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Made in it
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Italy

 Dolnikan wrote:


I've seen this written several times, and I'd really like to know how my guardsmen in any way would outclass orks. And please, don't come with the boosted by a pile or orders stuff. That depends on very limited officers who tend to be prime targets in my experience. And besides, at the current points level, my guardsmen already get blasted off the table in huge amounts by the ever prevalent space marines who somehow get units that fire over a hundred shots and then re-roll everything too.


Just look at the stats: T3 5+ is basically equal to T4 and 6+, but 2-4 shots at BS4+ make guardsmen capable of more damage than boyz which are mostly melee oriented. Oh and those boyz are also very dependant of characters' buffs, which are also more expensive than officers. So in practise in a whole game the same amount of guardsmen should likely inflict more damage than ork boyz.

Anything that blasts off the board your 5ppm guardmsen is also blasting off the board 8ppm boyz or 9ppm kabalite warriors with the same effort. Except the AM player is losing half the points of models.

 
   
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SemperMortis wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
You missed my point. Orks and Tyranids are capable of fielding lots of infantry models in squads of 10 or less models. It's not their horde identity of large units of 20-30 models, but they can do it just as easily as Astra Militarum.

I'm not going to argue they are as good, but 130 Guardsman aren't really good either.


But 130 guardsmen will absolutely gut 130 Ork boyz in 10 man squads. So what is happening here is Orkz are now incentivized to take the bare minimum # of troops and focus on toyz. Which brings us right back around to the main point which Jidmah said. GW is making rules to force players into a certain play style.
\



This.
It's the same reason why GW kept on nerfing cultists to the near point of no synergy with most csm subfactions.
It's also a nice way to see why GW can't balance, because , they can't even enforce a army to look like it should through rules , because they simply don't know how the army actually works in the field. All through 8th until the very last days you saw cultists over CSM f.e., simply because you couldn't waste the pts on anything else.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Blackie wrote:
 Dolnikan wrote:


I've seen this written several times, and I'd really like to know how my guardsmen in any way would outclass orks. And please, don't come with the boosted by a pile or orders stuff. That depends on very limited officers who tend to be prime targets in my experience. And besides, at the current points level, my guardsmen already get blasted off the table in huge amounts by the ever prevalent space marines who somehow get units that fire over a hundred shots and then re-roll everything too.


Just look at the stats: T3 5+ is basically equal to T4 and 6+, but 2-4 shots at BS4+ make guardsmen capable of more damage than boyz which are mostly melee oriented. Oh and those boyz are also very dependant of characters' buffs, which are also more expensive than officers. So in practise in a whole game the same amount of guardsmen should likely inflict more damage than ork boyz.

Anything that blasts off the board your 5ppm guardmsen is also blasting off the board 8ppm boyz or 9ppm kabalite warriors with the same effort. Except the AM player is losing half the points of models.


Also, 130 orks are 1040 pts.
130 guardsmen 650 pts.
And sure you can't allways have orders near such a blob, but adding in a commander or two would still tilt the point balance in favour of the guard.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/24 08:20:49


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I think you can make the case guardsmen are too cheap at 5 points (they could go up to 6) but I am highly suspect however on the claim that they are as good as boyz or Kabalites (who are way overcosted at 9 and should probably go down to 7).

For example if guard were 8 points, they'd get out-shot by shoota boyz, and they get completely mauled in close combat. They'd also stand up worse to S3 and S4 shooting. You can bring in orders etc, but on paper you'd have a strictly inferior unit versus anything but say heavy bolters.

There is also growing evidence, at least in the case of Orks, that Boyz are doing quite well in 9th, while Guard don't seem to be anywhere. (I suspect this is due to guard lists leaking secondary objectives rather than their potency - but that's the game now.)
   
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Bamberg / Erlangen

tneva82 wrote:

Gw went to light infantry is irrelevant. Why? Money. It's marketing trick. Nothing about balance(being irrelevant junk isn't balanced), nothing abott what's good for game.

The new missions and emphasis on scoring objectives instead of castling up and blowing your opponent from the table seem generally well received as a good change to the game.

Preventing unbreakable, cheap obsec hordes from swarming the objective and win the game by not doing anything apart from not dying for a couple of rounds is something that the designers and internal game testers might have been aware of / caught up on during playtesting. They might have overshot for the start, but the easiest way to fix that is to adjust points for these models. Something that we might see in upcoming CA or codizes.

And I don't know man, seems to me the best way to make money would be to leave hordes as they are and give Space Marines a new, cheap unit they could spam and have to buy 10 for 45€ each. Something like a Crusader squad.


   
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Hamburg

Well, I think Xenos armies will get a boost, say with Troupes, Wracks, Aspect Warriors, Genestealers, Crisis Stealth and whatnot getting 2W.

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 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I think Xenos armies will get a boost, say with Troupes, Wracks, Aspect Warriors, Genestealers, Crisis Stealth and whatnot getting 2W.

Crisis suits are already 3W but pay more than a Gravis model for T5 3w at 3+ save with worse BS on a shooting focused unit.

Stealth suits were already 2W too they just pay new tactical marine points for a worse statline without all the buffed out special rules of free attacks and AP.
   
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Hamburg

My bad, Crisis Stealth. Haven't battled them for a longer time.
I hope GW finds a pattern so that ''heavily armored'' Xenos units get a boost of wounds.

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Not Online!!! wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
You missed my point. Orks and Tyranids are capable of fielding lots of infantry models in squads of 10 or less models. It's not their horde identity of large units of 20-30 models, but they can do it just as easily as Astra Militarum.

I'm not going to argue they are as good, but 130 Guardsman aren't really good either.


But 130 guardsmen will absolutely gut 130 Ork boyz in 10 man squads. So what is happening here is Orkz are now incentivized to take the bare minimum # of troops and focus on toyz. Which brings us right back around to the main point which Jidmah said. GW is making rules to force players into a certain play style.
\



This.
It's the same reason why GW kept on nerfing cultists to the near point of no synergy with most csm subfactions.
It's also a nice way to see why GW can't balance, because , they can't even enforce a army to look like it should through rules , because they simply don't know how the army actually works in the field. All through 8th until the very last days you saw cultists over CSM f.e., simply because you couldn't waste the pts on anything else.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Blackie wrote:
 Dolnikan wrote:


I've seen this written several times, and I'd really like to know how my guardsmen in any way would outclass orks. And please, don't come with the boosted by a pile or orders stuff. That depends on very limited officers who tend to be prime targets in my experience. And besides, at the current points level, my guardsmen already get blasted off the table in huge amounts by the ever prevalent space marines who somehow get units that fire over a hundred shots and then re-roll everything too.


