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 Jidmah wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
but isnt he dead if he lost his head and was just revived afterwards.I mean technically. I dont think ive heard of Orks not dying after losing a head.

Orks losing bodyparts and getting them re-attached even days after is a well-established lore. Thrakka's own story was that he has lost large parts of his head, still had the strength to go see a doctor who then replaced the missing parts with a squig and an adamantium plate.

Why are you even getting angry about the fluff when you clearly don't even know half of it?

thats why im asking. because i dont know. i was only angry if Thrakka was downplayed as a simple trash character when he was more or less the closest thing the orks had to "A" leader.

also losing an arm and putting it back is one thing, a head is another. so i ask

Beardedragon wrote:


also losing an arm and putting it back is one thing, a head is another. so i ask

you're severely underestimating the durability genetically engineered into them.

Racerguy180 wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:


also losing an arm and putting it back is one thing, a head is another. so i ask

you're severely underestimating the durability genetically engineered into them.

Yeah, for better or worse, losing a head and re-attaching it is a long held trope in Ork fluff writing. With that said, yes, GW's writing of the duel was incredibly lazy and uninspired.

Yeah, I'm not fond of the whole "mutual kill" trope on it's own, but coupled with the "they got better after!" and that Ragnar (while definitely *capable* of taking Ghaz out) really didn't have the narrative stake in the plot, it's not a great story.

But Ghaz/Ragnar physically being able to defeat the other, and survive the near death experiences they suffered? That's totally within the bounds of the established canon. And honestly, this whole thread seems to have been born from a kneejerk reaction and jumping to conclusions, as so many topics about modern GW lore are.

It's best to think of the 40k lore and the 40k game not being related.

Ragnar is a space marine hero, Ghaz is likely the most powerful ork around.

In terms of the game having Ragnar have a chance versus Ghaz given their stats and points, would be a joke. It would be similiar to an standard ork warboss with a powerklaw 1:1 Roboute and there being a DKO. In the game Rangar has 0 chance to kill Ghaz. Ghaz can basically choke 2/3 rounds of combat on every hit and still kill Ragnar on the third and Ragnar has 0 chances to kill Ghaz those first two rounds.

It's best to just ignore the lore of the game when it comes to the actual playing of the game, because the lore is written for SM fanbois mostly and makes no actual sense when you look at the game in terms of units cost and rules.

that's where you're wrong.

using their old stats from the 8th ediciton codices, and examining the fight you can see that what occured is very possiable in table top. Ok first of all, important thing here is that ragnar got the charge off on Ghaz in the story, so we'll use that as our basis.

Ragnar has on the charge 6+ 1d3 attacks each at S5, AP -4 and 2 damage. he has 4 toughness 3+ armor and 4++ invul. Ghaz for comparison has 8 wounds 6 toughness, , 2+ armor, 4++ invul and 5 S 12 AP -3 D3 attacks.

So Ragnar makes the charge. assuming he has 8 attacks he needs to hit and wound with half of them to kill Ghaz, he's hitting on 2s, wounding on 4s, and Ghaz is rolling a 4++ save

assuming ragnar is rolling reasonably lucky He can certainly kill Ghaz on the charge. but then in table top Ghaz can use the "Orks is never beaten" strat to fight even after dying and kill ragnar.

so yes, this DKO was ABSOLUTELY possiable in a table top enviroment. it required Ragnar to be a little lucky but it's def something that could have happened at the table top

BrianDavion wrote:
that's where you're wrong.

using their old stats from the 8th ediciton codices, and examining the fight you can see that what occured is very possiable in table top. Ok first of all, important thing here is that ragnar got the charge off on Ghaz in the story, so we'll use that as our basis.

Ragnar has on the charge 6+ 1d3 attacks each at S5, AP -4 and 2 damage. he has 4 toughness 3+ armor and 4++ invul. Ghaz for comparison has 8 wounds 6 toughness, , 2+ armor, 4++ invul and 5 S 12 AP -3 D3 attacks.

So Ragnar makes the charge. assuming he has 8 attacks he needs to hit and wound with half of them to kill Ghaz, he's hitting on 2s, wounding on 4s, and Ghaz is rolling a 4++ save

assuming ragnar is rolling reasonably lucky He can certainly kill Ghaz on the charge. but then in table top Ghaz can use the "Orks is never beaten" strat to fight even after dying and kill ragnar.

so yes, this DKO was ABSOLUTELY possiable in a table top enviroment. it required Ragnar to be a little lucky but it's def something that could have happened at the table top

No. None of those stats are what the 8th stats were.

Ragnar does not +d3 attacks for charging ontop of the +1, he had 5 attacks +1 for space marine charging, that are S5 vs. T6, let's imagine he hits with all his attacks, he then gets average wounds which is 2 wounds. Then Ghaz saves half due to 4++. 2 damage, that happens twice for two rounds is 4 damage which is half of old Ghaz health.

Its just not probable.

