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Please forgive my noob question but I have hunted across the internet, asked on Reddit and got "RTFM, Noob" despite the fact that the rules are scattered across books and I don't know where to look for the answer and I just want a simple answer to what should be a simple question.

I'm currently putting together my first unit. I'm not sure if I want to actually get into the playing yet, but I just want to start with just a simple small Patrol Detachment that is fully battle-forged, etc that I can have fun building and painting but if I want to later I can add to/reinforce and play with.

So Patrol Detachment

1-2 - HQ

3 - Troops

2 - Elites

0-2 FA

0-2 Hvy Sppt

0-2 Flyers

So I want to go Death Korps of Krieg, problem is I absolutely hate the Death Riders. I don't want lance cavalry. I want a mechanized option for my FA slots. Ideally I'd like to swap the Death Riders out with Armored Sentinels. But Sentinels aren't part of the Death Korps weapons list.

So lets say I theoretically put together:

HQ:

1 Company Commander
1 Lord Commissar

Troops:

2 DKoK Infantry
1 DKoK Grenadier Storm Squad

Elites:
2 DKoK Combat Engineers

Fast Attack:
2 Armored Sentineals

Hvy Support:
2 Leman Russ(variants to TBD)

Flyer:
TBD but Krieg compliant.

All the rest of the units except the FA are DEATH KORPS OF KRIEG keyworded, obviously the Sentinels are not.

So how does this affect the detachment as far as orders/strategems/detachment buffs, etc?

As of right now, everything should work as normal as Death Korps don't have a regimental doctrine etc. In the normal sense. But mind that a Forgeworld "codex" is planned which might shake things up.

On another note: if it is just an aversion against the look, you could use some kind of proxy. Think for example bikers or guys with jumppacks or something armed with demolition charges. As long as they are on rough rider bases and use the datasheet I don't see the problem.

Right now it works fine, as DKOK don't need a "pure" detachment to benefit from their special rule.

All that will happen is that you won't get any trait on the sentinels. It's a legal ASTRA MILITARUM detachment, so will unlock stratagems.

Like Pyroalchi says, counts-as might be an option (even if not strictly legal by the rules).

I didn't know you could mess with models like that, but the Death Riders just seem literally to be one trick ponies. You keep them hidden and then when the infantry creates a weakness you charge them in. FIne, but I want something less specialized, more survivable and useful. From what I have read, Sentinels would really add some necessary firepower to what looks like to me as a woefully undergunned formation without them.

I'm gonna tell you right out that this is a bad idea.

you've got rules for DKOK that are currently older than every other facitons' rules in the game. In my opinion, the odds that they get new rules that make this not work in the new FW indexes is like 90%.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, sentinels just aren't worth it my friend. They're not very good units. They mount exactly 1 gun on them, and die super easily.

the_scotsman wrote:
I'm gonna tell you right out that this is a bad idea.

you've got rules for DKOK that are currently older than every other facitons' rules in the game. In my opinion, the odds that they get new rules that make this not work in the new FW indexes is like 90%.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, sentinels just aren't worth it my friend. They're not very good units. They mount exactly 1 gun on them, and die super easily.

Alright. So I guess I should just wait and watch for the new rules to drop and buy a couple space marines to paint :(

Not necessarily. For starters you should always collect what you want to, if it turns out later that Death Korps don't have special rules, you can still run them as Astra Militarum of another flavour anyway. Not sure what you'd do for the Forgeworld-only units, but as mentioned you can always proxy things (opponent willing, of course).

To give a little insight on how this might work if new rules do drop - let's say Sentinels are no longer possible in a Death Korps detachment.
You can still run them in a separate Auxiliary Support Detachment, that's the one that allows you to field a unit on its own without any command benefits, for the princely sum of 2CP.
That way, the rest of your army is still in a Death Korps detachment and still gets to use stratagems, etc.