Just look at the stats: T3 5+ is basically equal to T4 and 6+, but 2-4 shots at BS4+ make guardsmen capable of more damage than boyz which are mostly melee oriented. Oh and those boyz are also very dependant of characters' buffs, which are also more expensive than officers. So in practise in a whole game the same amount of guardsmen should likely inflict more damage than ork boyz.

Anything that blasts off the board your 5ppm guardmsen is also blasting off the board 8ppm boyz or 9ppm kabalite warriors with the same effort. Except the AM player is losing half the points of models.


Also, 130 orks are 1040 pts.
130 guardsmen 650 pts.
And sure you can't allways have orders near such a blob, but adding in a commander or two would still tilt the point balance in favour of the guard.


That still doesn't make guardsmen worth the same as orks. Lots of light infantry currently is overpriced, and I would even go as far as saying that the guard is overpriced at the moment. Not compared to each other, but to the guys you will face most often: heavy infantry. Currently, all light infantry basically is useless in this game. At least a mob of orks has a chance to get an enemy unit off an objective with a charge, whereas my piddly lasguns don't do much at all (seriously, it requires 18 shots to put a single wound on an MEQ without him having any boosts, and with them having/going to two wounds, all that rolling basically becomes a waste of time.

And it's very important to keep in mind that guard infantry has one huge disadvantage compared to orks, they absolutely bleed secondary points to a far greater extent (although that now goes for many more horde-based armies). But I guess that in general the current system of secondaries doesn't really work, although it's not as bad as when they introduced Kill Points.

I know that everyone loves the guardsmen comparison. But let's be honest, has anyone ever lost a game because of a slugging match between guardsmen and boyz? (who, incidentally, have equal shooting and better melee). Of course, boyz currently are overcosted, as are units like kabalites. For boyz, I would have pegged them at 6, with kabalites at 7. For kabalites however I would say that the points aren't the main issue, that is that they don't really have much of a role in the current game. Last edition, it was only being able to ride in light vehicles and shoot from them, and that was about it. Now their vehicles are going to be much more fragile, so that playstyle basically died.

   
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Italy

Tyel wrote:

For example if guard were 8 points, they'd get out-shot by shoota boyz.


How? 2-4 S3 shots at BS4+ are better than 2 S4 shots at BS5+ with exploding 6s.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Dolnikan wrote:

At least a mob of orks has a chance to get an enemy unit off an objective with a charge, whereas my piddly lasguns don't do much at all (seriously, it requires 18 shots to put a single wound on an MEQ without him having any boosts, and with them having/going to two wounds, all that rolling basically becomes a waste of time.


10 orks aren't better than 10 guardsmen in clearing units off objectives. You are probably considering 250 points of 30 orks probably joined by a bunch of characters to buff them vs 50 points of guardsmen (which would be 80 if they were 8ppm).

Take 30 guardsmen to remove units from objectives, they'll do the same job of ork boyz but they'll have more durability as they are 3 different squads (3x10 orks don't work unless they also have trukks, which would be another 195 points).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/24 09:18:03


 
   
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 Blackie wrote:
Tyel wrote:

For example if guard were 8 points, they'd get out-shot by shoota boyz.


How? 2-4 S3 shots at BS4+ are better than 2 S4 shots at BS5+ with exploding 6s.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Dolnikan wrote:

At least a mob of orks has a chance to get an enemy unit off an objective with a charge, whereas my piddly lasguns don't do much at all (seriously, it requires 18 shots to put a single wound on an MEQ without him having any boosts, and with them having/going to two wounds, all that rolling basically becomes a waste of time.


10 orks aren't better than 10 guardsmen in clearing units off objectives. You are probably considering 250 points of 30 orks probably joined by a bunch of characters to buff them vs 50 points of guardsmen (which would be 80 if they were 8ppm).

Take 30 guardsmen to remove units from objectives, they'll do the same job of ork boyz but they'll have more durability as they are 3 different squads (3x10 orks don't work unless they also have trukks, which would be another 195 points).


Concerning the shooting 2 s4 shots at 5+ are exactly the same as 2 s3 shots at 4+ when shooting at T4. (there is not difference between 1/3*1/2 and 1/2*1/3) The exploding hits make boy shooting better.

For clearing objectives, 2 S4 attacks hitting on 3+ each are way better than some guys with similar shooting and no melee punch to follow it up with.

30 guardsmen is something I repeatedly tried, and it isn't enough to take off even a small squad of intercessors. The only reason charging works is that it means that I get to sit on the objective to deny them scoring, before getting cleared off next turn. Orks (if properly costed, like I said, at something like 6 points) could do more.

Of course, the main issue actually isn't our light infantry, and the spread in costs between them could even work. But only if heavy infantry had been properly priced for what they do, and they very clearly aren't.

   
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 Blackie wrote:
How? 2-4 S3 shots at BS4+ are better than 2 S4 shots at BS5+ with exploding 6s.


4 shots is better, 2 shots is worse.

Shoot a marine.
Guard: 2*1/2*1/3*1/3=0.1111
Ork: 2*1/3*7/6*1/2*1/3=0.1296.

Shoot a guardsman.
Guard: 2*1/2*1/2*2/3=0.333
Ork: 2*1/3*7/6*2/3*2/3=0.345.

Shoot an Ork.
Guard: 2*1/2*1/3*5/6=0.2777
Ork: 2*1/3*7/6*1/2*5/6=0.324

As it stands with Guard at 5 points and Orks at 8, guard are much better. In a world where they are both 8 points however this isn't the case. Shooting twice costs additional points - and you can start arguing the merits of getting into 12". As can also be seen shooting the guard kills more than shooting the Orks.

Meanwhile, punching a marine:
Guard: 1*1/2*1/3*1/3=0.05555.
Ork: 2*2/3*1/2*1/3=0.222

Punching a guardsman:
Guard: 1*1/2*1/2*2/3=0.333
Ork: 2*2/3*2/3*2/3=0.593

So the ork is considerably better in assault.
   
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I don't want to sound pedantic, but you realize, that guardsmen only have 2 shots within 12'' or if they are ordered FRFSRF. And the Sergant has only a pistol. Normally they have RF 1 weapons, so one shot, even though at a longer range than orks.

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Not Online!!! wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
You missed my point. Orks and Tyranids are capable of fielding lots of infantry models in squads of 10 or less models. It's not their horde identity of large units of 20-30 models, but they can do it just as easily as Astra Militarum.

I'm not going to argue they are as good, but 130 Guardsman aren't really good either.


But 130 guardsmen will absolutely gut 130 Ork boyz in 10 man squads. So what is happening here is Orkz are now incentivized to take the bare minimum # of troops and focus on toyz. Which brings us right back around to the main point which Jidmah said. GW is making rules to force players into a certain play style.
\



This.
It's the same reason why GW kept on nerfing cultists to the near point of no synergy with most csm subfactions.
It's also a nice way to see why GW can't balance, because , they can't even enforce a army to look like it should through rules , because they simply don't know how the army actually works in the field. All through 8th until the very last days you saw cultists over CSM f.e., simply because you couldn't waste the pts on anything else.



I have a gut feeling GW kind of regrets the introduction of cultists to CSMs. a lighter cheaper troop unit tends to be a bad thing when you want the army to center around "doods in power armor" if the rumors of scouts moving to the elites section are true this is born out there too as scouts are a similer problem for Marines.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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Italy

 Pyroalchi wrote:
I don't want to sound pedantic, but you realize, that guardsmen only have 2 shots within 12'' or if they are ordered FRFSRF. And the Sergant has only a pistol. Normally they have RF 1 weapons, so one shot, even though at a longer range than orks.


I do, but people put assault on the table to make their point, without realizing that close combat may not even happen. Screeners and terrain obstacles exist and to reach combat a unit must move within a very short range, roll to succeed the charge and then even if they do only a fraction of the unit can actually fight.

Shooting is automatic, you just need to be in range: no roll for determine if the shooting phase happens or not and the entire squad is able to fight. Shooting twice multiple times with guardsmen is actually easier than charging with a considerable amount of boyz considering the entire game. Shoota boyz in particular, with their 2 attacks per model won't clear anything off an objective if they decide to charge.

In a real game guardsmen will get more points back than ork boyz, unless maybe orks have hundreds of points of characters to buff them. Like Ghaz, weirdboy, painboy, makari.

5ppm is the cost of a gretchin, which is T2 6+, ld4, has a 12'' pistol and no clan and faction bonuses. Even if it is considered overcosted, and should be cheaper, a guardsmen is definitely worth +3 or +4ppm comparing to such a unit.

 
   
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BrianDavion wrote:

I have a gut feeling GW kind of regrets the introduction of cultists to CSMs. a lighter cheaper troop unit tends to be a bad thing when you want the army to center around "doods in power armor" if the rumors of scouts moving to the elites section are true this is born out there too as scouts are a similer problem for Marines.


That is something I can understand being a massive difficulty. Cheap bodies are worth much more in an army of elites than in less elite army. And that makes comparisons even harder. Imagine Custodes being given a unit of grots. They would be willing to pay far more for them than other armies would because they fill a role that is otherwise absent. Cultists basically are in the same boat where they are much better in the army than they would have been in other armies. Which, incidentally, is why I would say that including them in the CSM list was a major mistake because there is no good way to balance cultists and basic chaos marines to each other so both are viable choices, and then making them externally balanced is even harder. Of course, this also is why allies is and was a bad idea to begin with.

   
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BrianDavion wrote:
I have a gut feeling GW kind of regrets the introduction of cultists to CSMs. a lighter cheaper troop unit tends to be a bad thing when you want the army to center around "doods in power armor" if the rumors of scouts moving to the elites section are true this is born out there too as scouts are a similer problem for Marines.


I think with MEQ going to two wounds you might get the distinction which GW couldn't reach in 8th edition.

They might, tentatively, walk back some of the cultist hate. Or at least they might if they were to ever bring out some new cultist models.
   
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If you don't want me to field 300 grots in an army, give grots better rules. Obviously I'm not expecting to win tournaments with 300 grots, 5 mek gunz, and 12 killa kanz, it's a fluff themed list that I run for fun. But it's frustrating to have to think "Hmm, maybe I should run these as Guard instead" because the rules are just THAT bad.

Like I'm sorry, but

Twice the range
twice the shots
+1WS
+2LD
+2Sv
+1T

REALLY should be worth SOMETHING.

If people are worried about MSU squads of them being too cheap, do AOS horde pricing - First 10 grots 5ppm, second 10 grots 3ppm, third 10 grots 2ppm. 100points for 30 vs 90pts for 30 in 8th, you pay 10% more for the better morale rule in 9th.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I'm of the opinion that any number chosen by GW to represent what a "Horde" is in the rules, and thus grant additional rules for things like blast weapons or coherency, would have been arbitrary. It could have just as easily been 21+, or 31+, or 15+ or whatever. The majority of basic units in the game however come in squads of 5-10, so having it as 11+ does have some logic behind it. Some.

The only thing that I don't like is the inclusion of additional rules for units 6-10 in size. That was unnecessary and just adds further complications to the game.

For all my issues with terrain and LOS and vehicles and so on, the first 9th Ed rule I'd remove from the game entirely would be the coherency requirements for units sized 6-10.


My guess is - and I'm talking their motivation/expectation not how the world will actually work - this was to encourage combat squadding, and otherwise put more smaller units on the smaller board with the expected smaller army size.

I'm even wondering how long this has been coming with all the 3 or 3/6 units lately.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
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BrianDavion wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
You missed my point. Orks and Tyranids are capable of fielding lots of infantry models in squads of 10 or less models. It's not their horde identity of large units of 20-30 models, but they can do it just as easily as Astra Militarum.

I'm not going to argue they are as good, but 130 Guardsman aren't really good either.


But 130 guardsmen will absolutely gut 130 Ork boyz in 10 man squads. So what is happening here is Orkz are now incentivized to take the bare minimum # of troops and focus on toyz. Which brings us right back around to the main point which Jidmah said. GW is making rules to force players into a certain play style.
\



This.
It's the same reason why GW kept on nerfing cultists to the near point of no synergy with most csm subfactions.
It's also a nice way to see why GW can't balance, because , they can't even enforce a army to look like it should through rules , because they simply don't know how the army actually works in the field. All through 8th until the very last days you saw cultists over CSM f.e., simply because you couldn't waste the pts on anything else.



I have a gut feeling GW kind of regrets the introduction of cultists to CSMs. a lighter cheaper troop unit tends to be a bad thing when you want the army to center around "doods in power armor" if the rumors of scouts moving to the elites section are true this is born out there too as scouts are a similer problem for Marines.


Spoiler:
But the issue neither is cultists nor scouts tho. The issue is, that CSM or tacs for that matter, offer nothing substantial enough in the environment created by the game to actually be a consideration.
Both suffered from the 1 W syndrome, paying to much for a good sv value that you still can whiff and then you end up with a signficant investment dead.
Cultists or scouts don't pay that mach for no respectively some lackluster armor, but are not as hard a loss comparatively.
Also, especially cultists but other light infantry just don't work because GW can't write morale rules worth an actual gak. And let's not forget that weapons that could surpress units, are now gone. Making morale binary either squad wipe or just ignorable, by running msu.
Another issue is that GW just flat out often allows factions to break certain corerule restrictions, like morale through early 8th commisars. Without the appropriate pricetag involved.

