Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So the loyalist scum get their assault, tactical and all that nancy stuff.

How about Chaos get some based on the Gods...

Tied to your Warlord's mark, marked units (from Gods and Legions) get the bonus depending on the turn. Stratagem to jump forward a turn but otherwise must stay in order given. Undivided Lords get one trait from each god but it only applies to units with that mark & the Warlord.

Khorne
Turn 1 - Blinding Blood Lust - All khorne units have a 6+ feel no pain and can roll 2D6 for advance rolls and pick the highest (models that already have this ability get no additional benefit)
Turn 2 - Impatient Rage - May switch one charge roll for a 6, may charge after advancing.
Turn 3 - Ever Flowing Blood - Units may heroically intervene 3". Characters may heroically intervene up to 6"
Turn 4 - Murder the Champions - all close combat weapons are +1 D against non-vehicle units
Turn 5 - Every Last Drop - all units can re-roll failed hit and wound rolls of 1 in combat but rolls of 1 (after the re-roll) hit own unit.

Tzeentch
Turn 1 - Flames of Change - all shooting attacks from heavy weapons have an additional -1 AP. Blast weapons always get a minimum of 4 shots per D6.
Turn 2 - Tantalising Premonitions - Gain 1 miracle dice for each psyker in the army up to a maximum of 3.
Turn 3 - Malicious Evolution - Units may re-roll failed saves but any rolls of 1 they suffer double damage
Turn 4 - Just as Planned - One extra unit type (of your choice, determined at the start of the battle round) gets objective secured
Turn 5 - Whispers from the Lord of Fate - At the start of your turn, roll a D6 for each model with the key word 'character' on the board. On a roll of 1, you lose a VP, on a roll of 4+ you gain a VP. You do not need to use these rolls, but if you do, you need to do them for all characters. These rolls cannot be re-rolled.

Nurgle
Turn 1 - Fog of Decay - units count as being in light cover even if not in cover. If in any form of other cover, count as being obscured.
Turn 2 - Blighted Volleys - rapid fire & assault weapons get an additional -1 AP and 1 damage on wound rolls of 6's
Turn 3 - Immovable Death - units count as double their volume when determining objective secure and get 6+ feel no pain when within 3" of objective
Turn 4 - Deathly Visions - all enemy models within 6" of a unit with the mark of nurgle suffer -1 to their LD. This effect is cumulative to a maximum of -3.
Turn 5 - Entropic Exposure - enemy units in engagement range of friendly units suffer a mortal wound on D6 4+. Suffer D3 mortal wounds on roll of 6.


Slannesh
Turn 1 - Rapturous Sounds - Noise & heavy weapons get an extra 3" of range and an additional -1 AP
Turn 2 - Salacious Speeds - Units may advance and charge
Turn 3 - Masochistic Encore- Any model that dies gets a roll. On a 6+ the model survives with 1 wound.
Turn 4 - Blissful Execution - Get Death to the False Emperor against all armies. Get it on 5's against Imperium.
Turn 5 - Urgent Climax - All models get +1 attack if they charge, are charged or heroically intervene in this battle round. Additionally, they gain 1" to their move, advance & charge rolls.

Undivided
Turn 1 - Tantalising Premonitions (dice may be used on any unit regardless of mark)
Turn 2 - Impatient Rage
Turn 3 - Immovable Death
Turn 4 - Masochistic Encore
Turn 5 - May choose between Urgent Climax, Just as Planned, Murder the Champions or Entropic Exposure.

Edited Khorne 5 to clarify meaning.

They're all nice and flavourful, some too powerful (looking at Khorne no2) and some not so much.

The problem is there is just too much there, and it doesn't mess together or flow in a coherent rules way. Trying to explain that to an opponent would give me a headache, let alone them.

It needs to be simpler, marines get an additional AP on a weapon type and then a generic bonus per chapter. I'd go for a small round based generic bonus and then a better bonus for particular gods in various phases. Likely Tzeentch - Khorne - Slaanesh - Nurgle - Undivided.

