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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Belial - Bisected by Ghaz at Piscina. There's definitely a grudge match there - AND, would have allowed us to have Primaris DA character who we actually knew, and could have dispelled myths about "the DA would NEVER accept a Primaris Marine".

I agree with most of your list, but feel I need to pick out this one in particular.
Firstly, when the Piscina campaign actually happened by way of campaign book all the way back in 2nd ed, it was much more Nazdreg's deal - not only was the campaign more his plan than Ghazzy's, he got a new model released alongside it and everything. I don't recall anything about Thraka wounding Belial being in there - though that could be my memory playing tricks - but the nature of the whole campaign seems like a retcon in Ghazzy's favour, when really Belial should have more beef with Nazdreg.

The other point is that, aside from Dark Angels, Space Wolves are the other Chapter who could be seen as having great difficulty accepting Primaris Marines - and as with Dark Angels, it's because of where they've come from, outside the Chapter. So while it's a valid point that Dark Angels could use that kind of lore boost, it's not really fair to say they should have had it instead of Ragnar, this go round.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Maybe I'm being a killjoy, but I don't understand why this is still a debate.

Because people continue to pretend that Ragnar is just some ordinary, dime-a-dozen Space Marine Captain.

Not even that. Just some 'random human' with no combat experience or ability to speak of.

I'm trying to draw the line between 'is it supposed to be funny?' and 'its just sad' with no success.

Voss wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Maybe I'm being a killjoy, but I don't understand why this is still a debate.

Because people continue to pretend that Ragnar is just some ordinary, dime-a-dozen Space Marine Captain.

Not even that. Just some 'random human' with no combat experience or ability to speak of.

I'm trying to draw the line between 'is it supposed to be funny?' and 'its just sad' with no success.

I know that if someone I liked got DKO'd in a fight with a character I was unfamiler with rather then embarassing myself onlne with "HE GOT PUNKED BY SOME NOBODY!" I'd do some research, and if it turned out said character was one of the oldest chars in 40k, with 7 direct novels about him I'd proably refrain from calling that character a nobody

BrianDavion wrote:

Voss wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Maybe I'm being a killjoy, but I don't understand why this is still a debate.

Because people continue to pretend that Ragnar is just some ordinary, dime-a-dozen Space Marine Captain.

Not even that. Just some 'random human' with no combat experience or ability to speak of.

I'm trying to draw the line between 'is it supposed to be funny?' and 'its just sad' with no success.

I know that if someone I liked got DKO'd in a fight with a character I was unfamiler with rather then embarassing myself onlne with "HE GOT PUNKED BY SOME NOBODY!" I'd do some research, and if it turned out said character was one of the oldest chars in 40k, with 7 direct novels about him I'd proably refrain from calling that character a nobody

That's pretty much what I did

 Jidmah wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Voss wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Maybe I'm being a killjoy, but I don't understand why this is still a debate.

Because people continue to pretend that Ragnar is just some ordinary, dime-a-dozen Space Marine Captain.

Not even that. Just some 'random human' with no combat experience or ability to speak of.

I'm trying to draw the line between 'is it supposed to be funny?' and 'its just sad' with no success.

I know that if someone I liked got DKO'd in a fight with a character I was unfamiler with rather then embarassing myself onlne with "HE GOT PUNKED BY SOME NOBODY!" I'd do some research, and if it turned out said character was one of the oldest chars in 40k, with 7 direct novels about him I'd proably refrain from calling that character a nobody

That's pretty much what I did

Yeah and I appreciate you're being reasonable.

 Jidmah wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
A draw to a second in command who isnt even the Chapter master.

So yes, a nobody.

Sorry, but after everything that was written in this thread, that is just trolling.

Ragnar was by all means a worthy opponent for Thrakka.

Of course Ragnar was a worthy opponent, a worthy opponent that should have eventually lost or at least made a draw or won by luring ghazzy in to a trap or something not made a draw in a straight up one on one.

its belittling Ghaz and what hes otherwise supposed to stand for.