Basically , IF gw would actually listen to the playtesters and actually let the ruleswriters work as a collective, or hell force them to, we would not get the vast differences all over the place for no reason needed.

Basically GW has removed any potential mechanic that might could've kept light infantry more balanced in their attempt to streamline, and at the same time made their armor system for no reason apparent non binary, making high SV elite units automatically alot worse.
And the only reason for that i can see is, that they have a Vision for every faction and subfaction they want to enforce, yet completely fail to make that work in the environment they created in the core rules. Hurting both those that have their own idea and those that share their vision for an army only to realise it doesn't work.

Another good exemple are archetype armies. Relying on specific synergies, like mechanised guard, or daemonengine lists.
The later is another perfect exemple, over valued invul for the most part and regen, lead to initially too high pts prices. and their lackluster output had issues especially on those daemonengines relying on shooting. The charachters actually intended to make them work ( warpsmith) completely failed at that because the engines he babysitted were to expensive, had too low output and were thrown in a meta, which has to regularly wipe a knight or two, which means that the durability advantage and regen just go out the window. so what does GW do? It releases the lord discordant. An immensily powerfull option, and casually tacks on an aura (think of them what you want....) on a model that want's to go out and stab stuff. And it is at this point you see the juxtaposition, Here it is, the solution to the lackluster output of daemonengines, in form of an aura. Stuck on a too competitively priced melee body... and instead of actually giving the aura to the warpsmith, and pricing him correctly making dakka fiends, defielers, and decimators actually hit stuff (in case of the later hit actually good.) you now had a body that basically you took 3 times to throw at an enemy or used / abused -1 to hit modifiers... Well, fething, done...


This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/08/24 11:53:32


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A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
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Tyel wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I'm of the opinion that any number chosen by GW to represent what a "Horde" is in the rules, and thus grant additional rules for things like blast weapons or coherency, would have been arbitrary. It could have just as easily been 21+, or 31+, or 15+ or whatever. The majority of basic units in the game however come in squads of 5-10, so having it as 11+ does have some logic behind it. Some.


Depends on if GW took a coherent view.
There are fair number of models which gain a special rule if you take them in bigger units (and there could be more). If you covered this under the "horde rule", you could then have a certain interaction with blast.
Admittedly that potentially creates more things to learn - a horde of Genestealers is 11, while a horde or Termagaunts is 21 etc - but arguably that creates a more tailored and less arbitrary distinction.

(The real craziness would be offering points discounts on models taken in a "horde" - but that could get messy too.)

But then I don't think blast is meant to be balanced. Its an example of whimsy. "It sucks when I shoot my massive gun into a load of models I potentially only get 1 shot. Okay Timmy, have all the shots."

I feel if competitive players were in charge, random shot weapons would be up against the wall. Just make them all 2/4 shots etc and balance accordingly. "But my blast templates" - what is this, 2014?

I disagree, this didn't have antyhing to do with the random nature. There are certain concepts GW loves and will continue to remove and bring back time after time until they get it right. Some of it is whimsy. See: Thudd Gun Template, Thunderfire Cannon? multiple blast deviation, etc. Blast is part of it. Truth be told I expect to see templates back in a starter set within a couple editions.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in de
Boom! Leman Russ Commander






@ Blackie: I agree, I also don't see Guardsmen costing the same as Gretchin and neither think that Boyz deserve their current price tag. It's just that claiming Guardsmen would just "gut" Boyz as others wrote, argueing on the basis of them having 2-4 shots each as if that was their basic statline is... problematic. But I'm totally with you that I don't buy the counterargument that boyz are so much better in melee either when they have to get there first.

But maybe that's just some personal aversion.

~6550 build and painted
819 build and painted
830 
   
Made in us
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard





 Blackie wrote:
I'd consider an horde an army that has 3x or even 4x more models than that average SM army as the standard SM model is 3x or 4x more resilient than the average horde infantry dude.


So you're saying there are no horde armies? With Marines being roughly 15ppm and grots being 5 ppm, boys being around 8-10ppm, its kind of hard to reach that 4x threshhold when there aren't troops 1/4 the price of a SM troop.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Not Online!!! wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
You missed my point. Orks and Tyranids are capable of fielding lots of infantry models in squads of 10 or less models. It's not their horde identity of large units of 20-30 models, but they can do it just as easily as Astra Militarum.

I'm not going to argue they are as good, but 130 Guardsman aren't really good either.


But 130 guardsmen will absolutely gut 130 Ork boyz in 10 man squads. So what is happening here is Orkz are now incentivized to take the bare minimum # of troops and focus on toyz. Which brings us right back around to the main point which Jidmah said. GW is making rules to force players into a certain play style.
\



This.
It's the same reason why GW kept on nerfing cultists to the near point of no synergy with most csm subfactions.
It's also a nice way to see why GW can't balance, because , they can't even enforce a army to look like it should through rules , because they simply don't know how the army actually works in the field. All through 8th until the very last days you saw cultists over CSM f.e., simply because you couldn't waste the pts on anything else.



I have a gut feeling GW kind of regrets the introduction of cultists to CSMs. a lighter cheaper troop unit tends to be a bad thing when you want the army to center around "doods in power armor" if the rumors of scouts moving to the elites section are true this is born out there too as scouts are a similer problem for Marines.


Spoiler:
But the issue neither is cultists nor scouts tho. The issue is, that CSM or tacs for that matter, offer nothing substantial enough in the environment created by the game to actually be a consideration.
Both suffered from the 1 W syndrome, paying to much for a good sv value that you still can whiff and then you end up with a signficant investment dead.
Cultists or scouts don't pay that mach for no respectively some lackluster armor, but are not as hard a loss comparatively.
Also, especially cultists but other light infantry just don't work because GW can't write morale rules worth an actual gak. And let's not forget that weapons that could surpress units, are now gone. Making morale binary either squad wipe or just ignorable, by running msu.
Another issue is that GW just flat out often allows factions to break certain corerule restrictions, like morale through early 8th commisars. Without the appropriate pricetag involved.

Basically , IF gw would actually listen to the playtesters and actually let the ruleswriters work as a collective, or hell force them to, we would not get the vast differences all over the place for no reason needed.

