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Some units have a built in modifier in some cases.

Necron tomb blades are -1 to be hit by shooting. Ok.

But now in 9e this means terrain does them no good, it also means a unit can move and fire heavy weapons at them with no penalty but they would have a penalty if fried at something else because of the +-1 limit.

I just want to suggest if a unit had a built in modifier like being -1 to be shot at or something similar it should not count at part of the +-1 limit.

So if tomb blades would get a cover mod to be hit, they get a -2 total to be hit. I suppose if a unit movies and fired heavy weapons it would stay -2 instead of -3, but even so it still doesn't magically make terrain not matter.

 Matt Swain wrote:
Some units have a built in modifier in some cases.

Necron tomb blades are -1 to be hit by shooting. Ok.

But now in 9e this means terrain does them no good, it also means a unit can move and fire heavy weapons at them with no penalty but they would have a penalty if fried at something else because of the +-1 limit.

I just want to suggest if a unit had a built in modifier like being -1 to be shot at or something similar it should not count at part of the +-1 limit.

So if tomb blades would get a cover mod to be hit, they get a -2 total to be hit. I suppose if a unit movies and fired heavy weapons it would stay -2 instead of -3, but even so it still doesn't magically make terrain not matter.

Built in modifiers was exactly what the problem was with Alaitoc flyers, -2 Alaitoc flyers everywhere is pretty bad, even if it's not as bad as potentially -3/-4 Alaitoc flyers. TBs just need a pts decrease to recover from the introduction of blasts, the changes to modifiers and the nerf to flying dakka units.

Doesn't that extra minus to hit still come into effect vs something that has multiple + to hit? I know the end modifier is capped at -1/+1 but the cumulative modifiers still have to be accounted for in getting to the result right?

CptMendoza wrote:
Doesn't that extra minus to hit still come into effect vs something that has multiple + to hit? I know the end modifier is capped at -1/+1 but the cumulative modifiers still have to be accounted for in getting to the result right?

Yes. being -2 to hit means you end up being -1 to hit even if the enemy has a +1 to hit modifier.

More generally, I would love to see a change that would limit what can be gained per source (you, your opponent and terrain). With natural 6's always hitting, it would (personally) make more intuitive sense and feel better in play if you could have -1 from, say, being a Tomb Blade which would not stack with any Necron stratagems, in addition to -1 from terrain as well as -1 from the attacker legging it with Heavy weapons and so on.

I certainly feel like moving with heavy weapons should always be added, as this is your own decision. you shouldn't be running around with your lascannons because "heck, I'm shooting at planes anyway".

if moving with heavy weapons was a -1 to BS then it would work.

 some bloke wrote:
I certainly feel like moving with heavy weapons should always be added, as this is your own decision. you shouldn't be running around with your lascannons because "heck, I'm shooting at planes anyway".

if moving with heavy weapons was a -1 to BS then it would work.

Lootas have been doing it for years and Otks are immune to -2 BS, why shouldn't AM HWTs do it and be immune as well?

 vict0988 wrote:

 some bloke wrote:
I certainly feel like moving with heavy weapons should always be added, as this is your own decision. you shouldn't be running around with your lascannons because "heck, I'm shooting at planes anyway".

if moving with heavy weapons was a -1 to BS then it would work.

Lootas have been doing it for years and Otks are immune to -2 BS, why shouldn't AM HWTs do it and be immune as well?

Because Orks have a built in special rule which makes 6's always hit, which relates to their propensity to replace the intervening air gap entirely with bullets. Orks are paying for the ability to always hit on 6's, and it was put in specifically because of the excessive amount of -2 to hit combos out there.

AM HWT's at -2 to hit have the same chance of hitting as orks at -2 to hit, being a 6+. I might equally ask why Orks who dedicate their battles to shooting wouldn't hit on a 4+ like AM HWT's?

I feel like your own actions should reduce your BS, but your opponents actions should apply modifiers. then you could have a more mobile game, by saying:

move + Heavy = -1BS
advance + not assault = -1BS

so you could have a marine sprint out of cover and fire a missile whilst diving into cover, but it would be at BS5+ instead of 3+, and can still get +1 or -1 to hit from other modifiers - if he was shooting at a flier, he'd hit on a 6.

A HWT attempting the same maneuver would hit on a 6+ normally and couldn't hit the flier.

As the limits are in place, I suspect orks will lose their "6's always hit" next time they get a codex (it's effectively redundant right now). With this it would mean that a loota could move and hit on 6's, or stand still and hit a flier on 6's, but couldn't move/advance/fire unless they had +1 to hit from somewhere.

 some bloke wrote:
Because Orks have a built in special rule which makes 6's always hit, which relates to their propensity to replace the intervening air gap entirely with bullets.

Everyone has it now.

