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Galas wrote: Yeah, competitive meta is very healthy with the exception of the going first problem. Thats a BIG problem, you can't accept every faction in the game barring 4 having a bigger than 10%(most even higher than 15%) difference in winrate by going first or second.
Marines still feel oppresive agaisnt "casual lists" but that gap will disappear when other factions receive their 9th codex.
Sadly after that then we will have marine codex 4.0 and they'll jump again to the top.
Maybe after 2 years of being bottom again. Yet...none of the marine haters will ever admit it. LOL.
Marines are not above everyone else, despite what some people like to say about it.
I wonder how people who normally argue that balance on a high competitive level is more important than in casual play, would rate the relative strength of Marines now.
Yeah except that's not what it proves when Marines Fight Marines aka 40% of their games statistics mean that they have a 50% win ratio regardless, this depresses the overall results.
To compair marines to non marines you have to remove all the chapters and check the ratio versus the field.
Supliment spam and the insistence that they be tracked seperately destroyed win ratio as a meaningful measure for marines.
Marines fight marines is only relevant when its a mirror like ultras vs ultras. Let me tell you how exceedingly rare that is there are like 6 popular chapters - they are separate armies which often as much difference as vanilla vs chaos. All that could really do with a mirror match is bring you close to 50% anyways - a losing win rate is actually worse as the result of mirror matches.,. A lot of times they correct for mirrors though. As in - a losing marine chapter would actually have a worse win rate if you removed the mirror matches.
Salamanders vrs Ultramines is one codex. Its a mirror match.
>50% win ratio the marines are running 575 games.
With <50% win ratio marines played 216 games
Galas wrote: Dont start that again! You have other 8 active threads to complaint about marines or about people that complaints about marines.
This is to talk abour real tournament data.
Oh I was just making a sinde joke. Marines are clearly a top army right now in my eyes...several marine factions below 50% WR though in these ITC games. So clearly it's not as bad as they make it out to be.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Wait, are you saying that Marines were the *worst* faction for 2 years? Or are you lying again?
Right!? They weren't even "the worst" with 8th ed 1.0.
Still had some stupid strong builds even then .... but .... like the man said .... "Haters"
I do think they did a decent job reigning in the 9th ed Marine book without nerfing it into the ground, so hopefully that evens out once everyone is on their new dex. But the going first issue ... is, was, and will continue to be an issue until they make some rules changes imo.
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
Galas wrote: Yeah, competitive meta is very healthy with the exception of the going first problem. Thats a BIG problem, you can't accept every faction in the game barring 4 having a bigger than 10%(most even higher than 15%) difference in winrate by going first or second.
Marines still feel oppresive agaisnt "casual lists" but that gap will disappear when other factions receive their 9th codex.
Sadly after that then we will have marine codex 4.0 and they'll jump again to the top.
Maybe after 2 years of being bottom again. Yet...none of the marine haters will ever admit it. LOL.
Marines are not above everyone else, despite what some people like to say about it.
I wonder how people who normally argue that balance on a high competitive level is more important than in casual play, would rate the relative strength of Marines now.
Yeah except that's not what it proves when Marines Fight Marines aka 40% of their games statistics mean that they have a 50% win ratio regardless, this depresses the overall results.
To compair marines to non marines you have to remove all the chapters and check the ratio versus the field.
Supliment spam and the insistence that they be tracked seperately destroyed win ratio as a meaningful measure for marines.
Marines fight marines is only relevant when its a mirror like ultras vs ultras. Let me tell you how exceedingly rare that is there are like 6 popular chapters - they are separate armies which often as much difference as vanilla vs chaos. All that could really do with a mirror match is bring you close to 50% anyways - a losing win rate is actually worse as the result of mirror matches.,. A lot of times they correct for mirrors though. As in - a losing marine chapter would actually have a worse win rate if you removed the mirror matches.
Salamanders vrs Ultramines is one codex. Its a mirror match.
>50% win ratio the marines are running 575 games.
With <50% win ratio marines played 216 games
So more winning than loosing.
They aren't a mirror match...that is why they separate them guy. Otherwise it would just say...All Astrartes. Also - they can still draw from their supplements. They are very different armies.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Ice_can wrote: Yeah except that's not what it proves when Marines Fight Marines aka 40% of their games statistics mean that they have a 50% win ratio regardless, this depresses the overall results.
To compair marines to non marines you have to remove all the chapters and check the ratio versus the field.
Supliment spam and the insistence that they be tracked seperately destroyed win ratio as a meaningful measure for marines.
- Does not explain why overall win percentage went down after the new codex.
- Other factions (with a higher win percentage) never face mirrors?
Please look at other Goonhammer articles where they inspect tourney winner lists. Not only do they look wildly different from how Dakka depicts a typical meta list (spoiler: no Eradicator spam), but they are also very mixed when it comes to factions. You might not want to admit it, but Marines are not the big meanie you accuse them to be.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/30 20:19:28
Designer's Note: Hardened Veterans can be represented by any Imperial Guard models, but we've really included them to allow players to practise their skills at making a really unique and individual unit. Because of this we won't be making models to represent many of the options allowed to a Veteran squad - it's up to you to convert the models. (Imperial Guard, 3rd Edition)
Ice_can wrote: Yeah except that's not what it proves when Marines Fight Marines aka 40% of their games statistics mean that they have a 50% win ratio regardless, this depresses the overall results.
To compair marines to non marines you have to remove all the chapters and check the ratio versus the field.
Supliment spam and the insistence that they be tracked seperately destroyed win ratio as a meaningful measure for marines.
- Does not explain why overall win percentage went down after the new codex.
- Other factions (with a higher win percentage) never face mirrors?
Please look at other Goonhammer articles where they inspect tourney winner lists. Not only do they look wildly different from how Dakka depicts a typical meta list (spoiler: no Eradicator spam), but they are also very mixed when it comes to factions. You might not want to admit it, but Marines are not the big meanie you accuse them to be.
I'm not accusing them of being a big meany I'm highlighting that mirros for things like deamons 6 list vrs 190 armies playing that weekend.
Marines having 54 of the 190 armies playing marines having mirrors will impact marines alot more.
Marines popularity as 29% of the armies means the mirrors matter more than a faction thats 3% of the armies.
Ice_can wrote: Yeah except that's not what it proves when Marines Fight Marines aka 40% of their games statistics mean that they have a 50% win ratio regardless, this depresses the overall results.
To compair marines to non marines you have to remove all the chapters and check the ratio versus the field.
Supliment spam and the insistence that they be tracked seperately destroyed win ratio as a meaningful measure for marines.
- Does not explain why overall win percentage went down after the new codex.
- Other factions (with a higher win percentage) never face mirrors?
Please look at other Goonhammer articles where they inspect tourney winner lists. Not only do they look wildly different from how Dakka depicts a typical meta list (spoiler: no Eradicator spam), but they are also very mixed when it comes to factions. You might not want to admit it, but Marines are not the big meanie you accuse them to be.
I'm not accusing them of being a big meany I'm highlighting that mirros for things like deamons 6 list vrs 190 armies playing that weekend.
Marines having 54 of the 190 armies playing marines having mirrors will impact marines alot more.
Marines popularity as 29% of the armies means the mirrors matter more than a faction thats 3% of the armies.
What about Custodes and Quinns?They seem to be pretty dominant.
Point is every army has mirror matches. The more attendies the more likely it is. Custodes have them too. Their win rate is actually much higher vs non custodian armies than the already super high WR they have now. WR doesn't matter though right?
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Xenomancers wrote: What about Custodes and Quinns?They seem to be pretty dominant.
Point is every army has mirror matches. The more attendies the more likely it is. Custodes have them too. Their win rate is actually much higher vs non custodian armies than the already super high WR they have now. WR doesn't matter though right?
Except because Custodes are all statistically analysed as custodes instead of being broken down into their shield hosts.
The win ratio analysis should exclude custodes vrs custodes.
Harlequins vrs Harlequines games likewise should be excluded from their win ratios.
But continue trying to put words i my mouth I didn't say as you usually do when your found to be wrong.
Xenomancers wrote: What about Custodes and Quinns?They seem to be pretty dominant.
Point is every army has mirror matches. The more attendies the more likely it is. Custodes have them too. Their win rate is actually much higher vs non custodian armies than the already super high WR they have now. WR doesn't matter though right?
Except because Custodes are all statistically analysed as custodes instead of being broken down into their shield hosts.
The win ratio analysis should exclude custodes vrs custodes.
Harlequins vrs Harlequines games likewise should be excluded from their win ratios.
But continue trying to put words i my mouth I didn't say as you usually do when your found to be wrong.
Depends if you break down to supplement level or not, which they appear to. I'd argue that's the best way to do it as well.
Full set of strats, traits, powers, relics and super doctrines + the rest create enough divergence.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/30 21:28:56
Xenomancers wrote: What about Custodes and Quinns?They seem to be pretty dominant.
Point is every army has mirror matches. The more attendies the more likely it is. Custodes have them too. Their win rate is actually much higher vs non custodian armies than the already super high WR they have now. WR doesn't matter though right?
Except because Custodes are all statistically analysed as custodes instead of being broken down into their shield hosts.
The win ratio analysis should exclude custodes vrs custodes.
Harlequins vrs Harlequines games likewise should be excluded from their win ratios.
But continue trying to put words i my mouth I didn't say as you usually do when your found to be wrong.
Depends if you break down to supplement level or not, which they appear to. I'd argue that's the best way to do it as well.
Full set of strats, traits, powers, relics and super doctrines + the rest create enough divergence.
Spoiler:
I disagree but that's because I fundamentally disagree with the suppliments. A Marines is a Marine and I've played against way to many Marines using another chapter's rules as they where the most OP chapter.
While adding flavour etc sounds fine the supliments are just a straight up have more rules with zero ingame cost.
Again that's fine but it does mean that Saying Marines are OK is absolutely not what those results prove they can say X Or Y sub faction is in a place but thats all
As for a Marines are fine statement.
No you can't say that if the analysis is not done at a marines levek.
Marines are not above everyone else, despite what some people like to say about it.
I wonder how people who normally argue that balance on a high competitive level is more important than in casual play, would rate the relative strength of Marines now.
Marines are not above everyone else, despite what some people like to say about it.
I wonder how people who normally argue that balance on a high competitive level is more important than in casual play, would rate the relative strength of Marines now.
Marines are not above everyone else, despite what some people like to say about it.
I wonder how people who normally argue that balance on a high competitive level is more important than in casual play, would rate the relative strength of Marines now.
Q. Does the stat from link remove mirror matches?
If not those stats are worthless.
It's not clear but to be hitting so close to 50% I'm not sure it's that relevant. Either they're fairly balanced or a large majority of the games must be mirror matches to force that and im talking over 80% large majority.
Wait, are you saying that Marines were the *worst* faction for 2 years? Or are you lying again?
Right!? They weren't even "the worst" with 8th ed 1.0.
Still had some stupid strong builds even then .... but .... like the man said .... "Haters"
I do think they did a decent job reigning in the 9th ed Marine book without nerfing it into the ground, so hopefully that evens out once everyone is on their new dex. But the going first issue ... is, was, and will continue to be an issue until they make some rules changes imo.
Show me those pre 2.0 Iron Hands stupid strong builds?
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Wait, are you saying that Marines were the *worst* faction for 2 years? Or are you lying again?
Right!? They weren't even "the worst" with 8th ed 1.0.
Still had some stupid strong builds even then .... but .... like the man said .... "Haters"
I do think they did a decent job reigning in the 9th ed Marine book without nerfing it into the ground, so hopefully that evens out once everyone is on their new dex. But the going first issue ... is, was, and will continue to be an issue until they make some rules changes imo.
Show me those pre 2.0 Iron Hands stupid strong builds?
Index era guilliman parking lot, not healthy overall for the codex but "competitively healthy" because you have one build...
Hence why tournament data is a bit iffy imo to balance the whole game.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Wait, are you saying that Marines were the *worst* faction for 2 years? Or are you lying again?
Right!? They weren't even "the worst" with 8th ed 1.0.
