Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

My themed black templars list runs 3 crusader land raiders. It has done incredibly well in my local area because 2 are filled with 2x5 obspec troops and one has 5 terms with ss/th and t1 they get a 4++ thanks to black templar relic. Start with a single five man team in 2 of the raiders and the terms in the 3rd. The other 2 5 man teams hide behind the raiders where they can't be targeted. If my opponent does kill 1 raider there is still enough transport capacity in the other 2 to get all the troops up the field, and if i go first I can load the 2 teams up and really spread out some.

In 9th they are durable, fast enough to get to mid board objectives, put out a ton of shots, and even if i lose 1 t1 there are still 2 of them there doing their thing. Should every one run 3? No. But they can be quite interesting to play with and will freak your opponent out lol.



Alternatively you can easily get one at -1 to hit if chaos (mark of nurgle and spell or dark apostle) making them harder to deal with as they stand out in the open and do their thing. You can even give them a 5+++ as death guard now. Mathhammer yes they are not the best. But don't underestimate these guys.

 Jidmah wrote:

Breton wrote:
As an orc player you don’t have the T8 2+ no invuln LR equivalent we’re talking about, And if you’re not worried about half the army using what basically amounts to a huge move shortcut on the first half of turn 1...that sounds like more of a balance issue than an alpha strike land raiders issue.

Funny, people kept telling me that battlewagons are ork landraiders for the last ten years. I guess it doesn't fit the narrative now.

In some ways they are, in some ways they’re not thus the T8 2+ no invuln tank qualities chosen for “equivalent”. The big model ground transport qualities would make them an equivalent.

Breton wrote:


In some ways they are, in some ways they’re not thus the T8 2+ no invuln tank qualities chosen for “equivalent”. The big model ground transport qualities would make them an equivalent.

Well the full kitted gun wagon is basically the LR equivalent. Lots of firepower, similar amount of points, stats and transport capacity. It's 50ish points cheaper because it's BS5+ and 4+ save. The cheapest weapon isn't as it's basically a transport with CC abilities, no firepower, and it's almost 50% cheaper than a LR.

 Blackie wrote:

Breton wrote:


In some ways they are, in some ways they’re not thus the T8 2+ no invuln tank qualities chosen for “equivalent”. The big model ground transport qualities would make them an equivalent.

Well the full kitted gun wagon is basically the LR equivalent. Lots of firepower, similar amount of points, stats and transport capacity. It's 50ish points cheaper because it's BS5+ and 4+ save. The cheapest weapon isn't as it's basically a transport with CC abilities, no firepower, and it's almost 50% cheaper than a LR.

Maybe Army Builder is off, but I can't make a Gun Wagon for even 200 points(70%), let alone 300. The Battle Wagon (T7 not T8)comes in at about 230, or 80% or so of a Land Raider/Repulsor. A LR/Repulsor is going to cost you about 35 obsec wounds. SM can't do that very often. They also have no cheap T8 to go with it say making Terminators/Aggressors and/or Gravis T8. S/T 8 is - I believe - a cut off both due to the rules and psychology. I'd guess most of us divide weapons/Targets into four categories -

Infantry - targets for basic guns like Lasrifles/bolters/etc
Elite Infantry - Grav/Plasma/etc
Light vehicles - Plasma/Grav/etc
Heavy Tanks/Vehicles - Las/Melta/etc

Obviously most people will more readily "downgrade" a weapon category before they "upgrade" i.e. they'll use S8 on T7 before they'll use S7 on T8. This means all the S8+ weapons are reserved for T8 targets barring some really wonky tactics requiring immediacy. When you only have one T8 target in your army, it might as well come with a big flashing light that spells out Shoot Me First in morse code.

SM/Necrons/Custodes/GK/SM Type Armies only really have the expensive LR/Repulsor
IG have multiple moderate priced Leman Russ plus the LOW Swords/Blades/Hammers.
Orks have moderate priced T8, plus the -anauts.
Tau and Eldar don't really have any T8 to be on the island by itself to begin with and "real" anti-tank is already checking down to secondary targets.
Sisters T8 is cheap.
Nids are in similar shape as IG - their T8 is moderately priced.
Knights are almost entirely T8 and have the issue in reverse - their T7 is going to be sucking up all the bolter shells because what else will you shoot at so they get plinked to death.

These T8 Heavy Vehicles need to either be moderate enough in cost (Leman Russ style) you can field a few and still field a balanced army, insanely durable(invulns, FNP, etc), or have a cheap enough T8 "screeen" there will be a couple units of them out there making you think twice about a focus fire (i.e. the T8 heavy infantry Termies/Aggressors).

A battlewagon can be made T8 at the cost of open topped.

A stock gun wagon with Kill kannon is 175 points. Take 4 big shootas and a lobba and it's 215 points. Grabbin klaw and grot riggers puts it at 225. 60-65 (cause the klaw is useless) points cheaper than the tipycal LR Crusader I field. But also eats up a CP to work, it's gargabe without Da Boomer kustom job. The better BS, armor and weapons plus the spared CP are absolutely worthy of that +60ish points.

Upgrading T7 to T8 doesn't cost points on BW, just the open topped special rule.