Beardedragon wrote:
Of course Ragnar was a worthy opponent, a worthy opponent that should have eventually lost or at least made a draw or won by luring ghazzy in to a trap

That is exactly what happened though?

Ragnar ambushed Thrakka when he was away from his army and Thrakka still managed to kill the entire ambush party, including Ragnar and his cyber wolves but lost his head in the process. Both got better and Ragnar didn't want to fight Thrakka heads-on again since his vow ("to take the beast's head") was technically fulfilled, so he decided to drop an orbital platform on the ork fortress instead. Thrakka woke up from surgery, survived another assassination attempt by primaris wolves, quickly concluded from his nobz' battle reports what Ragnar was planning and was waiting for him at the control station that was supposed to be able to drop the platform. Ragnar then withdrew because he saw no chance of winning without dying again.

 Jidmah wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
Of course Ragnar was a worthy opponent, a worthy opponent that should have eventually lost or at least made a draw or won by luring ghazzy in to a trap

That is exactly what happened though?

Ragnar ambushed Thrakka when he was away from his army and Thrakka still managed to kill the entire ambush party, including Ragnar and his cyber wolves but lost his head in the process. Both got better and Ragnar didn't want to fight Thrakka heads-on again since his vow ("to take the beast's head") was technically fulfilled, so he decided to drop an orbital platform on the ork fortress instead. Thrakka woke up from surgery, survived another assassination attempt by primaris wolves, quickly concluded from his nobz' battle reports what Ragnar was planning and was waiting for him at the control station that was supposed to be able to drop the platform. Ragnar then withdrew because he saw no chance of winning without dying again.

But that invalidates this entire topic? why didnt anyone just say that to begin with!

Beardedragon wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
Of course Ragnar was a worthy opponent, a worthy opponent that should have eventually lost or at least made a draw or won by luring ghazzy in to a trap

That is exactly what happened though?

Ragnar ambushed Thrakka when he was away from his army and Thrakka still managed to kill the entire ambush party, including Ragnar and his cyber wolves but lost his head in the process. Both got better and Ragnar didn't want to fight Thrakka heads-on again since his vow ("to take the beast's head") was technically fulfilled, so he decided to drop an orbital platform on the ork fortress instead. Thrakka woke up from surgery, survived another assassination attempt by primaris wolves, quickly concluded from his nobz' battle reports what Ragnar was planning and was waiting for him at the control station that was supposed to be able to drop the platform. Ragnar then withdrew because he saw no chance of winning without dying again.

But that invalidates this entire topic? why didnt anyone just say that to begin with!

they DID

Beardedragon wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
Of course Ragnar was a worthy opponent, a worthy opponent that should have eventually lost or at least made a draw or won by luring ghazzy in to a trap

That is exactly what happened though?

Ragnar ambushed Thrakka when he was away from his army and Thrakka still managed to kill the entire ambush party, including Ragnar and his cyber wolves but lost his head in the process. Both got better and Ragnar didn't want to fight Thrakka heads-on again since his vow ("to take the beast's head") was technically fulfilled, so he decided to drop an orbital platform on the ork fortress instead. Thrakka woke up from surgery, survived another assassination attempt by primaris wolves, quickly concluded from his nobz' battle reports what Ragnar was planning and was waiting for him at the control station that was supposed to be able to drop the platform. Ragnar then withdrew because he saw no chance of winning without dying again.

But that invalidates this entire topic? why didnt anyone just say that to begin with!

Erm, if you actually bothered to read the counter posts to your main complaint you would have realized this 2 pages ago.

Beardedragon wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
Of course Ragnar was a worthy opponent, a worthy opponent that should have eventually lost or at least made a draw or won by luring ghazzy in to a trap

That is exactly what happened though?

Ragnar ambushed Thrakka when he was away from his army and Thrakka still managed to kill the entire ambush party, including Ragnar and his cyber wolves but lost his head in the process. Both got better and Ragnar didn't want to fight Thrakka heads-on again since his vow ("to take the beast's head") was technically fulfilled, so he decided to drop an orbital platform on the ork fortress instead. Thrakka woke up from surgery, survived another assassination attempt by primaris wolves, quickly concluded from his nobz' battle reports what Ragnar was planning and was waiting for him at the control station that was supposed to be able to drop the platform. Ragnar then withdrew because he saw no chance of winning without dying again.

