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So everybody seems to be up in arms about the recent space marine changes like it is the end of the world and 40k is not worth playing anymore. And while I am also annoyed at the constant stream of primaris releases and how many special rules and buffs marines have compared to other factions, I can't stand the hyperbole on this forum recently.

We do not have conclusive information yet. We do not know how the space marine Codex will turn out in the end or how the meta will shift once some of the new codices roll out. It's all premature hysteria right now.

A buddy of mine plays necrons and instead of being happy that they just got awesome new models, he is more upset that space Marines got better models, even though the necron codex is just around the corner and could provide a massive buff with new rules and stratagems. Also there are still a lot more awesome new necron models to be released soon which could be super powerful.
Couple of months ago we had a conversation where he expressed his disappointment about necrons never getting new models. And I see this attitude all around here.

My point is that people never seem to be happy, no matter what gw does. And no I am not defending gw here, I am super critical of many desicions they have made. Which brings me to my next point: if you are upset about something GW does, or even better, if you have a constructive idea to improve something, then write them. GW has engaged the community a lot more in recent times and providing them with constructive ideas is much more productive than raging impotently in a forum.

And yes, I can already hear the frothing answers to this..."gw doesn't listen to your ideas and suggestions anyway, they barely listen to playtesters!"
Yes, your or my idea will most likely not get picked up, but if enough people write their suggestions to gw instead of bitching in a forum, there might be one among them that gets picked up in the future and make the game better as a whole.

I recently wrote GW about some ideas I had how to improve the faction I play and while I am well aware that those ideas will most likely never get picked up, I am content with having shared something I really have put some thought into. It did not cost me much time to write them and it's objectively healthier than to vent on dakka.

It's all premature hysteria right now.

And yes, I can already hear the frothing answers to this...

Woo, down with hyperbole!

Hehe. You seem to be working on assumption GW is even trying for balanced game when it's not And lol at "we don't know full picture yet". GW games aren't hard to figure out and every single prediction of what's good and bad in 9th made in may-early june...proved to be correct.

Why people think GW games are some complex subtle games that take long time to figure out? They are not complex and GW is using rules as marketing tools so all you need to figure out which models they want to sell out this time before changing it and you know precisely what is going to be good.

And then when you remember marines are supposed to be the heroic master race that beats lowly NPC's so timmy the 12yo's can feel like heroes you can figure out what faction is going to be getting best of the bunch...As it is marine leaks have been lot better than necron ones. Multi meltas getting extra shot, heat ray staying exact same so that is nerf for necrons already. Locust destroyer? 1 shot with random damage at fairly expensive soft platform...Yea right no.

If GW releases incomplete information to the community, you can't really blame them for reacting to the information they've given. That's the thing that always tickles me about these " calm down! just wait and see!" posts. They are the complete opposite of what GW wants. They release things drip by drip precisely to create hype and get people talking by teasing things without fully revealing them.

If you don't want people to react to incomplete information, you should be telling GW not to release such information. GW wants people getting into a froth, and their PR is designed to cause just that reaction.

Wrong forum mate, you might as well tell the tide to not come in.

Hyperbole, doom&gloom, argumentseeking and GW-hating is pretty much the signum of dakkadakka these days. It essentially became Whineseer 2.0 after that forum went down a few years ago.

If you want an overall positive community regarding 40k I suggest you look elsewhere, like bolterandchainsword or various youtubechannels.

Just to state my personal opinion: while I too have taken part in discussions were I argued along the line that some of the new Marine stuff seemed rather unbalanced, I share the sentiment that the recent "doom and gloom" is a bit much. I also don't really suspect any sinister motive at GW. I'm no businessman, so even if I don't think their information strategy and release schedule is very wise, what do I know. It seems to have worked pretty well for them so far.

And regarding this forum in general: I joined to find advice for painting and modelling (which I got multiple times), inspiration (tons of it in the gallery), funny/cool fluff ideas and discuss some possible tactic snippets now and then. I personally think you can enjoy it that way pretty well by just ignoring the most depressing topics. Nobody forces me to read them.

yukishiro1 wrote:
If GW releases incomplete information to the community, you can't really blame them for reacting to the information they've given. That's the thing that always tickles me about these " calm down! just wait and see!" posts. They are the complete opposite of what GW wants. They release things drip by drip precisely to create hype and get people talking by teasing things without fully revealing them.