 Blackie wrote:
A stock gun wagon with Kill kannon is 175 points. Take 4 big shootas and a lobba and it's 215 points. Grabbin klaw and grot riggers puts it at 225. 60-65 (cause the klaw is useless) points cheaper than the tipycal LR Crusader I field. But also eats up a CP to work, it's gargabe without Da Boomer kustom job. The better BS, armor and weapons plus the spared CP are absolutely worthy of that +60ish points.

Upgrading T7 to T8 doesn't cost points on BW, just the open topped special rule.

Eh, anything but the upgraded killkannon, grot riggers and maybe spending the last 5-15 points on big shootas are trash upgrades that no one would ever use though. So in reality a boomer wagon is 180.

 Jidmah wrote:
A battlewagon can be made T8 at the cost of open topped.

And it's still at worst medium priced not expensive. A Leman Russ is 170ish after rounding/fudging. That's a much smaller percentage of army than a 300 point Land Raider and you can easily have multiples of T8 on the board, and on opposite sides of the board all but forcing split fire from s8+

The gunwagon is a trash unit that can be ok by paying 1 CP. It's not something that players want to spam, or even a choice among the top performing lists. Sure it's cheaper than a LR but it's not a much better unit overall. Between the Gunwagon and the LR I'd always prefer the LR, which is basically what I usually do and have done in 8th: I always bring the LR Crusader with my SW and only sometimes my Da Boomer. The latter exists only since march 2020, before SotB litterally no one even considered bringing a gunwagon.

SM can spam cheap T7 quite easily though. Razorbacks for example are 120 points, two of them are extremely more resilient than a single battlewagon and also have a significant amount of firepower. They even don't eat up precious slots as they're just dedicated transports.

Predators, flyers, dreads... plenty of not too expensive armored units that add redundancy for a LR.

Breton wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
A battlewagon can be made T8 at the cost of open topped.

And it's still at worst medium priced not expensive. A Leman Russ is 170ish after rounding/fudging. That's a much smaller percentage of army than a 300 point Land Raider and you can easily have multiples of T8 on the board, and on opposite sides of the board all but forcing split fire from s8+

Oh, I agree with the rest of your post, I just wanted to correct this.

As for the T8 thing, it really works a bit differently for orks than it does for guard. You can just flood the board with any mix of bikes, artillery and koptas(T5), buggies(T6), MANz(T4), dreads, trukks(T7), wagons(T7/8) and nauts(T8) and still archive target saturation because almost all of the high powered weapons have a similar efficiency against all of these. Most of my better opponents actually have stopped killing nauts or wagons first, because there is a chance that these will survive the turn thanks to the KFF, while the same amount of firepower will definitely kill two or more buggies or clear a unit of MANz from an objective.
Unlike guard, orks are build around glass cannons instead of durability so easy and secure kills are better than an optimal use of your guns.

 Jidmah wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
A battlewagon can be made T8 at the cost of open topped.

And it's still at worst medium priced not expensive. A Leman Russ is 170ish after rounding/fudging. That's a much smaller percentage of army than a 300 point Land Raider and you can easily have multiples of T8 on the board, and on opposite sides of the board all but forcing split fire from s8+

Oh, I agree with the rest of your post, I just wanted to correct this.

As for the T8 thing, it really works a bit differently for orks than it does for guard. You can just flood the board with any mix of bikes, artillery and koptas(T5), buggies(T6), MANz(T4), dreads, trukks(T7), wagons(T7/8) and nauts(T8) and still archive target saturation because almost all of the high powered weapons have a similar efficiency against all of these. Most of my better opponents actually have stopped killing nauts or wagons first, because there is a chance that these will survive the turn thanks to the KFF, while the same amount of firepower will definitely kill two or more buggies or clear a unit of MANz from an objective.
Unlike guard, orks are build around glass cannons instead of durability so easy and secure kills are better than an optimal use of your guns.

That's the wonky tactical thing. And T8 with invuln is part of my point and three options that make T8 work.16 T8 2+ wounds is 5 lascannon damage rolls, is 6.5ish hits is about 10 shots. 4/6/9 with Dev Doctrine. So, no unless/until they add more targets or more survivability to the Land Raider it's not going to be good this edition.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Why would the iron-bulwark specifically designed to transport them be less durable to anti tank weapons?

Why would the tank be less durable to anti-tank weapon than some infantry?
It's right there, in the name. Anti-tank.

Are you suggesting that an anti tank round would not also destroy an infantry? That is silly.

The Land Raider was designed to get a powerful squad from your force where it needs to be, and provide support fire. If your squad inside does not pack a big punch, then don't take the Land Raider. I had great success with a Land Raider Redeemer, 3 Rhinos in a Space Wolves list back in the day in 5th edition. If they bring the assault transport rules back that would be amazing and another option to really get into assault instead of teleporting your Terminators. You can still get charges in nowadays, its just slightly more difficult to do and requires patience, unless your against an aggressive opponent.

Breton wrote:

So, no unless/until they add more targets or more survivability to the Land Raider it's not going to be good this edition.

This is true for every tank/big model in the game though. One or two are easy to kill, you always need target saturation. And SM have tons of effective and not so expensive units that can do so.

 Crusaderobr wrote:
The Land Raider was designed to get a powerful squad from your force where it needs to be, and provide support fire. If your squad inside does not pack a big punch, then don't take the Land Raider. I had great success with a Land Raider Redeemer, 3 Rhinos in a Space Wolves list back in the day in 5th edition. If they bring the assault transport rules back that would be amazing and another option to really get into assault instead of teleporting your Terminators. You can still get charges in nowadays, its just slightly more difficult to do and requires patience, unless your against an aggressive opponent.

In 5th edition you had Armor Value, Glance/Pen, engine/weapon destroyed etc - vehicles had on-average higher survivability across the board. 10 lascanon shots might not only not destroy the vehicle, it might not even meaningfully damage it.

Blackie wrote: This is true for every tank/big model in the game though. One or two are easy to kill, you always need target saturation. And SM have tons of effective and not so expensive units that can do so.

Oh? What cheap but dangerous T8 units do Space Marines have that could pull rate of S8+ fire off of a Land Raider/Repulsor? Anything less than T8 is getting plasma/etc not lascanons or melta.

Breton wrote:

Oh? What cheap but dangerous T8 units do Space Marines have that could pull rate of S8+ fire off of a Land Raider/Repulsor? Anything less than T8 is getting plasma/etc not lascanons or melta.

As Jidsmah explained before, you don't need multiple T8 bodies to have armor redundancy. Spamming T5, T6, T7 and T8 models all together works for ork players, it could work for SM as well. It's in fact what I'm already doing with my SW and I've done it in the entire 8th edition. Lascannons don't care if a model is T6, T7 or T8. Meltas definitely like to wound on 3s so T7 and lower armor models could still be juicy targets for them.

It's before that, like in 7th, that my vehicles were nothing but drop pods.

 Blackie wrote:

Breton wrote:

Oh? What cheap but dangerous T8 units do Space Marines have that could pull rate of S8+ fire off of a Land Raider/Repulsor? Anything less than T8 is getting plasma/etc not lascanons or melta.

As Jidsmah explained before, you don't need multiple T8 bodies to have armor redundancy. Spamming T5, T6, T7 and T8 models all together works for ork players, it could work for SM as well. It's in fact what I'm already doing with my SW and I've done it in the entire 8th edition. Lascannons don't care if a model is T6, T7 or T8. Meltas definitely like to wound on 3s so T7 and lower armor models could still be juicy targets for them.

It's before that, like in 7th, that my vehicles were nothing but drop pods.

And as I pointed out if T8 is on the board S8+ is gunning for them first. T7 is secondary target saturation for S8+. Jidsmah even admitted that as part of his point because his T8 has an invuln -
1) Only the "good" players are skipping the T8 invuln and the thus less than good players are still plinking at his T8.
2) They're only doing this because the invuln makes targeting the T8 less attractive - which is again my point: LR will not be "good" until they're less attractive to shoot at or something else is as attractive.
3) SM players cannot spam T8 models. It will be hard enough to spam T7 models because of FOC and points restrictions - Rhino hull variants do not squadron anymore, you can't get 3 Predators for one HS choice, Brigades cap at 3HS meaning if you fill the other two with Preds that's no Hellblasters or Devs, and Elites were already overstocked.
3) None of those T8 helpers will apply to a Space Marine army throwing down a single T8 model without an invuln.

Breton wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

Breton wrote:

Oh? What cheap but dangerous T8 units do Space Marines have that could pull rate of S8+ fire off of a Land Raider/Repulsor? Anything less than T8 is getting plasma/etc not lascanons or melta.

As Jidsmah explained before, you don't need multiple T8 bodies to have armor redundancy. Spamming T5, T6, T7 and T8 models all together works for ork players, it could work for SM as well. It's in fact what I'm already doing with my SW and I've done it in the entire 8th edition. Lascannons don't care if a model is T6, T7 or T8. Meltas definitely like to wound on 3s so T7 and lower armor models could still be juicy targets for them.

It's before that, like in 7th, that my vehicles were nothing but drop pods.

And as I pointed out if T8 is on the board S8+ is gunning for them first. T7 is secondary target saturation for S8+. Jidsmah even admitted that as part of his point because his T8 has an invuln -
1) Only the "good" players are skipping the T8 invuln and the thus less than good players are still plinking at his T8.
2) They're only doing this because the invuln makes targeting the T8 less attractive - which is again my point: LR will not be "good" until they're less attractive to shoot at or something else is as attractive.
3) SM players cannot spam T8 models. It will be hard enough to spam T7 models because of FOC and points restrictions - Rhino hull variants do not squadron anymore, you can't get 3 Predators for one HS choice, Brigades cap at 3HS meaning if you fill the other two with Preds that's no Hellblasters or Devs, and Elites were already overstocked.
3) None of those T8 helpers will apply to a Space Marine army throwing down a single T8 model without an invuln.

This is a gross misrepresentation of what I said. All my vehicles have a 6++ save and most of them tend to be underneath the KFF umbrella for a 5++.
1) People are not shooting my T8 models because they have tons of wounds and S8 weaponry has a 50/50 chance to bounce of that toughness. If you deal 14 damage to a boomer wagon or morkanaut, you have archived nothing for a huge investment. And even if you down a transport wagon with MANz inside, you have already spent much of the shooting that is good at killing MANz. If you shoot the same weapons at buggies, you are almost guaranteed to take out two or three of them, which will knock out tons of shooting and possibly a melee threat.
2) Land Raiders still have 2+ armor, while ork armor is usually 4+ unless it's a walker. Against plasma, battle cannons, lascannons, autocannons, destroyers and many other multi-damage weapons this tends to be the same or better. You also don't lose a whole a bunch of wounds by random stubbers shooting a land raider.
3) You didn't understand him, or me, correctly. You are not supposed to spam T7 and T8 models. You are supposed to spam multi-wound models. Gravis units, terminators, land speeders, primaris bikes work just as well as other vehicles. The landraider will either draw significant amount of fire from those units who are weak to the very same weaponry, or it will not and be able to operate unhindered. However, I can imagine that this might not work well because marines pay more points per wound and therefore can't put enough wounds on the table.
4) You can't expect a drop a model with no synergy to the rest of your army into it and hope for it to do well. Invulnerable saves have nothing to do with this.

In the end, it boils down to the landraider simply paying too much for what it does. It's ability to transport terminators is nearly worthless due to no-risk deep strikes and the loss of the assault ramp, and four lascannons plus two heavy bolters simply aren't worth 285 points. That's almost the same price as a morkanaut which has vastly better shooting, deadly melee and a KFF to protect nearby units, comparing it to a repulsor executioner seems like a bad joke.
And it's not the durability that's causing the problems. My Death Guard can have a landraider with 2+/5++/5+++ and it's still a waste of points, because all you get for all these points is four lascannons. A quad las pred is 170, a landraider should be no more than 220, probably less because the predator sucks as well and should not be used as a benchmark.

You cannot spam predators but you can spam razorbacks. With dreads and flyers you'll have tons of vehicles to provide target saturation for a LR. I'm not even counting all the possible T5+ multiwounds models SM have in their roster.

It is very possible to 1-shot a LR, although it's not always automatic outside tournament level gaming. If it happens it means I have my Stormfang Gunship and 3 Razorbacks alive. A good tradeoff.

If the LR is alive because the opponent gunned down other vehicles I have its 40 anti infantry shots, plus wulfen and the other 5-6 embarked dudes get closer to the action.

The LR simply doesn't have many synergy with lots of SM builds, especially those ones who rely on the most recent stuff and pointwise it's definitely not among the best units available in uber-competitive codexes like SM ones. It doesn't mean it needs and invuln or it's a trash unit.

 Jidmah wrote:


This is a gross misrepresentation of what I said. All my vehicles have a 6++ save and most of them tend to be underneath the KFF umbrella for a 5++.
1) People are not shooting my T8 models because they have tons of wounds and S8 weaponry has a 50/50 chance to bounce of that toughness. If you deal 14 damage to a boomer wagon or morkanaut, you have archived nothing for a huge investment. And even if you down a transport wagon with MANz inside, you have already spent much of the shooting that is good at killing MANz. If you shoot the same weapons at buggies, you are almost guaranteed to take out two or three of them, which will knock out tons of shooting and possibly a melee threat.
2) Land Raiders still have 2+ armor, while ork armor is usually 4+ unless it's a walker. Against plasma, battle cannons, lascannons, autocannons, destroyers and many other multi-damage weapons this tends to be the same or better. You also don't lose a whole a bunch of wounds by random stubbers shooting a land raider.
3) You didn't understand him, or me, correctly. You are not supposed to spam T7 and T8 models. You are supposed to spam multi-wound models. Gravis units, terminators, land speeders, primaris bikes work just as well as other vehicles. The landraider will either draw significant amount of fire from those units who are weak to the very same weaponry, or it will not and be able to operate unhindered. However, I can imagine that this might not work well because marines pay more points per wound and therefore can't put enough wounds on the table.
4) You can't expect a drop a model with no synergy to the rest of your army into it and hope for it to do well. Invulnerable saves have nothing to do with this.

In the end, it boils down to the landraider simply paying too much for what it does. It's ability to transport terminators is nearly worthless due to no-risk deep strikes and the loss of the assault ramp, and four lascannons plus two heavy bolters simply aren't worth 285 points. That's almost the same price as a morkanaut which has vastly better shooting, deadly melee and a KFF to protect nearby units, comparing it to a repulsor executioner seems like a bad joke.
And it's not the durability that's causing the problems. My Death Guard can have a landraider with 2+/5++/5+++ and it's still a waste of points, because all you get for all these points is four lascannons. A quad las pred is 170, a landraider should be no more than 220, probably less because the predator sucks as well and should not be used as a benchmark.

1) So they're going to shoot at it with something that has a 67% to bounce off instead?
2) Melta is -4. Lascannon is -3 (-4 with Dev Discipline) A 2+ -4 is.. a wound the same as your 4+ Just without an invuln A 2+ vs a lascannon without Dev Discipline is a 6+
3) People are not shooting a T5 Aggressor or Terminator squad with a Multi-melta or Lascannon if a LR/Repulsor is also a viable target when S5 D3D Grav and S7 Rapid Fire Plasma will do them just fine.
4) The fact that a Landraider or Repulsor doesn't have any target priority synergy with the rest of the army and that's why it won't be good is pretty much my point. If you throw down a LR or Repulsor very little ends up in the same primary target bucket it does. In a Primaris-only world nothing does. The only other T8 that I can think of in a SM world is the Ironclad Dread and the Vindicator. The Ironclad Dread is slow, and short/medium ranged at best. It's still a primary target, but it's easily in line behind a LR/Repulsor, AND it's in the Elites slot, Vindicators did get better, but they have the same problem as the Predators being in the Heavy Support Slot.

Making Terminators/Aggressors/Gravis(maybe?) T8 2+ no invuln(unless Storm Shield) would actually be nice and solve more than a few problems - you've got target priority synergy, and you restore Termies to something other than lasgun pincushions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:
You cannot spam predators but you can spam razorbacks. With dreads and flyers you'll have tons of vehicles to provide target saturation for a LR. I'm not even counting all the possible T5+ multiwounds models SM have in their roster.

The game has definite thresholds/brackets built into at S/T 4, 7, and 8. Spamming 7 expecting it to save 8 isn't going to work very well.

It is very possible to 1-shot a LR, although it's not always automatic outside tournament level gaming. If it happens it means I have my Stormfang Gunship and 3 Razorbacks alive. A good tradeoff.

The guns prioritizing LR on turn 1 are unlikely to be the same ones prioritizing T7 razorbacks

If the LR is alive because the opponent gunned down other vehicles I have its 40 anti infantry shots, plus wulfen and the other 5-6 embarked dudes get closer to the action.

If they roll all 1's you can have it all. If you're loading the LR with troops its even more of a fire magnet, you'll get to blow up the landraider, one or two dudes inside, and leave them stuck on their own side of the board.

The LR simply doesn't have many synergy with lots of SM builds, especially those ones who rely on the most recent stuff and pointwise it's definitely not among the best units available in uber-competitive codexes like SM ones. It doesn't mean it needs and invuln or it's a trash unit.

Again, not having synergy in the target priority matrix is exactly my point. I didn't say it was trash, I said it won't be "good" until that's fixed. And it's not good. 3 Razorbacks (2 TLLC, and 1 TLHB) replicates the firepower (of the normal LR) is only slightly more expensive, and is 3 units with nearly double the wounds spamming the T7 target bucket instead of 1 on an island in the T8 bucket. The only benefit the LR has over that is carrying Terminators especially now that POTMS is redunant/gone (assuming it stays gone which I doubt).

Breton wrote:
2) Melta is -4. Lascannon is -3 (-4 with Dev Discipline) A 2+ -4 is.. a wound the same as your 4+ Just without an invuln A 2+ vs a lascannon without Dev Discipline is a 6+

That's not how the AP works out.

A 2+ Save vs AP -4 ends up at 6+. A 2+ Save vs AP -3 is a 5+.

 Orodhen wrote:

Breton wrote:
2) Melta is -4. Lascannon is -3 (-4 with Dev Discipline) A 2+ -4 is.. a wound the same as your 4+ Just without an invuln A 2+ vs a lascannon without Dev Discipline is a 6+

That's not how the AP works out.

A 2+ Save vs AP -4 ends up at 6+. A 2+ Save vs AP -3 is a 5+.

You're right I missed one. My bad.

Breton wrote:
1) So they're going to shoot at it with something that has a 67% to bounce off instead?
2) Melta is -4. Lascannon is -3 (-4 with Dev Discipline) A 2+ -4 is.. a wound the same as your 4+ Just without an invuln A 2+ vs a lascannon without Dev Discipline is a 6+
3) People are not shooting a T5 Aggressor or Terminator squad with a Multi-melta or Lascannon if a LR/Repulsor is also a viable target when S5 D3D Grav and S7 Rapid Fire Plasma will do them just fine.
4) The fact that a Landraider or Repulsor doesn't have any target priority synergy with the rest of the army and that's why it won't be good is pretty much my point. If you throw down a LR or Repulsor very little ends up in the same primary target bucket it does. In a Primaris-only world nothing does. The only other T8 that I can think of in a SM world is the Ironclad Dread and the Vindicator. The Ironclad Dread is slow, and short/medium ranged at best. It's still a primary target, but it's easily in line behind a LR/Repulsor, AND it's in the Elites slot, Vindicators did get better, but they have the same problem as the Predators being in the Heavy Support Slot.

1) No, they simply don't shoot it. You can't kill everything in turn one, there are ways to handle units without killing them, and there always is the option to ignore units. Four out of five games, my boomer wagon ends the game without being shot at by a single anti-tank weapon. Just because lascannons are S9 doesn't mean that T8 targets are automatically the best targets for them. The best target is what will cause you the most trouble when left alive - I don't see a landraider being the thing causing the most trouble unless you either have a really weird army composition or you put 300 points worth of deathstar inside it.
2) When you shoot 2+ armor with a AP-3 lascannon that's a 5+ save, just like the KFF. If you shoot it with AP-2, it's better off than any ork vehicle. Space Marines invalidating armor with their doctrines is a problem not unique to landraiders, you can either give every single model in the game invulnerable saves to counteract that or simply remove that gak.
3) So you are saying that 2k points of marines pack enough firepower to wipe out a unit of agressors, a unit of terminators, a landraider and a repulsor in a single turn? Sounds like a problem of it's own, neither orks nor DG remotely come close to that amount of firepower.
4) Yes, I agree. But for orks, that's simply called "list building". If you are aiming for target saturation by flooding the board with T4 infantry, you can't bring vehicles, if you want to run vehicles, keep shootable infantry to a bare minimum. That's how the game has worked for me since 5th edition. No single model will ever survive turn one if it's the only viable target for a certain type of guns.

Making Terminators/Aggressors/Gravis(maybe?) T8 2+ no invuln(unless Storm Shield) would actually be nice and solve more than a few problems - you've got target priority synergy, and you restore Termies to something other than lasgun pincushions.

Why do you keep insisting on T8? Gravis units are T5/3W and all of them are more dangerous than a landraider, so why wouldn't a decent opponent shoot them over your big block that takes lots of guns to take out two pairs of lascannons?
Let's take the infamous eradicators as an example. Would you rather have them melt a landraider or have them shoot those six shots of melta into a unit of agressors/plasma inceptors/other eradicators?

The game has definite thresholds/brackets built into at S/T 4, 7, and 8. Spamming 7 expecting it to save 8 isn't going to work very well.

Well, it does for orks.
Not everyone has multiple weapons with strength of 9 or more, and even if they do, there is a possibility for them to not kill your T8 units. For units like battlewagons or nauts, T8 only serves to reduce the efficiency of most common anti-tank weapons, which in turn either acts as a deterrent against those attacks because they are more efficient at taking out lower toughness models. If they shoot them anyways they kill a lot less points with their expensive guns than they would have by just targeting other models.
For a landraider T8 simply isn't a primary layer of defense for a unit that is guaranteed to get shot like tank commanders or knights.

 Jidmah wrote:

1) No, they simply don't shoot it. You can't kill everything in turn one, there are ways to handle units without killing them, and there always is the option to ignore units. Four out of five games, my boomer wagon ends the game without being shot at by a single anti-tank weapon. Just because lascannons are S9 doesn't mean that T8 targets are automatically the best targets for them. The best target is what will cause you the most trouble when left alive - I don't see a landraider being the thing causing the most trouble unless you either have a really weird army composition or you put 300 points worth of deathstar inside it.
2) When you shoot 2+ armor with a AP-3 lascannon that's a 5+ save, just like the KFF. If you shoot it with AP-2, it's better off than any ork vehicle. Space Marines invalidating armor with their doctrines is a problem not unique to landraiders, you can either give every single model in the game invulnerable saves to counteract that or simply remove that gak.
3) So you are saying that 2k points of marines pack enough firepower to wipe out a unit of agressors, a unit of terminators, a landraider and a repulsor in a single turn? Sounds like a problem of it's own, neither orks nor DG remotely come close to that amount of firepower.
4) Yes, I agree. But for orks, that's simply called "list building". If you are aiming for target saturation by flooding the board with T4 infantry, you can't bring vehicles, if you want to run vehicles, keep shootable infantry to a bare minimum. That's how the game has worked for me since 5th edition. No single model will ever survive turn one if it's the only viable target for a certain type of guns.

Making Terminators/Aggressors/Gravis(maybe?) T8 2+ no invuln(unless Storm Shield) would actually be nice and solve more than a few problems - you've got target priority synergy, and you restore Termies to something other than lasgun pincushions.

Why do you keep insisting on T8? Gravis units are T5/3W and all of them are more dangerous than a landraider, so why wouldn't a decent opponent shoot them over your big block that takes lots of guns to take out two pairs of lascannons?
Let's take the infamous eradicators as an example. Would you rather have them melt a landraider or have them shoot those six shots of melta into a unit of agressors/plasma inceptors/other eradicators?

The game has definite thresholds/brackets built into at S/T 4, 7, and 8. Spamming 7 expecting it to save 8 isn't going to work very well.

Well, it does for orks.

1) They're going to shoot legit Anti Tank at the foot slogging 5" medium range Aggressors far more vulnerable to plasma and grav instead of the 300 point 10" moving land raider?
2) This point wasn't so much about the extra Save Mod, so much as the coerced timing. Dev is only turn one then it's gone. Aggressors are slow and can keep, and the Terminators would save pretty much the same on Turn 2 because of their invuln.
3) No, I'm saying you've got time to wait for the Aggressors, the Terminators are A) Not on the Board because they're deep striking B) The Death Star inside the Land Raider that makes it an even juicier target, or C) As slow as the Aggressors, AND D) better served by massed lower S firepower forcing 1's freeing up the higher AP for the Aggressors.
4) The land raider/Repulsor IS the only viable (primary) target for a certain type of gun at this point, and no amount of "list building" is going to change that.

Not everyone has multiple weapons with strength of 9 or more, and even if they do, there is a possibility for them to not kill your T8 units. For units like battlewagons or nauts, T8 only serves to reduce the efficiency of most common anti-tank weapons, which in turn either acts as a deterrent against those attacks because they are more efficient at taking out lower toughness models. If they shoot them anyways they kill a lot less points with their expensive guns than they would have by just targeting other models.
For a landraider T8 simply isn't a primary layer of defense for a unit that is guaranteed to get shot like tank commanders or knights.

Strength 8 or higher has been my term not S9. S8+. As I've also said multiple times there's a few different S/T plateaus built into the stats and rules, 4, 7, and 8.
S/T 4 is infantry. If they walk on two-ish feet, and go higher than 4 they're usually not a basic infantry but an Elite of some kind.
S/T 5-7 elite infantry and light (to Medium if you prefer) vehicles.
S/T 8 is Tank/AntiTank.

If you've got S3 and S4 weapons, vs T3 targets and T4 weapons, you're going to shoot the S3 against the T3 and S4 against the T4 for the most part. There's a Psychological affect on the 50/50 roll that helps drive this. People are unlikely to waste "real" anti-tank on T5 foot sloggers moving half the speed of the "real" tank on turn 1. Especially when they have Disintegrator Cannons, Star Cannons, (High Yield )Missile Pods, Stranglethorn Cannons, Gauss Cannons, Plasma and/or Grav. They're going to hit the LR with the Bright/Dark -lance, the Melta, the Lascannon, the Heavy Gauss Cannon, Krak and Starshot, Heavy Venom Cannons, Heavy Rail Rifles, Battle Cannons, Am I missing a faction? Demons I suppose but they're freaking weird and I've never seen anyone play them in 40K just fantasy - I suppose I could point to Phlegm bombardments vs a Harvester Cannon. If you look through all the different factions you'll see the same thing repeated with minor tweaks Flat 3D instead of a D6 for example. S5 -3 D3D vs S6 -2 2D vs S7 -4 1D + Overcharge. Even on the S8+ Anti Tank:

36-48+ inch range,
Mutliple Shots,
Higher than S8,
-3 or better AP,
Special rule like Roll 2D6 pick the highest.

and pick 3 Even the "worst" of these the Krak-type missle has what could be considered a special in a Frag-type profile for a special rule. Even the S8 -2 Krak in the right hands gives you 50/50 or better on all three rolls. Most of the rules and human nature just flow this direction. Players will pound S8+ into T8 first because your "50/50" odds of using S8+ on T7 or less are better than trying to use S5-S7 on T8 later.

You just keep repeating your opinion and refuse to consider mine.

Your entire logic is based around your opponent having your landraider as target priority #1 AND you wanting it to survive despite that. As long as a buffed Mortarion doesn't survive being target priority #1, no model will.

There is no point in discussing this any further.

And yes, I shoot rokkits and KMB at aggressors over landraiders. I win games that way.

 Jidmah wrote:
You just keep repeating your opinion and refuse to consider mine.

You mean like ignoring the pattern flow and difference between S/T 5-7 and T8 by continuing to insist spamming units from Target Bracket B will pull shots from Target Bracket C?

Your entire logic is based around your opponent having your landraider as target priority #1 AND you wanting it to survive despite that. As long as a buffed Mortarion doesn't survive being target priority #1, no model will.

Are you refusing to consider what I'm saying, or just misunderstanding it? I don't want it to survive being Target Priority #1 (for that bracket of guns), I want the opponent to have to THINK about what that Target Priority #1 is. I want the reason it's target #1 to be something other than "It's the only primary option"

There is no point in discussing this any further.

I wouldn't argue with that. Its not like you're not ignoring (or rephrasing) what I say (into something I didn't) "either".

And yes, I shoot rokkits and KMB at aggressors over landraiders. I win games that way.

Congratulations on making another point about why Land Riders won't be "good" in the next edition?

OP Question of the Thread wrote:]Will the Land Raider finally be good this edition?

A1: In Fun/Thematic/Story/whatever games No, it will receive disproportional attention from most players, and not last long enough to have any fun with.
A2: In Competitive/whatever games No, If people who know the attention is disproportional leave it alone, it won't perform enough to be "good".

So whatever your definition of "good" is, the answer is no.

"good" or overpowered?

Because units like aggressors are overpowered and need to be prioritized, so are tons of other SM units.

Nerf them, remove the ability of free deep strike from terminators, remove doctrines and LR will be good enough even from your perspective.

LRs aren't bad because of their stats/point costs, they simply aren't among the infamous SM units that make players hate that faction. Put SM on the same level of the majority of the other factions and LRs would benefit.

Breton wrote:

Strength 8 or higher has been my term not S9. S8+. As I've also said multiple times there's a few different S/T plateaus built into the stats and rules, 4, 7, and 8.
S/T 4 is infantry. If they walk on two-ish feet, and go higher than 4 they're usually not a basic infantry but an Elite of some kind.
S/T 5-7 elite infantry and light (to Medium if you prefer) vehicles.
S/T 8 is Tank/AntiTank.