 Super Ready wrote:
Not necessarily. For starters you should always collect what you want to, if it turns out later that Death Korps don't have special rules, you can still run them as Astra Militarum of another flavour anyway. Not sure what you'd do for the Forgeworld-only units, but as mentioned you can always proxy things (opponent willing, of course).

To give a little insight on how this might work if new rules do drop - let's say Sentinels are no longer possible in a Death Korps detachment.
You can still run them in a separate Auxiliary Support Detachment, that's the one that allows you to field a unit on its own without any command benefits, for the princely sum of 2CP.
That way, the rest of your army is still in a Death Korps detachment and still gets to use stratagems, etc.

Well there ARE other mechanized options available that Krieg uses besides Death Riders. Currently I can go with Hellhounds or Salamanders or 1 of each.

The problem I have with this game isn't the rules so much as the sheer expense of models means you have be extremely careful in how you build your army and if you screw it up, you just lost your investment. As a noob it is intimidating because you can't just "build any old army" and expect it to play well when the rules are sooooo complicated. I don't understand how newbs grow to be veterans when if you screw up your list and buy a bunch of wrong or useless stuff, well sorry buddy those models just became expensive toys on a shelf.

I just want to build this detachment so that I can go to my local GW store or wherever and find some people to play short games that I can learn from, even if it isn't perfect as far as competitiveness goes.

What I would really recommend then would be to clear up how the people at your placed think about proxies (as long as it is obvious) and magnetize what you can.

If they are cool with it, you could (for example) build a chimera with just gunports instead of the lasguns array (just leave the small lasguns and put some flat pieces of plastic there)
Magnetize the turret weapon for the usual chimera options, Autocannon (gryphonne chimera) twin flamer (counts as Hellhound) and then take a piece of plastic that fits over the "turret hole" and glue on a turretless Autocannon (Salamander Scout), heavy flamer (Salamander Command) and Mortar (Gryphon mortar carrier). If you feel like it you can also so a little crane out of plastic Spreu (Trojan)

The mentioned heavy weapons are often surplus from heavy weapons teams and I think lots of guard players have spares.

This way you basically can switch between half a dozen datasheets with only one model, so the risk of invalidating it or "buying into useless stuff" is rather small.

Also, buy the models you like. The meta ebbs and flows. Units that are great now aren’t the best down the line. If you like the models and enjoy modelling/painting then it’s almost more important than in-game performance... unless you’re looking at purely WAAC tourney wannabe lists.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Also, buy the models you like. The meta ebbs and flows. Units that are great now aren’t the best down the line. If you like the models and enjoy modelling/painting then it’s almost more important than in-game performance... unless you’re looking at purely WAAC tourney wannabe lists.

Yeah, this.
Bear in mind that we gripe a lot online, but the reality is that actual games in clubs are often a lot more casual than the hyperbole you can find here. Your army might well be a bit underpowered but it's not likely to be completely useless, and you can still do very well simply by playing to the missions.

 Super Ready wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Also, buy the models you like. The meta ebbs and flows. Units that are great now aren’t the best down the line. If you like the models and enjoy modelling/painting then it’s almost more important than in-game performance... unless you’re looking at purely WAAC tourney wannabe lists.

Yeah, this.
Bear in mind that we gripe a lot online, but the reality is that actual games in clubs are often a lot more casual than the hyperbole you can find here. Your army might well be a bit underpowered but it's not likely to be completely useless, and you can still do very well simply by playing to the missions.

Well as a total noob and relatively poor. It's going to take me a year to cobble together just this patrol detachment and buying a 2000 pt army is likely to take a good deal longer.

I've been looking into it and a Hellhound/Devil Dog pair could be pretty brutal when played right and would make it through the update safely most likely.

Now the question I have are the rules regarding the Leman Russ and DKoK. The lists imply that you MUST have an Alpha pattern Russ for DKoK. But I would assume most people won't care if you just have a couple standard Russes given the rarity of the Mars Alpha pattern? I've seen some online but #1 they are already painted and assembled, big nono to me and 2 they are most likely recasts anyway and I'd almost be better off buying a regular russ and finding the Alpha Pattern bits like the trench rack and hooded lasgun port on the front hull somewhere else later on.