Ragnar needs 4 rounds of average combat to kill Ghaz for their original 8th rules.

Ghaz needs 1 round, 5 attacks, 4 hits, 4 wounds because S12 vs T4, ragnar saves 2 and the remaining 2 do 6 damage and kill him on an average roll.

What I'm seeing here, is multiple people doing mathhammer to show whether something that happened in lore could or could not have happened on the tabletop.

...have we learned nothing?! There's a reason "movie marines" was ever a thing.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Yeah, I'm not fond of the whole "mutual kill" trope on it's own, but coupled with the "they got better after!" and that Ragnar (while definitely *capable* of taking Ghaz out) really didn't have the narrative stake in the plot, it's not a great story.

But Ghaz/Ragnar physically being able to defeat the other, and survive the near death experiences they suffered? That's totally within the bounds of the established canon. And honestly, this whole thread seems to have been born from a kneejerk reaction and jumping to conclusions, as so many topics about modern GW lore are.

well you are right on.

I did make the thread after all so i can confirm lol

 Super Ready wrote:
What I'm seeing here, is multiple people doing mathhammer to show whether something that happened in lore could or could not have happened on the tabletop.

...have we learned nothing?! There's a reason "movie marines" was ever a thing.

Actually I did the math hammer to prove it was theoreticly possiable. Blaktoof is apparently trying to tell me I'm wrong about the stats despite having codex space wolves and codex orks in my lap.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
What I'm seeing here, is multiple people doing mathhammer to show whether something that happened in lore could or could not have happened on the tabletop.

...have we learned nothing?! There's a reason "movie marines" was ever a thing.

Actually I did the math hammer to prove it was theoreticly possiable. Beardeddragon is apparently trying to tell me I'm wrong about the stats despite having codex space wolves and codex orks in my lap.

what? i dont recall quoting you on anything

Orks are the most psykick rase. The bosses are bigger because all orks think bosses are bigger. Become big enough and enough orks think the living avatar can not die. It is a self forfilling prophesy with a positive feedback loop.

Beardedragon wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
What I'm seeing here, is multiple people doing mathhammer to show whether something that happened in lore could or could not have happened on the tabletop.

...have we learned nothing?! There's a reason "movie marines" was ever a thing.

Actually I did the math hammer to prove it was theoreticly possiable. Beardeddragon is apparently trying to tell me I'm wrong about the stats despite having codex space wolves and codex orks in my lap.

what? i dont recall quoting you on anything

whoops sorry was blaktoof. my bad.

Ragnar isn't really 'any old human'

Although granted, he definitely isn't the big bad beastie that ghaz is in the lore. Ghaz should be krumpin him!

The wonders of plot armour!

It is a symptom of having a game where characters are models that people own and is therefore unfair to kill them off... I mean look at calgar v abbadon on vigilus. What a shambles

Ragnar has sent Magnus the Red packing back to the Warp in his novels.

Magnus is leagues more powerful than Ghaz is. Compared to the plot armour he was wearing there, beating Ghaz isn't anything special.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Ragnar has sent Magnus the Red packing back to the Warp in his novels.

Magnus is leagues more powerful than Ghaz is. Compared to the plot armour he was wearing there, beating Ghaz isn't anything special.

well.. Sending Magnus packing back to the warp also kind of seems overpowered for a second in command.

what happens? like in a duel or what? or just his forces versus Ragnars?

I mean in a duel it would sound a bit.. underwhelming for a daemonic primarch to lose to little ascended primaris.Prophecies or not.

You're right that Magnus should clearly be too much for Ragnar alone... not that I know the specifics of that story.
But I really think you should be dropping the whole "second in command" comparison. Aptitude in commanding armies doesn't equal personal combat strength.

Look at Mephiston for example, he's an absolute beast in combat, easily the most dangerous fighter the Blood Angels have, yet it's Dante that's clearly their most gifted strategic mind.
Or Lelith Hesperax - touted as the most skilled, most dangerous gladiator ever, but in Drukhari culture she's basically more of a celebrity than a military figure.

Ragnar happened to own one of the two weapons that can actually wound Magnus, the spear of russ. He also didn't really defeat Magnus, he threw the spear at him to disrupt his concentration, which then cause the ritual to fail and prevented Magnus from entering realspace.

None of the space wolves ever actually fought Magnus in a duel, nor would any one of them stand the sliver of a chance. Logan wounded him once, but only as part of a large number of wolflords charging Magnus all at once, and only survived because Magnus both didn't know about the origin of his axe and was busy blasting the wolf lord with the spear of russ who was charging him at the same time.

I take it that's one of the two weapons that can actually wound him, "that the Space Wolves have access to"...?
Because I'd assume Grey Knights, Inquisitors etc. would have others.

 Jidmah wrote:
Ragnar happened to own one of the two weapons that can actually wound Magnus, the spear of russ. He also didn't really defeat Magnus, he threw the spear at him to disrupt his concentration, which then cause the ritual to fail and prevented Magnus from entering realspace.

