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Styles make fights....that and GW's reluctance to trim/change their cast of characters means that their showdowns end up a bit samey and predictable....."dude who can resurrect will inevitably lose to dude who can't".

Yeah, regardless how I feel on the matter, reducing Blackmane to "just a normal random human" is just incredibly ignorant.

Blackmane is *the* Space Wolf, even if he's not the head of the faction. And I'll be perfectly honest, Ghazzy is the *current* Biggest Baddest Ork, but he's not been the historically Biggest Baddest Ork for a while. That role was taken by the Beast and the Prime-orks.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Yeah, regardless how I feel on the matter, reducing Blackmane to "just a normal random human" is just incredibly ignorant.

To be fair, I had no idea who Ragnar was before Prophecy of the Wolf and that is despite being semi-interested in Space Wolves in the past. I did read up on him because I wanted to know who managed to beat Thrakka though.

Blackmane is *the* Space Wolf, even if he's not the head of the faction. And I'll be perfectly honest, Ghazzy is the *current* Biggest Baddest Ork, but he's not been the historically Biggest Baddest Ork for a while. That role was taken by the Beast and the Prime-orks.

Come on man, that's a false analogy. Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thrakka is as much *the* ork as Ragnar is *the* Space Wolf. If your argument is that Ghaz is not a primork and therefore not important - then Ragnar is not important either because he is not a Russ and therefore just the "current" biggest and baddest Wolf.

The War of Armageddon he started itself has spawned numerous stories, novels, units and characters that are now central to the game's lore like Mad Dok Grotznik, Snikrot and Kommandoz, Nazdreg, Grimaldus or Yarrik. Big shots like Dante and Helbrecht clashed with him as commanders with one common theme - when orks are lead by a tactical genius on a level of a Space Marine chapter master but with nearly no limitation in regard to resources, the imperium is fethed. Luckily there is just one Thrakka.
Most ork fluff revolves around Thrakka, just like most of the Space Wolf fluff has Ragnar in it.

That's why I liked the how the Prophecy of the Wolf story ended - Thrakka heard the news of the space wolves' battles right after waking up, tried to make sense of the attack targets, concluded what Ragnar was planning and intercepted him before could follow through with his plan.
The one thing that didn't work well is the weirdly written duel where they mutually kill each other but then get better.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Yeah, regardless how I feel on the matter, reducing Blackmane to "just a normal random human" is just incredibly ignorant.

To be fair, I had no idea who Ragnar was before Prophecy of the Wolf and that is despite being semi-interested in Space Wolves in the past. I did read up on him because I wanted to know who managed to beat Thrakka though.

Honestly Jidmah, if you're intreasted in the Space Wolves at all you REALLY should read the Ragnar Blackmane novels, or at least the first one Space Wolf, it's such a great look at the space wolves recruitment and trials process that if you have ANY intreast in the chapter it's worth the read.

but yeah Ragnar has featured in 6 novels, and 1 novella that's a lot of ink, his great company is also the "default" great company, so in many ways he's more reknowned then Logan. problem is because his mini was so old he'd sort of been almost benched by GW (the Krom dragoneye mini really should have just been a plastic ragnar) now that he's got a new mini I expect to see him given more attention again.

I dislike this because Ghazzy was the only real threat the Orks had. Who will lead them now? well there is.....hmm... yeah..

Prime Orks - Were put in so the Orks could even remotely threaten a Primarch lead imperium. I don't think one has ever existed in 40k and frankly Primarch Orks is just silly.

Because everything that is not SM lore is a joke.
I mean look at Illic and Jain Zar stories.
The first is not a hero even in his book and the second one got killed by random nade.
I have really low expectation from writers like Gav Thorpe.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Yeah, regardless how I feel on the matter, reducing Blackmane to "just a normal random human" is just incredibly ignorant.

To be fair, I had no idea who Ragnar was before Prophecy of the Wolf and that is despite being semi-interested in Space Wolves in the past. I did read up on him because I wanted to know who managed to beat Thrakka though.

Honestly Jidmah, if you're intreasted in the Space Wolves at all you REALLY should read the Ragnar Blackmane novels, or at least the first one Space Wolf, it's such a great look at the space wolves recruitment and trials process that if you have ANY intreast in the chapter it's worth the read.

but yeah Ragnar has featured in 6 novels, and 1 novella that's a lot of ink, his great company is also the "default" great company, so in many ways he's more reknowned then Logan. problem is because his mini was so old he'd sort of been almost benched by GW (the Krom dragoneye mini really should have just been a plastic ragnar) now that he's got a new mini I expect to see him given more attention again.