As you said, strictly speaking DKoK can only use the Mars Alpha Leman Russ pattern.

However, 99% of players won't even know such a thing exists or the difference between the two and 99.9% of the 1% that do know won't care if you use normal Leman Russ models in place of them, even if it's technically not following the rules.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
As you said, strictly speaking DKoK can only use the Mars Alpha Leman Russ pattern.

However, 99% of players won't even know such a thing exists or the difference between the two and 99.9% of the 1% that do know won't care if you use normal Leman Russ models in place of them, even if it's technically not following the rules.

That's what I was hoping. Awesome. Guess I'm going down to check out the Games Workshop near me this weekend and pick up my first Russ!

The Death Riders are badass models

Are taurox legal in the dkok?.

Dukeofstuff wrote:
Are taurox legal in the dkok?.

Datasheets on DKoK only offer Salamanders, Hellhounds and its variants or Death Riders in the FA category. But now that I know a entire rules revision is coming I'm not sure of anything lol

My recommendation: Don't build a DKoK List until the new Forge World Index comes out and you have the rules for how to build and play that army. So many things can change between now and then, that you just won't be able to make an intelligent decision until that time.

However, you can start work on a Astra Militarum army using DKoK models. You've already said it will take you a year to get a Patrol Detachment, so start with the units you will most certainly need and be able to use either a DKoK or AM. You know you will need 1-3 Infantry Squads. You know you will need a Company Commander. Start there. Hope you get clarity before you need to move on toward more specialized list.

I will note in passing that I built some very cheap and easy conquerer battle tanks out of leman russes by shortening the gun barrel a bit and gluing (well, magnetizing) a coaxial stormbolter on them. I believe it will work just as well with a coaxial heavy stubber for the DKOK version of the Conquerer, which is one of the best non-tank commander leman russ in the game.
Pair 3 tank commander with 2 of these, and you have got about 1000 points already done, although you would have to buy 5 LRBT kits to do it. I doubt 1 guy in 5 even knows the differences in armor and such that signify "mars pattern conquerer " vs "bog standerd normal leman russ armor". Well, maybe in here, smart crowd, but in a gamestore, some tau player or orc player you match up wtih friendly, he knows not nor cares he, as long as the tank is played by the right rules and the game is fun.

I too think that few would really insist on Mars Alpha Pattern Leman Russ looking really different.

Nontheless I know of at least two companies that sell kits to turn a normal LR into a Mars Alpha pattern:
https://www.modelsandminis.com/Tank_Hull_Extension_Conversion_Kit_For_Leman_Russ/p2965327_20696565.aspx
https://www.modelsandminis.com/28mm_Tank_trench_rails/p2965327_13599597.aspx
https://bitsofwar.com/home/1266-ipo-bundle.html

But that would of course also be a case of: "better clear up how your gaming locality thinks about third party stuff"

Besides that I think (!) most gamers are more relaxed regarding the exact optics of a model, than you assume. One half of my collection are african tribal themed guardsmen that I want to run with Death Korps rules as those would best reflect their lore and asking around a bit here on Dakka at least no one said he would mind that. As long as it is clear what it is supposed to be, most don't seem to mind.

siliconmagician wrote:


Well as a total noob and relatively poor. It's going to take me a year to cobble together just this patrol detachment and buying a 2000 pt army is likely to take a good deal longer.

If you're concerned about affording it at this point, I'd really ask yourself how wedded to DKoK you are. Jumping straight in to a Forge World army, and one with a high model count at that, is just about the most expensive way to play Warhammer that there is.

Crispy78 wrote:

siliconmagician wrote:


Well as a total noob and relatively poor. It's going to take me a year to cobble together just this patrol detachment and buying a 2000 pt army is likely to take a good deal longer.