Basically GW has removed any potential mechanic that might could've kept light infantry more balanced in their attempt to streamline, and at the same time made their armor system for no reason apparent non binary, making high SV elite units automatically alot worse.
And the only reason for that i can see is, that they have a Vision for every faction and subfaction they want to enforce, yet completely fail to make that work in the environment they created in the core rules. Hurting both those that have their own idea and those that share their vision for an army only to realise it doesn't work.

Another good exemple are archetype armies. Relying on specific synergies, like mechanised guard, or daemonengine lists.
The later is another perfect exemple, over valued invul for the most part and regen, lead to initially too high pts prices. and their lackluster output had issues especially on those daemonengines relying on shooting. The charachters actually intended to make them work ( warpsmith) completely failed at that because the engines he babysitted were to expensive, had too low output and were thrown in a meta, which has to regularly wipe a knight or two, which means that the durability advantage and regen just go out the window. so what does GW do? It releases the lord discordant. An immensily powerfull option, and casually tacks on an aura (think of them what you want....) on a model that want's to go out and stab stuff. And it is at this point you see the juxtaposition, Here it is, the solution to the lackluster output of daemonengines, in form of an aura. Stuck on a too competitively priced melee body... and instead of actually giving the aura to the warpsmith, and pricing him correctly making dakka fiends, defielers, and decimators actually hit stuff (in case of the later hit actually good.) you now had a body that basically you took 3 times to throw at an enemy or used / abused -1 to hit modifiers... Well, fething, done...



Well said.

My 2 cents on cultists in csm armies: Cultists were originally an Alpha Legion only thing. Giving them to all the Legions was a consequence of the succession of horribly bland codexes csm have received since the loss of the 3.5 codex which have only served to suck all the uniqueness out of The Legions. Cultists should return to being exclusive to the Alpha Legion and csm given rules to represent true Legionnaires. I didn't start playing Chaos Space Marines so that I could instead play Guardsmen Inferiororis. Hopefully the move to make all Heretic Astartes 2W is a step in this direction.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
You missed my point. Orks and Tyranids are capable of fielding lots of infantry models in squads of 10 or less models. It's not their horde identity of large units of 20-30 models, but they can do it just as easily as Astra Militarum.

I'm not going to argue they are as good, but 130 Guardsman aren't really good either.


But 130 guardsmen will absolutely gut 130 Ork boyz in 10 man squads. So what is happening here is Orkz are now incentivized to take the bare minimum # of troops and focus on toyz. Which brings us right back around to the main point which Jidmah said. GW is making rules to force players into a certain play style.
\



This.
It's the same reason why GW kept on nerfing cultists to the near point of no synergy with most csm subfactions.
It's also a nice way to see why GW can't balance, because , they can't even enforce a army to look like it should through rules , because they simply don't know how the army actually works in the field. All through 8th until the very last days you saw cultists over CSM f.e., simply because you couldn't waste the pts on anything else.



I have a gut feeling GW kind of regrets the introduction of cultists to CSMs. a lighter cheaper troop unit tends to be a bad thing when you want the army to center around "doods in power armor" if the rumors of scouts moving to the elites section are true this is born out there too as scouts are a similer problem for Marines.


Spoiler:
But the issue neither is cultists nor scouts tho. The issue is, that CSM or tacs for that matter, offer nothing substantial enough in the environment created by the game to actually be a consideration.
Both suffered from the 1 W syndrome, paying to much for a good sv value that you still can whiff and then you end up with a signficant investment dead.
Cultists or scouts don't pay that mach for no respectively some lackluster armor, but are not as hard a loss comparatively.
Also, especially cultists but other light infantry just don't work because GW can't write morale rules worth an actual gak. And let's not forget that weapons that could surpress units, are now gone. Making morale binary either squad wipe or just ignorable, by running msu.
Another issue is that GW just flat out often allows factions to break certain corerule restrictions, like morale through early 8th commisars. Without the appropriate pricetag involved.

Basically , IF gw would actually listen to the playtesters and actually let the ruleswriters work as a collective, or hell force them to, we would not get the vast differences all over the place for no reason needed.

Basically GW has removed any potential mechanic that might could've kept light infantry more balanced in their attempt to streamline, and at the same time made their armor system for no reason apparent non binary, making high SV elite units automatically alot worse.
And the only reason for that i can see is, that they have a Vision for every faction and subfaction they want to enforce, yet completely fail to make that work in the environment they created in the core rules. Hurting both those that have their own idea and those that share their vision for an army only to realise it doesn't work.

Another good exemple are archetype armies. Relying on specific synergies, like mechanised guard, or daemonengine lists.
The later is another perfect exemple, over valued invul for the most part and regen, lead to initially too high pts prices. and their lackluster output had issues especially on those daemonengines relying on shooting. The charachters actually intended to make them work ( warpsmith) completely failed at that because the engines he babysitted were to expensive, had too low output and were thrown in a meta, which has to regularly wipe a knight or two, which means that the durability advantage and regen just go out the window. so what does GW do? It releases the lord discordant. An immensily powerfull option, and casually tacks on an aura (think of them what you want....) on a model that want's to go out and stab stuff. And it is at this point you see the juxtaposition, Here it is, the solution to the lackluster output of daemonengines, in form of an aura. Stuck on a too competitively priced melee body... and instead of actually giving the aura to the warpsmith, and pricing him correctly making dakka fiends, defielers, and decimators actually hit stuff (in case of the later hit actually good.) you now had a body that basically you took 3 times to throw at an enemy or used / abused -1 to hit modifiers... Well, fething, done...



Well said.

My 2 cents on cultists in csm armies: Cultists were originally an Alpha Legion only thing. Giving them to all the Legions was a consequence of the succession of horribly bland codexes csm have received since the loss of the 3.5 codex which have only served to suck all the uniqueness out of The Legions. Cultists should return to being exclusive to the Alpha Legion and csm given rules to represent true Legionnaires. I didn't start playing Chaos Space Marines so that I could instead play Guardsmen Inferiororis. Hopefully the move to make all Heretic Astartes 2W is a step in this direction.


Um. please no? I like the cultists I have for my Thousand Sons made from Kairic Acolytes just fine, thanks? Maybe when GW finally gives support for Renegades and Heretics as their own army so they can be run as such, but currently Cultists are the only way to represent the most common and numerous fighting force Chaos has in realspace.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Blackie wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
You missed my point. Orks and Tyranids are capable of fielding lots of infantry models in squads of 10 or less models. It's not their horde identity of large units of 20-30 models, but they can do it just as easily as Astra Militarum.

I'm not going to argue they are as good, but 130 Guardsman aren't really good either.


10 man squads of boyz are utter trash unless they also have a 65ppm trukk. 20ish squads of boyz are also sub optimal unless they ride in a 155ppm battlewagon, which also burns an heavy support choice.