If you've got S3 and S4 weapons, vs T3 targets and T4 weapons, you're going to shoot the S3 against the T3 and S4 against the T4 for the most part. There's a Psychological affect on the 50/50 roll that helps drive this. People are unlikely to waste "real" anti-tank on T5 foot sloggers moving half the speed of the "real" tank on turn 1. Especially when they have Disintegrator Cannons, Star Cannons, (High Yield )Missile Pods, Stranglethorn Cannons, Gauss Cannons, Plasma and/or Grav. They're going to hit the LR with the Bright/Dark -lance, the Melta, the Lascannon, the Heavy Gauss Cannon, Krak and Starshot, Heavy Venom Cannons, Heavy Rail Rifles, Battle Cannons, Am I missing a faction? Demons I suppose but they're freaking weird and I've never seen anyone play them in 40K just fantasy - I suppose I could point to Phlegm bombardments vs a Harvester Cannon. If you look through all the different factions you'll see the same thing repeated with minor tweaks Flat 3D instead of a D6 for example. S5 -3 D3D vs S6 -2 2D vs S7 -4 1D + Overcharge. Even on the S8+ Anti Tank:

36-48+ inch range,
Mutliple Shots,
Higher than S8,
-3 or better AP,
Special rule like Roll 2D6 pick the highest.

and pick 3 Even the "worst" of these the Krak-type missle has what could be considered a special in a Frag-type profile for a special rule. Even the S8 -2 Krak in the right hands gives you 50/50 or better on all three rolls. Most of the rules and human nature just flow this direction. Players will pound S8+ into T8 first because your "50/50" odds of using S8+ on T7 or less are better than trying to use S5-S7 on T8 later.

You shoot what you have at the priority targets. I'll happily plug Eradicators and Obliterators with Lascannons, and I'll happily shoot S5 weapons like Grav Cannons at T8 tanks, Knights etc.

In fact S5 Grav Cannons are actually better than Lascannons against T8.

And Lascannons fired at things like Eradicators, Obliterators, etc. will reduce the opponents return fire faster than firing Lascannons at Land Raiders, which need to take 8 wounds before degrading it's ability. Eradicators can take only 3 wounds before losing 2 Melta shots from their unit.

If the choice is, deal 6 wounds to a Land Raider or 6 wounds to an Eradicator Squad, shooting the Eradicators can make a ton of sense since that's removing 4 melta shots against you next turn, while shooting the Land Raider will change nothing about the opponents capability. Being snooty about firing Lascannons at "infantry" isn't really going to come into it.

 Insectum7 wrote:

You shoot what you have at the priority targets. I'll happily plug Eradicators and Obliterators with Lascannons, and I'll happily shoot S5 weapons like Grav Cannons at T8 tanks, Knights etc.

In fact S5 Grav Cannons are actually better than Lascannons against T8.

And Lascannons fired at things like Eradicators, Obliterators, etc. will reduce the opponents return fire faster than firing Lascannons at Land Raiders, which need to take 8 wounds before degrading it's ability. Eradicators can take only 3 wounds before losing 2 Melta shots from their unit.

If the choice is, deal 6 wounds to a Land Raider or 6 wounds to an Eradicator Squad, shooting the Eradicators can make a ton of sense since that's removing 4 melta shots against you next turn, while shooting the Land Raider will change nothing about the opponents capability. Being snooty about firing Lascannons at "infantry" isn't really going to come into it.

Its maybe removing 4 melta. Melta, like Grav is still 24" so not necessarily in the danger zone on T1 - and rolling a 6 on that Lascannon Damage doesn't remove 6 wounds, it removes 3 and 3 are lost?
S5 Grav is even better at removing T5 right? I absolutely agree these hardened infantry are almost always a more dangerous target than a big heavy tank. My point is also that there are much better options for taking those units down than the big heavy anti-tank weapons.

Honest question, Am I not being clear? I'm not being cheeky, I just keep seeing people argue something I didn't say was wrong.

I didn't say the LR/etc was a more dangerous target.
I didn't say they're going to ignore the Elites to shoot those guns at the tanks.
I didn't say they won't ALSO shoot the Elite Infantry/Light vehicles.

I did say from either direction "friendly" or "competitive" for lack of better categories the LR is not "good" and is unlikely to BE "good" without some sort of change to the target priority bucket it lives in.
I did say they're likely to shoot the Anti-tank (S8+ 3D or D6D etc) at the tank while using the heavy weapons (S5-7 2D or D3D etc) on the elites and light vehicles because they're more efficient at their own primary targets before moving to their secondary.
I did say players are unlikely to shoot antitank at a secondary target like even slower foot slogging elites - especially ones who won't be in gun range on their next turn - if they can shoot at a primary target. (Aggressors at 5" + 18" on a Not-within 24" can be hard pressed to shoot anything on the second half of turn 1.)
I did say they were more likely to fire the Plasma, Grav, etc at those foot slogging elites if in range on Turn 1 than the LR/etc.
I did say there's generally only the one T8 LR/etc on the board for the Anti-tank meaning they're going to generally shoot it at the tank first the elites second.
I did say there were a couple armies "afflicted" like this not just SM, for example Necrons and the Monolith and a couple that just didn't have T8 at all like the Eldar
I did say several armies had some way of taking multiple T8 Tanks/Units to force more decision making than "It's there"
I did say for the LR to be good it would require more thought than "It's there" - like the Aggressors do they're a "good" unit. They cause a distance vs range cost-to-benefit evalution on their target priority. If they're in Grav range, you absolutely pound them because 5" move plus 18" Assault 6 range + 1" advance is 24" Grav Range. If they're not and by enough they can keep for a turn.

There are better transports (impulsor).
There are better AT sources (eradicators).

Honestly, it just isn't priced appropriately. For whatever reason GWS is not trying to push landraiders (I'd guess because they want to sell primaris kids instead).

Since we are at it, can someone please explain to me why primaris cannot fit in a landraider, marines in a chimera, and guardsmen in an impulsor?