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Jidmah wrote: There would be no issue with giving marines the ability to break certain rules to make them unique if they weren't just breaking all the rule with no drawbacks whatsoever.
Drop pods come with the build-in drawback of having to buy an immobile rhino.
And assemble the damned things.
2020/08/23 10:50:11
Subject: Re:How are xenos armies meant to compete?
Which colors those marines are is as important as which colors the nids are
You think there is no difference between ultramarines or SW? I mean if we go at this from this angle, then we can say that there is no difference between eldar, necron, tyranids either.
thats a bit differant Karol. Ultramarines where not unique in being the subfaction in a codex with the most special characters etc.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Can anyone source these statistics - and show what consideration they made for identifying soup etc?
Are we talking from 17th June to 31st December 2017? Or are we talking 17th June->16th Jun 2018, in which case the figures are bit more "yeah, I can totally see that"?
2020/08/23 11:56:33
Subject: Re:How are xenos armies meant to compete?
Which colors those marines are is as important as which colors the nids are
You think there is no difference between ultramarines or SW? I mean if we go at this from this angle, then we can say that there is no difference between eldar, necron, tyranids either.
I heavily doubt that the difference between an average UM army and an average SW army larger than the difference between a Kronos and Kraken army.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2020/08/23 12:11:07
Subject: Re:How are xenos armies meant to compete?
Which colors those marines are is as important as which colors the nids are
You think there is no difference between ultramarines or SW? I mean if we go at this from this angle, then we can say that there is no difference between eldar, necron, tyranids either.
Different Chapters of MARINES (each being made up of the SAME genetically modified sub-race) with different CULTURES and some differnt naming conventions, plus generous allowance for mutations in one Chapter
vs
Entirely different RACES.
Not the same.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/23 12:11:34
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Which colors those marines are is as important as which colors the nids are
You think there is no difference between ultramarines or SW? I mean if we go at this from this angle, then we can say that there is no difference between eldar, necron, tyranids either.
Different Chapters of MARINES (each being made up of the SAME genetically modified sub-race) with different CULTURES and some differnt naming conventions, plus generous allowance for mutations in one Chapter
vs
Entirely different RACES.
Not the same.
No but when they have different army wide rules, stratagems and at least some different units, lumping them as all the same isn't fair either.
Which colors those marines are is as important as which colors the nids are
You think there is no difference between ultramarines or SW? I mean if we go at this from this angle, then we can say that there is no difference between eldar, necron, tyranids either.
Different Chapters of MARINES (each being made up of the SAME genetically modified sub-race) with different CULTURES and some differnt naming conventions, plus generous allowance for mutations in one Chapter
vs
Entirely different RACES.
Not the same.
No but when they have different army wide rules, stratagems and at least some different units, lumping them as all the same isn't fair either.
Much more difficult to play Necrons as counts as Tau or counts as Eldar.
However playing your Red Spacemarines as Black spacemarine is rediculously easy.
2020/08/24 00:10:28
Subject: Re:How are xenos armies meant to compete?
Which colors those marines are is as important as which colors the nids are
You think there is no difference between ultramarines or SW? I mean if we go at this from this angle, then we can say that there is no difference between eldar, necron, tyranids either.
I heavily doubt that the difference between an average UM army and an average SW army larger than the difference between a Kronos and Kraken army.
Space Wolves and Ultramarines have unique units and stratigiums. so the differance is deeper then a Kronos and Kraken army
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2020/08/24 06:01:15
Subject: Re:How are xenos armies meant to compete?
Which colors those marines are is as important as which colors the nids are
You think there is no difference between ultramarines or SW? I mean if we go at this from this angle, then we can say that there is no difference between eldar, necron, tyranids either.
I heavily doubt that the difference between an average UM army and an average SW army larger than the difference between a Kronos and Kraken army.
Space Wolves and Ultramarines have unique units and stratigiums. so the differance is deeper then a Kronos and Kraken army
That might be true when you are comparing codices, but not that much in an actual game. Most stratagems space wolf players are using are either variants or exact copies of things regular UM can do as well.
