Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
If you mean "do you really need to load up on obsec?". I feel the answer is no. Not for all armies anyway although for some their obsec is very good so why not.
What I'm saying is, if your obsec units aren't great, don't feel compelled to invest past the minimum.
Troops aren't needed at all. No troops at all just means less CPs and no obj sec (with some exceptions, see Deathskullz infantry models, all obj sec anyway).
Orks lists could do very well even without a single grot or boy. Of course we're talking about playing 9th with 8th edition codexes, if mid strength and high strenght weapons are going to become too powerful against vehicles/monsters that scenario could change dramatically.
9th edition is about scoring points by achieving primaries and secondaries, not only about killyness. Fielding the most powerful units in the codex isn't the way to go, that's why many armies field troops even if they aren't great.
I am primeraly thinking of 2000 point games. So far, most unitsb of either side of the map dies in my experience. Objective secure is less important then.
You can make quite a good army with 2 HQ, 6 of one slot of Heavy Suport, Fast Attack and Elite, 2 of the other two and or plaines.
Troops used to be something you where requiered to take, at least in 5th and 6th. In 8th you took them to fill out batalions. In 9th I see no such need. Unless of course the troops are good.
The answer to the original post is that it is army and list dependent.
You can build lists that work well without troops, particularly if you have a way to grant other units objective secured. The other factors involve troop durability and troop damage output. Some armies have excellent troop choices (marines). While armies like the orks pay too many points for their troops.
Eldar factions look like they might struggle in 9th with very fragile Troop units. Technically they have ObjSec but in practice they are so brittle that they die to a stiff breeze.
I suspect Eldar will run Patrol + Spearhead since most of their hitting power is in their Heavy units. There will be a CP tax of course but it is probably better than seeing scoring units mown down all the time.
I stand between the darkness and the light. Between the candle and the star.
GSC troops are the only thing that works in the army.
Harlequin troupes are like 1/4 of the army and quite good.
Drukhari and Eldar troops are utter trash and youc an just skip them.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Drukhari and Eldar troops are utter trash and youc an just skip them.
Wracks aren't bad at all. And definitely they aren't trash if ork boyz are perfectly functional. I'd rate Wracks above boyz anytime.
Orks can perfectly function without a single troop unit, or just the single min squad to save CPs.
Wracks are good in specifically DT/MM and specifically into a Primaris MEQ meta, but I would never rate one against an ork boy in a vacuum.
All you get over an ork boy is basically, they pay for a built-in Painboy+KFF combo but cost proportionately more for that, and don't get a choppa or the 20+ attacks bonus.
in DT/MM the wrack squad itself is almost an afterthought to the venom they're riding in. As someone who plays both, I'd almost always take boyz over wracks, especially in large numbers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/08 13:29:01
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Drukhari and Eldar troops are utter trash and youc an just skip them.
Wracks aren't bad at all. And definitely they aren't trash if ork boyz are perfectly functional. I'd rate Wracks above boyz anytime.
Orks can perfectly function without a single troop unit, or just the single min squad to save CPs.
Wracks are good in specifically DT/MM and specifically into a Primaris MEQ meta, but I would never rate one against an ork boy in a vacuum.
All you get over an ork boy is basically, they pay for a built-in Painboy+KFF combo but cost proportionately more for that, and don't get a choppa or the 20+ attacks bonus.
in DT/MM the wrack squad itself is almost an afterthought to the venom they're riding in. As someone who plays both, I'd almost always take boyz over wracks, especially in large numbers.
Probably preference of gaming style then. I never consider 20+ man squads of boyz in 9th, only 10 in trukks or 18-19 in BW (depending on how many HQs are with them). IMHO boyz are close to terrible unless bringing 3x30 + Ghaz + other characters, which I don't like thematically, but with their transports they could be ok. Basically I like BWs and trukks, boyz are their upgrades
Wracks with PoF should be pretty good in holding objectives. Just 60 points for the min squad or 120 for the 10 man one, and unlike boyz they are ok even in min footslogging squads. Considering that they have 4++, 6+++ and possibly T5 they look quite solid for their role. They don't need to kill anything, just soak enough firepower to justify their cost and they're quite good for that.
technically no you dont need troops at all. If your army has vehicle HQs you can literally run an infantryless list.
Is it a wise idea? Hell. No.
Obsec is important and theres a lot of objectives that basically force you to just let a unit be "useless" while they sit on backfield objectives or in a table quadrant or do actions (on actions, only infantry can do them at all and most of them cant be characters)
I dont think 100% troopless lists will ever be viable for those reasons. People will probably still do it for the lulz but baring some luck i dont see them winning.
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys
True, but if you play 500p in matched play you cant take an other detachment except patrol detachment!
Where does it say that!?
Its on page 280 of the MRB in the Eternal War Mission pack. You can only take a Patrol detachment or a Super-heavy Detachment if you are Imperial Knights or Chaos Knights.
All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand
My take is that you could technically get by with a troop-less list. But to do well with it, you're going to have to do a HELL of a lot better than someone bringing a list with anything more than minimum Troops, who's just phoning it in.
Remember that only a single troop model needs to be near that objective for you to lose it, regardless of your numbers. This leaves you with a few options in theory, but in practice they're not exactly a guaranteed win:
1. Surrounding all the objectives with enough models to stop even chargers from getting within 3". ...I don't know of a unit that's cheap enough to run in mobs that big 4 times over, survivable enough to not get blitzed off the point, AND fast enough to grab the middle and backfield objectives quickly enough to stop your opponent getting a free turn or two in.
2. Alpha-striking your opponent before they can get those Troops close to the objectives. If you can effectively do this on a regular basis, you're either running a glass cannon list like Harlies that can be quite vulnerable to counter-attack if played wrong - or you need way more terrain on your table.
