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So last year, a group of my friends/fellow gamers at my FLGS all pitched in and got me a helluva gift.

A forge world Blood Angels Leviathan Dreadnought.



In addition, I received every arm option available for this guy along with the model. To say I was floored by this is an understatement.

Life happened, my wife and I had a beautiful little girl not too long after I received this amazing gift and due to complications (7 weeks in the NICU, thankfully our daughter is home and doing very well now at 7 months old!) it has sat on my shelf waiting for me to finally get some free time to paint it up. I've had time to work on smaller projects since then, but I want to devote all my time to getting this beast done up properly once things calm down a little more and we're into a more normal routine. I intend to start working on it within the next couple of months once I finish off one more handful of infantry.

I have REALLY wanted to get it put together and fielded even only after it's been just basecoated, as I LOVE the Leviathan Dread look and the torso mounted assault cannons look amazing on an already gorgeous model. However, I encounter the smallest of issues with this particular model. There are no rules for it it 40k, at least not armed as it is. I could field it as a standard leviathan with torso mounted heavy flamers and just proxy it. I'll likely do this once I get it painted up, I freely admit. But it doesn't make it any less frustrating for me. I am hoping that 9th edition finally brings some rules out for this specific version of the model for 40k.

This isn't just a 30k to 40k specific rules oversight issue obviously, but anyone else run into this kind of thing?

It could be worse. At least I can field it and just call the torso assault cannons heavy flamers for gaming, so it's not ALL bad, but man I do want to run it with those torso mounted assault cannons something fierce.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Congrats! May your night interruptions be swift and may the poop always land in the diaper.

I tend to equip my models in a pretty "vanilla" manner so I usually don't have a problem, but I did build a Leutenant with a Storm Shield only to find out that he couldn't take one.

The other stuff I miss is the dual-twin-Autocannon Dreadnought, and dual HB, HF, MM options that the Land Speeder used to be able to use. I'm sorta guessing the Index options are either not legal anymore, or probably won't be with the new codex. I'm unsure of the status. Either way, I prefer some of the older options that are no longer available.

 Red__Thirst wrote:
...This isn't just a 30k to 40k specific rules oversight issue obviously, but anyone else run into this kind of thing?...

Constantly. Constantly. Lernean Terminators? Nope, Chaos can't have Cataphractii. Ordo Reductor? Nope, the Mechanicum isn't allowed any of their resin minis. Probably 80% of the Deathwatch kitbashes I could do aren't allowed because almost all the weapons are standard Veterans only.

Fluffwise makes sense though(and stops 40k being 30k+1). 40k imperium is lucky if it has even half the gear it had before. Whole 40k is based on tragedy of losing technology as it goes. Most of the gear in 30k shouldn't be in 40k side anymore.

tneva82 wrote:
Fluffwise makes sense though(and stops 40k being 30k+1). 40k imperium is lucky if it has even half the gear it had before. Whole 40k is based on tragedy of losing technology as it goes. Most of the gear in 30k shouldn't be in 40k side anymore.

So why does the Imperium have so much more stuff in 40k than it does in 30k (Primaris, grav-tanks, cyber-horses...) if the game is supposed to be based on the tragedy of losing technology?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Fluffwise makes sense though(and stops 40k being 30k+1). 40k imperium is lucky if it has even half the gear it had before. Whole 40k is based on tragedy of losing technology as it goes. Most of the gear in 30k shouldn't be in 40k side anymore.

So why does the Imperium have so much more stuff in 40k than it does in 30k (Primaris, grav-tanks, cyber-horses...) if the game is supposed to be based on the tragedy of losing technology?

The story-line moved on - Primaris are due to the Cawl / Guilliman renaissance, grav-tanks just became rarer (Custodes only) until Cawl started mass producing them again, and the AdMech always had cyber-horses (as do the DKoK).

beast_gts wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Fluffwise makes sense though(and stops 40k being 30k+1). 40k imperium is lucky if it has even half the gear it had before. Whole 40k is based on tragedy of losing technology as it goes. Most of the gear in 30k shouldn't be in 40k side anymore.

So why does the Imperium have so much more stuff in 40k than it does in 30k (Primaris, grav-tanks, cyber-horses...) if the game is supposed to be based on the tragedy of losing technology?

