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 Green is Best! wrote:
OK, switching to artefacts of chaos.If I want to take The Black Mace, it can only be given to a model with a Power Maul. So, I choose the appropriate model that can take a melee weapon, pay the 4 points for the power maul, and then convert it to the Black Mace for free. I can only do this with one artefact. Am I correct here?

Also, if I wanted to make a Night Lords army, I could take the Outrider Detachment option and could go all Raptors with a Jump pack Chaos lord. However, they would not get the Despoilers of the Galaxy trait as they are not troops.

Correct.

There is also a Stratagem in the CSM Dex that lets you take an extra Relic (the general term for Artefacts of Chaos and other special wargear from any Codex) for 1 CP, or two extra Relics for 3 CP.

 Green is Best! wrote:
OK, switching to artefacts of chaos.If I want to take The Black Mace, it can only be given to a model with a Power Maul. So, I choose the appropriate model that can take a melee weapon, pay the 4 points for the power maul, and then convert it to the Black Mace for free. I can only do this with one artefact. Am I correct here?

Also, if I wanted to make a Night Lords army, I could take the Outrider Detachment option and could go all Raptors with a Jump pack Chaos lord. However, they would not get the Despoilers of the Galaxy trait as they are not troops.

1) Correct. Your free relic comes from the pool provided by the appropriate Warlord. You can purchase extra relics via stratagems. You can't take the same relic multiple times, or give a single model more than one relic, but you can have multiple different relics so long as you pay the appropriate costs/use the appropriate stratagems.

2) Correct. They aren't the Troops battlefield role, so they won't get Despoilers of the Galaxy. They can still capture objectives, it's just that even a single enemy Troop model (it's usually only Troops that get this type of rule, there are exceptions) will outrank your Raptors when it comes to trying to capture the objective.

 Green is Best! wrote:
OK, switching to artefacts of chaos.If I want to take The Black Mace, it can only be given to a model with a Power Maul. So, I choose the appropriate model that can take a melee weapon, pay the 4 points for the power maul, and then convert it to the Black Mace for free. I can only do this with one artefact. Am I correct here?

Pretty much. There are stratagems that exist that allow you to take multiple Relics by paying Command points - but I believe the individual Relics must still be unique.

Also, if I wanted to make a Night Lords army, I could take the Outrider Detachment option and could go all Raptors with a Jump pack Chaos lord. However, they would not get the Despoilers of the Galaxy trait as they are not troops.

Correct.


(edit) ...bah humbug!! I literally just opened the forum again 5 minutes ago, why couldn't I see BCB had already replied?!

 Super Ready wrote:
(edit) ...bah humbug!! I literally just opened the forum again 5 minutes ago, why couldn't I see BCB had already replied?!

It's never a bad idea to reply even if someone already has. Multiple data-points can increase the significance of the results. lf multiple people give the same answer, it is more likely (although not always certain) that the answer is correct.

Thanks again for all the help. Looking through the rules again:
1. No access points on a rhino? Does this mean you can no longer shoot out of the hatch?
2. I did not see any restrictions on disembarking after vehicles move. Also, I do not see class of vehicle (i.e. assault). Does this mean I can advance a rhino, disembark 3", normal move, and charge?
3. I only have the CSM codex right now. Is open top still a thing? From the questions on the forum, it appears so.
4. Morale test is taken whenever a unit suffers a casualty, period? I don't see rules for Fearless or anything like that. Again, since I don't have an imperial codex yet, do Space Marines have some way to ignore morale tests?
5. WIth respect to charges:
a. you cannot end up within engagement range of another unit, unless you declared it as a target. Correct?
b. If I pile in later rounds, can you pile in to a unit not currently in combat?
c. What has been people's experience with assaults with the new rules? Do they last forever, or do they tend to end quickly? I don't see rules for sweeping advance, but the morale tests look like you could lose models at a decent pace.
d. I see no restrictions on charging from reserve, it appears that is gone. Is 1st round charge still a no go somewhere?

Thanks again!!!