Still had some stupid strong builds even then .... but .... like the man said .... "Haters"
I do think they did a decent job reigning in the 9th ed Marine book without nerfing it into the ground, so hopefully that evens out once everyone is on their new dex. But the going first issue ... is, was, and will continue to be an issue until they make some rules changes imo.
Show me those pre 2.0 Iron Hands stupid strong builds?
Index era guilliman parking lot, not healthy overall for the codex but "competitively healthy" because you have one build...
Hence why tournament data is a bit iffy imo to balance the whole game.
Index Era Guilliman was only usable for Codex: SM not for Wolves, or the Angels who couldn't use him. So 1/4 of Space Marine Codices had a top tier build but as a whole they were bad.
Marines are not above everyone else, despite what some people like to say about it.
I wonder how people who normally argue that balance on a high competitive level is more important than in casual play, would rate the relative strength of Marines now.
Q. Does the stat from link remove mirror matches?
If not those stats are worthless.
They don't seem to distinguish that, no.
It is simple to correct for. They should do it. It's not as big a deal as you making it out to be though.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Show me those pre 2.0 Iron Hands stupid strong builds?
Like others have said - you had Bobby G and the Razorbacks, and Stormraven spam etc. While they were certainly not top-tier as a whole, the marine 1.0 codex actually had several legit top-tier builds. So, to imply they were ever the worst, when some other books only had options for terrible builds is a bit disingenuous or misinformed. The fact that 2.0 gave them access to a whole swathe of ridiculous builds later really has no bearing on that point.
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
Even if the data is not fully correct having 20%+ gaps in win ratio for some armies, between going first and second is big. And this impacts people with less optimised and less skill even more then those with tournament lists and good skills.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Wait, are you saying that Marines were the *worst* faction for 2 years? Or are you lying again?
Right!? They weren't even "the worst" with 8th ed 1.0.
Still had some stupid strong builds even then .... but .... like the man said .... "Haters"
I do think they did a decent job reigning in the 9th ed Marine book without nerfing it into the ground, so hopefully that evens out once everyone is on their new dex. But the going first issue ... is, was, and will continue to be an issue until they make some rules changes imo.
Show me those pre 2.0 Iron Hands stupid strong builds?
Index era guilliman parking lot, not healthy overall for the codex but "competitively healthy" because you have one build...
Hence why tournament data is a bit iffy imo to balance the whole game.
Index Era Guilliman was only usable for Codex: SM not for Wolves, or the Angels who couldn't use him. So 1/4 of Space Marine Codices had a top tier build but as a whole they were bad.
hence why i said not healthy for the whole dex, also angels gave smash captains to it, in conjunction with some scouts and a knight...
Like i said, it's the same measurement applied to Chaos from Xeno, which is funny as gak, considering you either then apply that measurement overall getting to absolute ridicoulus state that TS somehow was fine f.e. (except it wasn't at it was a bunch of DP^s and ahriman or Sorccers much involvment and TS was been had) or DG or Inner CSM soup, or you don't apply it and end with the situation that maybee , yes SOUP overall was for a competitve balance point of view BAD...
TS are literally one of the best performing factions in 8th eddition.
You have a source for that? i havnt checked into it but pretty much everyone ive seen in battle reports seems to think theyre a pretty below average army right now.
40k stats. For years TS were at the top of the charts for win rates. Virtually every choas army was taking a TS detachment.
Lol, take x detachment and suddendly the whole dex performs well that is a non argument and just shows the lackluster state of most chaos dexes needing to soup to be relevant....
This is how choas functions. They are specifically designed this way. In 8th - no one was bringing mono army so it's pointless to even make this argument. Interestingly...can you name another army other than marines that has to give up all their special rules to take allies? It's almost like they are specifically designed to be a mono force.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/11/02 20:37:29
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Wait, are you saying that Marines were the *worst* faction for 2 years? Or are you lying again?
Right!? They weren't even "the worst" with 8th ed 1.0.
Still had some stupid strong builds even then .... but .... like the man said .... "Haters"
I do think they did a decent job reigning in the 9th ed Marine book without nerfing it into the ground, so hopefully that evens out once everyone is on their new dex. But the going first issue ... is, was, and will continue to be an issue until they make some rules changes imo.
