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I've been thinking about this for some time now. It is established in the lore that marine chapters like to recruit from savage, underdeveloped worlds like fenris for example to get the toughest aspirants.
So far so good, but how come no chapter has ever recruited from the people of catachan? They are among the toughest (non super human) SOBs in the galaxy. Wouldn't they make the perfect aspirants to become a marine?

I don't think there's any shortage of Deathworlds or feral worlds in the Imperium. I would say that no Space Marine Chapter has ever got round to recruiting from Catachan as there are plenty of other suitable planets that they went to first.

El Torro wrote:
I don't think there's any shortage of Deathworlds or feral worlds in the Imperium. I would say that no Space Marine Chapter has ever got round to recruiting from Catachan as there are plenty of other suitable planets that they went to first.

Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but there are shades to death worlds are there not? What I mean by that is, catachan as far as I know is among the, if not the most dangerous deathworld in the imperium. Which in turn would mean, at least hypothetically, that the catachans would be one of the most fitting and desirable aspirants to a chapter for their ability to survive in that hellhole.

It might well be because that world is already sanctioned as an Imperial Guard recruiting world - in other words, it isn't "available" for use as a Marine homeworld.
However, that just makes me think - surely a Marine request to sanction a world as its homeworld would override any such concerns from the Guard...?

Catachans isn’t the best marine material, simply due to their view on authority, they’re barely disciplined enough for a IG regiment. Add in the difficulty to actually become a marine, it isn’t worth it to sacrifice 1k-10k catachans to make 1 Catachan marine, then simply have him die to a plasma gun.

IIRC Catachans are also partly abhuman/mutants (from lore of the distant past possibly 2nd ed codex/ 3rd ed minidex?). Hence their over developed physique.

Nothing stopping recruitment from death worlds in general.

In my headcannon the main reason is, that no matter the baseline human, the result of the Marine creation process is more or less the same. A human with a top physic might have a slightly higher chance to survive it, but he will not be significantly stronger than a surviving specimen from a pleasure world that was a weakling before.

Following this idea (headcannon as I said), recruiting from Catachan with it's only 12.000.000 population (according to the wiki at least), is not really feasible. I read somewhere that only 1% survive the creation process and as only males can be used and those should be young, most SM chapters would be well advised to choose a more densely populated homeplanet or region of space.

On the other side: While Catachan guard regiments are clearly stronger than most other regiments, a Catachan Space Marine Chapter would (in my head cannon) barely be noticable stronger than a normal one. So kind of a waste of the planets population advantages.

 Pyroalchi wrote:
In my headcannon the main reason is, that no matter the baseline human, the result of the Marine creation process is more or less the same. A human with a top physic might have a slightly higher chance to survive it, but he will not be significantly stronger than a surviving specimen from a pleasure world that was a weakling before.

Following this idea (headcannon as I said), recruiting from Catachan with it's only 12.000.000 population (according to the wiki at least), is not really feasible. I read somewhere that only 1% survive the creation process and as only males can be used and those should be young, most SM chapters would be well advised to choose a more densely populated homeplanet or region of space.

On the other side: While Catachan guard regiments are clearly stronger than most other regiments, a Catachan Space Marine Chapter would (in my head cannon) barely be noticable stronger than a normal one. So kind of a waste of the planets population advantages.

That isn't entirely headcanon. Geneseed warps recipients to the point that they actually resemble their primarch. Recent novels have even pointed out that recruits with very different ethnic backgrounds develop some similarities to each other after implantation. Nothing as extreme as wiping out ethnic traces, but you'd be able to pick out Roboute's marines from Russ's or Dorn's, even without armor.

Only superficial differences existed between them. Within the population deemed human basic by the Adeptus Terra, morphology varied widely, but gene-seed assimilation erased all that, remaking a man from the core until only little of what they had been remained. Scattered memories, the cast of their skin, minor differences in height and build – these were an artisan’s chasing on the hilts of weapons made in the same manufactorum, nothing more than that.

Haley, Guy. Avenging Son (Dawn of Fire Warhammer 40,000 Book 1) (p. 237). Kindle Edition.

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As far as Catachans go... I think its purely another case of 'pay no attention to unit stats when considering lore questions'

There is a case for at least one chapter recruiting from a death world. Space Wolves.

Flesh Tearers also recruit from a Deathworld. It's even a jungle one.

I’m pretty sure the Catachan mindset would preclude their *interest* in becoming a marine. The idea of squandering thousands of Catachan lives to create a handful of Marines is a poor trade, period. I’m sure someone in the Imperium realized that. For most planets, becoming a marine aspirant is seen as an honour and privilege. On Catachan, you already have the opportunity for honour and glory by joining the Guard.

Why throw that away for a 1/1000 chance to make it as a marine? Besides, you only would want to become a marine if you were too weedy to stand on your own.

Pyroalchi wrote:In my headcannon the main reason is, that no matter the baseline human, the result of the Marine creation process is more or less the same. A human with a top physic might have a slightly higher chance to survive it, but he will not be significantly stronger than a surviving specimen from a pleasure world that was a weakling before.