 Green is Best! wrote:
Thanks again for all the help. Looking through the rules again:
1. No access points on a rhino? Does this mean you can no longer shoot out of the hatch?
2. I did not see any restrictions on disembarking after vehicles move. Also, I do not see class of vehicle (i.e. assault). Does this mean I can advance a rhino, disembark 3", normal move, and charge?
3. I only have the CSM codex right now. Is open top still a thing? From the questions on the forum, it appears so.
4. Morale test is taken whenever a unit suffers a casualty, period? I don't see rules for Fearless or anything like that. Again, since I don't have an imperial codex yet, do Space Marines have some way to ignore morale tests?
5. WIth respect to charges:
a. you cannot end up within engagement range of another unit, unless you declared it as a target. Correct?
b. If I pile in later rounds, can you pile in to a unit not currently in combat?
c. What has been people's experience with assaults with the new rules? Do they last forever, or do they tend to end quickly? I don't see rules for sweeping advance, but the morale tests look like you could lose models at a decent pace.
d. I see no restrictions on charging from reserve, it appears that is gone. Is 1st round charge still a no go somewhere?

Thanks again!!!

1) Correct. No transports have fire points anymore. Chimeras have a Lasgun array special rule, and some transports kept their Open Topped rule (but they are a broken mess RaW, don't even try wrapping your head around it).
2) You can only disembark before the transport makes its move. BRB Page 211, Disembark. Some transports (e.g. Impulsor) have a special rule allowing you to disembark after the transport moves, but usually prevents you charging if you do so.
3) It is, but it's pretty rare. It's also broken to all hell.
4) Morale tests are taken if even a single model is slain. However, due to how the morale rules work, taking a single casualty usually means you can't actually fail the test, and you have a 1/6 chance of auto-passing the morale test now. Space Marines can re-roll morale tests. For example, if a unit has Ld 7, taking a single casualty means that even if you roll a 6, you'll pass the test since 6+1 is 7.
5a) Correct, you can only move into engagement range of units you declared a charge against. More importantly, in 9th you must make it to engagement range to ALL units you declared a charge against otherwise the charge will fail, not just a single unit, which makes longrange multicharges a lot riskier. That being said, you can freely pile in or consolidate into units you didn't declare a charge against, but you can only attack units you charged, and if you do pile in or consolidate into other units, they get to swing at you.
5b) Yes, you can. However, if you made a charge move that turn, you can only attack units you declared a charge against, even if you pile in or consolidate into them.
5c) Melee in 8th and 9th (imo) has been a bit of a mixed bag. With Fall Back being pretty much consequence free, your choppy unit will charge in, kill a few dudes, then they walk away and the rest of their shooting blows your exposed ass away.
5d) You can indeed charge on the first turn, and you can charge when you arrive as reinforcements. To balance this, you can't arrive as reinforcements in the first battle round, and the majority of reinforcement rules require you to be more than 9" from the enemy, which means you need to roll a 9 when charging, which is pretty difficult to do without buffs or re-rolls.

OK. I have a few more:
1. Since characters cannot join units, does their leadership ever effect morale checks? For example, Abaddon is LD10... does that ever confer?
2. For CSM units, what is the upside to declaring yourself to a particular god? From what I can tell, it only gains you access to specific artefacts and icons. Am I missing a page where it does anything else (like Nurgle used to be +1T, etc.).

 Green is Best! wrote:
OK. I have a few more:
1. Since characters cannot join units, does their leadership ever effect morale checks? For example, Abaddon is LD10... does that ever confer?
2. For CSM units, what is the upside to declaring yourself to a particular god? From what I can tell, it only gains you access to specific artefacts and icons. Am I missing a page where it does anything else (like Nurgle used to be +1T, etc.).

1) By default, no, it doesn't. The only thing Character Leadership is used for is for certain special rules that rely on it. Some characters have special rules that allow you to confer their Leadership to other units (e.g. Commissars) but when it comes to Morale, the majority of characters are worthless.
2) Marks of Chaos do nothing on their own anymore. They only act as anchors for other rules to reference.

1. Force weapons appear to be identical to power weapons, except the do D3 damage instead of 1. Correct?
2. Can someone point me to the page for combi-weapons? I am assuming they are the same, but I cannot locate in the brb. Kind of annoyed there is no index.
3. Failed morale checks never force you to fall back, they only cause models to be removed? Does this apply to the vaunted space marines as well?