3. Wiping the opponent completely in order to gain all the late-game VPs and hopefully overtake their early gains. ...yeah, umm... good luck with that. Even if you can table someone, chances are you won't make up the points difference in time now that we're down to 5 turns.
"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch
I'm actually struggling with this right now. I'm running 30 Skitarii Vanguard in my 2000pt lists, and I've been winning most of my games, but I haven't felt like the Vanguard have been pulling their weight. The fact that they are ObSec hasn't been terribly relevant; just having a lot of bodies on the objective has actually made the difference. At best ObSec prevents the enemy from scoring the objective at the start of their turn. Usually my assault units gain control of the objective by killing all the occupants by the start of my turn, rendering ObSec moot.
Goonhammer had a good article arguing that ObSec as a role isn't important anymore. It's an incidental benefit for units that are already good at holding objectives, but ObSec doesn't make a unit useful by itself.
I think having a few ObSec units gives you the option to mess with the enemy's control, or fortify your own position. However, good objective holders will be durable, point efficient in close combat, and have a lot of bodies, regardless of ObSec.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/08 22:29:24
Scoring denial is important in 9th. I can charge a squad of Guardsmen into a squad of Kill-o-matic dudes, and if the KoM dudes don’t have obsec and I do?
If I take them from “more objectives” to equal, that’s a 5 pt swing. Take them from 2 to 1, or 1 to 0 and that’s another 5 pt swing.
I would absolutely charge 5 Fire Warriors into a unit that’s unlikely to kill them in one round, to deny scoring.
ObSec is good in a sacrificial pawn manner, but also good for genuinely tough models that will take a turn or two of assault to clear off. Being able to sit and hold for a couple of turns is powerful with the progressive scoring system.
True, but if you play 500p in matched play you cant take an other detachment except patrol detachment!
Where does it say that!?
Its on page 280 of the MRB in the Eternal War Mission pack. You can only take a Patrol detachment or a Super-heavy Detachment if you are Imperial Knights or Chaos Knights.
Oh!
Should specify, because not everyone uses that mission pack.
True, but if you play 500p in matched play you cant take an other detachment except patrol detachment!
Where does it say that!?
Its on page 280 of the MRB in the Eternal War Mission pack. You can only take a Patrol detachment or a Super-heavy Detachment if you are Imperial Knights or Chaos Knights.
Oh!
Should specify, because not everyone uses that mission pack.
The posters upthread were specifically referring to Matched Play, and the only Matched Play mission pack with Combat Patrol is the Eternal War Mission Pack in the Main Rule Book (Combat Patrol is not in the CA20 Grand Tournament Pack.) Open War? Do what you want of course!
My basic assumption for Matched Play is that both players start from a position of using the book Matched Play Eternal War mission pack with its constraints/restraints.
All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand
It might be that I am obly fighting very agrrssive orks. But by end of turn 3 there are very few models left on one side of the battlefield. Objective secure does not come into it when you either have no models to cap objectives or the opponent has so few mofels to deny yout objectives.
Are you telling me you have troops standing around messing up objectives for several turns? They just die the turn after they are relevant.
Niiai wrote: It might be that I am obly fighting very agrrssive orks. But by end of turn 3 there are very few models left on one side of the battlefield. Objective secure does not come into it when you either have no models to cap objectives or the opponent has so few mofels to deny yout objectives.
Are you telling me you have troops standing around messing up objectives for several turns? They just die the turn after they are relevant.
Turn 4 and 5 is plenty of time to play catch up.
Exactly, charging with footslogging guardsmen or fire warriors is all theoryhammer, not gonna happen in real games unless one time exceptions. Unless going really heavy on troops, which handicaps you most of the times, or playing one-sided games, troops tipycally die in the first 2-3 turns.
Obj sec in my experience mostly matters when you keep a non troop unit in your backfield objective and the opponent denies it with a fast or deepstriking unit. I use solo koptas for that role, or trukks that have delivered their cargo; they'd be useful only for Linebreaker/Engage if all the objectives hold by the opponent were taken by troops.
Obsec is about as useful as it was in 8th. Only now buying troops costs you CP. That's where I was going with my earlier post. Obsec is not good enough to make me invest beyond what I must take to unlock the other choices.
That said if I can get obsec on something useful by either being durable (top priority) or killy (second priority) or even troops (rank this third) then obsec becomes more desirable.
Unfortunately armies without primaris or plague marines or obsec daemon princes or biker lords may not have access this sort of troops. In that case troops are a liability. Mostly backfield campers and tax.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/09 13:39:00
I always defaulted to the battalion setup with my Orks, and ran 3 units of troops and 2 HQ's, then lamented the lack of points I had left (after getting the troops some bits to make them viable). Recently I've gone down the lines of Vanguard, Spearhead and Outrider detachments. My armies tend toward a theme of heavy support or fast attack, and losing 3CP for the ability to put all my points into the units I prefer playing with is well worth it.
I won my last 2 games, and between the 2 games I had 1 unit of troops, who died instantly on turn 1. First one was all bikes, buggies, stormboys and deffkoptas, and the second game was meganobs and mad dok grotsnik.
I found the games where I didn't have to work out how my list would work around the compulsory 3 troops were a lot more enjoyable than the games I'd been having before. Getting 9CP at 1500pts with an army of bikers was much more fun than getting 12CP with a couple of units of bikes and 3 units of trukkers.
It all depends on your taktiks - if you want to bully your way onto objectives, then you need troops to use objective secured to overrule your opponents. If you want to dominate on secondary objectives and focus on board control, you can get away without them.
12,300 points of Orks
9th W/D/L with Orks, 4/0/2
I am Thoruk, the Barbarian, Slayer of Ducks, and This is my blog!
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang. 
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys 
12PL 
"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch 