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What used to be a simple rule to understand is now a bit more complicated as the scouts don't exist on the battlefield for many purposes while embarked.

Can you measure off the hull of the speeder 12'' and rapid fire a unit with the scouts?

Can you remain stationary with the speeder and rapid fire with the scouts inside?

Can you apply stratagems to the scouts while embarked?

Open topped was never a simple rule. RAW, its a disaster. See the other thread in YMDC : https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/791436.page

You measure distance and LOS from the model (land speeder). Whatever move the transport did also applies to the embarked unit. If the transport advanced the embarked unit cannot shoot. However, the transport rule says that embarked units cannot be affected by anything. So this advance and not shoot would affect them in any way, which isnt possible. You cant play stratagems on an embarked unit, because its not on the battlefield.

 p5freak wrote:
Open topped was never a simple rule. RAW, its a disaster. See the other thread in YMDC : https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/791436.page

You measure distance and LOS from the model (land speeder). Whatever move the transport did also applies to the embarked unit. If the transport advanced the embarked unit cannot shoot. However, the transport rule says that embarked units cannot be affected by anything. So this advance and not shoot would affect them in any way, which isnt possible. You cant play stratagems on an embarked unit, because its not on the battlefield.

Stratagems can clearly be applied to things not on the battlefield, otherwise how would Webway Strike work?

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Open topped was never a simple rule. RAW, its a disaster. See the other thread in YMDC : https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/791436.page

You measure distance and LOS from the model (land speeder). Whatever move the transport did also applies to the embarked unit. If the transport advanced the embarked unit cannot shoot. However, the transport rule says that embarked units cannot be affected by anything. So this advance and not shoot would affect them in any way, which isnt possible. You cant play stratagems on an embarked unit, because its not on the battlefield.

Stratagems can clearly be applied to things not on the battlefield, otherwise how would Webway Strike work?

It specifies that you're using it on a unit not on the board. Just because it specifies working on such a unit does not mean that all stratagems will work on units not on the board, only stratagems that specify it.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Open topped was never a simple rule. RAW, its a disaster. See the other thread in YMDC : https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/791436.page

You measure distance and LOS from the model (land speeder). Whatever move the transport did also applies to the embarked unit. If the transport advanced the embarked unit cannot shoot. However, the transport rule says that embarked units cannot be affected by anything. So this advance and not shoot would affect them in any way, which isnt possible. You cant play stratagems on an embarked unit, because its not on the battlefield.

Stratagems can clearly be applied to things not on the battlefield, otherwise how would Webway Strike work?

Because Webway strike says it can.

Wait wait wait. Does this mean my opponent can not stratagem his flashgits to shoot long while in the transport?

He most definitely cannot.

holy smokes the open topped travesty applies to a Marines unit! We're saved!

Now we're bound to get an FAQ!

on topic, yeah no strats can be played on Orks in transports, which is a shame as orks are an army which once thrived on transports.

HIWPI and RAI is that you measure from the hull for the weapon range of the unit inside.

RAW, I'm not sure-Open Topped vehicles are a flipping MESS.

Open topped is a complete disaster RAW, with results varying from "dumb" to "absurd" to "literally unknown because the terms aren't defined."

It's by far the biggest mess of a rule in 40k and it's a bit mind-boggling they didn't fix it for 9th. I can only think they took a look at it, got a headache, and decided to pretend the rule didn't exist.

I swear back in the days of 5th opened topped had it's own decent section next to the transport rules. Wish they had brought that back to properly flesh out the rule. It is pretty important to a handful of armies.

cody.d. wrote:
I swear back in the days of 5th opened topped had it's own decent section next to the transport rules. Wish they had brought that back to properly flesh out the rule. It is pretty important to a handful of armies.

This is what happens when you go back to 3rd edition "Bespoke, same-named" rules on various units instead of a simple concise USR set-up. Not sure how many people still remember the 3 variants of "True Grit" in 3rd; that all did basically the same thing, but also slightly different between SW, GK, and DG.

Open-topped could easily be a standardized rule, as can Deep-strike(in the current format of "set-up somewhere other than the battlefield, then set up again during a turn"); but no, we have varied open-topped rules, and fairly consistent strangely named deep strike rules.

Yeah, but all the versions of open-topped are dumpster fires. It's not like one works and the others don't. They're all useless word jumbles.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Yeah, but all the versions of open-topped are dumpster fires. It's not like one works and the others don't. They're all useless word jumbles.

Not true: Stormlord and Banehammer from our beloved guard have functioning open-topped rules as written.

Simple "Up to 10(/20) models being transported by a Banehammer(/Stormlord) can shoot in their Shooting phase, measuring
and drawing line of sight from any point on the vehicle. Units that shoot in this manner count as having moved if
they or the Banehammer(/Stormlord) moved in the preceding Movement phase."

It does not deal with any of the modifier/effect/whatever on the vehicle also working towards the embarked unit; just a simple special rule that overrides the more basal Embarked unit restriction and a quick "how to resolve this and how the embarked unit are effected".

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Not true: Stormlord and Banehammer from our beloved guard have functioning open-topped rules as written.
Simple "Up to 10(/20) models being transported by a Banehammer(/Stormlord) can shoot in their Shooting phase, measuring
and drawing line of sight from any point on the vehicle. Units that shoot in this manner count as having moved if
they or the Banehammer(/Stormlord) moved in the preceding Movement phase."
It does not deal with any of the modifier/effect/whatever on the vehicle also working towards the embarked unit; just a simple special rule that overrides the more basal Embarked unit restriction and a quick "how to resolve this and how the embarked unit are effected".

I notice this doesn't say anything about abilities, which is a key part of many of open-topped's current issues.
Do any of the potential units being transported have possibly contentious abilities on their own datasheets, including the abilities part of their shooting weapon profiles?

(added) Found examples already. The Command Squad can take a heavy flamer, per RAW this no longer automatically hits. Company Commanders can take a shotgun, which no longer gets +1S at half range. Tempestus Scions have access to SO many special weapons, including plasma guns which can no longer kill their bearer on a 1 when they're embarked.

Even within this tortured reading of RAW, the abilities of a weapon still apply because it is embarked units that are not affected by abilities, not attacks made by the unit.

That doesn't stop the plasma example, which would affect the firing unit. There's also a Necron ability that affects the unit shooting at it with mortal wounds.
In any case - whatever your position on the matter, there are enough other threads on the topic that it's reasonable to argue that it's not clear enough, and sadly another example of an open-topped rule that has issues, which was the reason I mentioned it.