Whispers from the Lord of Fate is worded badly, it ought to be " At the start of your turn, you may roll a D6 for every..." and remove the "You do not need to use these rolls, but if you do, you need to do them for all characters." part. All keywords should be in caps. So KHORNE, CHARACTER, etc. For Flames of Change I think it would be cool if it was "Treat units with 9+ models as including 11+ models for the purpose of Blast weapons fired by TZEENTCH models." instead of "Blast weapons always get a minimum of 4 shots per D6." Entropic Exposure could just be D6-3 MW, on 4 you take 1 MW, 5 2MW, 6 3MW.

Having 5 different ones with different effects is too much IMO, it gives me flashbacks to 7th ed Daemons and their tables referring to different tables. You either need one effect that changes over the turns like SM get or at most three unique effects like GK and then it shouldn't be tied to turns, but start of game choose one, change whenever with a Stratagem. I am not convinced why these sorts of abilities are good ideas anymore? In 8th it was too valuable to soup and SM needed a reason not to, that's not the case in 9th, a CP penalty for souping is a way better balance mechanism than free buffs for not doing it. SM just need to lose Doctrines and super Doctrines, between the extra wound coming in October, bolter discipline and hateful assault you've got enough to make Marines elite. Doctrines would make for awesome Stratagems though and the same could be done for your suggestions.

Mine, designed for 8th edition, I tied it to being mono-god and only one effect over the course of the entire game, Slaanesh one got broken by 9th. I wanted to represent the battlefield being warped by the power of chaos, it's a real shame that every god doesn't have 2-3 competitive fortifications that you can summon anywhere, I think that would be really cool, when they deep strike in T2 it could be a real "we're not in Kansas anymore" moment.

 WisdomLS wrote:
particular gods in various phases. Likely Tzeentch - Khorne - Slaanesh - Nurgle - Undivided.

The infernal hierarchy is Khorne (8) -> Tzeentch (9) -> Nurgle (7) -> Slaanesh (6), you could start with undivided and end with Slaanesh or Khorne, depending on whether you want to build up to Khorne or go down to Slaanesh.

I would create a unique one for each Legion. That's just how I would think it though.

Khorne 5 is fundamentally broken.
It both permits and prohibits re-rolling of 1s.

I like the idea, in theory, but in practice these rules are bonkers and all over the place.

If I had to design pseudo-Doctrines for CSM I would definitely have three modes, a la Space Marines - only call them "Kill", "Maim", and "Burn" respectively.

Technically you could apply one Phase for the whole game, to represent the Legion tactics, to differ from the doctrines.
Make one for each legion and you'd be golden, of course with the caveat of mono build but still.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Technically you could apply one Phase for the whole game, to represent the Legion tactics, to differ from the doctrines.
Make one for each legion and you'd be golden, of course with the caveat of mono build but still.

I don't understand, could you try rephrasing?

 vict0988 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Technically you could apply one Phase for the whole game, to represent the Legion tactics, to differ from the doctrines.
Make one for each legion and you'd be golden, of course with the caveat of mono build but still.

I don't understand, could you try rephrasing?

Legions were more inflexible in their strategies, therefore they use one overarching doctrine instead of switching it out.
Chaosify that and you'd have an interesting diffrent take on it, compared to just coping doctrines under another name on it with the same mechanical methodical approach of switching around during the game.

Semper wrote:
So the loyalist scum get their assault, tactical and all that nancy stuff.

How about Chaos get some based on the Gods...

Question: do we feel that doctrines will still be a thing going forward? They made sense in 8th edition because they were an incentive to not take soup. You were giving up the added efficiency of taking something like a knight or a loyal 32 and replacing it with the added efficiency granted by doctrines. So a Raven Guard army could (in theory) be as powerful as a soup army and would have mechanics that brought out extra RG flavor.

In 9th, souping is already discouraged by the CP tax. So do you assume that marines will or won't have the benefit of doctrines when you set their points cost? I could see doctrines possibly going away/changing in some way that might remove the need to create an equivalent in other armies.

As others have pointed out, you've got way too many rules here. Assuming you run a mixed-god army, you're potentially looking at adding 20 special rules to a game over the course of 5 turns, and you have to "forget" and "learn" 5 different sets of powers each turn.