I actually also kinda want to expand on this point, that Astartes don't recruit from the most physically strong aspirants, or at least that it isn't the deciding factor.

Rather, I think Space Marine Chapters recruit based on willpower and willingness to serve the Chapter.

Sure, you might have a pretty tough kid out there who beats the others in a fight, but the Chapter's going to be much more interested in the aspirant who keeps getting back up again and stands up to the victor without giving up. Sure, your smart kid might have successfully completed the task you set out for the group, but the aspirant who ends up going through the gauntlet and still survives is the one you keep eyes on. The one who breaks protocol and completes the task in the more efficient way might have succeeded at the task, but they've also demonstrated a willingness to disobey orders that might, later down the line, lead to corruption and heresy.

Plus, all you really have to do is look at who the Blood Angels recruit from - irradiated wastelanders. Are they really prime material for the strongest and toughest? No - but living in that hellhole does breed incredibly wilful and tenacious peoples.

Is this saying that Catachans aren't tenacious and wilful? Absolutely not. You have to have tenacity in body and spirit to survive those jungles. But, the Catachan's spirit also expresses itself in a very deep rooted headstrongness and resistance to authority: neither of which you want in what is essentially a walking weapon like a Space Marine.

I'd say the recruitment largely depends on the Chapter, to be honest. It's certainly true that some don't consider strength or prowess as much in their aspirants, but in many cases they still have to go undergo dangerous and often deadly trials, some of which will be physical. So we've already established there is a baseline minimum, they're not going to take your average pre-serum Steve Rogers just because he can "do this all day", for example.

On the other hand you also have examples of Chapters that very much do look for the best of the best in combat above all else - the prime example springing to mind being the Space Wolves.

 Super Ready wrote:
I'd say the recruitment largely depends on the Chapter, to be honest. It's certainly true that some don't consider strength or prowess as much in their aspirants, but in many cases they still have to go undergo dangerous and often deadly trials, some of which will be physical. So we've already established there is a baseline minimum, they're not going to take your average pre-serum Steve Rogers just because he can "do this all day", for example.

On the other hand you also have examples of Chapters that very much do look for the best of the best in combat above all else - the prime example springing to mind being the Space Wolves.

Even SW don't do that exclusively.
Keep in mind that the Wolf Priests often end up playing the role of a valkyrie- the Choosers of the Slain watch inter-tribal brawls and take the wounded/dying off the field as potential aspirants. Which isn't a best of the best situation.
How they handle themselves and how they act play a part, too. Mastery of fear, honorable conduct definitely play into Ragnar's selection in Space Wolf.

Dante is interesting for this as well. Combat ability is on the list, but there are a lot of physical, mental and medical tests that are as much or more important. They weed through the youths that show up at the testing place in droves. They give them a chance to leave, turn others away (too mutated or irradiated, I'd expect), but also look for character flaws and traits. Then the test groups in unit combat (basically capture the flag with weapons), but its way down their priority list.

It's really not possible to make space marines from catachans.

See, space marine gene seed is intended to work with normal range human biochemistry and hormones.

Catachan is a very Darwinian environment where strength and aggression are the key survival factors, hence the population has bred for strength and aggressiveness for so long that now half of catachan's population have testosterone levels so high that they would literally kill geneseed implants thru sheer testosterone poisoning.

And the testosterone levels are somewhat higher in the male half of the population.

You can't take guard from marine planets, and billions of catachans are worth more than 1000 marines.

Voss wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
I'd say the recruitment largely depends on the Chapter, to be honest. It's certainly true that some don't consider strength or prowess as much in their aspirants, but in many cases they still have to go undergo dangerous and often deadly trials, some of which will be physical. So we've already established there is a baseline minimum, they're not going to take your average pre-serum Steve Rogers just because he can "do this all day", for example.

On the other hand you also have examples of Chapters that very much do look for the best of the best in combat above all else - the prime example springing to mind being the Space Wolves.

Even SW don't do that exclusively.
Keep in mind that the Wolf Priests often end up playing the role of a valkyrie- the Choosers of the Slain watch inter-tribal brawls and take the wounded/dying off the field as potential aspirants. Which isn't a best of the best situation.
How they handle themselves and how they act play a part, too. Mastery of fear, honorable conduct definitely play into Ragnar's selection in Space Wolf.

Dante is interesting for this as well. Combat ability is on the list, but there are a lot of physical, mental and medical tests that are as much or more important. They weed through the youths that show up at the testing place in droves. They give them a chance to leave, turn others away (too mutated or irradiated, I'd expect), but also look for character flaws and traits. Then the test groups in unit combat (basically capture the flag with weapons), but its way down their priority list.

the space wolves don't do it at ALL, in addition to what you said, the space wolves most important trial, the trial of Mokai, is SPECIFICLY a test of character

The tests themselves do incorporate feats other than strength, admittedly. I was referring to how aspirants are plucked from the battlefield in the first place - they're not exactly taken from longships in clear skies. Though, ok, fair point about near-dead and dying aspirants not necessarily being the best on the field that day.

How do we know that no Catachans have been recruited?

From a pure logic perspective, you can’t prove a negative...