In theory, it is possible to make a SW list that plays and feels vastly different than anything UM could do, but reality has SW player mostly use stock units that every marine player has with some SW signature units. In the end, the difference is not smaller or larger than between two nid players running hive fleets focused on different aspects (and thus, unit) of their codex. Or, rephrasing it with an example I know better: A green tide list has overlap with an ork buggy list than any combination of Codex Chapters, SW or BA.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Seeing as you apparently have access to a time machine as you know the points costs and everything else in the new codex, I have to ask- can I have next week's lottery numbers?
farmdesire wrote: Seeing as you apparently have access to a time machine as you know the points costs and everything else in the new codex, I have to ask- can I have next week's lottery numbers?
Ah yes, because making a current comparison of mc wolferson wolfies UwU to a fanboy in armor involves time travel
Which colors those marines are is as important as which colors the nids are
You think there is no difference between ultramarines or SW? I mean if we go at this from this angle, then we can say that there is no difference between eldar, necron, tyranids either.
I heavily doubt that the difference between an average UM army and an average SW army larger than the difference between a Kronos and Kraken army.
Space Wolves and Ultramarines have unique units and stratigiums. so the differance is deeper then a Kronos and Kraken army
But... Because they *have* unique units and strats you can just... take the unique gak out and tada, you've got a separate section in metal boyz codex!
What a completely pointless argument. Obviously SW are more different from UM than two Tyranid sub-factions (and the guy who claimed they mostly use the same units and stratagems is totally wrong), but who even cares anyway?
2020/08/24 07:04:40
Subject: Re:How are xenos armies meant to compete?
That might be true when you are comparing codices, but not that much in an actual game. Most stratagems space wolf players are using are either variants or exact copies of things regular UM can do as well.
In theory, it is possible to make a SW list that plays and feels vastly different than anything UM could do, but reality has SW player mostly use stock units that every marine player has with some SW signature units. In the end, the difference is not smaller or larger than between two nid players running hive fleets focused on different aspects (and thus, unit) of their codex. Or, rephrasing it with an example I know better: A green tide list has overlap with an ork buggy list than any combination of Codex Chapters, SW or BA.
This is actually true for the current state of the armies and simply because of primaris. Primaris are extremely better than older marines and there's only a single primaris unit that is SW related, the character Ragnar Blackmane; anything else it's the exact same unit regardless of the chapter. So, yeah, most of the 8th and 9th edition SM and SW lists are actually very very similar, way more than they used to be in older editions.
I only play old marines so my army is nothing similar to a tipycal modern SM army, but basically I agree with you. Average SM and SW aren't more different than a Deathskullz and an Evil Sunz armies for example.
2020/08/24 07:40:33
Subject: Re:How are xenos armies meant to compete?
Which colors those marines are is as important as which colors the nids are
You think there is no difference between ultramarines or SW? I mean if we go at this from this angle, then we can say that there is no difference between eldar, necron, tyranids either.
Different Chapters of MARINES (each being made up of the SAME genetically modified sub-race) with different CULTURES and some differnt naming conventions, plus generous allowance for mutations in one Chapter
vs
Entirely different RACES.
Not the same.
No but when they have different army wide rules, stratagems and at least some different units, lumping them as all the same isn't fair either.
Much more difficult to play Necrons as counts as Tau or counts as Eldar.
However playing your Red Spacemarines as Black spacemarine is rediculously easy.
What's your point? They're separate rules sets and the results need recording separately, I don’t really care if you're running blue blood angels or w/e, the argument is that codex space marines specifically had the same combined wins as tyranids. Other marine factions need not apply for that argument.
Likewise to all the people saying they share units, yes they do, but again that has no bearing on their results being recorded. Different rules = different data set.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/08/24 07:42:16
2020/08/24 08:47:18
Subject: Re:How are xenos armies meant to compete?
Which colors those marines are is as important as which colors the nids are
You think there is no difference between ultramarines or SW? I mean if we go at this from this angle, then we can say that there is no difference between eldar, necron, tyranids either.
Different Chapters of MARINES (each being made up of the SAME genetically modified sub-race) with different CULTURES and some differnt naming conventions, plus generous allowance for mutations in one Chapter
vs
Entirely different RACES.
Not the same.
No but when they have different army wide rules, stratagems and at least some different units, lumping them as all the same isn't fair either.
Much more difficult to play Necrons as counts as Tau or counts as Eldar.
However playing your Red Spacemarines as Black spacemarine is rediculously easy.
What's your point? They're separate rules sets and the results need recording separately, I don’t really care if you're running blue blood angels or w/e, the argument is that codex space marines specifically had the same combined wins as tyranids. Other marine factions need not apply for that argument.
Likewise to all the people saying they share units, yes they do, but again that has no bearing on their results being recorded. Different rules = different data set.
Because people count all eldar as having the same win rate regardless if thet are Alitoc, Uthwe or Biel Tan.
Why should marine's get to play the only ironhands have 70% win ratio card when they all come from the same codex.
Salamanders, Raven guard, Imperial Fists etc all come from 1 codex and shouldn't get to artificially lower their win ratio by counting mirror matchups. Because guess what when your on both sides of the game your obviously going to look way more balanced than anyone else.
Blue marines fighting Black marines still gives marines a 50% win loss ratio. You dont count internal codex results for a reason (well unless your marines who now have subfaction stats instead for BS reasons).
It's alsp super infuratiing to see all the marine players tell people play a different army if they keep loosing then complain about being told to use their same models with different rules form their own codex.
Seriously it's like they can't see the hypocrisy of their position.
2020/08/24 09:46:59
Subject: Re:How are xenos armies meant to compete?
Which colors those marines are is as important as which colors the nids are
You think there is no difference between ultramarines or SW? I mean if we go at this from this angle, then we can say that there is no difference between eldar, necron, tyranids either.
Different Chapters of MARINES (each being made up of the SAME genetically modified sub-race) with different CULTURES and some differnt naming conventions, plus generous allowance for mutations in one Chapter
vs
Entirely different RACES.
Not the same.
No but when they have different army wide rules, stratagems and at least some different units, lumping them as all the same isn't fair either.
Much more difficult to play Necrons as counts as Tau or counts as Eldar.
However playing your Red Spacemarines as Black spacemarine is rediculously easy.
What's your point? They're separate rules sets and the results need recording separately, I don’t really care if you're running blue blood angels or w/e, the argument is that codex space marines specifically had the same combined wins as tyranids. Other marine factions need not apply for that argument.
Likewise to all the people saying they share units, yes they do, but again that has no bearing on their results being recorded. Different rules = different data set.
Because people count all eldar as having the same win rate regardless if thet are Alitoc, Uthwe or Biel Tan.
Why should marine's get to play the only ironhands have 70% win ratio card when they all come from the same codex.
Salamanders, Raven guard, Imperial Fists etc all come from 1 codex and shouldn't get to artificially lower their win ratio by counting mirror matchups. Because guess what when your on both sides of the game your obviously going to look way more balanced than anyone else.
Blue marines fighting Black marines still gives marines a 50% win loss ratio. You dont count internal codex results for a reason (well unless your marines who now have subfaction stats instead for BS reasons).
It's alsp super infuratiing to see all the marine players tell people play a different army if they keep loosing then complain about being told to use their same models with different rules form their own codex.
Seriously it's like they can't see the hypocrisy of their position.
We're looking at stats from 2017, before there are supplements. Until October dark angels, blood angels, space wolves and deathwatch are separate books with different rules and need to be counted separately.
Come October that might change but given the bredth and diversity of the subfaction specific rules, they should still separate them imo. And no it's not the same as the craftworlds who have 1 strat, 1 warlord trait, 1 relic and maybe 1 character different between subfactions.
In some cases is really hard to justify buying Xenos stuff. There are a lot of models that:
- Have old, ugly Finecast models
- Have no competitive usage
- Their rules are outright boring
Some Xenos Codexes need internal balance, cooler rules to go together with revamped models.