Jmping between powers so fast feels odd because you might very well prefer to keep the power from last turn or have the power from the next turn. Depending on the game, Khorne might need advance + charge on turn 1 but not on turn 2, and he might need extra damage in the early game rather than in the late game when he's mostly clearing out surviving (non-marine) infantry. You create a lot of opportunities to "miss" a given special rule's turn to be useful. Compare to doctrines that basically follow the assumption that you'll start the game far apart and then have more use for shorter ranged weapons as your armies close distance with each other. They only have 3 rules to remember, and there's not a huge risk that you'll "miss" the turn where your tactical or assault doctrine would have been useful. Even if you wish you could stay in devastator doctrine all game, you'll still probably have units that can get some use out of the other doctrines on a given turn.

Some of the powers seem oddly unbalanced against their counterparts. On turn 2, Slaanesh gets advance + charge. Khorne gets that, plus an additional benefit on top of that. I feel like I'm missing your reasoning.

Looking at specific powers...

Khorne
Turn 1 - Blinding Blood Lust - All khorne units have a 6+ feel no pain and can roll 2D6 for advance rolls and pick the highest (models that already have this ability get no additional benefit)
Turn 2 - Impatient Rage - May switch one charge roll for a 6, may charge after advancing.
Turn 3 - Ever Flowing Blood - Units may heroically intervene 3". Characters may heroically intervene up to 6"
Turn 4 - Murder the Champions - all close combat weapons are +1 D against non-vehicle units
Turn 5 - Every Last Drop - all units can re-roll failed hit and wound rolls of 1 in combat but rolls of 1 hit their own unit (and cannot be re-rolled)

#2 - Does this mean you treat the entire roll as a total of "6", or that you treat a single die as a 6?
#5 - So you can reroll hit rolls of 1, but also you can't reroll them?

Tzeentch
Turn 1 - Flames of Change - all shooting attacks from heavy weapons have an additional -1 AP. Blast weapons always get a minimum of 4 shots per D6.
Turn 2 - Tantalising Premonitions - Gain 1 miracle dice for each psyker in the army up to a maximum of 3.
Turn 3 - Malicious Evolution - Units may re-roll failed saves but any rolls of 1 they suffer double damage
Turn 4 - Just as Planned - One extra unit type (of your choice, determined at the start of the battle round) gets objective secured
Turn 5 - Whispers from the Lord of Fate - At the start of your turn, roll a D6 for each model with the key word 'character' on the board. On a roll of 1, you lose a VP, on a roll of 4+ you gain a VP. You do not need to use these rolls, but if you do, you need to do them for all characters. These rolls cannot be re-rolled.

#1 - If this is meant to be an equivalent to devastator doctrine, why is it better than the normal devastator doctrine?
#3 - To clarify, you only suffer double damage if your reroll results in a 1, right?
#4 - Just for that turn, right?
#5 - Others have pointed out good ways to adjust the wording.

Nurgle
Turn 1 - Fog of Decay - units count as being in light cover even if not in cover. If in any form of other cover, count as being obscured.
Turn 2 - Blighted Volleys - rapid fire & assault weapons get an additional -1 AP and 1 damage on wound rolls of 6's
Turn 3 - Immovable Death - units count as double their volume when determining objective secure and get 6+ feel no pain when within 3" of objective
Turn 4 - Deathly Visions - all enemy models within 6" of a unit with the mark of nurgle suffer -1 to their LD. This effect is cumulative to a maximum of -3.
Turn 5 - Entropic Exposure - enemy units in engagement range of friendly units suffer a mortal wound on D6 4+. Suffer D3 mortal wounds on roll of 6.

#1 - Don't Nurgle armies already have a lot of variations on this already? I could be mistaken; not a Nurgle player.
#2 - This is another one that is like a loyalist doctrine but also just better.
#4 - This is worded fine and not OP. It's just a weird dip in power towards the end of the game. It's easily the weakest of all the Nurgle effects, and I kind of thought you were trying to have the rules get more powerful as the game goes on.