But that invalidates this entire topic? why didnt anyone just say that to begin with!

Lol

I cant see the picture or what you wanted to show with that "click show" button though.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
The actual fluff for those so inclined. They basically both died and were both rescued. #PlotArmor

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Thank you for this, I'm reading this thread scratching my head wondering just what the hell was going on

Beardedragon wrote:
Lol

I cant see the picture or what you wanted to show with that "click show" button though.

Linky link
https://funnyjunk.com/channel/dungeons-n-drags/Spleenstabbah+mobuttah+darksun/kLktLxY/#f98268_6417476

 KingCracker wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
The actual fluff for those so inclined. They basically both died and were both rescued. #PlotArmor

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Thank you for this, I'm reading this thread scratching my head wondering just what the hell was going on

The main difference is Space Wolves have significantly stupid plot armor at this point.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 KingCracker wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
The actual fluff for those so inclined. They basically both died and were both rescued. #PlotArmor

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Thank you for this, I'm reading this thread scratching my head wondering just what the hell was going on

The main difference is Space Wolves have significantly stupid plot armor at this point.

Sounds more like Space marines in general. I mean they are the ones we all usually root for when we read the novels given we're all human ourselves.

I would say get used to it and that this is the type of bs expected of GW these days... But this is beyond simple bs. Even for modern GWs tendency to make extremely cheesey and terrible fluff, this sets a new standard. Ghaz effectively lost this fight as he got beheaded BEFORE he "won". Ragnar chopped his head off then probably let his guard down thinking Ghaz was dead. That's when Ghazzy pummelled him back, right before dropping dead then later being revived.

Completley downplays Ghazgkhulls whole schtick of being the epitome of the Ork threat. This fight is downright objectively pathetic.

123ply wrote:
I would say get used to it and that this is the type of bs expected of GW these days... But this is beyond simple bs. Even for modern GWs tendency to make extremely cheesey and terrible fluff, this sets a new standard. Ghaz effectively lost this fight as he got beheaded BEFORE he "won". Ragnar chopped his head off then probably let his guard down thinking Ghaz was dead. That's when Ghazzy pummelled him back, right before dropping dead then later being revived.

Completley downplays Ghazgkhulls whole schtick of being the epitome of the Ork threat. This fight is downright objectively pathetic.

or it shows how dangerous orks are by emphisising how hard they are to kill.

yeah, I think it goes more towards the innate toughness of the orks in that they can still kill you(even an Astartes) after being "killed".

123ply wrote:
Ragnar chopped his head off then probably let his guard down thinking Ghaz was dead. That's when Ghazzy pummelled him back, right before dropping dead then later being revived.

Citation needed. Where is this from?

 Jidmah wrote:

123ply wrote:
Ragnar chopped his head off then probably let his guard down thinking Ghaz was dead. That's when Ghazzy pummelled him back, right before dropping dead then later being revived.

Citation needed. Where is this from?

It's not from the saga of the beast Audio drama. In the audio drama what happens is Ragnar leaps at Ghz, shooting him with his pistol as he does, Ghaz grabs ragnar, (mangling the bolt pisto arm in the process) and is basicly crushing Ragnar's chest. Ghaz didn't, however grab both of Ragnar's arms and Ragnar's sword arm was free, and he basicly cut Ghaz's head off as Ghaz crushed his chest

BrianDavion wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

123ply wrote:
Ragnar chopped his head off then probably let his guard down thinking Ghaz was dead. That's when Ghazzy pummelled him back, right before dropping dead then later being revived.

Citation needed. Where is this from?

It's not from the saga of the beast Audio drama. In the audio drama what happens is Ragnar leaps at Ghz, shooting him with his pistol as he does, Ghaz grabs ragnar, (mangling the bolt pisto arm in the process) and is basicly crushing Ragnar's chest. Ghaz didn't, however grab both of Ragnar's arms and Ragnar's sword arm was free, and he basicly cut Ghaz's head off as Ghaz crushed his chest

Thanks for finally clearing up to me how he lost his head

Sounds like a decent end to their duel to me.