 Green is Best! wrote:
1. Force weapons appear to be identical to power weapons, except the do D3 damage instead of 1. Correct?
2. Can someone point me to the page for combi-weapons? I am assuming they are the same, but I cannot locate in the brb. Kind of annoyed there is no index.
3. Failed morale checks never force you to fall back, they only cause models to be removed? Does this apply to the vaunted space marines as well?

1) Correct. Gotta get that streamlining in!
2) Combi-weapons are detailed in the appropriate codex. You're in luck though, because for once GW's dumbing down streamlining actually was an improvement. Combi-Weapons are now basically both guns duct-taped together, you can fire either half as many times as you want, and even fire both halves at once with a -1 to hit if you so want.
3) Correct. If you fail a Morale test, you lose a model, (Those Grots are Scary! I, a twelve thousand year old perfectly gene-crafted praetorian of The Emperor at whos side I walked and basked in his golden glory, must now run away with soiled britches!) then have to take an "Attrition test", where you roll a D6 for every model in a unit. For each roll of 1 (or 1 and 2 if the unit is under half starting strength) one model goes poof into the aether, whether it's a Grot, Space Marine, Sentinel or Custodes Terminator. In fairness, Loyalist Space Marines get to re-roll morale so they are less likely to fail in the first place. CSM, no such luck. Apparently the warp predators are less scary than some random ratlings!

It'd be a fantastic idea if there were only some way to show how certain units are made of sterner stuff than others! Like, say, oh I don't know... some kind of leadership statistic?

OK, a few more. I do appreciate the help.

1. For psychic abilities, is there anything preventing the psyker from casting it upon himself? For example, Diabolic Strength could be cast upon the pskyer?

2. Vehicle Armor is gone, it is just toughness. The new chart says 6's ALWAYS wound. So, in theory, land raiders can be taken down by bolter and lasgun fire?

3. Are meltabombs gone or just not in the chaos codex?

4. Does the Greater Possessed Locus of Power stack? If so, is it per Greater Possessed model or unit? I am assuming unit, but just double checking.

5. Is this the correct order to apply wounds:
a. Roll to Hit
b. Roll to Wound
c. Calculate damage (if is variable)

I have 3 attacks. I roll 3 dice, 2 hit. Of those hits, 1 wounds. This is a Hellforged Sword that is D3. So this would be 3 saves to make?

Thanks,

 Green is Best! wrote:
OK, a few more. I do appreciate the help.

1. For psychic abilities, is there anything preventing the psyker from casting it upon himself? For example, Diabolic Strength could be cast upon the pskyer?

2. Vehicle Armor is gone, it is just toughness. The new chart says 6's ALWAYS wound. So, in theory, land raiders can be taken down by bolter and lasgun fire?

3. Are meltabombs gone or just not in the chaos codex?

4. Does the Greater Possessed Locus of Power stack? If so, is it per Greater Possessed model or unit? I am assuming unit, but just double checking.

5. Is this the correct order to apply wounds:
a. Roll to Hit
b. Roll to Wound
c. Calculate damage (if is variable)

I have 3 attacks. I roll 3 dice, 2 hit. Of those hits, 1 wounds. This is a Hellforged Sword that is D3. So this would be 3 saves to make?

Thanks,

1) Psychic powers can affect whatever they say they can effect. Unless the power explicitly prohibits it, and the psyker is a legal target for the power, they can cast powers on themselves.
2) Yes, but needing 6's to wound makes it really, REALLY unlikely to even cause a single wound. You need 72 Lasgun shots to have a 50% chance of causing even a single point of damage on a Land Raider.
3) Meltabombs are Grenade weapons now (with a 4" range, so in other words, totally useless) and yeah, CSM lost their Meltabombs. They left them at Space Five Guys Burgers and Fries and the Blood Ravens stole them all.
4) No, auras don't stack. And this aura especially does not stack. It applies if you are within range of "any" models with the aura, not "each". It doesn't matter if there is a single Greater Possessed of Seventy Two Trillion, models in range only get +1 to their strength.
5) No. Each attack (normally) can only inflict a single wound. You make a save against each wound caused. If the save fails, it then inflicts damage, which causes wounds to be lost.

