons are a bit one-dimensional if you ask me and players will get bored playing them too soon.

Yeah, it's also worth noting that we know the rules of a lot of the new necron units...and they're honestly kind of crap.

You've got the big tripod, which is just a Doomsday Ark but worse, the new Spyder thing that is just a Cryptek but easier to target, the new warrior gun which turns them into "Immortals, but bad", the new change to Deathmarks that makes them the same as every other sniper unit in the game (read: less useful for their job than just killing the models next to the offending character and then lobbing a couple anti-tank shots their way to splat them)

So far, compared to what we know marines are getting, the buffs to Necrons have been decidedly pretty meh. Maybe there's some big overhaul to Res Prots that puts crons on the map, but bear in mind Necrons have been solidly the worst army in the game for a while, and the buffs and new units theyre getting are way worse than the buffs and new units marines are getting...and marines are currently the best army in the game.

The points increases would have happened literally either way. That's what happens with Chapter Approved.

This is the important thing for you to take into consideration: these increases? They aren't really representative of what Necrons and Marines will see when their codices drop. They're for what is there now.

These isn't new or earthshattering developments. Chapter Approved comes out, points get raised or lowered or stay the same. Then a codex drops and invalidates those points anyways.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The points increases would have happened literally either way. That's what happens with Chapter Approved.

This is the important thing for you to take into consideration: these increases? They aren't representative of what Necrons and Marines will see when their codices drop. They're for what is there now.

I think it's a pretty safe bet that the new weapon profiles were included in the 9th point values. It does go a long way to explaining why all Power Fist and Chainfist equivalents got set to the same point values (i.e. Killsaws+Power Klaws for orks which are the same weapons) and why Heavy Bolters for example are so pricy.

Im betting marine bodies get more expensive, and marine weapons stay the same as CA2020.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Lol, because 'terrain attrition' and 'touched a bush and violently exploded killing several of the soldiers inside' are totally the same thing.

Whomever told you that this was a consequence of the HH rules cheated. It is impossible, in the rules, for a vehicle to suffer the Explodes! result on the vehicle damage chart from touching terrain.

It is also not possible for the passengers inside to suffer casualties if the Explodes! result doesn't occur, unless the vehicle's access points are blocked by foes (in which case, the problem appears to be the enemy murdering the passengers as they struggle to extricate themselves from the vehicle, not any sort of detonation).

Also, I hope you engage with me on this one, because this is the 4th thread now where you've outright lied about HH rules surrounding vehicles.

So i wasn't just dreaming then and have seen that played out now multiple times?

That's actually something to consider, Scotsman. Especially if the weapons are spread across several factions like we know is the case with the 'Marine weapon buffs' we know are coming to all the Imperium stuff.

 Kanluwen wrote:
That's actually something to consider, Scotsman. Especially if the weapons are spread across several factions like we know is the case with the 'Marine weapon buffs' we know are coming to all the Imperium stuff.

Yeah, there's a reason that (For example) Atalan Incinerators and Heavy Flamers in the GSC list are the exact same point cost despite being, as of now, 8" range Heavy Flamers and 12" range heavy flamers.

They're going to be identical in October.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
That's actually something to consider, Scotsman. Especially if the weapons are spread across several factions like we know is the case with the 'Marine weapon buffs' we know are coming to all the Imperium stuff.

Yeah, there's a reason that (For example) Atalan Incinerators and Heavy Flamers in the GSC list are the exact same point cost despite being, as of now, 8" range Heavy Flamers and 12" range heavy flamers.

They're going to be identical in October.

which is the core issue i guess.