As an example, buying 6 of the old awful Finecast Grotesques for my DE army so GW decides to make plastic kits is not the way to go. It's not worthy or logical from the buyers point of view.
The Bloody Sails
2020/08/24 16:51:07
Subject: Re:How are xenos armies meant to compete?
Which colors those marines are is as important as which colors the nids are
You think there is no difference between ultramarines or SW? I mean if we go at this from this angle, then we can say that there is no difference between eldar, necron, tyranids either.
Different Chapters of MARINES (each being made up of the SAME genetically modified sub-race) with different CULTURES and some differnt naming conventions, plus generous allowance for mutations in one Chapter
vs
Entirely different RACES.
Not the same.
No but when they have different army wide rules, stratagems and at least some different units, lumping them as all the same isn't fair either.
Much more difficult to play Necrons as counts as Tau or counts as Eldar.
However playing your Red Spacemarines as Black spacemarine is rediculously easy.
What's your point? They're separate rules sets and the results need recording separately, I don’t really care if you're running blue blood angels or w/e, the argument is that codex space marines specifically had the same combined wins as tyranids. Other marine factions need not apply for that argument.
Likewise to all the people saying they share units, yes they do, but again that has no bearing on their results being recorded. Different rules = different data set.
Because people count all eldar as having the same win rate regardless if thet are Alitoc, Uthwe or Biel Tan.
Why should marine's get to play the only ironhands have 70% win ratio card when they all come from the same codex.
Salamanders, Raven guard, Imperial Fists etc all come from 1 codex and shouldn't get to artificially lower their win ratio by counting mirror matchups. Because guess what when your on both sides of the game your obviously going to look way more balanced than anyone else.
Blue marines fighting Black marines still gives marines a 50% win loss ratio. You dont count internal codex results for a reason (well unless your marines who now have subfaction stats instead for BS reasons).
It's alsp super infuratiing to see all the marine players tell people play a different army if they keep loosing then complain about being told to use their same models with different rules form their own codex.
Seriously it's like they can't see the hypocrisy of their position.
We're looking at stats from 2017, before there are supplements. Until October dark angels, blood angels, space wolves and deathwatch are separate books with different rules and need to be counted separately.
Come October that might change but given the bredth and diversity of the subfaction specific rules, they should still separate them imo. And no it's not the same as the craftworlds who have 1 strat, 1 warlord trait, 1 relic and maybe 1 character different between subfactions.
They are far far less diverse than people pretend - naming conventions, betraying their allies and having incredably horrible flanderisation (imo) inflicted upon them including a few mutant variants are simply not major diversity - for that you need to look at the Imperial Guard - who have just the one Codex.
For that matter the actual lore of the various Marine Chapters has as much of more variation that the Angels who are (and always have been) according to GW mostly Codex compliant.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/24 16:52:21
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
2: Space Marines and Tyranids getting the same amount of wins at high levels of play can also be an indicator of balance.
I'm counting 63 space marine wins here (ignoring the spiky ones) VS the tyranids' 29. Which colors those marines are is as important as which colors the nids are. But more importantly this is data from a tournament known for employing a set of meta-warping house rules, so it's not representative of actual 40k gameplay balance.
Where? I'm looking at this post, in which Ultramarines (with 23) are separated from Space Marines (with 6), for a total of 29, which is equal to the Nids. I didn't count SW, BA or DA etc. because they are separate codexes.