Slannesh
Turn 1 - Rapturous Sounds - Noise & heavy weapons get an extra 3" of range and an additional -1 AP
Turn 2 - Salacious Speeds - Units may advance and charge
Turn 3 - Masochistic Encore- Any model that dies gets a roll. On a 6+ the model survives with 1 wound.
Turn 4 - Blissful Execution - Get Death to the False Emperor against all armies. Get it on 5's against Imperium.
Turn 5 - Urgent Climax - All models get +1 attack if they charge, are charged or heroically intervene in this battle round. Additionally, they gain 1" to their move, advance & charge rolls.

#1 - Again, it's the loyalist version ++
#2 - See above about being the Turn 2 Khorne benefit but worse.
#3 - How does this work with noise marines? Do you get to make an attack with the noise marine only if you fail the Masochistic Encore roll, or do you potentially get a "parting shot" and then realize you're not dead after all?
#4 - I haven't played my CSM in a while. Isn't this what the Slaaneshi icon already gives you?

A lot of these rules are cool. They're just much too much all at once. I don't have a specific alternative written up, but I'd rather see any CSM doctrine equivalent rule be simpler than this and lighter on the bookkeeping. Off the top of my head, maybe:

* Something closer to the sisters doctrine equivalents where you get either 1 selected trait or 2 randomized ones representing the unpredictable nature of chaos warbands.
* Sort of an army-wide version of the Space Wolf sagas tied to a given god. You start with a limited benefit, and then you get a bigger benefit when you accomplish some goal. So Khorne's big benefits might kick in once enough units have died. Slaanesh's might activate when you kill the enemy warlord or enough enemy characters. Tzeentch's might activate once you've completed a "fell ritual" action enough times (max once per turn) or once you've spent enough command points (furthering your strategic schemes). Nurgle's might kick in if you control a quadrant of the table for enough consecutive turns. Just spitballing.
* Maybe undivided armies get a version of doctrines that ties into their reason for being on the planet. So "raiders" get bonuses to closing the gap and taking out key targets. "Tormentors" get bonuses that hurt enemy morale and buff or debuff aura effects. "Glory Seekers" get bonuses when they kill characters or expensive units. That sort of thing. See the recent thread on drukhari doctrine equivalents for ideas.

I personally feel like the marks of chaos should grant additional USR's, but also feel like the game is designed to play with the trading card game feel of instants and what not pumping your units or degrading the enemy's. It does offer the advantage of being sort of fluffy/adding crunch to the fluff, without paying for crunch/fluff you aren't going to use. Like paying points to add the mark of khorne back in 7E to some CSM Havocs.

Nevertheless, I do love the idea of adding extra rules to marks of chaos, and I think it is worth thinking outside of the box. I also fully agree that making each mark do 5 different complex rules not only makes explaining what your army is doing each round a nightmare, but also opens the door to all kinds of editing and errata/faq nightmares that GW isn't properly equipped to properly proof read or impliment. Keeping the rules simpler whenever possible, or at least fewer, should be a priority.

Mark of Khorne-Let's think outside of the box for this one. Khorne is about martial prowess; he respects artillery, bolter, and chainaxe. He may favor the chainaxe, but let's have the rule reward bold warfare strategies and general martial prowess. "He cares not from whence the blood flows-Any time the last model in a unit is removed as a casualty as a result of an attack from a model with this special rule, you may gain a victory point. If the last model in one of your units with this special rule is removed as a casualty, you gain a victory point. You may only gain a single victory point per phase by this special rule. You may only gain eight victory points per battle with this special rule." This will have every unit marked Khorne screaming "Blood for the blood god!" and fighting furiously for the favor of Khorne. For up to 4 victory points per turn (1 in each of your and your opponent's combat and shooting phase) up to a maximum of 8 victory points, this special ability will reward bold but tactical decisions, and gets particularly tricky in mixed gods lists. It also rewards bringing the artillery because even Khorne understands the value in it. It could add a lot of depth. Furthermore, I would consider adding mono-god bonuses for the Khornate renegade warband and legion (World eaters) that removes or doubles the cap on VP earned from this ability.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mark of Tzeentch-Infernal Divination-During the shooting phase, each unit with this special rule may re-roll one failed to hit and to wound roll. Psykers with this ability may re-roll failed Psychic tests, but will trigger perils of the warp on doubles during the re-roll.
This one feels boring but I bet someone here can find a better replacement...