The story-line moved on - Primaris are due to the Cawl / Guilliman renaissance, grav-tanks just became rarer (Custodes only) until Cawl started mass producing them again, and the AdMech always had cyber-horses (as do the DKoK).

Can't use them in 30k.

All the time. Why did Night Lords throw away their chainglaives? What happened to our Terror Squads and Night Raptors? Neither required any special technology. And why did all the Legions throw away their Cataphractii and Tartaros terminator armour in favor of the inferior indomutus pattern (with the exception of Death Guard and Thousand Sons)?

tneva82 wrote:
Fluffwise makes sense though(and stops 40k being 30k+1). 40k imperium is lucky if it has even half the gear it had before. Whole 40k is based on tragedy of losing technology as it goes. Most of the gear in 30k shouldn't be in 40k side anymore.

What. You are aware that assault cannon, rare and jealously guarded technology in 30K, is common as chips in 40K? Especially seeing it's LOWER technology gun than any of the alternatives? The fact is, it should be by far most common gun on 40K leviathan (because it's by far easiest to repair or replace) and the fact FW failed to give it rules is absurd. Especially seeing the special snowflake 40K leviathan (Culn) is equipped with twin assault cannon because the gun it had before was damaged?

Also, the loss of technology was between 30K and DAoT, Imperium right now is far more advanced than it used to be in 30K due to STC findings. What Imperium lost/shelved was some remaining DAoT specimens, but they couldn't produce them in 30K either, maybe Emperor could but he then caught a long nap so...

beast_gts wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Fluffwise makes sense though(and stops 40k being 30k+1). 40k imperium is lucky if it has even half the gear it had before. Whole 40k is based on tragedy of losing technology as it goes. Most of the gear in 30k shouldn't be in 40k side anymore.

So why does the Imperium have so much more stuff in 40k than it does in 30k (Primaris, grav-tanks, cyber-horses...) if the game is supposed to be based on the tragedy of losing technology?

The story-line moved on - Primaris are due to the Cawl / Guilliman renaissance, grav-tanks just became rarer (Custodes only) until Cawl started mass producing them again, and the AdMech always had cyber-horses (as do the DKoK).

The Imperium has always had newer stuff in 40k than in the days of the Heresy. The Razorback, Storm Bolter, and Assault Cannon are all examples of new stuff, same with the Marcharius, Stormblade, etc.

The thing where chaos has combi bolters and loyalists have storm bolters because storm bolters improved feed mechanisms were invented after the Heresy has been around forever. And there are a good number of various Astartes MkII projects IIRC, the thing is all of them before the Primaris project failed.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Why did Night Lords throw away their chainglaives?

They count as chainswords now. Simple. No one forbids you to use the bits, where is the problem?

What happened to our Terror Squads and Night Raptors?

TS became CSM/Chosen. NR are now Raptors, Warp Talons, winged Posessed. Again, I don't see the problem, SM need to use stuff like Destroyer squads using Assault squad rules even though they are still in use/in the Codex Astartes, and can't use HQs with titles that they still have in fluff like heralds or moritats, so arguably SM have it worse but don't complain.

And why did all the Legions throw away their Cataphractii and Tartaros terminator armour in favor of the inferior indomutus pattern (with the exception of Death Guard and Thousand Sons)?

They didn't, performance just degraded due to lack of parts/repair. Even so, you can replicate the originals using chaos buffs, something that according to rumors won't be possible in new SM book. Again, CSM have it better, but it's the loyalists that don't complain...

 Irbis wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Why did Night Lords throw away their chainglaives?

They count as chainswords now. Simple. No one forbids you to use the bits, where is the problem?

Groovy. You're thunderhammers now count as power mauls, you can still use the bits, what's the problem?

TS became CSM/Chosen. NR are now Raptors, Warp Talons, winged Posessed. Again, I don't see the problem, SM need to use stuff like Destroyer squads using Assault squad rules even though they are still in use/in the Codex Astartes, and can't use HQs with titles that they still have in fluff like heralds or moritats, so arguably SM have it worse but don't complain.

Sounds like you're complaining to me. And those units aren't the same and you know it.

