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 Niiai wrote:
Are you telling me you have troops standing around messing up objectives for several turns? They just die the turn after they are relevant.

Turn 4 and 5 is plenty of time to play catch up.

Objective secured is important for the easiest way to get a lead on your opponent - by denying him VP from primaries. For example in my last game a unit of pox walkers charged a squad of deathwing knights standing on an objective supported by an ancient. This was a sure death sentence for them, but those two pox walkers who were within 3" of the objective in my command phase scored me 5 VP and lost my opponent 5VP, in total a 10 VP swing. The game ended 75:65, so they were definitely part of the reason why I won.

Yes in that senario it worked out fine.

How did they survive until your commandphase? Usualy they just die, I suppose that poxwalkers are durable for their points.

In my games in 9th (and a lot of games of 8th) units usualy do not survive. Objective secure can disrupt the opponent to prevent them getting points. But by the time my turn comes again they are dead. It might be that I am coloured by my Ork metagame, but things die.

If you happen to have a codex that has good troops go ahead. But there is no requierment for troops, particularly for the armies that have bad troops.

If there is a trend like that and it goes to the exstreme we could end up with a meta where everybody brings vehicles or high thoughness models rendering small arms fire obsolete. (Of course once the meta catches up and all bring heavy weapons blibs of cheap units will be good again.) But if you can deny 50% of your opponents weapons that sounds like a winn for me. A SM with only dreadnoughts and tanks for instance.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Scoring denial is important in 9th. I can charge a squad of Guardsmen into a squad of Kill-o-matic dudes, and if the KoM dudes don’t have obsec and I do?

Then they die, because you aren't surviving two rounds of melee with KilloMatic dudes with 10 guardsmen.

AKA "The problem with light infantry in 9th."

5 intercessors in 2 rounds of combat kill....oh, look at that, 10 guardsmen on average.

Oh, look at that, not even including morale tests.

Oh, look at that, that's the same melee stats or better for EVERY PRIMARIS UNIT.

To be fair, the average is by no means a guarantee. Those 10 Guardsmen at about 65 points after gear have a very solid chance to deny 5 VP to my opponent, possibly 10, and have a, let’s estimate, 33% chance to beat the averages and actually score the objective.

I’m saying that if you can pull a 10-15 point swing *once per game* with ObSec, you probably are going to win. Not every single ObSec unit will do that, but if even 1 unit pulls it off there’s a push that will probably put you over the top.

It is a *Tactical* option that can be selected in the *Strategic* list building. You might not use it every game, but you *cant* use that Tactic if you don’t have it.

 Niiai wrote:
Yes in that senario it worked out fine.

How did they survive until your commandphase? Usualy they just die, I suppose that poxwalkers are durable for their points.

Well, the survived due to the death wing terminators simply not hitting often enough to kill 20 in two rounds of combat and I removed the two within objective range last.
Even if they had killed all of them two rounds, he would have lost 5VP. It's also worth noting that they tore down a banner raised on that objective through that charge.

In my games in 9th (and a lot of games of 8th) units usualy do not survive. Objective secure can disrupt the opponent to prevent them getting points. But by the time my turn comes again they are dead. It might be that I am coloured by my Ork metagame, but things die.

Sure, they do, but they die after your opponent's command phase. Objective secured matter because you need to gun down rather harmless units to the last member, because otherwise the single intercessor sergeant will heroically defend his objective from three daemon engines trying to run him over.

If there is a trend like that and it goes to the exstreme we could end up with a meta where everybody brings vehicles or high thoughness models rendering small arms fire obsolete. (Of course once the meta catches up and all bring heavy weapons blibs of cheap units will be good again.) But if you can deny 50% of your opponents weapons that sounds like a winn for me. A SM with only dreadnoughts and tanks for instance.

There is no way for a vehicle list to defend itself against troops charging their objectives, and unlike super-killy deathwing terminators with a flail and a banner to buff them, they won't be killing 20 poxwalkers any time soon. Troops aren't brought for their guns, but for their ability to score and deny VP.

 Jidmah wrote:

Sure, they do, but they die after your opponent's command phase. Objective secured matter because you need to gun down rather harmless units to the last member, because otherwise the single intercessor sergeant will heroically defend his objective from three daemon engines trying to run him over.

Emphasis mine on the critical point. 9th scoring rules make this a powerful tactical option. Yes, this is generally a suicide play for the unit in question. Yes, it's not going to hold the point long term.

They dont have to. Shifting the objective tally by one (or more) for one or two turns is a massive points shift the way 9th scores, and if done at the right time it will win you games.

Let's not forget there's actually only 4 turns of scoring objectives, thus you get 4 chances to score yourself and 4 chances to deny opponent scoring. And you don't necessarily have to charge if your troops are mobile enough to get within 3".
Even with weak Eldar troops i feel a need for obsec.

Yeah, since you cant score primaries on T1 and it takes 3 turns to max it out ideally, denying it even once can potentially deny max primary points since a T5 max primary score is unlikely for any army that isnt sweeping anyway.
Troops are mega important, just not really that deadly.

There is very little reason to take bad troops this eddition. Good troops - go ahead and take them and enjoy your bonus CP. Bad troops? Skip them. Thake CP tax and roll over them with heavies.

 Blackie wrote:
Troops aren't needed at all. No troops at all just means less CPs and no obj sec (with some exceptions, see Deathskullz infantry models, all obj sec anyway).

Orks lists could do very well even without a single grot or boy. Of course we're talking about playing 9th with 8th edition codexes, if mid strength and high strenght weapons are going to become too powerful against vehicles/monsters that scenario could change dramatically.

9th edition is about scoring points by achieving primaries and secondaries, not only about killyness. Fielding the most powerful units in the codex isn't the way to go, that's why many armies field troops even if they aren't great.

Thanks


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Niiai wrote:
I am primeraly thinking of 2000 point games. So far, most unitsb of either side of the map dies in my experience. Objective secure is less important then.

You can make quite a good army with 2 HQ, 6 of one slot of Heavy Suport, Fast Attack and Elite, 2 of the other two and or plaines.

Troops used to be something you where requiered to take, at least in 5th and 6th. In 8th you took them to fill out batalions. In 9th I see no such need. Unless of course the troops are good.

Thanks, brand new here. Experimenting for now,