If you don't want people to react to incomplete information, you should be telling GW not to release such information. GW wants people getting into a froth, and their PR is designed to cause just that reaction.

While not related specifically to GW the current popularity of "leaks" is getting on my nerves. They aren't behind the curtain views of development they are targeted marketing releases. Call them that.

End expect people to jump to conclusions when you do that.

And GW absolutely does not only expect people to jump to conclusions, they're counting on it; it's a fundamental part of their marketing strategy. This is what "generating hype" is all about. The very word "hype" implies an irrationally exuberant reaction.

I mean I'm sure GW would prefer if 100% of the irrational exuberance was positive "GW is the best company ever please shut up and take my money!111" but it'll take angsty engagement over no engagement every day of the week, that's a fundamental part of the modern PR handbook.

yukishiro1 wrote:
And GW absolutely does not only expect people to jump to conclusions, they're counting on it; it's a fundamental part of their marketing strategy. This is what "generating hype" is all about. The very word "hype" implies an irrationally exuberant reaction...

Assuming, of course, that the slow trickle of leaks of new SM stats out of instruction booklets far in advance of the Codex was deliberate and not a result of COVID-related supply chain disruption.

Hyperbole and childish drama is the whole reason I come here

Forget it Jack its Dakka-town...

It doesn't really matter either way, if they really cared about leaks they wouldn't have printed up the instruction books and let them get into peoples' hands months early. I mean if they really cared about leaks, the boxes wouldn't have rules in them at all, certainly not rules that aren't yet active.

And even if they didn't welcome speculation, they wouldn't be releasing articles about it on their PR site, except maybe to say "you may have seen some leaked instruction booklets, these aren't the complete or finalized rules and you shouldn't speculate based on them as to what the rule may end up being."

I honestly don't know whether these particular leaks were deliberate or not, but there's no doubt that GW's marketing campaigns are based around teasing the community with incomplete information in order to create attention and engagement.

Do people maybe think sometimes that the new sm stuff is tailored for 9th and other 9th ed codex, and not playing people who have some transition books ?

Because in the GK FAQ we just got, GW wrote exactly that. They know that some books can be worse, or even much worse then other, but what would people want? GW not starting marines their best seller and most popular army, or maybe giving powerful and good rules to not marines first?

This is what I don't understand about this forum, and many of the forum-goers. They obviously are not having fun with 40k, like ever, and yet they continue to play and then whine and complain.

As people say "if you're not having fun with the game, it's time to find another."

It's always brought up that they can write to GW, but they always respond with "they never listen" or "there's enough dummies out there that enjoy this garbage that they'll never listen." Ok then, if your voice is, supposedly, not being heard, then why are you spending money and time playing this game? Why not go to something else?

And to be clear, I'm not saying "sell your army that's costed thousands of dollars to collect and months/years to paint". Just, don't play 9th then! There are 8 other editions that exist. There are other games directly competing with GW as well, like Malifaux, Infinity, Legion, Kings of War, etc. In the meantime, odds are in this hobby that you have lots of unpainted models to paint, and with new model releases from GW, likely will be more. Take the time to paint them!

And, the counter argument of "but, everyone in my gaming area are sheeple that only play 9th edition 40k". Ignoring the denigration of your local gaming group, it sounds like these are people you don't want to be around, so don't! There are probably other people in the area who play other games, but don't go to your local FLGS due to the popularity of 40k. Find them! There's apps for finding people who play different games, and there's online communities you can join for those different games.

To be clear, I'm nervous about the changes too. I'm not doing anything competitive this edition, only sticking with the campaign like Crusade. I won't play my Guard army until the codex is out, and if it's released and Guard winds up being the "worst" faction this edition, I probably won't play that army this edition. I'll still keep what I have in case that changes (and it will in time). I just won't play them. Not that hard.