But, I’m not aware of any that have, and Marines tend to have “traditional” recruiting grounds and none have used Catachan.

Recruiting from a developed world depletes the Imperium’s resources (Guardsmen) while recruiting from some backwater hellhole really just messes up a bunch of otherwise “useless to the Imperium” hillbillies.

Given that recruits’ minds are utterly destroyed and rebuilt as entirely new “people” I don’t understand why Marines have any kind of recruiting criteria at all... the person that goes in is nothing like the person that comes out.

In my head it's a simple matter that Catachan is already a designated Imperial Guard recruiting world. All of the recruits already go into their regiments. Plenty other worlds to choose from. Plus lorewise it seems pretty clear the Catachan wouldn't exactly make good space marine recruits.

 Matt Swain wrote:

See, space marine gene seed is intended to work with normal range human biochemistry and hormones.

This is demonstrably false. Multiple chapters already recruit what are effectively proto-abhumans, and several of those are far more divergent from "baseline" human physiology than Catachan.

 greatbigtree wrote:
From a pure logic perspective, you can’t prove a negative...

But, I’m not aware of any that have, and Marines tend to have “traditional” recruiting grounds and none have used Catachan.

Recruiting from a developed world depletes the Imperium’s resources (Guardsmen) while recruiting from some backwater hellhole really just messes up a bunch of otherwise “useless to the Imperium” hillbillies.

Given that recruits’ minds are utterly destroyed and rebuilt as entirely new “people” I don’t understand why Marines have any kind of recruiting criteria at all... the person that goes in is nothing like the person that comes out.

That's not really true. We've seen too many first person POV marine stories that cover mortal life and early marine life, sometimes the conversion process itself.
Some chapters may do it that way (and the hypnoindoctrination, psychotherapy and drug cocktails were an important aspect of marines in the Rogue Trader era), but most of the famous marines of the major chapters are relatively intact mentally.

There have been several documented instances of Chapters being stripped of, or granted, worlds in response to transgressions or achievements. This would imply that the Astartes, vaunted as they are, still don't have the authority to simply claim a world.

Catachan is a famous Astra Militarum recuitment world, and a Chapter wishing to claim it would have to pettition Terra in the face of powerful AM opposition.

 harlokin wrote:
There have been several documented instances of Chapters being stripped of, or granted, worlds in response to transgressions or achievements. This would imply that the Astartes, vaunted as they are, still don't have the authority to simply claim a world.

Catachan is a famous Astra Militarum recuitment world, and a Chapter wishing to claim it would have to pettition Terra in the face of powerful AM opposition.

I assume the Inquisition was doing the stripping?

The claiming part may be changing, however. Dark Millenium had a bit where Guilliman announces to his council that he's reinstituting Ultramar fully* the hard way, and putting in Marines as rulers. That basically he screwed up by not doing so in the first place, and leaving rulership to mortals. This went over like a brick, of course, but no one denied he had the authority to do it.



*this gets odd because there already is an Ultramar, but apparently it used to be bigger, the '500 worlds.' Several apparently fell out of the... confederation? state? over the course of 10,000 years. Even maps clearly documenting it are lost.

There is, however, a *MASSIVE* difference between Roboute Guilliman, an actual living breathing Primarch and basically Son of the Emperor himself - therefore basically Imperium Big Boy #2 - and a Chapter Master. Even the likes of Dante and Grimnar don't hold anywhere near the power and authority Guilliman does.

 Super Ready wrote:
There is, however, a *MASSIVE* difference between Roboute Guilliman, an actual living breathing Primarch and basically Son of the Emperor himself - therefore basically Imperium Big Boy #2 - and a Chapter Master. Even the likes of Dante and Grimnar don't hold anywhere near the power and authority Guilliman does.

Yes?

But the precedent he's establishing (post Indomitus) is that Space Marines are being handed direct political power and control over ~100 worlds each. Not even chapter masters in this case, he's assigning captains as 'Tetrarchs' or whatever the term is, and assigning them a capital, displacing Imperial Governors whose families have ruled for as long as anyone can be bothered to remember.

Space Marines are functionally getting fiefdoms beyond their Chapter Homeworld or recruiting rights.

Ah, I understand now. While Guilliman is the one making the call, Marines are still getting more power than they were before regardless. It's a fair point.

Voss wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
There have been several documented instances of Chapters being stripped of, or granted, worlds in response to transgressions or achievements. This would imply that the Astartes, vaunted as they are, still don't have the authority to simply claim a world.

Catachan is a famous Astra Militarum recuitment world, and a Chapter wishing to claim it would have to pettition Terra in the face of powerful AM opposition.

I assume the Inquisition was doing the stripping?

I recall the granting and stripping were at the order of The High Lords of Terra, but it has been a while I could be mistaken.

 cole1114 wrote:
You can't take guard from marine planets, and billions of catachans are worth more than 1000 marines.

Not strictly true - Necromunda is an IF recruitment world and also has guard regiments raised (the Necromunda Spyders). However it’s neither a full on chapter homeworld nor a big name guard recruitment world like Catachan (or Valhalla, Mordia, Tallarn, etc).