If you're concerned about affording it at this point, I'd really ask yourself how wedded to DKoK you are. Jumping straight in to a Forge World army, and one with a high model count at that, is just about the most expensive way to play Warhammer that there is.

At the outside, I’d suggest using Codex Astra Militarum rules not the Index so you’ve a wider unit choice but the aesthetic you like. And rules that are vaguely coherent instead of the FW IA Indexes that are... odd. I have that book and it’s a genuine mess.

Crispy78 wrote:

siliconmagician wrote:


Well as a total noob and relatively poor. It's going to take me a year to cobble together just this patrol detachment and buying a 2000 pt army is likely to take a good deal longer.

If you're concerned about affording it at this point, I'd really ask yourself how wedded to DKoK you are. Jumping straight in to a Forge World army, and one with a high model count at that, is just about the most expensive way to play Warhammer that there is.

A) Because I'm not sure if I really want to get into playing yet but I want to build an army that if I do decide to learn to play with, I can do so.

B)I have all the time in the world. Right now I just want to build and paint models, but I'm keeping an eye out for the future. A couple months ago I just got completely accidentally drawn into the lore and decided to pick up a few novels and got hooked. DKoK is only bad now because they have completely ceased production and if this rules drop everyone is talking about updates DKoK (and what I'm reading on the net elsewhere seems to think so) then FW will whip up a batch and while they may be expensive. I can afford to buy a squad at a time and spend a month painting them before turning to the next squad. The vehicles are all bog standard AM stuff from what I can see and plenty affordable. $50-$60 for a leman russ or for Hellhounds don't seem unreasonable to me at all and 75.00-80.00 for a squad doesn't seem expensive to me when spread out over a year or so.

C)The entire project is to build 2 detachments. 1 of DKoK and another one Necron. But Necrons are all good and bright and multicolored and really deserve an experienced painter DKoK is all blacks, greys, blues and browns. I can buy a half dozen paints and brushes and get to work on DKoK. A proper Necron paint will take a long time to do and require more stuff. So I choose the DKoK first.

I'm in no rush and with the 9th edition drop I'm hoping FW cranks out the miniatures again making them available. If not, I'll just go with Plan B and start a Necron army instead or compromise and just get legit vehicles and settle for quality DKoK recasts somewhere.

You know what? I think you may have the skill level the wrong way round with the Necrons. Being largely metallic, they can be very very quickly painted either via drybrushing, or by spraying them metal then giving them a dark wash - if you're not familiar with either technique, there's plenty of tutorials both here and on Youtube - meaning you only need to worry about the little details.

Are you doing DKoK mainly due the look of the models? Because I recommend just using the models but using the normal Astra Militarum codex for the rules, or at least keeping that in mind as an option. Then you can have the sentinels regardless of how the FW rules are handled.

 Crimson wrote:
Are you doing DKoK mainly due the look of the models? Because I recommend just using the models but using the normal Astra Militarum codex for the rules, or at least keeping that in mind as an option. Then you can have the sentinels regardless of how the FW rules are handled.

I will explain in detail why I'm so adamant on DKoK. I may not understand all the rules of 40k or all the intricacies but I am an avid military history buff and turn based strategy player for 30 years. So I have a general game strategy in mind already I'm trying to achieve.

1)I want a human army. Not superhuman astartes or xenos. Just GI Joe fighting for the Emperor.

2)Everyone keeps looking at DKoK as this outdated, archaic slow grind, meat shield army and I'm sure it was. But with the addition of infantry transport, this changes the entire dynamic for Krieg. Now Krieg goes from being a trench army, to Panzergrenadiers. Load a bunch of grenadiers/infantry into Centaurs backed up by a couple tanks and a Hellhound and Devil Dog. Drive that armored fist straight into the enemies weaknesses and into rapid fire range, then vomit out your new Krieg Panzer Grenadiers from the transports and Move! Move! Move! into the horde and hope your morale holds. The fact that Krieg Morale is such that they ignore losses means it should. Make sure that your Kriegers are well led and have plenty of leaders to keep that morale going and either obliterate your foe, or be redeemed in the eyes of the Emperor.