None of the space wolves ever actually fought Magnus in a duel, nor would any one of them stand the sliver of a chance. Logan wounded him once, but only as part of a large number of wolflords charging Magnus all at once, and only survived because Magnus both didn't know about the origin of his axe and was busy blasting the wolf lord with the spear of russ who was charging him at the same time.

huh.. well that sounds like it would make sense.

 Super Ready wrote:
I take it that's one of the two weapons that can actually wound him, "that the Space Wolves have access to"...?
Because I'd assume Grey Knights, Inquisitors etc. would have others.

I'm not too sure on that, but Magnus is mostly considered invincible to direct attacks. While something like Draigo's blade, Mortarion's scythe or the Sword of the Emperor surely would be able to wound Magnus, I doubt that there are more than a few dozen things that can do so across the galaxy. We do know that the weapons carried by bloodthirsters can wound him though - that's why the Lorgar was able to draw blood, after all.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
I take it that's one of the two weapons that can actually wound him, "that the Space Wolves have access to"...?
Because I'd assume Grey Knights, Inquisitors etc. would have others.

I'm not too sure on that, but Magnus is mostly considered invincible to direct attacks. While something like Draigo's blade, Mortarion's scythe or the Sword of the Emperor surely would be able to wound Magnus, I doubt that there are more than a few dozen things that can do so across the galaxy. We do know that the weapons carried by bloodthirsters can wound him though - that's why the Lorgar was able to draw blood, after all.

Surely most Necron weapons would do that too given they're anti warp in nature

Beardedragon wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
I take it that's one of the two weapons that can actually wound him, "that the Space Wolves have access to"...?
Because I'd assume Grey Knights, Inquisitors etc. would have others.

I'm not too sure on that, but Magnus is mostly considered invincible to direct attacks. While something like Draigo's blade, Mortarion's scythe or the Sword of the Emperor surely would be able to wound Magnus, I doubt that there are more than a few dozen things that can do so across the galaxy. We do know that the weapons carried by bloodthirsters can wound him though - that's why the Lorgar was able to draw blood, after all.

Surely most Necron weapons would do that too given they're anti warp in nature

They are not. They're very thoroughly grounded in the material universe and (despite being nonsense sci-fi science) scientific principles.
The Blackstone obsession is their way of finding other tools that work, because the Warp is unexpectedly (to them) still a problem, but most necron weapons don't use it.

Kinda on topic...

Anybody know when they're planning on releasing the models individually? They sold out of the Prophecy of the Wolf set a lot faster than i thought they would.

my guess is when the space wolf supplement comes out so... Oct- December

Beardedragon wrote:
I mean in a duel it would sound a bit.. underwhelming for a daemonic primarch to lose to little ascended primaris.

You keep repeating this, yet it was plainly wrong both in his Ghaz fight, and in his Magnus fight. He was still squatmarine in both.

Can we keed this mindless, lacking any factual basis, 4chan grade, knee jerk primaris reeeing from one thread? Please?

 Jidmah wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
what exactly happens after? Ghazzy theoretically dies, but does Ragnar die?

*krumps Beardedragon*

What feth? Did you get your brain squig get replaced with a stikkbomb? I explained that like three times in this thread already.

Neither dies.

Primaris wolves arrive find dying Ragnar, bring him back and take the chance of having him cross the rubcricon primaris because he has no chance of survival otherwise.
Bully boyz find Thrakka's head and body and bring them to Grotznik who sews his head back on, in addition to other improvements and gives him a new suit of armor.

I'm going to have to correct you here since dying is literally part of the process in crossing the Rubicon Primaris. That's why it's a risky operation because they might not being able to be brought back when they're supposed to.

Granted, you die on the operating table, but you still die before it's done.

 Irbis wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
I mean in a duel it would sound a bit.. underwhelming for a daemonic primarch to lose to little ascended primaris.

You keep repeating this, yet it was plainly wrong both in his Ghaz fight, and in his Magnus fight. He was still squatmarine in both.

Can we keed this mindless, lacking any factual basis, 4chan grade, knee jerk primaris reeeing from one thread? Please?

keep in mind the bit with Magnus isn't exactly "Ragnar grabs a weapon and beats on magnus* it's basicly the cumumulation of a mult book saga and was basicly ragnar throwing a magic weapon at a guy walking through a door.

 Platuan4th wrote:
I'm going to have to correct you here since dying is literally part of the process in crossing the Rubicon Primaris. That's why it's a risky operation because they might not being able to be brought back when they're supposed to.

Granted, you die on the operating table, but you still die before it's done.

Interesting, I didn't know that. By chance, do you remember where you read that?

I think it's mentioned/reinforced in the Vigilus stuff when Calgar crosses the Rubicon.

However, I don't really class it as a particularly important "death" when you get back up again from it. Especially when it's a surgically induced "death".