They didn't, performance just degraded due to lack of parts/repair. Even so, you can replicate the originals using chaos buffs, something that according to rumors won't be possible in new SM book. Again, CSM have it better, but it's the loyalists that don't complain...

Then why didn't Death Guard and Thousand Sons Cataphractii and Tartaros suits "degrade"? And you'll still have "relic terminators" according to the leaked Codex: Loyalist Scum contents page. So you can stop COMPLAINING.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Congrats! May your night interruptions be swift and may the poop always land in the diaper.

I tend to equip my models in a pretty "vanilla" manner so I usually don't have a problem, but I did build a Leutenant with a Storm Shield only to find out that he couldn't take one.

The other stuff I miss is the dual-twin-Autocannon Dreadnought, and dual HB, HF, MM options that the Land Speeder used to be able to use. I'm sorta guessing the Index options are either not legal anymore, or probably won't be with the new codex. I'm unsure of the status. Either way, I prefer some of the older options that are no longer available.

Thank you! Yea she sleeps through the night and is an absolute doll.

I've lost the use of one particular model I was very fond of. My Sanguinary Novitiate with a jump pack. I could always field it without the jump pack, however I converted the model to have jump pack belts across his torso along with the vials and other narthecium related gear around his waist area. A subtle conversion I was rather proud of even if the paint job wasn't as impressive as I'd hoped it would be. I'll be trying to figure out another use for him later on. We'll see what we see on that end. Beyond that I've been fairly lucky to be able to convert/re-purpose the few models that needed a tweak to work better in newer editions as needed.

Hopefully some updated rules for the Leviathan with assault cannons in October (or at some point this year) once the marine codex drops.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

tneva82 wrote:
Fluffwise makes sense though(and stops 40k being 30k+1). 40k imperium is lucky if it has even half the gear it had before. Whole 40k is based on tragedy of losing technology as it goes. Most of the gear in 30k shouldn't be in 40k side anymore.

what about the legions then? They still use 30k-era gear in the fluff but on the tabletop we can't even use regular droppods or land speeder. And now loyalists are getting access to volkite but not the legions.

Out of interest, can anyone remember when the BA Leviathan was released relative to the FW SM Index? If it came out afterwards, that'd probably explain the rules not being in the Index (along with the short lead time FW were given to produce them).

If your group is OK with it, Red_Thirst, can't you just pay the appropriate cost to swap out the torso weapons for assault cannons? I'd probably go with the twin assault cannon cost from the Razorback, myself.

One of many, many issues with 30k is these conflicts, exacerbated by FW trying again and again to make marines vs. marines feel distinct in a whole game by releasing fancy expensive sculpts (using resin's advantages) while GW tries to limit their options to standardized kits (playing to plastic strengths). GW as a whole painted themselves into a corner when they started actually describing the HH, because of all sorts of weird inconsistencies. Rather than try to create a coherent 30k/40k universe by integrating ideas well, the two have remained relatively divided with a few exceptions.

If your friends are okay, just play it as is, and if anyone in a wider circle gives you trouble, just play it as the weapons it's supposed to have :/

 Dysartes wrote:
Out of interest, can anyone remember when the BA Leviathan was released relative to the FW SM Index? If it came out afterwards, that'd probably explain the rules not being in the Index (along with the short lead time FW were given to produce them).

If your group is OK with it, Red_Thirst, can't you just pay the appropriate cost to swap out the torso weapons for assault cannons? I'd probably go with the twin assault cannon cost from the Razorback, myself.

the weapons have a pts value so why wouldnt you be able to pay the pts for it?

oh wait....donkey-caves wouldn't let you.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
GW as a whole painted themselves into a corner when they started actually describing the HH, because of all sorts of weird inconsistencies. Rather than try to create a coherent 30k/40k universe by integrating ideas well, the two have remained relatively divided with a few exceptions.

Whenever you see something like that... a wizard psyker did it.

If you played against me, I would welcome it having assault cannons.

If you played me in 30k I would also be happy.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Red__Thirst wrote:
...This isn't just a 30k to 40k specific rules oversight issue obviously, but anyone else run into this kind of thing?...