Show me those pre 2.0 Iron Hands stupid strong builds?
Index era guilliman parking lot, not healthy overall for the codex but "competitively healthy" because you have one build...
Hence why tournament data is a bit iffy imo to balance the whole game.
Index Era Guilliman was only usable for Codex: SM not for Wolves, or the Angels who couldn't use him. So 1/4 of Space Marine Codices had a top tier build but as a whole they were bad.
hence why i said not healthy for the whole dex, also angels gave smash captains to it, in conjunction with some scouts and a knight...
Like i said, it's the same measurement applied to Chaos from Xeno, which is funny as gak, considering you either then apply that measurement overall getting to absolute ridicoulus state that TS somehow was fine f.e. (except it wasn't at it was a bunch of DP^s and ahriman or Sorccers much involvment and TS was been had) or DG or Inner CSM soup, or you don't apply it and end with the situation that maybee , yes SOUP overall was for a competitve balance point of view BAD...
TS are literally one of the best performing factions in 8th eddition.
You have a source for that? i havnt checked into it but pretty much everyone ive seen in battle reports seems to think theyre a pretty below average army right now.
40k stats. For years TS were at the top of the charts for win rates. Virtually every choas army was taking a TS detachment.
Lol, take x detachment and suddendly the whole dex performs well that is a non argument and just shows the lackluster state of most chaos dexes needing to soup to be relevant....
This is how choas functions. They are specifically designed this way. In 8th - no one was bringing mono army so it's pointless to even make this argument. Interestingly...can you name another army other than marines that has to give up all their special rules to take allies? It's almost like they are specifically designed to be a mono force.
8th was a soup eddition for the most part. Marines are specifically a no soup faction now. It might be this way moving forward for everyone but...until then it must be aknowledged. Marines are basically bared competitively from taking allies where no one else is. Except armies that have no allies ofc.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/02 20:51:28
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
8th was a soup eddition for the most part. Marines are specifically a no soup faction now. It might be this way moving forward for everyone but...until then it must be aknowledged. Marines are basically bared competitively from taking allies where no one else is. Except armies that have no allies ofc.
1 WTAF does 8th edition have any relevence to a discussion of 9th edition or the current broken mess that is "Balanced points for 9th edition CA2020".
2 9th edition already made soup at best a sub optimal way to play competitively with the CP system.
3 So those same armies that got shafted for all of 8th with no way to abuse Allies don't have any benifit while marines get free bonuses with no points costs, but thats a downside for marines?
Like seriously do you actually stop and think before you post or do you just hope that if you throw enough posts up people will just accept your points?
I think the Marine stats are in flux. Very cynically I feel some of this is a result of weaker players trying their hand with old models but a new book for the lols. On faction breakdown, I tend to agree Fists are down because unless you are a genuine Fists player I'm not sure why you'd bother, but its hard to feel the same about White Scars who I feel should be very solid (list depending).
I think the point that going second is awful for primary objectives is entirely true - and the armies that can do something about it, i.e. Harlequins and Daemons (Slaanesh), are reasonable and observable. Something like DE for instance has the pace to really put pressure on if going first but unlike Harlequins lacks the first turn assault potential, so its clearly an uphill battle if going second.
As for their take on the meta... I guess I could do the analysis myself - but it would be really useful if they broke down the results over just the last month, rather than going all the way back to August. It would show evolution.
Because as it stands, they conclude the meta is healthy, but in comparison to what? I guess the argument is that every faction bar Knights and Tau has a 50%+, many over 60%, chance to win *when going first* - so arguably this matters *more* than your faction choice. Unless you are playing Slaanesh or Quins, in which case you're probably screwed.
But its hard to think the game is that healthy when so many factions have an abysmal go second win rate.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/02 23:07:04
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
8th was a soup eddition for the most part. Marines are specifically a no soup faction now. It might be this way moving forward for everyone but...until then it must be aknowledged. Marines are basically bared competitively from taking allies where no one else is. Except armies that have no allies ofc.
1 WTAF does 8th edition have any relevence to a discussion of 9th edition or the current broken mess that is "Balanced points for 9th edition CA2020".