I'll add the book to my list of things to read


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rebel4ever85 wrote:
I dislike this because Ghazzy was the only real threat the Orks had. Who will lead them now? well there is.....hmm... yeah..

Thrakka is still leading the Great Waaagh. His current miniature represents him after the duel between the two. Thrakka's bully boyz brought back his head an body to Grotznik who then reconnected them, gave him some upgrades and a new suit of armor. It's a well established part of ork lore that ork body parts can be sewn back on by painboyz even after days - and they don't even need to belong to the same ork.

Ragnar took a vow to take Thrakkas head and he technically fulfilled that vow, allowing him to withdraw from the planet despite Thrakka still being alive.

changemod wrote:
This Ragnar guy has a completely unreasonable number of attacks on his profile, but you gotta bear in mind Ghazkhul’s real rival is an elderly human sigh a heretek power klaw. It’s not his fault the setting has had really much wonky power escalation in recent years.

It's not a "wonky power escalation", it's descending into silly "My best character fight your best character-style non-sense instead of having the opposition between two generals whose main importance is their strategic and tactical skills, not how hard they can hit stuff.
If GW never, ever give us a direct fight between two special characters, this will be a great improvement to the game.

Man, the thing that annoyed me the most about this fight is that they killed off Ragnar's dogs. They were the only two that were house broken and allowed to ride in Rhinos.

Ghaz was effectively a small dreadnought, now he's a big dreadnought.
There's nothing spectacular about a Marine killing a xenos dreadnought.

Ghaz is a threat for who he is, not for how many guns the meks strapped onto his armour today or how fast he can swing his powerclaw.

He's Ork Creed, or Ork Eldrad, and he could probably beat any Ork in a 1v1 (though that's not been tested, its as much a cult of personality as anything) but he cannot escape the physics of being a massive target who is not agile enough to dodge attacks.

The biggest fluff insult to me is that they randomly turned Ragnar and Ghaz into arch-nemeses, when the position of Ghaz' arch-enemy had been firmly held by Commissar Yarrick for more than 20 RL years. If I'm not mistaken, Yarrick isn't even name-dropped in Saga of the Beast.

And IF they had to absolutely tie the Ghaz PA to a Marine chapter in some way, that chapter should have been the Black Templars, not the Space Wolves.

 =Angel= wrote:
Ghaz was effectively a small dreadnought, now he's a big dreadnought.
There's nothing spectacular about a Marine killing a xenos dreadnought.

Ghaz is a threat for who he is, not for how many guns the meks strapped onto his armour today or how fast he can swing his powerclaw.

He's Ork Creed, or Ork Eldrad, and he could probably beat any Ork in a 1v1 (though that's not been tested, its as much a cult of personality as anything) but he cannot escape the physics of being a massive target who is not agile enough to dodge attacks.

Its like saying a massive 100 kg boxer who is 2meters tall wouldnt have an advantage over a small boxer weighing 50kg and being 160cm tall.

thats just not true.

Size matters and im not talking penises here. Specially when the largest one is wearing a crazy powerlike armor that probably shrugs off most primaris marine bullets. On the other hand i doubt Ragnar can shrug anything at all off Ghaz hits or his giant cannon shots

Beardedragon wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
I mean, it is Ragnar Blackmane. A vicious fighter among a chapter known for being vicious fighter. Who also got his face beaten in by Ghaz during the right.

It's not like it was some conscript right out of the training camp prancing his way through a field of flowers and accidentally cut Ghaz's head of while idly swinging his new bayonet around.

Spoiler:

what bothers me is that Ragnar didnt just get gipped by Ghazzy. There are so many humans who are super strong, Ghaz should legally be allowed to fight, and eventually just beat him. That they play it off like they're equals is just a turd on the Orks front lawn lorewise.

Ghazzy is the strongest the orks has to offer, and Ragnar isnt the strongest the humans have to offer.

Spoiler:

If the strongest ork, Ghaz, loses to some twerp like Ragnar (or even has a draw), the entire lore behind orks is just not really that threatening. Orks are losers and weaklings that cant even best the humans non-leaders.

They could at least have Ghaz fight a primarch and lose or something id be fine with that, but Ragnar? No thank you.

Hes not even important, and i base that on the fact that I had to google who he was. Important people dont need to be googled.

You dont need to google horus or the emprah or Leman Russ.

But you have to google Ragnar.

