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I was under the impression that in the Imperium cloning was a big no-no and that they couldn't reliably make good clones. Like on Krieg the use the Vitae Womb, where the Adeptus Mechanicum really frowns upon it for example.

Now out of nowhere the Regimental Standard openly uses cloning as a normal and understood method of creating servitors.

Vat growing things like servitors, cherubim, etc has always been common in the fluff. Basically anywhere you need a ‘human’ body but want it to be mindless.

What tends to go awry (but still happens occasionally) is cloning of specific individuals (e.g. the Afriel Strain) or vat growing humans that you actually want to treat as humans rather than make machines out of.

One of the SoB novels (Red and Black IIRC, but not 100% sure) explains the legal technicalities of it. In the Lex Imperialis, clones are not people. Using clone bodies for servitors or to mature Astartes geneseed is fine. But it's illegal to treat a clone as a person.

So clones can't be members of any Adeptus organisation or hold any sort of leadership position at all, even at a local/planetary level. Clones are menial slaves by definition. Using a clone workforce in your factory or harvesting crops is OK. But they need natural-born human overseers. You can't permit the clones to make any meaningful decisions.

In the Krieg case, it's a grey area that creates a whole bunch of problems. Clones can certainly be used as slave-soldiers. But can clones be officers, or even NCOs? Can a cloned Kriegsman with the rank of sergeant give orders to a private from, say, a Cadian regiment who has been separated from her own unit? Obviously not, because clones aren't people, even if you sew three stripes on their uniform. So can that lone Cadian now take command of an entire Krieg regiment because she 'outranks' even their officers by being a 'real' human? Obviously that would be absurd. But the Lex probably says she can, technically. That's just the sort of ambiguity the Munitorum really hates.

Clones probably don't technically qualify to fulfil planetary tithing requirements either, so if your tithe states you have to raise 10,000 guardsmen this year and you instead send 10,000 clone troopers, you might actually have failed to meet your tithe. If Krieg regiments weren't so damned effective in battle, the Imperium wouldn't tolerate this for a moment.

But that raises the other important point. "The Lex is Above All, But the Emperor is Far Away". The Imperium is vast and there's actually massive scope for people to pragmatically turn a blind eye to things. It's clearly better for the Imperium for Krieg to be allowed to continue as it is, so nobody is going to rock the boat for now. Likewise, several Houses on Necromunda are pretty blatantly violating the Lex with cloning and vat-growing, but it's not really in anyone's interest to look too closely at whether the leadership of House Goliath or House Escher are technically people under the Lex's definitions. If Lord Helmawr ever decided to exterminate either House, of course, he would have a ready pretext to do so.

I feel like Duskweaver answered this one perfectly. The only thing I have to add To the subject is that the custodes are all vat grown and you could make the argument that since the primarchs where specualized clones of the Emperor all astartes are related via cloning tech. In dead sky black sun chaos gets up to cloning new astartes. It goes so so and for every successful clone they have something like hundreds of shambled messes. These messes off fleash actually end up building cities and form their own cultures.

 Nerak wrote:
I feel like Duskweaver answered this one perfectly. The only thing I have to add To the subject is that the custodes are all vat grown and you could make the argument that since the primarchs where specualized clones of the Emperor all astartes are related via cloning tech. In dead sky black sun chaos gets up to cloning new astartes. It goes so so and for every successful clone they have something like hundreds of shambled messes. These messes off fleash actually end up building cities and form their own cultures.

The Custodes are absolutely not vat-grown. The nobility of Terra offer up their young to become Custodes.

The imperium practices "Do as I say not as I do!" so if it wanted to clone people for reasons it damn well would.

Also, the imperium sure seems to turn a blind and sewn shut eye towards the fact that something allows the devastated world of Krieg to churn out a seemingly impossible number of soldiers annually

Even the normally curious holy inquisition seems oddly uninterested in finding out what's going on there...

jareddm wrote:

 Nerak wrote:
I feel like Duskweaver answered this one perfectly. The only thing I have to add To the subject is that the custodes are all vat grown and you could make the argument that since the primarchs where specualized clones of the Emperor all astartes are related via cloning tech. In dead sky black sun chaos gets up to cloning new astartes. It goes so so and for every successful clone they have something like hundreds of shambled messes. These messes off fleash actually end up building cities and form their own cultures.

The Custodes are absolutely not vat-grown. The nobility of Terra offer up their young to become Custodes.

Custodes aren’t vat grown, they’re taken as infants, usually from noble families and genetically and otherwise modified.