2 9th edition already made soup at best a sub optimal way to play competitively with the CP system.
3 So those same armies that got shafted for all of 8th with no way to abuse Allies don't have any benifit while marines get free bonuses with no points costs, but thats a downside for marines?
Like seriously do you actually stop and think before you post or do you just hope that if you throw enough posts up people will just accept your points?
Free bonus with no cost - literally every army gets free bonus with no cost.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
8th was a soup eddition for the most part. Marines are specifically a no soup faction now. It might be this way moving forward for everyone but...until then it must be aknowledged. Marines are basically bared competitively from taking allies where no one else is. Except armies that have no allies ofc.
1 WTAF does 8th edition have any relevence to a discussion of 9th edition or the current broken mess that is "Balanced points for 9th edition CA2020".
2 9th edition already made soup at best a sub optimal way to play competitively with the CP system.
3 So those same armies that got shafted for all of 8th with no way to abuse Allies don't have any benifit while marines get free bonuses with no points costs, but thats a downside for marines?
Like seriously do you actually stop and think before you post or do you just hope that if you throw enough posts up people will just accept your points?
Free bonus with no cost - literally every army gets free bonus with no cost.
lol, such nonsense, especially when these "free boni " ranged from actually detrimental to completly broken rules piles upon piles.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
8th was a soup eddition for the most part. Marines are specifically a no soup faction now. It might be this way moving forward for everyone but...until then it must be aknowledged. Marines are basically bared competitively from taking allies where no one else is. Except armies that have no allies ofc.
1 WTAF does 8th edition have any relevence to a discussion of 9th edition or the current broken mess that is "Balanced points for 9th edition CA2020".
2 9th edition already made soup at best a sub optimal way to play competitively with the CP system.
3 So those same armies that got shafted for all of 8th with no way to abuse Allies don't have any benifit while marines get free bonuses with no points costs, but thats a downside for marines?
Like seriously do you actually stop and think before you post or do you just hope that if you throw enough posts up people will just accept your points?
Free bonus with no cost - literally every army gets free bonus with no cost.
lol, such nonsense, especially when these "free boni " ranged from actually detrimental to completly broken rules piles upon piles.
What rule for marines is broken? Compared to say...power from pain?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/03 15:33:28
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
8th was a soup eddition for the most part. Marines are specifically a no soup faction now. It might be this way moving forward for everyone but...until then it must be aknowledged. Marines are basically bared competitively from taking allies where no one else is. Except armies that have no allies ofc.
1 WTAF does 8th edition have any relevence to a discussion of 9th edition or the current broken mess that is "Balanced points for 9th edition CA2020".
2 9th edition already made soup at best a sub optimal way to play competitively with the CP system.
3 So those same armies that got shafted for all of 8th with no way to abuse Allies don't have any benifit while marines get free bonuses with no points costs, but thats a downside for marines?
Like seriously do you actually stop and think before you post or do you just hope that if you throw enough posts up people will just accept your points?
Free bonus with no cost - literally every army gets free bonus with no cost.
lol, such nonsense, especially when these "free boni " ranged from actually detrimental to completly broken rules piles upon piles.
What rule for marines is broken?
have i said marines, you stated ever army get's free boni, yet none of these are fething internally balanced allready, not to mention externally.
And you see this very well when you play the classic Rematch for the HH, one side has multi tier traits FOR FREE , has doctrines FOR FREE (no not allying doesn't count when your dex has double the whole ally pools choices) X times the prayers, X times the psy, options and the other side has not.
and it get's even MORE ridicoulus if you skip the spike tax payers and compare to any NON marine faction that also has neither SHOCK assault which is on some units another 100% ontop damage capability wise FOR FREE and Bolter discipline, which is ALSO double damage for Rapid fire weapons for FREE on HALF the ranges for Rapid fire weapons... not even going into ATSKNF...
you were saying?
Meanwhile you had the WB trait which was detrimental.
Also even if you were going with a diy trait the Marines got also the baseline parent chapter ontop of it, no other faction got that aswell...
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
4000+
6000+ Order. Unity. Obedience.
Thousand Sons 4000+
Eldar- 4436 pts