That is why I want to play DKoK.

What free transit are you talking about? Them things cost about 50 points for the hull, + guns.
Did I miss a major shift in the rules and transports are free now? I know that was the case in one prior edition of marines, but have heard no chirp of it in 8 or 9.

Incidentally, your arguments for krieg were very much my arguments for elysia and scions, back in 8th, and remain my arguments for scions now. I TOTALLY get the "I want a human army, not freak xenos or cheatery marines, and make it work despite the odds."
TOTALLY. Even if I go about it a bit different, YANA. You. Are. Not. Alone!

In fact, after all the discussions in here, I am looking at making my own little krieg armor patrol column, something like 1 officer, 3 grenadier squads, a command squad, and 2 taurox, to stick in the middle of my army (and back up with a trio of those excellent, cheap, conquere battle tanks and maybe a single tank commander, and a single wyvern or basilisk.)

Its not that many models to assemble and paint, and it would be a really cool ground element to put beside the scions' air mobile contribution, and feel like a real combined arms op.

Dukeofstuff wrote:
What free transit are you talking about? Them things cost about 50 points for the hull, + guns.
Did I miss a major shift in the rules and transports are free now? I know that was the case in one prior edition of marines, but have heard no chirp of it in 8 or 9.

I must have misunderstood what I've been reading then. My bad.

siliconmagician wrote:
2)Everyone keeps looking at DKoK as this outdated, archaic slow grind, meat shield army and I'm sure it was. But with the addition of infantry transport, this changes the entire dynamic for Krieg. Now Krieg goes from being a trench army, to Panzergrenadiers. Load a bunch of grenadiers/infantry into Centaurs backed up by a couple tanks and a Hellhound and Devil Dog. Drive that armored fist straight into the enemies weaknesses and into rapid fire range, then vomit out your new Krieg Panzer Grenadiers from the transports and Move! Move! Move! into the horde and hope your morale holds. The fact that Krieg Morale is such that they ignore losses means it should. Make sure that your Kriegers are well led and have plenty of leaders to keep that morale going and either obliterate your foe, or be redeemed in the eyes of the Emperor.

That is why I want to play DKoK.

A good and valid reason. My only caution to you is we don't know if the DKoK you envision playing will be the DKoK GW publishes when the new Forge World indexes are released. We are pretty sure they will be in it, but not how their rules will be covered. I expect they will be a AM Regiment with a few unique units and the normal mix of unique items (Regimental Trait, Warlord Trait, Stratagem, Relic). Only time will tell.

 alextroy wrote:

siliconmagician wrote:
2)Everyone keeps looking at DKoK as this outdated, archaic slow grind, meat shield army and I'm sure it was. But with the addition of infantry transport, this changes the entire dynamic for Krieg. Now Krieg goes from being a trench army, to Panzergrenadiers. Load a bunch of grenadiers/infantry into Centaurs backed up by a couple tanks and a Hellhound and Devil Dog. Drive that armored fist straight into the enemies weaknesses and into rapid fire range, then vomit out your new Krieg Panzer Grenadiers from the transports and Move! Move! Move! into the horde and hope your morale holds. The fact that Krieg Morale is such that they ignore losses means it should. Make sure that your Kriegers are well led and have plenty of leaders to keep that morale going and either obliterate your foe, or be redeemed in the eyes of the Emperor.

That is why I want to play DKoK.

A good and valid reason. My only caution to you is we don't know if the DKoK you envision playing will be the DKoK GW publishes when the new Forge World indexes are released. We are pretty sure they will be in it, but not how their rules will be covered. I expect they will be a AM Regiment with a few unique units and the normal mix of unique items (Regimental Trait, Warlord Trait, Stratagem, Relic). Only time will tell.

That's why I came here first before I went blowing money on impulse buys. I just come and asked a few questions and got what I needed to go out and read more online. So this place has really helped me. Thank you to all of you.