Out of curiusety is that a true statement? It of course depends on your metric. But let us look at it regarding maximum potensial damage. Bell of Lost souls did some math on him:
"[...his one turn damage potential maxes out at whopping 264."

Source: https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2020/03/warhammer-40k-ragnar-is-the-deadliest-character-in-the-game.html

I mean, what other human/post-human does better then that as maximum potensial damage in one turn? While in game rules do not always translate to in game lore. But in the lore Ragnar Blackmane is considered a very good fighter. Any readers unawarness of that does not change the in lore fact.

Regarding SW structure it is very untraditional compared to other chapters. Instead of one legion at 1000 marines, SW are 12 seperate packs, lead by a leader. (A symbolic 13 pack that has changed a bit over the years now that wulfen are rolled in with the others.) Forge World for the shortest time in 5th edition had rules for Bran the Redmaw as one of the leaders who turned into a monstrus creature as he changed into a werewolf. While Bjørn is in no leadership position he is regarded with high respect. Regardless Logan Grimnar is the 'leader' out of the 12, but Ragnar Blackmane I think is considered the better fighter.

Anyway, back to my question: What imperial model beats 264 damage in one turn?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

changemod wrote:
This Ragnar guy has a completely unreasonable number of attacks on his profile, but you gotta bear in mind Ghazkhul’s real rival is an elderly human sigh a heretek power klaw. It’s not his fault the setting has had really much wonky power escalation in recent years.

It's not a "wonky power escalation", it's descending into silly "My best character fight your best character-style non-sense instead of having the opposition between two generals whose main importance is their strategic and tactical skills, not how hard they can hit stuff.
If GW never, ever give us a direct fight between two special characters, this will be a great improvement to the game.

... is it really odd that a SPACE WOLF would seek out an opponent to slay him personally? And is it really odd that an ORK would likewise relish a throwdown?

BrianDavion wrote:
... is it really odd that a SPACE WOLF would seek out an opponent to slay him personally? And is it really odd that an ORK would likewise relish a throwdown?

Is it really odd that in a galaxy featuring billions of billions of individual, where communication and warp travel is extremely risky and imprecise, one specific space wolf would be able to track down one specific ork?
And, seriously, are you going to argue that this is the exception and that other commanders don't act like that? I mean, remember the Calgar versus Abaddon stuff that was terrible too?

While I agree that it should have been Black Templars and not Space Wolves in that box, the main issue with this kind of duel is that at least one of the fighters shouldn't be walking away from it. Especially when one literally can't back down because he is bound to vows.

So setting up two characters which are central to their respective armies to a duel like that was a stupid idea from the start.

"Both died, but they got better" was probably the only way to salvage this train wreck.

And also note that the story clearly says that they were not evenly matched. Ragnar and his honor guard(not sure what kind of marines actually accompanied him) caught Thrakka by surprise, outside of his headquarter and away from most of his bodyguards and he still managed to strike down all of them, including Ragnar and his cyber wolves.
Which seems about right from a power-level point of view.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
... is it really odd that a SPACE WOLF would seek out an opponent to slay him personally? And is it really odd that an ORK would likewise relish a throwdown?

Is it really odd that in a galaxy featuring billions of billions of individual, where communication and warp travel is extremely risky and imprecise, one specific space wolf would be able to track down one specific ork?
And, seriously, are you going to argue that this is the exception and that other commanders don't act like that? I mean, remember the Calgar versus Abaddon stuff that was terrible too?

apparently he was guided by a vision. so...

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
... is it really odd that a SPACE WOLF would seek out an opponent to slay him personally? And is it really odd that an ORK would likewise relish a throwdown?

Is it really odd that in a galaxy featuring billions of billions of individual, where communication and warp travel is extremely risky and imprecise, one specific space wolf would be able to track down one specific ork?
And, seriously, are you going to argue that this is the exception and that other commanders don't act like that? I mean, remember the Calgar versus Abaddon stuff that was terrible too?

Several SW got psykick visions of war, of ragnar blackmane leeding them. Propfecy, or self profilled profecy.

"The Space Wolves around the table looked at each other. Gillir Thunderstone opened his mouth, then closed it again and sat down. Logan Grimnar nodded slowly.

‘Well,’ he eventually said, ‘someone better find out where in the damned galaxy we can find Ragnar Blackmane.’"

Source: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/02/24/psychic-awakening-the-feast/

Call it what you want. But here you have agents activly working to furfill the prophesy. Logan Grimnar ordering the fining of Ragnar and pitting him against this Ork.