Orks are paying for the ability to always hit on 6's, and it was put in specifically because of the excessive amount of -2 to hit combos out there.

AM pts have been updated for 9th to reflect the changes, so they are paying for it just as much as Lootas "paid" for it when they first came out.

AM HWT's at -2 to hit have the same chance of hitting as orks at -2 to hit, being a 6+.

But that would be unfair now that AM are paying for only ever getting -1 right?

I might equally ask why Orks who dedicate their battles to shooting wouldn't hit on a 4+ like AM HWT's?

I thought it was because Orks were more dedicated to filling the air than their opponents with bullets. /s

As the limits are in place, I suspect orks will lose their "6's always hit" next time they get a codex (it's effectively redundant right now). With this it would mean that a loota could move and hit on 6's, or stand still and hit a flier on 6's, but couldn't move/advance/fire unless they had +1 to hit from somewhere.

It seems to me that Orks need a rather large amount of changes, I still hate stacking penalties, you must too if you played Index Orks against -2 to hit units and if some weirdness is what must be paid so that the writers might rid of us -5 to hit then I will not complain.

 vict0988 wrote:

 some bloke wrote:
Because Orks have a built in special rule which makes 6's always hit, which relates to their propensity to replace the intervening air gap entirely with bullets.

Everyone has it now.

Orks are paying for the ability to always hit on 6's, and it was put in specifically because of the excessive amount of -2 to hit combos out there.

AM pts have been updated for 9th to reflect the changes, so they are paying for it just as much as Lootas "paid" for it when they first came out. [/quote
ok

AM HWT's at -2 to hit have the same chance of hitting as orks at -2 to hit, being a 6+.

But that would be unfair now that AM are paying for only ever getting -1 right?

not really, everything is currently capped at -1 and, presumably, costed somewhat accordingly.

I might equally ask why Orks who dedicate their battles to shooting wouldn't hit on a 4+ like AM HWT's?

I thought it was because Orks were more dedicated to filling the air than their opponents with bullets. /s

As the limits are in place, I suspect orks will lose their "6's always hit" next time they get a codex (it's effectively redundant right now). With this it would mean that a loota could move and hit on 6's, or stand still and hit a flier on 6's, but couldn't move/advance/fire unless they had +1 to hit from somewhere.

It seems to me that Orks need a rather large amount of changes, I still hate stacking penalties, you must too if you played Index Orks against -2 to hit units and if some weirdness is what must be paid so that the writers might rid of us -5 to hit then I will not complain.

I agree that what we have now is significantly better than having so many modifiers on something that it literally cannot be targeted.

I do still feel that if a unit is at -1 to hit a flier anyway, and the player chooses to have them walk around whilst trying to shoot it, that is the players own decision and should be accounted for.

I'd have modifiers be spit into players own decision (advance + assault, move + heavy, big guns never tire + heavy) and exernal factors (cover, opponents rules). Have all the former ones give a ballistic-skill modifier and all the latter ones give a to hit modifier, capped at +1/-1. it's an easy adjustment to prevent your invisible or flying unit from giving your opponent an advantage (shooting a flier anyway, might as well roll my lootas around in a trukk at full speed then).

if everyone always hits on a 6 nowadays, it's not going to be that big of a deal, is it?

I would be ok with units with AIRCRAFT keyword or at least Hard to Hit rule giving up to -2 to hit. It would also be fun if it could also ignore/force some sort of hit penalty against 'always hits' weapons for immersion purposes, especially now that flamers are mostly going up to 12" range.

I would be wary of removing the -1 to hit limit globally though.

 skchsan wrote:
I would be ok with units with AIRCRAFT keyword or at least Hard to Hit rule giving up to -2 to hit. It would also be fun if it could also ignore/force some sort of hit penalty against 'always hits' weapons for immersion purposes, especially now that flamers are mostly going up to 12" range.

I would be wary of removing the -1 to hit limit globally though.

For aircraft, my general idea with them is to treat them as being 12" further away from the firing unit than they actually are.

So a 12" Flamer or Pistol cannot shoot them at all.
A 24" Rapid Fire weapon never gets double the shots, barring special rules.
A 30" Rapid Fire weapon would need to close within 3" to get their double shots.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
I would be ok with units with AIRCRAFT keyword or at least Hard to Hit rule giving up to -2 to hit. It would also be fun if it could also ignore/force some sort of hit penalty against 'always hits' weapons for immersion purposes, especially now that flamers are mostly going up to 12" range.

I would be wary of removing the -1 to hit limit globally though.

For aircraft, my general idea with them is to treat them as being 12" further away from the firing unit than they actually are.

So a 12" Flamer or Pistol cannot shoot them at all.
A 24" Rapid Fire weapon never gets double the shots, barring special rules.
A 30" Rapid Fire weapon would need to close within 3" to get their double shots.

I like this idea, should be how it is for real.