10 man squads of guardsmen are perfect as they are, and they are actually 30 cheaper points than 10 man squads of boyz. 35-40 cheaper if the nob as a close combat weapon, which he'll likely want. 10 man guardsmen would be ok even at 8-9ppm (which is exactly how they should be), when they'd cost exacatly like a 10 man squad of boyz with or without a killsaw and still outclass the greenskins.


I think Orks might find life in running BBs and Trukks with Boyz and the mobbing up and continually feeding 10 mans onto objectives that need support. The vehicles have fantastic melee presence so it isn't a horrible burden. People talk a lot about transports sitting on objectives. I can think of no better than one that is T8 with a 5++ where the occupants can still swipe from inside the transport.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
You missed my point. Orks and Tyranids are capable of fielding lots of infantry models in squads of 10 or less models. It's not their horde identity of large units of 20-30 models, but they can do it just as easily as Astra Militarum.

I'm not going to argue they are as good, but 130 Guardsman aren't really good either.


10 man squads of boyz are utter trash unless they also have a 65ppm trukk. 20ish squads of boyz are also sub optimal unless they ride in a 155ppm battlewagon, which also burns an heavy support choice.

10 man squads of guardsmen are perfect as they are, and they are actually 30 cheaper points than 10 man squads of boyz. 35-40 cheaper if the nob as a close combat weapon, which he'll likely want. 10 man guardsmen would be ok even at 8-9ppm (which is exactly how they should be), when they'd cost exacatly like a 10 man squad of boyz with or without a killsaw and still outclass the greenskins.


I think Orks might find life in running BBs and Trukks with Boyz and the mobbing up and continually feeding 10 mans onto objectives that need support. The vehicles have fantastic melee presence so it isn't a horrible burden. People talk a lot about transports sitting on objectives. I can think of no better than one that is T8 with a 5++ where the occupants can still swipe from inside the transport.


Trukk boyz have been supremely successful for me holding objectives. I have also seen them played in max blobs highly effectively.I just don't think there's a middle ground with boyz where they can be happy, I think it's either min or max and you shape your whole army around that decision.


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

the_scotsman wrote:
Spoiler:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
You missed my point. Orks and Tyranids are capable of fielding lots of infantry models in squads of 10 or less models. It's not their horde identity of large units of 20-30 models, but they can do it just as easily as Astra Militarum.

I'm not going to argue they are as good, but 130 Guardsman aren't really good either.


But 130 guardsmen will absolutely gut 130 Ork boyz in 10 man squads. So what is happening here is Orkz are now incentivized to take the bare minimum # of troops and focus on toyz. Which brings us right back around to the main point which Jidmah said. GW is making rules to force players into a certain play style.
\



This.
It's the same reason why GW kept on nerfing cultists to the near point of no synergy with most csm subfactions.
It's also a nice way to see why GW can't balance, because , they can't even enforce a army to look like it should through rules , because they simply don't know how the army actually works in the field. All through 8th until the very last days you saw cultists over CSM f.e., simply because you couldn't waste the pts on anything else.



I have a gut feeling GW kind of regrets the introduction of cultists to CSMs. a lighter cheaper troop unit tends to be a bad thing when you want the army to center around "doods in power armor" if the rumors of scouts moving to the elites section are true this is born out there too as scouts are a similer problem for Marines.


But the issue neither is cultists nor scouts tho. The issue is, that CSM or tacs for that matter, offer nothing substantial enough in the environment created by the game to actually be a consideration.
Both suffered from the 1 W syndrome, paying to much for a good sv value that you still can whiff and then you end up with a signficant investment dead.
Cultists or scouts don't pay that mach for no respectively some lackluster armor, but are not as hard a loss comparatively.
Also, especially cultists but other light infantry just don't work because GW can't write morale rules worth an actual gak. And let's not forget that weapons that could surpress units, are now gone. Making morale binary either squad wipe or just ignorable, by running msu.
Another issue is that GW just flat out often allows factions to break certain corerule restrictions, like morale through early 8th commisars. Without the appropriate pricetag involved.

Basically , IF gw would actually listen to the playtesters and actually let the ruleswriters work as a collective, or hell force them to, we would not get the vast differences all over the place for no reason needed.

Basically GW has removed any potential mechanic that might could've kept light infantry more balanced in their attempt to streamline, and at the same time made their armor system for no reason apparent non binary, making high SV elite units automatically alot worse.
And the only reason for that i can see is, that they have a Vision for every faction and subfaction they want to enforce, yet completely fail to make that work in the environment they created in the core rules. Hurting both those that have their own idea and those that share their vision for an army only to realise it doesn't work.

Another good exemple are archetype armies. Relying on specific synergies, like mechanised guard, or daemonengine lists.
The later is another perfect exemple, over valued invul for the most part and regen, lead to initially too high pts prices. and their lackluster output had issues especially on those daemonengines relying on shooting. The charachters actually intended to make them work ( warpsmith) completely failed at that because the engines he babysitted were to expensive, had too low output and were thrown in a meta, which has to regularly wipe a knight or two, which means that the durability advantage and regen just go out the window. so what does GW do? It releases the lord discordant. An immensily powerfull option, and casually tacks on an aura (think of them what you want....) on a model that want's to go out and stab stuff. And it is at this point you see the juxtaposition, Here it is, the solution to the lackluster output of daemonengines, in form of an aura. Stuck on a too competitively priced melee body... and instead of actually giving the aura to the warpsmith, and pricing him correctly making dakka fiends, defielers, and decimators actually hit stuff (in case of the later hit actually good.) you now had a body that basically you took 3 times to throw at an enemy or used / abused -1 to hit modifiers... Well, fething, done...



Well said.

My 2 cents on cultists in csm armies: Cultists were originally an Alpha Legion only thing. Giving them to all the Legions was a consequence of the succession of horribly bland codexes csm have received since the loss of the 3.5 codex which have only served to suck all the uniqueness out of The Legions. Cultists should return to being exclusive to the Alpha Legion and csm given rules to represent true Legionnaires. I didn't start playing Chaos Space Marines so that I could instead play Guardsmen Inferiororis. Hopefully the move to make all Heretic Astartes 2W is a step in this direction.


Um. please no? I like the cultists I have for my Thousand Sons made from Kairic Acolytes just fine, thanks? Maybe when GW finally gives support for Renegades and Heretics as their own army so they can be run as such, but currently Cultists are the only way to represent the most common and numerous fighting force Chaos has in realspace.