Also the Primarchs aren’t clones. They are made in a lab, but are a combination of two peoples genetics, one male and one female, so they have a mother and a father (Erda and the Emperor). They’re obviously genetically modified and sorcery/magic/ warp shenanigans too and who knows what else, but they definitely aren’t clones.

Always been clowning in 40K. It’s just very frowned upon unless it’s just for flesh. They coined horus back in 1st edition I think? Or maybe 2nd.

Andykp wrote:
Always been clowning in 40K.

No, you're thinking of the Harlequins...

Andykp wrote:
Always been clowning in 40K. It’s just very frowned upon unless it’s just for flesh. They coined horus back in 1st edition I think? Or maybe 2nd.

No one's arguing that chaos doesn't have clones. Only that the Imperium tries not to use them for religious reasons.

Fabius Bile only still lives due to cloning.

And aren’t the original primaris clones? It’s a wonder that cloning is not considered acceptable for the astartes as they are just a tool of war

mrFickle wrote:
Fabius Bile only still lives due to cloning.

And aren’t the original primaris clones? It’s a wonder that cloning is not considered acceptable for the astartes as they are just a tool of war

Nope. That was garbage that people were talking about at the "HURR IT'S ATTACK OF THE MARINEZ" stage of Primaris introduction.

The 'tubes' that everyone kept insisting were clones? That was a cryostasis system. The 'original' crop of Primaris were recruits/volunteers/voluntolds from the Loyalists at the end of the Horus Heresy. They were put into stasis.

Also worth mentioning that the Death Korps aren't "clones" in the general sense. They use a thing called a "vitae-womb". We don't know full details, but it's apparently considered an abomination by the Biologis yet they are still considered human.

 Kanluwen wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
Fabius Bile only still lives due to cloning.

And aren’t the original primaris clones? It’s a wonder that cloning is not considered acceptable for the astartes as they are just a tool of war

Nope. That was garbage that people were talking about at the "HURR IT'S ATTACK OF THE MARINEZ" stage of Primaris introduction.

The 'tubes' that everyone kept insisting were clones? That was a cryostasis system. The 'original' crop of Primaris were recruits/volunteers/voluntolds from the Loyalists at the end of the Horus Heresy. They were put into stasis.

Also worth mentioning that the Death Korps aren't "clones" in the general sense. They use a thing called a "vitae-womb". We don't know full details, but it's apparently considered an abomination by the Biologis yet they are still considered human.

I always assumed that as it was called a vitae-womb was it was some sort of synthetic/mechanical womb, that you took Human Mother and Human fathers DNA etc and combined it and placed it in said contraption, so still "human" just prevents the problematic this female cant do x/y/z job because pregnant problem. Also means you dont have malnourished people trying to carry babies and all the health issues that causes.

Frankly, given that the planet is supposed to be a radioactive hellscape?

I'm guessing it's got more to do with the people being pretty heavily infertile or even sterile and the vitae-wombs are used to account for that.

I'm not sure about the kriegers. I'm thinking they could be clones as so much of the planet's population may have messed up DNA from all that radiation maybe only some dna is 'acceptable" for producing soldiers and the rest of the population, at best, is like that kid from deliverance.

So they may all be clones based on the remaining viable DNA. Since the exported troops are all of the world anyone sees they don't realize the rest of the population is degenerating and becoming more mutated over time.

Plus the way all the DK wear masks constantly, maybe to hide the fact their faces look so similar?

it's just a fan theory, kinda fits the dark meme idea, plus exposes the imperium's hypocrisy.

It's what I called it. Vitae-Wombs. P87 of Vraks volume 1.

No mention of clones or the like.

 Kanluwen wrote:
It's what I called it. Vitae-Wombs. P87 of Vraks volume 1.

No mention of clones or the like.

Well, of course they're not going to mention cloning

And yes, maybe they do use 'vitae wombs". I won't deny that. Why not? Manyof the planetary population must work constantly until they die, why should woman get a pass for a couple months? Keep them working till they drop just like the men.

But even if i agree they use vitae wombs to gestate the new units, and i actually do, that means nothing as an embryo/zygote made from cloned cells would go in one and be gestated just like a 'natural' fertilized egg.

 Matt Swain wrote:
But even if i agree they use vitae wombs to gestate the new units, and i actually do, that means nothing as an embryo/zygote made from cloned cells would go in one and be gestated just like a 'natural' fertilized egg.