1) Roll to hit

2) Roll to wound

3) Take one wound, assign it to a model

4) Roll to save

5) If 4) failed, roll to see how much damage is inflicted, then go to 6. If 4) passed, go to 3) if wounds remain to be assigned

6) Roll for Ignore wound effects

7) Remove the model if slain, then go back to 3 until all wounds have been assigned and dealt with

This means, for example, shooting at a unit of 6 Imperial Guardsmen, something like an Assault Cannon (Heavy 6, Damage 1) can kill up to 6 models, but a Lascannon (Heavy 1, Damage D6) can only kill 1 model, since the extra damage is wasted on the 1 wound Imperial Guardsmen even if you rolled a 6 for the damage.

OK. Instant death is no longer a thing.Is that correct?

Hypothetical situation: I have an Emperor's Children detachment with a Greater Possessed (GP) associating(is that the term?) with a squad of possessed and they are charged.

1st case: This is the only assault taking place

Based on the EC trait always fight first, as I was charged, I would nominate a unit to fight first. Because they have the EC trait, they swing first.

2nd case: There are 2 duplicate situations of the above taking place.

Based on the EC trait, I pick one of my two units to swing. My opponents swings with one of his. I swing with my second. My opponent swings with his second.

Are those correct?

Next, given that a character such as a Greater Possessed above is not attached to any unit, how does that interact with the above mechanism? Would the GP be considered part of that fight, or would I pick either the GP or the possessed squad to swing, then my opponent, then the other part of my army?

Lastly, does the GP's aura affect the GP as well? Or would I need a second GP unit to buff him?

There are a few rules that instantly kill a model. EC units dont fight first when they get charged. Players alternate choosing units to fight with, starting with the player whose turn it is. So, a unit who has charged fights first, then an EC unit fights, then another unit who has charged, EC unit, etc., until all units that have charged have fought. Then all EC units fight before all other remaining units. A GP is just another EC unit. You would pick him after your opponent has chosen a unit to fight with.

 p5freak wrote:
There are a few rules that instantly kill a model. EC units dont fight first when they get charged. Players alternate choosing units to fight with, starting with the player whose turn it is. So, a unit who has charged fights first, then an EC unit fights, then another unit who has charged, EC unit, etc., until all units that have charged have fought. Then all EC units fight before all other remaining units. A GP is just another EC unit. You would pick him after your opponent has chosen a unit to fight with.

So to clarify, if a squad of Possessed and a GP close by are charged, they are considered 2 separate units with respect to being selected?

And, if I understand the charge rules correctly, they would need to nominate BOTH as targets of the charge? So, if they declared the Possessed Squad as the target, they could ONLY swing at the Possessed and not the GP. If they declared BOTH as targets of the charge, they have to get into engagement range of BOTH the possessed squad and the GP or the charge fails?

 Green is Best! wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
There are a few rules that instantly kill a model. EC units dont fight first when they get charged. Players alternate choosing units to fight with, starting with the player whose turn it is. So, a unit who has charged fights first, then an EC unit fights, then another unit who has charged, EC unit, etc., until all units that have charged have fought. Then all EC units fight before all other remaining units. A GP is just another EC unit. You would pick him after your opponent has chosen a unit to fight with.

So to clarify, if a squad of Possessed and a GP close by are charged, they are considered 2 separate units with respect to being selected?

Indeed.

 Green is Best! wrote:
OK. Instant death is no longer a thing.Is that correct?

Correct. Now appropriate weapons have a Damage greater than 1, allowing them to kill models with more than 1 wound faster.

Hypothetical situation: I have an Emperor's Children detachment with a Greater Possessed (GP) associating(is that the term?) with a squad of possessed and they are charged.

1st case: This is the only assault taking place

Based on the EC trait always fight first, as I was charged, I would nominate a unit to fight first. Because they have the EC trait, they swing first.

2nd case: There are 2 duplicate situations of the above taking place.

Based on the EC trait, I pick one of my two units to swing. My opponents swings with one of his. I swing with my second. My opponent swings with his second.

Are those correct?

Next, given that a character such as a Greater Possessed above is not attached to any unit, how does that interact with the above mechanism? Would the GP be considered part of that fight, or would I pick either the GP or the possessed squad to swing, then my opponent, then the other part of my army?