2017 ITC Data for Armies taking top 3 spots in GT or Major
69 Astra Militarum
59 Ynnari
39 Dark Eldar
39 Daemons
34 Chaos Space Marines
29 Tyranids
31 Imperial Knights
25 Eldar
23 Ultramarines
21 T’au Empire
22 Orks
17 Thousand Sons
14 Death Guard
12 Genestealer Cults
11 Adeptus Custodes
8 Sisters of Battle
8 Harlequins
8 Blood Angels
8 Grey Knights
8 Adeptus Mechanicus
6 Space Marines
5 Necrons
4 Deathwatch
3 Officio Assassinorum
2 Renegade Knights
2 Space Wolves
2 Dark Angels
To get 63 you have to add in Deathwatch and Grey Knights on top of the others, which. . . doesn't seem at all relevant? Different organizations, different squad structures, different equipment, different stratagems, etc. etc. etc.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/24 16:56:15
Which colors those marines are is as important as which colors the nids are
You think there is no difference between ultramarines or SW? I mean if we go at this from this angle, then we can say that there is no difference between eldar, necron, tyranids either.
Different Chapters of MARINES (each being made up of the SAME genetically modified sub-race) with different CULTURES and some differnt naming conventions, plus generous allowance for mutations in one Chapter
vs
Entirely different RACES.
Not the same.
No but when they have different army wide rules, stratagems and at least some different units, lumping them as all the same isn't fair either.
Much more difficult to play Necrons as counts as Tau or counts as Eldar.
However playing your Red Spacemarines as Black spacemarine is rediculously easy.
What's your point? They're separate rules sets and the results need recording separately, I don’t really care if you're running blue blood angels or w/e, the argument is that codex space marines specifically had the same combined wins as tyranids. Other marine factions need not apply for that argument.
Likewise to all the people saying they share units, yes they do, but again that has no bearing on their results being recorded. Different rules = different data set.
Because people count all eldar as having the same win rate regardless if thet are Alitoc, Uthwe or Biel Tan.
Why should marine's get to play the only ironhands have 70% win ratio card when they all come from the same codex.
Salamanders, Raven guard, Imperial Fists etc all come from 1 codex and shouldn't get to artificially lower their win ratio by counting mirror matchups. Because guess what when your on both sides of the game your obviously going to look way more balanced than anyone else.
Blue marines fighting Black marines still gives marines a 50% win loss ratio. You dont count internal codex results for a reason (well unless your marines who now have subfaction stats instead for BS reasons).
It's alsp super infuratiing to see all the marine players tell people play a different army if they keep loosing then complain about being told to use their same models with different rules form their own codex.
Seriously it's like they can't see the hypocrisy of their position.
We're looking at stats from 2017, before there are supplements. Until October dark angels, blood angels, space wolves and deathwatch are separate books with different rules and need to be counted separately.
Come October that might change but given the bredth and diversity of the subfaction specific rules, they should still separate them imo. And no it's not the same as the craftworlds who have 1 strat, 1 warlord trait, 1 relic and maybe 1 character different between subfactions.
They are far far less diverse than people pretend - naming conventions, betraying their allies and having incredably horrible flanderisation (imo) inflicted upon them including a few mutant variants are simply not major diversity - for that you need to look at the Imperial Guard - who have just the one Codex.
For that matter the actual lore of the various Marine Chapters has as much of more variation that the Angels who are (and always have been) according to GW mostly Codex compliant.
Tourney result tables aren't based on the level of ethical and social distance from other factions in the fluff though.
That might be true when you are comparing codices, but not that much in an actual game. Most stratagems space wolf players are using are either variants or exact copies of things regular UM can do as well.
In theory, it is possible to make a SW list that plays and feels vastly different than anything UM could do, but reality has SW player mostly use stock units that every marine player has with some SW signature units. In the end, the difference is not smaller or larger than between two nid players running hive fleets focused on different aspects (and thus, unit) of their codex. Or, rephrasing it with an example I know better: A green tide list has overlap with an ork buggy list than any combination of Codex Chapters, SW or BA.
That's really not accurate though. You picked probably the two worst marine armies to use for the purposes of that specific comparison. Your average SW army looks absolutely nothing like your average UM army and the strats they're using? Completely, significantly different.
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
2020/08/24 17:30:22
Subject: Re:How are xenos armies meant to compete?
Tycho wrote: Your average SW army looks absolutely nothing like your average UM army and the strats they're using? Completely, significantly different.
Your average Kraken army looks nothing like your average Kronos army, and the stratagems they're using are completely different.