 Jidmah wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

123ply wrote:
Ragnar chopped his head off then probably let his guard down thinking Ghaz was dead. That's when Ghazzy pummelled him back, right before dropping dead then later being revived.

Citation needed. Where is this from?

It's not from the saga of the beast Audio drama. In the audio drama what happens is Ragnar leaps at Ghz, shooting him with his pistol as he does, Ghaz grabs ragnar, (mangling the bolt pisto arm in the process) and is basicly crushing Ragnar's chest. Ghaz didn't, however grab both of Ragnar's arms and Ragnar's sword arm was free, and he basicly cut Ghaz's head off as Ghaz crushed his chest

Thanks for finally clearing up to me how he lost his head

Sounds like a decent end to their duel to me.

what exactly happens after? Ghazzy theoretically dies, but does Ragnar die?

Beardedragon wrote:
what exactly happens after? Ghazzy theoretically dies, but does Ragnar die?

*krumps Beardedragon*

What feth? Did you get your brain squig get replaced with a stikkbomb? I explained that like three times in this thread already.

Neither dies.

Primaris wolves arrive find dying Ragnar, bring him back and take the chance of having him cross the rubcricon primaris because he has no chance of survival otherwise.
Bully boyz find Thrakka's head and body and bring them to Grotznik who sews his head back on, in addition to other improvements and gives him a new suit of armor.

It's also strongly implied Ghaz KNEW what would happen, he WANTED it to happen. as Ragnar cuts his head off he notes "this ain't the end, it's da beginnin!"

So lets get this straight...

They pose Raggy so he now looks like hes auditioning for the next stage production of Billy Elliot, while Ghaz is running around in a mech suit capable of obliterating an Armiger and ripping the leg off a Knight and beating another Armiger into pieces with it...



...and despite two large horns and an iron-work jaw protecting his neck, is decapitated...and survives with the help of the galaxy-wide famous BUPA health care system of the Orks...



...I can only ask...did Ragnar have his Weetabix that morning, and did Ghaz train under the Black Knight from Holy Grail?

Neither. The new models aren't reflective of how either Ragnar or Ghaz looked in their duel. Ragnar was still mini, Ghaz was still in his old metal/finecast sculpt. It's AFTER they mutual kill that they both get their model upgrades.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Neither. The new models aren't reflective of how either Ragnar or Ghaz looked in their duel. Ragnar was still mini, Ghaz was still in his old metal/finecast sculpt. It's AFTER they mutual kill that they both get their model upgrades.

And Ghaz still managed to survive decapitation. Definitely sounds like He enrolled in classes with the black knight. I'll bet Darth Maul was giving him envious looks...

Still, can't shoot the messenger. Cheers for clarifying.

 Jidmah wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
what exactly happens after? Ghazzy theoretically dies, but does Ragnar die?

*krumps Beardedragon*

What feth? Did you get your brain squig get replaced with a stikkbomb? I explained that like three times in this thread already.

Neither dies.

Primaris wolves arrive find dying Ragnar, bring him back and take the chance of having him cross the rubcricon primaris because he has no chance of survival otherwise.
Bully boyz find Thrakka's head and body and bring them to Grotznik who sews his head back on, in addition to other improvements and gives him a new suit of armor.

but isnt he dead if he lost his head and was just revived afterwards.I mean technically. I dont think ive heard of Orks not dying after losing a head.

and its so long in between me reading these messages and me making a reply that i forget what people wrote.

Beardedragon wrote:
but isnt he dead if he lost his head and was just revived afterwards.I mean technically. I dont think ive heard of Orks not dying after losing a head.

Orks losing bodyparts and getting them re-attached even days after is a well-established lore. Thrakka's own story was that he has lost large parts of his head, still had the strength to go see a doctor who then replaced the missing parts with a squig and an adamantium plate.

Why are you even getting angry about the fluff when you clearly don't even know half of it?