"He was no storm-caller, yet his quarters had turned colder than an ice wyrm’s lair. This had the mark of spirits and wyrd. The dream was so clear! Tor had felt the howl of the wind and the damp earth beneath the wolf ’s feet. Then the battle between wolf and beast… it had seemed as if he was witnessing events that had already come to pass. He was far from his kin, but he had felt a Sammekull – a call of the pack."

Source: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/03/02/psychic-awakening-the-call-of-the-packgw-homepage-post-4/

Even regular run of the mill marines gets visions of this.

Ragnar is almost certainly the more skilled warrior between him and Ghaz. Sure, Orks hit hard but are undisciplined, and even Ghaz doesn't have the decades or even centuries of training Ragnar has under his belt. Yes, in a contest of raw strength Ghaz would obviously blow Ragnar out of the water but in a 1v1 duel that is as much about skill as strength I certainly wouldn't consider Ragnar cutting Ghazzy's head off an impossibility.

Pandabeer wrote:
Ragnar is almost certainly the more skilled warrior between him and Ghaz. Sure, Orks hit hard but are undisciplined, and even Ghaz doesn't have the decades or even centuries of training Ragnar has under his belt. Yes, in a contest of raw strength Ghaz would obviously blow Ragnar out of the water but in a 1v1 duel that is as much about skill as strength I certainly wouldn't consider Ragnar cutting Ghazzy's head off an impossibility.

At the time of the duel Thrakka is roughly 120 years old and has been fighting for pretty for most of his life, not to mention that skills and abilities are encoded into ork DNA.

Beardedragon wrote:
Specially when the largest one is wearing a crazy powerlike armor that probably shrugs off most primaris marine bullets. On the other hand i doubt Ragnar can shrug anything at all off Ghaz hits or his giant cannon shots

From a styles makes fights standpoint, Ragnar was the original dodge-marine, and (perhaps luckily for Ghaz) too hot headed to use that speed to stick a couple of meltabombs to the orks back before running off.

The fight would have been a good way to write Helbrect out though, been a while since the holy orbs of antioch have seen any action in fluff.

 Jidmah wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:
Ragnar is almost certainly the more skilled warrior between him and Ghaz. Sure, Orks hit hard but are undisciplined, and even Ghaz doesn't have the decades or even centuries of training Ragnar has under his belt. Yes, in a contest of raw strength Ghaz would obviously blow Ragnar out of the water but in a 1v1 duel that is as much about skill as strength I certainly wouldn't consider Ragnar cutting Ghazzy's head off an impossibility.

At the time of the duel Thrakka is roughly 120 years old and has been fighting for pretty for most of his life, not to mention that skills and abilities are encoded into ork DNA.

Hey! Do not blame Ragnar Blackmane for being a better soldier through Space Wolf training and genetic tampering by the Emperor through his pack with Chaos. Blame the old once because their Krork war machine has not functioning enough through a lot more then 40 000 years. The fresher batch seems to be the superior product. Or blame the writers, it could have gone the other way.

But Thrakka as a posterboy probably does not shift those units of product:

https://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/the-saga-of-the-beast-mp3-2020.html

I mean, I am not pro emperor. But within the contex of the setting his chosen warriors are just currently the best warriors one on one. And his mass produced Space Marines are a good second place. His genetic constructs are just good.

Rebel4ever85 wrote:
I dislike this because Ghazzy was the only real threat the Orks had. Who will lead them now? well there is.....hmm... yeah..

Prime Orks - Were put in so the Orks could even remotely threaten a Primarch lead imperium. I don't think one has ever existed in 40k and frankly Primarch Orks is just silly.

They could always bring back Nazdreg. He hasn't had a new model or rules in forever and he's the Mork to Gazzy's Gork. While lore seems to emphasize his kunning, he's still a warboss of one of the major klanz so he shoul

I'd rather have it be made clear that Ghaz is the superior combatant, and provide extenuating circumstances for his tie.

Say, Ghaz sees a trap set by the Wolves. He knows it's a trap-he's not stupid-but one of his Bullyboyz goads him into it. "C'mon, boss, what can they do that could get YOU?"

Ghaz goes into it, and the trap is sprung, isolating Ghaz and some of his Bullyboyz. The Wolves expect an easy kill, having them surrounded and outnumbered. And then Ghaz just smashes through some of their line, immediately knocking them onto the back foot.