You gave the answer to the problem in your response. Bring back Renegades and Heretics! If legions want geq forces they should have the option to ally in a true Imperial Guard equivalent fighting force. Not inferior rabble.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/24 13:48:05


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Gadzilla666 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Spoiler:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
You missed my point. Orks and Tyranids are capable of fielding lots of infantry models in squads of 10 or less models. It's not their horde identity of large units of 20-30 models, but they can do it just as easily as Astra Militarum.

I'm not going to argue they are as good, but 130 Guardsman aren't really good either.


But 130 guardsmen will absolutely gut 130 Ork boyz in 10 man squads. So what is happening here is Orkz are now incentivized to take the bare minimum # of troops and focus on toyz. Which brings us right back around to the main point which Jidmah said. GW is making rules to force players into a certain play style.
\



This.
It's the same reason why GW kept on nerfing cultists to the near point of no synergy with most csm subfactions.
It's also a nice way to see why GW can't balance, because , they can't even enforce a army to look like it should through rules , because they simply don't know how the army actually works in the field. All through 8th until the very last days you saw cultists over CSM f.e., simply because you couldn't waste the pts on anything else.



I have a gut feeling GW kind of regrets the introduction of cultists to CSMs. a lighter cheaper troop unit tends to be a bad thing when you want the army to center around "doods in power armor" if the rumors of scouts moving to the elites section are true this is born out there too as scouts are a similer problem for Marines.


But the issue neither is cultists nor scouts tho. The issue is, that CSM or tacs for that matter, offer nothing substantial enough in the environment created by the game to actually be a consideration.
Both suffered from the 1 W syndrome, paying to much for a good sv value that you still can whiff and then you end up with a signficant investment dead.
Cultists or scouts don't pay that mach for no respectively some lackluster armor, but are not as hard a loss comparatively.
Also, especially cultists but other light infantry just don't work because GW can't write morale rules worth an actual gak. And let's not forget that weapons that could surpress units, are now gone. Making morale binary either squad wipe or just ignorable, by running msu.
Another issue is that GW just flat out often allows factions to break certain corerule restrictions, like morale through early 8th commisars. Without the appropriate pricetag involved.

Basically , IF gw would actually listen to the playtesters and actually let the ruleswriters work as a collective, or hell force them to, we would not get the vast differences all over the place for no reason needed.

Basically GW has removed any potential mechanic that might could've kept light infantry more balanced in their attempt to streamline, and at the same time made their armor system for no reason apparent non binary, making high SV elite units automatically alot worse.
And the only reason for that i can see is, that they have a Vision for every faction and subfaction they want to enforce, yet completely fail to make that work in the environment they created in the core rules. Hurting both those that have their own idea and those that share their vision for an army only to realise it doesn't work.

Another good exemple are archetype armies. Relying on specific synergies, like mechanised guard, or daemonengine lists.
The later is another perfect exemple, over valued invul for the most part and regen, lead to initially too high pts prices. and their lackluster output had issues especially on those daemonengines relying on shooting. The charachters actually intended to make them work ( warpsmith) completely failed at that because the engines he babysitted were to expensive, had too low output and were thrown in a meta, which has to regularly wipe a knight or two, which means that the durability advantage and regen just go out the window. so what does GW do? It releases the lord discordant. An immensily powerfull option, and casually tacks on an aura (think of them what you want....) on a model that want's to go out and stab stuff. And it is at this point you see the juxtaposition, Here it is, the solution to the lackluster output of daemonengines, in form of an aura. Stuck on a too competitively priced melee body... and instead of actually giving the aura to the warpsmith, and pricing him correctly making dakka fiends, defielers, and decimators actually hit stuff (in case of the later hit actually good.) you now had a body that basically you took 3 times to throw at an enemy or used / abused -1 to hit modifiers... Well, fething, done...



Well said.

My 2 cents on cultists in csm armies: Cultists were originally an Alpha Legion only thing. Giving them to all the Legions was a consequence of the succession of horribly bland codexes csm have received since the loss of the 3.5 codex which have only served to suck all the uniqueness out of The Legions. Cultists should return to being exclusive to the Alpha Legion and csm given rules to represent true Legionnaires. I didn't start playing Chaos Space Marines so that I could instead play Guardsmen Inferiororis. Hopefully the move to make all Heretic Astartes 2W is a step in this direction.


Um. please no? I like the cultists I have for my Thousand Sons made from Kairic Acolytes just fine, thanks? Maybe when GW finally gives support for Renegades and Heretics as their own army so they can be run as such, but currently Cultists are the only way to represent the most common and numerous fighting force Chaos has in realspace.

You gave the answer to the problem in your response. Bring back Renegades and Heretics! If legions want geq forces they should have the option to ally in a true Imperial Guard equivalent fighting force. Not inferior rabble.


Sure. That'd be fine. So long as the rules that make Chaos usable aren't locked behind having a "pure army" and bringing the daemon and renegade forces to make a fluffy chaos force aren't anchors around the neck of the list.

Everyone's got their opinion of what a "real army" of their faction should look like. To me, if my thousand sons army was just a legion of Rubrics, walking sorcerors and ahriman, it would look like the forces they'd bring to support them were missing.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 Gadzilla666 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Spoiler:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
You missed my point. Orks and Tyranids are capable of fielding lots of infantry models in squads of 10 or less models. It's not their horde identity of large units of 20-30 models, but they can do it just as easily as Astra Militarum.

I'm not going to argue they are as good, but 130 Guardsman aren't really good either.


But 130 guardsmen will absolutely gut 130 Ork boyz in 10 man squads. So what is happening here is Orkz are now incentivized to take the bare minimum # of troops and focus on toyz. Which brings us right back around to the main point which Jidmah said. GW is making rules to force players into a certain play style.
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This.
It's the same reason why GW kept on nerfing cultists to the near point of no synergy with most csm subfactions.
It's also a nice way to see why GW can't balance, because , they can't even enforce a army to look like it should through rules , because they simply don't know how the army actually works in the field. All through 8th until the very last days you saw cultists over CSM f.e., simply because you couldn't waste the pts on anything else.



I have a gut feeling GW kind of regrets the introduction of cultists to CSMs. a lighter cheaper troop unit tends to be a bad thing when you want the army to center around "doods in power armor" if the rumors of scouts moving to the elites section are true this is born out there too as scouts are a similer problem for Marines.


But the issue neither is cultists nor scouts tho. The issue is, that CSM or tacs for that matter, offer nothing substantial enough in the environment created by the game to actually be a consideration.
Both suffered from the 1 W syndrome, paying to much for a good sv value that you still can whiff and then you end up with a signficant investment dead.
Cultists or scouts don't pay that mach for no respectively some lackluster armor, but are not as hard a loss comparatively.
Also, especially cultists but other light infantry just don't work because GW can't write morale rules worth an actual gak. And let's not forget that weapons that could surpress units, are now gone. Making morale binary either squad wipe or just ignorable, by running msu.
Another issue is that GW just flat out often allows factions to break certain corerule restrictions, like morale through early 8th commisars. Without the appropriate pricetag involved.