Tycho wrote: Your average SW army looks absolutely nothing like your average UM army and the strats they're using? Completely, significantly different.
Your average Kraken army looks nothing like your average Kronos army, and the stratagems they're using are completely different.
Not really seeing your point here.
Yeah, i dont get why people are hell-bent on counting chapters as individual armies yet all the other codexes are being clumped as one.
Biel-tan and Saim-hann are nothing alike
Farsight enclaves and bor'kan are nothing alike
Nephrek and Nihilak are nothing alike
etc. etc.
2020/08/24 17:46:34
Subject: Re:How are xenos armies meant to compete?
Your average Kraken army looks nothing like your average Kronos army, and the stratagems they're using are completely different.
Not really seeing your point here.
That's because I accidentally posted before I finished my thought.
I was going to add "but that's me being pedantic and I don't think it hurts the point you were trying to make"
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
2: Space Marines and Tyranids getting the same amount of wins at high levels of play can also be an indicator of balance.
I'm counting 63 space marine wins here (ignoring the spiky ones) VS the tyranids' 29. Which colors those marines are is as important as which colors the nids are. But more importantly this is data from a tournament known for employing a set of meta-warping house rules, so it's not representative of actual 40k gameplay balance.
Where? I'm looking at this post, in which Ultramarines (with 23) are separated from Space Marines (with 6), for a total of 29, which is equal to the Nids. I didn't count SW, BA or DA etc. because they are separate codexes.
2017 ITC Data for Armies taking top 3 spots in GT or Major
69 Astra Militarum
59 Ynnari
39 Dark Eldar
39 Daemons
34 Chaos Space Marines
29 Tyranids
31 Imperial Knights
25 Eldar
23 Ultramarines
21 T’au Empire
22 Orks
17 Thousand Sons
14 Death Guard
12 Genestealer Cults
11 Adeptus Custodes
8 Sisters of Battle
8 Harlequins
8 Blood Angels
8 Grey Knights
8 Adeptus Mechanicus
6 Space Marines
5 Necrons
4 Deathwatch
3 Officio Assassinorum
2 Renegade Knights
2 Space Wolves
2 Dark Angels
To get 63 you have to add in Deathwatch and Grey Knights on top of the others, which. . . doesn't seem at all relevant? Different organizations, different squad structures, different equipment, different stratagems, etc. etc. etc.
I'm not getting 63 even if you do that - loyalist SM (of any form) in that list are:
23 Ultramarines
8 Blood Angels
8 Grey Knights
6 Space Marines
4 Deathwatch
2 Space Wolves
2 Dark Angels
I get that to be 53, though I'll allow for the 6 to be a typo. And, in the time frame those stats were looking at, only Ultramarines and Space Marines can be said to be using the same Codex - I assume Ultras are split out to show the impact of Guilliman at the time.
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
2020/08/24 18:12:44
Subject: Re:How are xenos armies meant to compete?
Ice_can wrote: Because people count all eldar as having the same win rate regardless if thet are Alitoc, Uthwe or Biel Tan.
Why should marine's get to play the only ironhands have 70% win ratio card when they all come from the same codex.
When Alaitoc was the biggest cheese on the block there were absolutely Eldar players still whining about how the rest of their codex wasn't up to snuff and shouldn't be judged by Alaitoc's performance. Don't get me wrong, both sides are being hypocritical here, it's just disingenuous to pretend it's a spehss mahreen only problem.
I'm not getting 63 even if you do that - loyalist SM (of any form) in that list are:
23 Ultramarines
8 Blood Angels
8 Grey Knights
6 Space Marines
4 Deathwatch
2 Space Wolves
2 Dark Angels
I get that to be 53, though I'll allow for the 6 to be a typo. And, in the time frame those stats were looking at, only Ultramarines and Space Marines can be said to be using the same Codex - I assume Ultras are split out to show the impact of Guilliman at the time.
Haha, no I just copied the 63 from the other guy. But yeah, presumably UM was split to show Guilliman.
The Bloody Sails 