The Wolves fight, furiously, to keep Ghaz away from his WAAAAGH! proper, to get them disorganized and easy to handle, and they slowly, over the course of days, chip down his Bullyboyz. But Ghaz just does not stop. He's a one-Ork wrecking machine, and Ragnar, seeing that Ghaz is quite soon going to rejoin the WAAAAGH!, takes place to intercept him.

At this point, Ghaz has been fighting for at least three days straight. He's covered in Space Wolf blood, he's got fangs from Thunderwolves embedded in his side, and he is PISSED. Ragnar calmly steps from his ship, foolishly expecting Ghaz to be tired and easy prey, and then very nearly gets crumped in one swing. He realizes he's in for the fight of his life, even though Ghaz is tired, even though Ghaz is alone, even though Ghaz is separated from all that WAAAAGH! power. He starts ducking and dodging, weaving and bobbing, knowing that a single good hit is his end, and puts injury after injury on Ghaz, while getting his own fair share of cuts and bruises himself. But Ghaz just does not stop. As the main body of the WAAAAGH! closes in, Ragnar makes a desperate attempt to behead Ghaz, but leaves himself open, and gets absolutely MANGLED in one blow by Ghaz's claw.

There's a brief battle between the forces, with Grotsnik snagging Ghaz's head, and the Wolves severing Ghaz's claw arm to take Ragnar's barely alive body with them.

Grotsnik resurrects Ghaz, who decides that he learned his lesson. Pick Bullyboyz that aren't that stupid from now on. And then he continues his WAAAAGH!.

 JNAProductions wrote:
I'd rather have it be made clear that Ghaz is the superior combatant, and provide extenuating circumstances for his tie.

Say, Ghaz sees a trap set by the Wolves. He knows it's a trap-he's not stupid-but one of his Bullyboyz goads him into it. "C'mon, boss, what can they do that could get YOU?"

Ghaz goes into it, and the trap is sprung, isolating Ghaz and some of his Bullyboyz. The Wolves expect an easy kill, having them surrounded and outnumbered. And then Ghaz just smashes through some of their line, immediately knocking them onto the back foot.

The Wolves fight, furiously, to keep Ghaz away from his WAAAAGH! proper, to get them disorganized and easy to handle, and they slowly, over the course of days, chip down his Bullyboyz. But Ghaz just does not stop. He's a one-Ork wrecking machine, and Ragnar, seeing that Ghaz is quite soon going to rejoin the WAAAAGH!, takes place to intercept him.

At this point, Ghaz has been fighting for at least three days straight. He's covered in Space Wolf blood, he's got fangs from Thunderwolves embedded in his side, and he is PISSED. Ragnar calmly steps from his ship, foolishly expecting Ghaz to be tired and easy prey, and then very nearly gets crumped in one swing. He realizes he's in for the fight of his life, even though Ghaz is tired, even though Ghaz is alone, even though Ghaz is separated from all that WAAAAGH! power. He starts ducking and dodging, weaving and bobbing, knowing that a single good hit is his end, and puts injury after injury on Ghaz, while getting his own fair share of cuts and bruises himself. But Ghaz just does not stop. As the main body of the WAAAAGH! closes in, Ragnar makes a desperate attempt to behead Ghaz, but leaves himself open, and gets absolutely MANGLED in one blow by Ghaz's claw.

There's a brief battle between the forces, with Grotsnik snagging Ghaz's head, and the Wolves severing Ghaz's claw arm to take Ragnar's barely alive body with them.

Grotsnik resurrects Ghaz, who decides that he learned his lesson. Pick Bullyboyz that aren't that stupid from now on. And then he continues his WAAAAGH!.

Exactly. I mean i dont mind this being a draw at all, but like you, i need to know that Ghaz is, as you say, the surperior combatant. Lure him in to a trap, let it be a draw after Ghazzy has fought for a long time and is tired, i dont mind. I dont even mind that Ragnar is tactically surperior, but i get kinda angry that the best the orks has to offer, isnt surperior in a straight up fight, to a dumb ascended primaris. You could at least pick like, a thousand year old legendary venerable named dreadnaught as his enemy for a claw fist fight, at least Ghaz is that size anyway. that would also make it realistic. But making a draw of a tiny human? No tactics where Ghaz is lured in to a trap or nothing? No thank you.

They ended up in a draw in a completely fair fight? bs. Its fake news, it didnt happen. 2019 hasnt ended yet. I dont believe it.