If 9th winds up as a disaster? To where Crusade isn't even fun? I'll likely get into Legion. Clone army looks great. 212th for life! And in the meantime, I still have more models to paint than models painted. I'll get those finished for 10th edition. No big.

I guess my point is, the complaining is not going anywhere. You're not having fun. Why not go do something else until the next edition?

yukishiro1 wrote:
...That's the thing that always tickles me about these " calm down! just wait and see!" posts. They are the complete opposite of what GW wants. They release things drip by drip precisely to create hype and get people talking by teasing things without fully revealing them.

If you don't want people to react to incomplete information, you should be telling GW not to release such information. GW wants people getting into a froth, and their PR is designed to cause just that reaction.

Doubt. Especially with how other corporations in general are reacting to consumers screaming and frothing at the mouth over what said corporations are doing. Most (non-media) companies do not generate revenue by generating anger. People angry at your product are less likely to buy it.

EDIT: Rereading it, you may have been talking about trying to generate hype rather than anger. Hype=good, anger=bad, for most companies anyways.

Well, my ignore-list became longer during the last weeks. I'd suggest to do the same. Sometimes one doesn't realize it but it's actually a limited number of posters that write the same GW hate over and over in any thread. Once you identified them - do yourself a favor and simply ignore them.
In the most ridiculous threads I sometimes chuckle because the majority of posters is on my ignore list. There are a lot of decent people on dakka. You just have to reduce the noise.

Arcanis161 791131 10900727 wrote: This is what I don't understand about this forum, and many of the forum-goers. They obviously are not having fun with 40k, like ever, and yet they continue to play and then whine and complain.

As people say "if you're not having fun with the game, it's time to find another."

If I did that in 8th, then I would have spent all my money on an army that was unfun to play with, and which had zero chance to be resold for as much I paid for it. I didn't like 8th ed, but I didn't quit either. And now my army has nice and fun rules to play with, and I can enjoy it. And if it stays like that for 5-6 months, the 2 year wait time may even be worth it.

This is still nothing compared to waiting 100+ years to get your country back, and being told by everyone you never get it back.

Tiberias wrote:

A buddy of mine plays necrons and instead of being happy that they just got awesome new models, he is more upset that space Marines got better models, even though the necron codex is just around the corner and could provide a massive buff with new rules and stratagems. Also there are still a lot more awesome new necron models to be released soon which could be super powerful.

I don't blame him. Immortals going up to T5 is good but the Wraith changes are more of a sidestep than a buff. Until we know what 9th's Reanimation Protocals are then I'll remain skeptical. It's not an exaggeration to say how necrons preform will hinge on that and GW haven't been able to decide on how they should work ever. They managed to make Acts Of Faith actually work finally so it's not beyond the realm of possibility that they finally get necrons right.

I think some have missed the main point of my post so I'll reiterate once again:
The main point of my post was to say that instead of creating hyperbolic threads and posts over and over on a forum, and yes I know not every single user on dakka does that, it would be better to write constructive criticism at GW directly.
Even if Your criticism or idea does not get picked up or heard, if enough people do it, maybe something gets picked up because out of 9999 bad ideas, there may be that one that is so good that they actually listen and the game benefits as a whole from it.
Raging on a forum accomplishes nothing. Most of the time it just creates unnecessary arguments and animosity among the forum users, where there is pages over pages of people arguing over some unnecessary detail to prove the other person wrong.

Arcanis161 wrote:


EDIT: Rereading it, you may have been talking about trying to generate hype rather than anger. Hype=good, anger=bad, for most companies anyways.

The modern PR handbook says that it's important to create engagement, and you do that by creating strong emotional reactions in people. Of course it's best if you can create positive reactions, but if you can stir the pot and get 60% of people feeling positive and 40% feeling worried and then get the 60% and the 40% to spend time and energy debating with each other over it, that's positive for your brand because it's keeping it central in peoples' minds.

This is especially true for non-critical products in low-competition markets. If you don't like GW's rules, you can't just go use Pastime Factory's very similar but slightly different rules system for your models instead, the way that you can decide to buy a Honda instead of a Ford if Ford is pissing you off (I mean you can, but there's a much more dramatic dislocation required, because it requires finding new people to play with, not just buying a different brand product to keep using the way you used the old one, like buying a different brand of car; you don't have to drive the Honda on different roads from the Ford). The key thing in these industries is to keep peoples' attention because attention leads to sales. Positive attention is best, but any attention is better than no attention. GW is much more afraid of you forgetting about GW products than about you being frustrated by GW PR releases.

Are there any other communities out there where they're more positive?

I really enjoy the hobby and have done for 20 years. I like to talk about it, theory craft and speculate on new releases, where the lore is going, and look at cool armies and chat about tips and tricks for painting and modelling.

It really does feel like people who are here for the joy of the hobby are in the minority, and every news thread rapidly degenerates into the same old tropes, and General Discussion might get a page or two out of an interesting topic before it descends into the same old circles.

It can be very frustrating to read about a new release or a leak, and come on here to read more about it and see opinions, to then get find out that most posts are declaring it a dumpster fire, or broken, or trashing on GW. I know I've failed to hide that frustration in the past too.

So is there somewhere for someone like me to go? Someone who loves the hobby, and all aspects of it? Or as Dakka would know me better, a shill and GW apologist?

Relicnews may it rest in peace use to have a nice pleasant Warhammer forum. Somewhere with a similar atmosphere would be great to find.

I will say that Painting and Modelling her is a nice pleasant place which is very supportive and open to any ideas without shutting them down.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Well, my ignore-list became longer during the last weeks. I'd suggest to do the same. Sometimes one doesn't realize it but it's actually a limited number of posters that write the same GW hate over and over in any thread. Once you identified them - do yourself a favor and simply ignore them.
In the most ridiculous threads I sometimes chuckle because the majority of posters is on my ignore list. There are a lot of decent people on dakka. You just have to reduce the noise.

Whilst I understand and agree with the tactic you use, those same people actually shouldn't be allowed to use the forum. The mods are very poor, and biased, and it is obvious, certain posters get a free pass all the time.... What can you expect when mods defend nazi's on this forum though....

To be quite honest, I'm content with reading news releases on warhammer community, my time on here is numbered.

That's really hyperbolic itself, isn't it? It's simply not true that "most posts are declaring it a dumpster fire, or broken, or trashing on GW."

It probably is going to be difficult to find a place to discuss 40k on the internet where nobody or almost nobody has negative reactions to things. But perhaps you should just ask yourself why it upsets you to hear opinions less positive than your own? That seems odd to me. It doesn't ruin my day if someone here thinks GW is God's gift to the world, and it also doesn't ruin my day if someone thinks GW is terrible. It doesn't impact me one way or the other, it's just some person's opinion. One of the good things about dakka is that if you don't want to engage a person, you can just not engage them; the mods will do a good job of removing posts from people who can't leave well enough alone and can't avoid making things personal. Nothing forces you respond to anything anyone else says.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
What can you expect when mods defend nazi's on this forum though....

Err, well, they don't? A MOD should be pretty light on the touch. I might bitch at people that I think are being gakky, but I'm willing to discuss rather than ban people. I'm sure some people think I should be banned. It isn't a great avenue for discourse (what little might be had).

I was shocked and chagrined to find that a thread entitled "How are xenos armies meant to compete" contained negativity....I thought it would be all about how sunny it is outside, boy was I fooled. This sort of thing must be stopped, won't someone please, think of the children.

Karol wrote:

Arcanis161 791131 10900727 wrote: This is what I don't understand about this forum, and many of the forum-goers. They obviously are not having fun with 40k, like ever, and yet they continue to play and then whine and complain.

As people say "if you're not having fun with the game, it's time to find another."

If I did that in 8th, then I would have spent all my money on an army that was unfun to play with, and which had zero chance to be resold for as much I paid for it. I didn't like 8th ed, but I didn't quit either. And now my army has nice and fun rules to play with, and I can enjoy it. And if it stays like that for 5-6 months, the 2 year wait time may even be worth it.

This is still nothing compared to waiting 100+ years to get your country back, and being told by everyone you never get it back.