Lastly, does the GP's aura affect the GP as well? Or would I need a second GP unit to buff him?

This is a little messy because there are a number of rules in effect in these cases. To simplify the answers:

1. The Greater Possessed is its own unit. It is always its own unit. Don't ever think of it as part of another unit. That will help you with all the rules. Units benefiting from another units Aura powers are generally referred to as being "in unit X's aura", so "a squad of Possessed in the aura of a Greater Possessed".
2. All units that Always Fight First, including units that charged, must be selected to fight before any units that do not have this trait nor charged.
3. There are three "sections" of the fight phase (you need to dig into the Rare Rules Interaction section to parse this out:
* Fight First: Units that Fight First or that charged. The player who's turn it is selects the first unit to fight, and then it alternates between the players for units that Fight First
* Normal Fights: Units that do not Fight First nor Fight Last fight, starting with the player who's turn it is not and alternating while there are appropriate units to select
* Fight Last: Units that Fight Last alternate fighting between players, starting with the player who's turn it is
Note: Should a unit ever be under effect to both Fight First and Fight Last, it fights as normal.

 Green is Best! wrote:

And, if I understand the charge rules correctly, they would need to nominate BOTH as targets of the charge? So, if they declared the Possessed Squad as the target, they could ONLY swing at the Possessed and not the GP. If they declared BOTH as targets of the charge, they have to get into engagement range of BOTH the possessed squad and the GP or the charge fails?

Yes.

OK. Not being attached to other units is having effects I didn't think about. So, in this case, if it was my turn, I would have to declare the possessed squad is charging AND the GP is charging, rolling separate for both.

Timing question... just to confirm....
I declare the possessed squad is charging. I declare its target(s). I roll for distance. I must get in engagement rage of all unit(s) or the charge fails. I then pick my next unit, in this case the GP, and repeat. Is this correct?

So, if the possessed squad fails its charge, I can then choose to NOT charge with the GP as he would be all by his lonesome charging.

A lot of subtle effects that I need to get my head around, but I kind of like where the new rules went.

Also, given the new rules with vehicles, has Rhino Rush returned?

 Green is Best! wrote:
OK. Not being attached to other units is having effects I didn't think about. So, in this case, if it was my turn, I would have to declare the possessed squad is charging AND the GP is charging, rolling separate for both.
Timing question... just to confirm....
I declare the possessed squad is charging. I declare its target(s). I roll for distance. I must get in engagement rage of all unit(s) or the charge fails. I then pick my next unit, in this case the GP, and repeat. Is this correct?
So, if the possessed squad fails its charge, I can then choose to NOT charge with the GP as he would be all by his lonesome charging.

Yep, that's all correct.

Also, given the new rules with vehicles, has Rhino Rush returned?

Nope, it's still very much dead! In fact a lot of vehicles beyond Rhinos that had "Assault Vehicle" or something, rules explicitly allowing units to charge from a disembark, have now lost those rules too and I'm not aware of any that kept the ability. I suggest having a good close look at transports and maybe playing out a couple of sample turns with a couple of mock units, just to get familiar with them.

 Super Ready wrote:

Nope, it's still very much dead! In fact a lot of vehicles beyond Rhinos that had "Assault Vehicle" or something, rules explicitly allowing units to charge from a disembark, have now lost those rules too and I'm not aware of any that kept the ability. I suggest having a good close look at transports and maybe playing out a couple of sample turns with a couple of mock units, just to get familiar with them.

What am I missing? in 5th and 6th you could only charge out of assault vehicles. Correct me if I am wrong, but you can disembark from a stationary vehicle (3" from any point on the hull?), make a normal move, and then charge?

I have yet to play and actually try out, but vehicles appear to be more robust than before. There is no stunned or shaken to worry about. You don't have to get out and wait for your next turn to assault. So, it seems like this edition is more assault friendly than 5th or 6th was.

But, this would not be the first time I came up with something in theory from the codex only to find it fail MISERABLY on the table top.

Thanks,

That's all correct - but it misses part of what was so big about Rhino Rush and Assault Vehicles. You can't move the vehicle and disembark, then charge.
I think it's fair to say that a transport charge right now is dangerous enough to be a concern, but not from so far away that you don't normally get at least one chance to pop the transport first, which was the problem - and part of the reason Rhino Rush was so popular.