Mark of Nurgle-Nurgle's Rot-Models with this special rule lose 1" M but gain a 5+FNP in traditional FNP terminology of course.

Mark of Slaanesh-Combat Drugs-Before the game begins, choose one of the following. 1) +1" +1S. 2) Always stikes first in combat. Reduce enemy WS by 1. 3) 6++, reroll failed charges.

I'm not proud of any of my ideas except the Khorne one. I also am particularly critical of my more lengthy or multi-mechanic special rules, but I hope it gets the ball rolling.

With the extent of the creativity starting to creep in (Reanimation protocols) could we start to expand the chaos mark abilities further?

IE. Tzeentch dickery of 'use this stratagem on one enemy unit within 12" of a model with the mark of tzeentch. Turn off all that unit's aura and special abilities for this phase."

Khorne Bloodlust 'use this stratagem in the fight phase. Gain one extra attack for each enemy model within engagement range'.

I like the overall theme, some good stuff there, and while I don't have the time to review each individual entry my main comment is that it's overall too complicated.

Marines, regardless of Chapter have 3 Doctrines in a fixed order with an additional Chapter Tactic depending on which Doctrine you're in. Easy enough to remember. With this setup you'll be having to keep track of several effects changing each turn, especially if you have numerous Marks in the same army.

I can appreciate the comments of it being over complicated. The idea may have merit (after all, it's just built off marks + doctrines) but it could definitely be more elegant and simplified.

I think the chaos got in my brain...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Giving it another quick whack.

Khorne
Turn 1 - Blinding Blood Lust - All khorne units have a 6+ feel no pain
Turn 2 - Impatient Rage - Re-roll charges
Turn 3 - Ever Flowing Blood - Units may heroically intervene 3". Characters may heroically intervene up to 6"
Turn 4 - Murder the Champions - all close combat weapons are +1 D
Turn 5 - Every Last Drop - all units can re-roll failed wound rolls in combat but rolls of 1 (after the re-roll) hit own unit.

Tzeentch
Turn 1 - Flames of Change - all shooting attacks have an additional 6" range
Turn 2 - Tantalising Premonitions - During command phase, gain 3 miracle dice if there is a psyker in your army.
Turn 3 - Malicious Evolution - Units may re-roll failed saves but any rolls of 1 they suffer double damage
Turn 4 - Just as Planned - One extra unit type (of your choice, determined at the start of the battle round) gets objective secured
Turn 5 - Whispers from the Lord of Fate - At the start of your turn, you may roll a D6 for each model with the key word 'character' on the board. On a roll of 1, your opponent gains a VP, on a roll of 4+ you gain a VP. If rolled, this must be done for all characters.

Nurgle
Turn 1 - Fog of Decay - units count as being in light cover even if not in cover. If in any form of other cover, there is no additional benefit.
Turn 2 - Blighted Volleys - rapid fire weapons get an additional -1 AP
Turn 3 - Immovable Death - units count as double their volume when determining objective secure
Turn 4 - Deathly Visions - all enemy models within 6" of a unit with the mark of nurgle suffer -1 to their LD. This effect is cumulative to a maximum of -3.
Turn 5 - Entropic Exposure - enemy units in engagement range of friendly units suffer a mortal wound on D6 4+. Suffer D3 mortal wounds on roll of 6.


Slannesh
Turn 1 - Rapturous Sounds - Noise & heavy weapons get an additional -1 AP
Turn 2 - Salacious Speeds - Units may advance and charge
Turn 3 - Masochistic Encore- Any model that dies gets a roll. On a 6+ the model survives with 1 wound.
Turn 4 - Blissful Execution - close combat weapons and pistols get -1 ap
Turn 5 - Urgent Climax - All models get +1 attack if they charge, are charged or heroically intervene in this battle round.

Undivided
Turn 1 - Tantalising Premonitions (dice may be used on any unit regardless of mark)
Turn 2 - Impatient Rage
Turn 3 - Immovable Death
Turn 4 - Masochistic Encore
Turn 5 - May choose between any of the other turn 5's.