Constantly. Constantly. Lernean Terminators? Nope, Chaos can't have Cataphractii. Ordo Reductor? Nope, the Mechanicum isn't allowed any of their resin minis. Probably 80% of the Deathwatch kitbashes I could do aren't allowed because almost all the weapons are standard Veterans only.

The different Terminators shouldn't just have different rules because of the armor to be fair. It's so many unit entries for no real reason.

Ironically, 30k has one unit entry for all the terminators and different USRs for the different marks that apply to the uni-

oh wait USRs are evil, better have different entries.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Red__Thirst wrote:
...This isn't just a 30k to 40k specific rules oversight issue obviously, but anyone else run into this kind of thing?...

Constantly. Constantly. Lernean Terminators? Nope, Chaos can't have Cataphractii. Ordo Reductor? Nope, the Mechanicum isn't allowed any of their resin minis. Probably 80% of the Deathwatch kitbashes I could do aren't allowed because almost all the weapons are standard Veterans only.

The different Terminators shouldn't just have different rules because of the armor to be fair. It's so many unit entries for no real reason.

Lets you bypass the Rule of 3

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Red__Thirst wrote:
...This isn't just a 30k to 40k specific rules oversight issue obviously, but anyone else run into this kind of thing?...

Constantly. Constantly. Lernean Terminators? Nope, Chaos can't have Cataphractii. Ordo Reductor? Nope, the Mechanicum isn't allowed any of their resin minis. Probably 80% of the Deathwatch kitbashes I could do aren't allowed because almost all the weapons are standard Veterans only.

The different Terminators shouldn't just have different rules because of the armor to be fair. It's so many unit entries for no real reason.

Lets you bypass the Rule of 3

cuz all those players loading up on all 3 types of terminators really need to be reigned in.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Red__Thirst wrote:
...This isn't just a 30k to 40k specific rules oversight issue obviously, but anyone else run into this kind of thing?...

Constantly. Constantly. Lernean Terminators? Nope, Chaos can't have Cataphractii. Ordo Reductor? Nope, the Mechanicum isn't allowed any of their resin minis. Probably 80% of the Deathwatch kitbashes I could do aren't allowed because almost all the weapons are standard Veterans only.

The different Terminators shouldn't just have different rules because of the armor to be fair. It's so many unit entries for no real reason.

Same issue with all the bolters.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Red__Thirst wrote:
...This isn't just a 30k to 40k specific rules oversight issue obviously, but anyone else run into this kind of thing?...

Constantly. Constantly. Lernean Terminators? Nope, Chaos can't have Cataphractii. Ordo Reductor? Nope, the Mechanicum isn't allowed any of their resin minis. Probably 80% of the Deathwatch kitbashes I could do aren't allowed because almost all the weapons are standard Veterans only.

The different Terminators shouldn't just have different rules because of the armor to be fair. It's so many unit entries for no real reason.

No model/no rules. The different Terminators have different rules because they ship in different boxes with different weapon options, and if you were allowed to use models built out of multiple boxes that'd be the END OF ALL THINGS.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Ironically, 30k has one unit entry for all the terminators and different USRs for the different marks that apply to the uni-

oh wait USRs are evil, better have different entries.

HERESY!!!!!!


but yes, most certainly a better way to handle them...

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Ironically, 30k has one unit entry for all the terminators and different USRs for the different marks that apply to the uni-

oh wait USRs are evil, better have different entries.

HERESY!!!!!!


but yes, most certainly a better way to handle them...

I'm still waiting to see just how these "relic terminators" are handled. Will they have Cataphractii or Tartoros rules? Or an option for either. And will the actual marines who used Heresy pattern terminator armour in the actual Heresy get them?

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Ironically, 30k has one unit entry for all the terminators and different USRs for the different marks that apply to the uni-

oh wait USRs are evil, better have different entries.

HERESY!!!!!!


but yes, most certainly a better way to handle them...

Of course it's Heresy - you're discussing 30k...

 Dysartes wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Ironically, 30k has one unit entry for all the terminators and different USRs for the different marks that apply to the uni-

oh wait USRs are evil, better have different entries.

HERESY!!!!!!


but yes, most certainly a better way to handle them...

Of course it's Heresy - you're discussing 30k...

Of course captain obvious