I missed out on rhino rush as I believe that was 4th edition and before my time. Maybe I used the wrong term.

But it does seem a lot easier to get your boys into combat now than before. I am looking forward to playing again. Now, I have to go through my models and figure out what I can field.

An issue in 8th, was that transports were *very* expensive compared to 7th and earlier. To the point it was generally better to just take another unit... or two... and suffer casualties on the way. Non-open-topped vehicles also lost any fire ports they had, which meant lost shooting opportunities and 8th was all about alpha strike.

I haven’t run numbers on that yet for 9th, but with the action all in the “centre” now, the mobility boost still doesn’t seem to be worth the points and lost attack opportunities, at first glance.

 greatbigtree wrote:
An issue in 8th, was that transports were *very* expensive compared to 7th and earlier. To the point it was generally better to just take another unit... or two... and suffer casualties on the way. Non-open-topped vehicles also lost any fire ports they had, which meant lost shooting opportunities and 8th was all about alpha strike.

I haven’t run numbers on that yet for 9th, but with the action all in the “centre” now, the mobility boost still doesn’t seem to be worth the points and lost attack opportunities, at first glance.

I did notice rhinos were double the points from before. What you're saying makes sense. THere is a world of difference between Theoryhammer and actual tabletop Warhammer.

Looking through the Flyer and Aircraft portion...

I did not see any penalties for shooting at flyers. Is that gone?
I do not see anything restricting charging aircraft. Did I miss that? That seems odd.

Thanks,

 Green is Best! wrote:

 greatbigtree wrote:
An issue in 8th, was that transports were *very* expensive compared to 7th and earlier. To the point it was generally better to just take another unit... or two... and suffer casualties on the way. Non-open-topped vehicles also lost any fire ports they had, which meant lost shooting opportunities and 8th was all about alpha strike.

I haven’t run numbers on that yet for 9th, but with the action all in the “centre” now, the mobility boost still doesn’t seem to be worth the points and lost attack opportunities, at first glance.

I did notice rhinos were double the points from before. What you're saying makes sense. THere is a world of difference between Theoryhammer and actual tabletop Warhammer.

Looking through the Flyer and Aircraft portion...

I did not see any penalties for shooting at flyers. Is that gone?
I do not see anything restricting charging aircraft. Did I miss that? That seems odd.

Thanks,

Those are now covered by rules on the datasheet. Aircraft generally have a "Hard to Hit" rule, which gives a -1 to hit penalty. Aircraft generally also have an "Airborne" rule which prevents non-FLY models from charging them and prevents the Aircraft from charging whatsoever. Note that the Heldrake doesn't have these rules. Units with the Flyer Battlefield Role aren't always AIRCRAFT. Some AIRCRAFT can enter a "Hover Mode", such as the Valkyrie.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Those are now covered by rules on the datasheet. Aircraft generally have a "Hard to Hit" rule, which gives a -1 to hit penalty. Aircraft generally also have an "Airborne" rule which prevents non-FLY models from charging them and prevents the Aircraft from charging whatsoever. Note that the Heldrake doesn't have these rules. Units with the Flyer Battlefield Role aren't always AIRCRAFT. Some AIRCRAFT can enter a "Hover Mode", such as the Valkyrie.

Thanks. It seemed odd that you could charge aircraft. Only having the CSM codex and no AIRCRAFT in it had me wondering.

I appreciate the help.

Another question, when it comes to assault. When making your to hit rolls, you simply go off the WS d+ number? There is no modifier to it like it editions past?

Some units might impose a modifier, but normally yes. WS is functionally identical to BS.

Tau have photon grenades that impose a -1 to hit penalty on the targeted unit until the Tau player’s next turn, for example, and that modified to-hit in both shooting and cc.

In 8th, Power Fists attacked at -1 to hit, but I haven’t checked to see if that carried into 9th edition.

OK. Picked up the Thousand Sons and Demons codexes today. What does having the cavalry keyword do?

Is it just for classifying what effects happen?
Any modifiers I should be aware of?
If so, can you point me to the correct page?

Thanks