Basically , IF gw would actually listen to the playtesters and actually let the ruleswriters work as a collective, or hell force them to, we would not get the vast differences all over the place for no reason needed.

Basically GW has removed any potential mechanic that might could've kept light infantry more balanced in their attempt to streamline, and at the same time made their armor system for no reason apparent non binary, making high SV elite units automatically alot worse.
And the only reason for that i can see is, that they have a Vision for every faction and subfaction they want to enforce, yet completely fail to make that work in the environment they created in the core rules. Hurting both those that have their own idea and those that share their vision for an army only to realise it doesn't work.

Another good exemple are archetype armies. Relying on specific synergies, like mechanised guard, or daemonengine lists.
The later is another perfect exemple, over valued invul for the most part and regen, lead to initially too high pts prices. and their lackluster output had issues especially on those daemonengines relying on shooting. The charachters actually intended to make them work ( warpsmith) completely failed at that because the engines he babysitted were to expensive, had too low output and were thrown in a meta, which has to regularly wipe a knight or two, which means that the durability advantage and regen just go out the window. so what does GW do? It releases the lord discordant. An immensily powerfull option, and casually tacks on an aura (think of them what you want....) on a model that want's to go out and stab stuff. And it is at this point you see the juxtaposition, Here it is, the solution to the lackluster output of daemonengines, in form of an aura. Stuck on a too competitively priced melee body... and instead of actually giving the aura to the warpsmith, and pricing him correctly making dakka fiends, defielers, and decimators actually hit stuff (in case of the later hit actually good.) you now had a body that basically you took 3 times to throw at an enemy or used / abused -1 to hit modifiers... Well, fething, done...



Well said.

My 2 cents on cultists in csm armies: Cultists were originally an Alpha Legion only thing. Giving them to all the Legions was a consequence of the succession of horribly bland codexes csm have received since the loss of the 3.5 codex which have only served to suck all the uniqueness out of The Legions. Cultists should return to being exclusive to the Alpha Legion and csm given rules to represent true Legionnaires. I didn't start playing Chaos Space Marines so that I could instead play Guardsmen Inferiororis. Hopefully the move to make all Heretic Astartes 2W is a step in this direction.


Um. please no? I like the cultists I have for my Thousand Sons made from Kairic Acolytes just fine, thanks? Maybe when GW finally gives support for Renegades and Heretics as their own army so they can be run as such, but currently Cultists are the only way to represent the most common and numerous fighting force Chaos has in realspace.

You gave the answer to the problem in your response. Bring back Renegades and Heretics! If legions want geq forces they should have the option to ally in a true Imperial Guard equivalent fighting force. Not inferior rabble.


That's not the issue, Legions should have cannonfodder auxilia available, imo.
The issue is that the environment created by the core rules makes everything but cultists in the troop slot a joke option for the player.
It doesn't even matter technically if you just decide to yeet the cultists at this stage, because people would just revert to pre cultists army style, aka 10-15 csm in msu without anything hiding in Bawkses, and that also doesn't fill what GW envisions for CSM which should be a core unit according to GW's idea of what a CSM army should look like. Because as mentioned 1 W sv 3+ units don't fit in the picture of the overal meta when everyone and their mother can lower SV values and they didn'^t even when that wasn't the case and deadlyness and size creep wasn't as prevalent.

As for R&H and allying, that is a whole other level of issues overall.
including FW GW internal politicking, GW baseline sucking at ruleswriting and predicting how faction x makes the meta react in ways (or even cooperation seemingly between writers overall ) , or how allies affect the meta and push options out or in.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Dolnikan wrote:


I've seen this written several times, and I'd really like to know how my guardsmen in any way would outclass orks. And please, don't come with the boosted by a pile or orders stuff. That depends on very limited officers who tend to be prime targets in my experience. And besides, at the current points level, my guardsmen already get blasted off the table in huge amounts by the ever prevalent space marines who somehow get units that fire over a hundred shots and then re-roll everything too.



We've already done the math pretty heavily, but basically IG at 5ppm will kill about their points cost in Orks without any buffs at all nor any special weapons. Add in little things like regiment bonus and a 25pt Platoon Commander and suddenly that guard squad is gutting ork boyz unless they themselves have heavy buffs which further skews the costs.

 Pyroalchi wrote:
@ Blackie: I agree, I also don't see Guardsmen costing the same as Gretchin and neither think that Boyz deserve their current price tag. It's just that claiming Guardsmen would just "gut" Boyz as others wrote, argueing on the basis of them having 2-4 shots each as if that was their basic statline is... problematic. But I'm totally with you that I don't buy the counterargument that boyz are so much better in melee either when they have to get there first.

But maybe that's just some personal aversion.


You can get a Company Commander for 35pts or a Platoon commander for 25. A CC can issue orders to 2 Guard squads a turn and the PC 1. Put that in perspective. a 35pt buff can DOUBLE your ROF for 2 squads of infantry. So 2 Squads of Guard plus a CC is 135pts and can put out 36 shots a turn or 75 (3 pistols) at double tap range.

I don't think i've ever faced a IG opponent who wasn't running at least a few CC or PCs. The only reason you would't bring them is because you are running Tank Commanders which isn't a mark against Guardsmen or CC/PCs as much as its a statement that IG have a better competitive option to buff tanks instead of infantry.


 Daedalus81 wrote:


I think Orks might find life in running BBs and Trukks with Boyz and the mobbing up and continually feeding 10 mans onto objectives that need support. The vehicles have fantastic melee presence so it isn't a horrible burden. People talk a lot about transports sitting on objectives. I can think of no better than one that is T8 with a 5++ where the occupants can still swipe from inside the transport.


2 BBs and 2 trukkz filled with boyz and ZERO upgrades is 868pts. So you have 2 T8 4+ models 2 T6 4+ models and 44 Boyz in 4 mobs. That isn't that much for almost half your army. Nor is it very durable vs most lists these days. If you wanted to run 3 and 3 its going to eat the majority of your army but it will at least be a bit more durable. But at that point you are out of Troop slots and that means your "reinforcements" are all 10 and 12 man squads which will get mulched in a game where you can have a 3 man unit of space marines unload 36+3D6 S4 shots a turn or another 5 man unit of space marines average 8 to 9 dmg a turn against the Battlewagons And none of that is with any rerolls, doctrines or Chapter buffs.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
 
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