Honestly - Ghaz's claim to fame has never been that he's a world class combatant. What's always made him special is hi ability to organize, strategize, and LEAD other orks. Yeah, he's bug and he's got the armor, but in the fluff, whenever Ghaz is mentioned, it's to call out how unusual he is for his leadership abilities rather than his combat abilities.

On the other hand, Ragnar's fluff is basically all about him being a superior killing machine (especially when it comes to things like monsters) so this storyline made sense to me. Ragnar is anything but "some random human" so that's not a fair comparison.

When you consider the fluff and stop trying to draw comparisons between Ghazkul and the Beast, or Ghazkul and the Primarchs (comparisons GW themselves have never actually made), this result makes sense. At least to me anyway.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Ghaz goes into it, and the trap is sprung, isolating Ghaz and some of his Bullyboyz. The Wolves expect an easy kill, having them surrounded and outnumbered. And then Ghaz just smashes through some of their line, immediately knocking them onto the back foot.

The Wolves fight, furiously, to keep Ghaz away from his WAAAAGH! proper, to get them disorganized and easy to handle, and they slowly, over the course of days, chip down his Bullyboyz. But Ghaz just does not stop. He's a one-Ork wrecking machine, and Ragnar, seeing that Ghaz is quite soon going to rejoin the WAAAAGH!, takes place to intercept him.

At this point, Ghaz has been fighting for at least three days straight. He's covered in Space Wolf blood, he's got fangs from Thunderwolves embedded in his side, and he is PISSED. Ragnar calmly steps from his ship, foolishly expecting Ghaz to be tired and easy prey, and then very nearly gets crumped in one swing. He realizes he's in for the fight of his life, even though Ghaz is tired, even though Ghaz is alone, even though Ghaz is separated from all that WAAAAGH! power. He starts ducking and dodging, weaving and bobbing, knowing that a single good hit is his end, and puts injury after injury on Ghaz, while getting his own fair share of cuts and bruises himself. But Ghaz just does not stop. As the main body of the WAAAAGH! closes in, Ragnar makes a desperate attempt to behead Ghaz, but leaves himself open, and gets absolutely MANGLED in one blow by Ghaz's claw.

I think this pretty much is the story they tried to tell in Prophecy of the Wolf, though you definitely wrote it better. The only difference is that the Space Wolves waited for Thrakka to be away from the main body of his army, and that the bully boyz were actually acting smart and loyal and went looking for Thrakka, as the feedback of him getting beheaded actually was felt by every ork on the planet, causing the entire Waaagh! to fall into chaos over infighting over his position as the biggest boss. So more competence instead of dumb luck on both sides.

Tycho wrote:
Honestly - Ghaz's claim to fame has never been that he's a world class combatant. What's always made him special is hi ability to organize, strategize, and LEAD other orks. Yeah, he's bug and he's got the armor, but in the fluff, whenever Ghaz is mentioned, it's to call out how unusual he is for his leadership abilities rather than his combat abilities.

On the other hand, Ragnar's fluff is basically all about him being a superior killing machine (especially when it comes to things like monsters) so this storyline made sense to me. Ragnar is anything but "some random human" so that's not a fair comparison.

When you consider the fluff and stop trying to draw comparisons between Ghazkul and the Beast, or Ghazkul and the Primarchs (comparisons GW themselves have never actually made), this result makes sense. At least to me anyway.

I always thought that the reason you hear more about his leadership skills is that it's rare that an ork could grasp tactics like ghaz does. His capability for krumping is implied; he's an ork warboss, and the biggest one at that. That means that he by definition has to be a very skilled fighter, else some other warboss would have beaten him and would be leading instead (and given ghaz's position there would've been a lot of challenges). That is just my interpretation though.

I always thought that the reason you hear more about his leadership skills is that it's rare that an ork could grasp tactics like ghaz does.

That's precisely it. He's the "Prophet of the WAAAAAGH!" which is very different from "equal in fighting prowess to a Primarch". Yes, he's the biggest boss, and that makes him incredibly tough, but his claim to fame was very much his leadership skills and ability to strategize and NOT his actual physical fighting prowess.

There have, in the past even been Warbosses who were known to be better fighters. They just couldn't muster a WAAAGH like he could (and as far as I know they never actually fought), but I digress. If Ghaz had literally been krumped by a truly random HUMAN (as the thread title suggests), then yeah, that's utterly stupid. But that's also not what happened. He got taken out by one of the greatest H2H fighters (lore wise) the marines currently have, and managed to take him down as well in the process. It's just not the travesty the thread title would have you believe it is.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/03/26/ghazghkull-can-he-krump-it/ felt this might be relevant