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Hecaton wrote:
worse*, because they're emotionally reliant on their connection to a warp entity.

Are they? I always took it to be their connection to their faith. An actual connection would make them psykers wouldn't it? And they'd burn the witch.

But even if you're correct you've basically got a cornered animal with nothing to lose, in power armour, with flamers and melta guns. Still seems.... Kinda problematic.

I'm not really disagreeing, I'm just curious as a lot of what you're saying goes against my headcanon and I'm happy to replace it with actual canon.

In stories where the SoB do feel cut off from the Emperor they seem to take it as a challenge rather than become despondent.

E.g. ‘I feel forsaken by the Emperor, so I must have sinned somehow, so I must push myself extra hard to regain His blessing!’

You’ve got to have such a high level of faith to start having warp effects in the first place that merely damping the psychic connection isn’t really going to undercut it that much.

Hecaton wrote:
The SoB's powers *should* be warp-based if they're supernatural at all.

The SoB's power shouldn't be supernatural at all, it should be psychological effects. Or at least mysterious, but possibly just psychological.

Kayback wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
worse*, because they're emotionally reliant on their connection to a warp entity.

Are they? I always took it to be their connection to their faith. An actual connection would make them psykers wouldn't it? And they'd burn the witch.

But even if you're correct you've basically got a cornered animal with nothing to lose, in power armour, with flamers and melta guns. Still seems.... Kinda problematic.

I'm not really disagreeing, I'm just curious as a lot of what you're saying goes against my headcanon and I'm happy to replace it with actual canon.

It's definitely not actual canon, since we're seeing the opposite- they're better able to hold out (and can still use their abilities), NOT made more vulnerable.

Voss wrote:

Kayback wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
worse*, because they're emotionally reliant on their connection to a warp entity.

Are they? I always took it to be their connection to their faith. An actual connection would make them psykers wouldn't it? And they'd burn the witch.

But even if you're correct you've basically got a cornered animal with nothing to lose, in power armour, with flamers and melta guns. Still seems.... Kinda problematic.

I'm not really disagreeing, I'm just curious as a lot of what you're saying goes against my headcanon and I'm happy to replace it with actual canon.

It's definitely not actual canon, since we're seeing the opposite- they're better able to hold out (and can still use their abilities), NOT made more vulnerable.

Yes, and this is in contravention to previous canon and the themes of the setting. The Imperium is a maliciously genocidal and corrupt regime, and their "faith" is a lie.

Hecaton wrote:

Voss wrote:

Kayback wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
worse*, because they're emotionally reliant on their connection to a warp entity.

Are they? I always took it to be their connection to their faith. An actual connection would make them psykers wouldn't it? And they'd burn the witch.

But even if you're correct you've basically got a cornered animal with nothing to lose, in power armour, with flamers and melta guns. Still seems.... Kinda problematic.

I'm not really disagreeing, I'm just curious as a lot of what you're saying goes against my headcanon and I'm happy to replace it with actual canon.

It's definitely not actual canon, since we're seeing the opposite- they're better able to hold out (and can still use their abilities), NOT made more vulnerable.

Yes, and this is in contravention to previous canon and the themes of the setting. The Imperium is a maliciously genocidal and corrupt regime, and their "faith" is a lie.

No it isn't. The Empire's Tarot guiding people through the 'Emperor's Will' has been canon since the late 80s. Other miracles and weird saints (including Sisters and Legion of the Damned) have been around since 2nd edition.

The Imperium is an intentionally nasty, satirical parody, but this take on faith has been a part of that since the early years.

Even with more modern stuff, the fact that faith works at all increases the irony and failure of the Great Crusade.

Hecaton wrote:
Yes, and this is in contravention to previous canon and the themes of the setting. The Imperium is a maliciously genocidal and corrupt regime, and their "faith" is a lie.

Hmmm... that depends on one thing that we're not explicitly told. Is the Emperor still alive and pushing out the Astronomican, holding back the powers of Chaos - or is he dead and it's the Golden Throne doing all the work?
If it's the former, the faith isn't really a lie. Against the Emperor's original wishes? Maybe. Heavily exaggerated and embellished? Definitely. But there's always been a hint that the Emperor is still an active force in the galaxy, and with the use of godlike psychic powers, no less.

That this faith both inspires its warriors to greater things, while simultaneously spelling the doom of common morality and even the quietest of dissenters, only serves to reinforce the point that such gods need not be perfect. They need only be effective.

Voss wrote:

No it isn't. The Empire's Tarot guiding people through the 'Emperor's Will' has been canon since the late 80s. Other miracles and weird saints (including Sisters and Legion of the Damned) have been around since 2nd edition.

The Imperium is an intentionally nasty, satirical parody, but this take on faith has been a part of that since the early years.

Even with more modern stuff, the fact that faith works at all increases the irony and failure of the Great Crusade.

The denizens of the setting certainly *believe* that the Emperor's Tarot works. Game mechanic wise, it's always worked the same as any other psychic prognostication.

The Emperors Tarot pre dates the Emperor being the Emperor, they are in no way tied to him at all, case in point is Konrad Kurze has a set as does Magnus and Lorgar iirc, with Magnus saying they are unreliable, they are simply a visual aid in filtering warp energy in the form of divination.

As for the Sisters psychic powers, if it is supernatural then its the warp, the new fluff is SUPRAnatural and that is why it is jarring and in my opinion a mistake by the writers not knowing the lore, its happened before and is not that big a deal in the grand scheme of things especially when you consider the psychic awaking books are not written in first person in the head direct experience but 4th or 5th person heard about the events through mass censorship in universe, some scribe collating the information and saying "hur dur emprah faith helped, custodes unaffected" is bound to happen.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
The SoB's powers *should* be warp-based if they're supernatural at all.

The SoB's power shouldn't be supernatural at all, it should be psychological effects. Or at least mysterious, but possibly just psychological.

In the past, it was portrayed more subtly. A shot inexplicably just shattering a helmet instead of taking off the head, sudden surges of energy that might be dismissed as psychological, statistically unlikely shots being pulled off, etc... One of the Black Library BFG books had a Commissar giving covering fire from an obscured location at a vital moment only for after action analysis to find that he had already died before that moment and could not possibly have done so. Now though we get more outright supernatural effects, like glowing auras or glowing healing like that 9th edition trailer with the SoB having her hand healed of the gauss weapon effects.

You say that like Celestine hasn't existed for years and years. A fallen Sister of Battle who spontaneously appears where she is needed followed by two more dead Sisters of Battle who return time and time again no matter how many times they die. Nothing supernatural there.

Though not Sisters-specific, we've had Legion of the Damned and the Sanguinor floating around for a long time too, they both seem to work on broadly similar "miracle" principles... just, maybe not the Emperor's miracles.

I find the lack of faith in this thread...disturbing.

Wasn't there one event where Grey Knights or something killed a bunch of Sisters to use their blood to "sanctify" their armor?

That's probably where the Sisters' power is: in their blood. They must have a high midi-chlorian count.

 alextroy wrote:
You say that like Celestine hasn't existed for years and years. A fallen Sister of Battle who spontaneously appears where she is needed followed by two more dead Sisters of Battle who return time and time again no matter how many times they die. Nothing supernatural there.

Sure, and she's basically a demon/warp entity. Ditto with the Legion of the Damned. Something like a Pariah Nexus should be extremely disruptive to them.

 Super Ready wrote:
Though not Sisters-specific, we've had Legion of the Damned and the Sanguinor floating around for a long time too, they both seem to work on broadly similar "miracle" principles... just, maybe not the Emperor's miracles.

Mysterious entities that vanish leaving behind no material evidence and tales that skeptics can dismiss is one thing. That's like that Black Library dead commissar that saved the day yet is found to be long dead before that moment. There remains some deniability by the wider universe.

Having armies of living people experience glowing healing or other overt supernatural events when they pray is less easily denied.

While I know the latter portrayal is here to stay especially with Living Saints now and the 9th edition trailer, I kind of preferred the "Emperor works in mysterious ways" subtlety to contrast with the more gaudy flashy powers of the Chaos gods. So I prefer for example a successful SoB Act of Faith saving throw to be the enemy's gun jamming or the helmet shattering but leaving the SoB unharmed against a blow that should have been lethal, instead of a flashy golden aura deflecting the blow.