If you read the rest of my post, you would see that your approach last edition was fine. A lot of people react to the argument of "play something else" thinking that they should sell their armies for the game. I wanted to clarify that's not my argument at all. They should do what you did: hold onto what you have, and then wait and see what happens later.

I would say that you may have been happier playing another game in the meantime, but based on your post, I don't know whether or not you were.

yukishiro1 wrote:

Arcanis161 wrote:


EDIT: Rereading it, you may have been talking about trying to generate hype rather than anger. Hype=good, anger=bad, for most companies anyways.

The modern PR handbook says that it's important to create engagement, and you do that by creating strong emotional reactions in people. Of course it's best if you can create positive reactions, but if you can stir the pot and get 60% of people feeling positive and 40% feeling worried and then get the 60% and the 40% to spend time and energy debating with each other over it, that's positive for your brand because it's keeping it central in peoples' minds.

This is especially true for non-critical products in low-competition markets. If you don't like GW's rules, you can't just go use Pastime Factory's very similar but slightly different rules system for your models instead, the way that you can decide to buy a Honda instead of a Ford if Ford is pissing you off (I mean you can, but there's a much more dramatic dislocation required, because it requires finding new people to play with, not just buying a different brand product to keep using the way you used the old one, like buying a different brand of car; you don't have to drive the Honda on different roads from the Ford). The key thing in these industries is to keep peoples' attention because attention leads to sales. Positive attention is best, but any attention is better than no attention. GW is much more afraid of you forgetting about GW products than about you being frustrated by GW PR releases.

Except that you don't want too much negative attention. Some mixed discussion can get people's interest, but if the reaction to your product is mostly negative, that will keep people away. Unless you're media, in which case you capitalize on, and generate, negative attention to others.

I can see where you're coming from here, in that there's YouTube channels giving both negative and positive attention to the changes (and mostly positive). The only thing I question is whether or not the YouTube videos are impacting people to invest in the game. I could see some people getting into Space Marines, but the issue there would be comparing that to lost revenue from people not interested in Space Marines or people interested in the other factions. I personally feel a more balanced game will sell more (though examples from TCGs exist where shifting imbalance was the selling point), but we'll have to wait for the sales numbers.

Well sure, obviously they're not going out to deliberately anger people, at least not in a ratio that isn't more people happy than angry. GW can obviously get the balance wrong.

The point was just that generating controversy is part of the GW marketing plan. They don't particularly care if some people are upset, as long as it drives interactions.

 harlokin wrote:
I was shocked and chagrined to find that a thread entitled "How are xenos armies meant to compete" contained negativity....I thought it would be all about how sunny it is outside, boy was I fooled. This sort of thing must be stopped, won't someone please, think of the children.

I know right, when the space marines codex contains a rule called heart of mean beneath skins of monsters, and every model mutates into a pile of mush on a d6 roll of a 2+ at the start of every phase and counts as slain. Then how will xenos compete.

Won't someone think of the poor xenos cowering in fear of a 2 wound space marine!!! We've never seen those before and they're going to totally break the game, tactical squads were dominating the meta before they got 2 wounds!

There's already a thread for you to argue over xenos vs space marines, I'm pretty sure that was harlokin's point. You don't need to restart that thread here.

 MinscS2 wrote:
Wrong forum mate, you might as well tell the tide to not come in.

Hyperbole, doom&gloom, argumentseeking and GW-hating is pretty much the signum of dakkadakka these days. It essentially became Whineseer 2.0 after that forum went down a few years ago.

If you want an overall positive community regarding 40k I suggest you look elsewhere, like bolterandchainsword or various youtubechannels.

Exalted.

yukishiro1 wrote:
There's already a thread for you to argue over xenos vs space marines, I'm pretty sure that was harlokin's point. You don't need to restart that thread here.

Fair play, I agree with the OP entirely though in that the sheer volume of knee jerk doom and gloom is entirely premature and unnecessary.

Even if they do gak the bed with balance, even if some factions are left in the rain for a little while, there will be some people who genuinely love marines and should be excited by this release. Those are people who now face threads on here asking if they'll be banned from playing, being told people hate that they enjoy their favourite faction and how their opponents are saying they'll have a rubbish time. All without the book even being out.