The definition of a clone is to have an exact genetic match to the source. That means one parent. Conversely, a zygote is defined as having two parents, and therefore isn't a clone - it's a genetic mix of the two parents. As you say, just like a natural fertilisation.

That's the real difference here - the method of growth, be it a vitae-womb, a petri dish, a literal test-tube, makes absolutely no difference.
Technically speaking, it's not too far-fetched to say you could impregnate a woman with her own clone if there's no father involved (although I couldn't tell you what havoc that might wreak on both bodies what with immune systems and the like!!).

 Matt Swain wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
It's what I called it. Vitae-Wombs. P87 of Vraks volume 1.

No mention of clones or the like.

Well, of course they're not going to mention cloning.

Its quite likely not cloning.
It could well be a nod to one of the old 40K inspirations: Dune. The Tleilaxu 'axlotl tanks' turned out to just be their women. Braindead and wired up for external control of the womb environment and the development of the fetus.
I can easily see the 'Vitae Wombs' as a non-explicit reference to the same horrible concept.

 Super Ready wrote:

 Matt Swain wrote:
But even if i agree they use vitae wombs to gestate the new units, and i actually do, that means nothing as an embryo/zygote made from cloned cells would go in one and be gestated just like a 'natural' fertilized egg.

The definition of a clone is to have an exact genetic match to the source. That means one parent. Conversely, a zygote is defined as having two parents, and therefore isn't a clone - it's a genetic mix of the two parents. As you say, just like a natural fertilisation.

That's the real difference here - the method of growth, be it a vitae-womb, a petri dish, a literal test-tube, makes absolutely no difference.
Technically speaking, it's not too far-fetched to say you could impregnate a woman with her own clone if there's no father involved (although I couldn't tell you what havoc that might wreak on both bodies what with immune systems and the like!!).

Ok, the original sperm and egg cells may be from cloned, genetically acceptable bodies that are used to produce new offpsring. The units produced may not be strictly speaking clones, but they are produced from sperm and egg cells produced by a relatively small number cloned bodies.

This might be another reason they alkways wear masks, to keep others from noting the "family resemblance".

Hmm, I think this debate with you was productive and positive. It gave me somethings to think over and in the end I changed my idea about using cloning that still incorporates my belief cloning might be used despite the imperium's "official" condemnation of it while allowing some wiggle room on a technicality. Yes, I think it's an even better idea than my thought they were all just clones form a relatively small set of genetically uncorrupted gene sources.

Yes, an idea just as inhuman as cloning, combined with an insane rationale for it.("The soldiers are not technically clones, Inquisitor, and the only clones involved are simply used as sperm and egg donors, and are not considered to be actually people.") Thank you, super ready, you've pushed me to improve my original idea.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:

 Matt Swain wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
It's what I called it. Vitae-Wombs. P87 of Vraks volume 1.

No mention of clones or the like.

Well, of course they're not going to mention cloning.

Its quite likely not cloning.
It could well be a nod to one of the old 40K inspirations: Dune. The Tleilaxu 'axlotl tanks' turned out to just be their women. Braindead and wired up for external control of the womb environment and the development of the fetus.
I can easily see the 'Vitae Wombs' as a non-explicit reference to the same horrible concept.

I've never read Dune, this does seem like an idea that could be used in 40k, but it modern society some might find it offensive that women were being used solely for reproduction so I don't think GW would go with it. (That and maybe being sued by frank herbert's estate.)

Which takes nothing away from the fact you did bring in one hell of an appropriate, not to mention fittingly grimdark, idea.

40k has already plundered Dune for ideas. What is one more?

Also Dune is definately worth a read, along with the next 2 sequels. After that the series gets a bit too hard to read in my opinion.

 Super Ready wrote:

The definition of a clone is to have an exact genetic match to the source. That means one parent. Conversely, a zygote is defined as having two parents, and therefore isn't a clone - it's a genetic mix of the two parents. As you say, just like a natural fertilisation.

That's the real difference here - the method of growth, be it a vitae-womb, a petri dish, a literal test-tube, makes absolutely no difference.
Technically speaking, it's not too far-fetched to say you could impregnate a woman with her own clone if there's no father involved (although I couldn't tell you what havoc that might wreak on both bodies what with immune systems and the like!!).

Molecular cloning, organism cloning, and cell cloning are different things. You could create a fertilized zygote, then clone that zygote a bunch of times to create a bunch of identical copies; cell cloning can be functionally identical to causing identical twins to form if it happens early enough.

I think the main advantage of the vitae womb is not that you don't have to give maternity leave to expectant mothers, it's that you can really mass-produce kids that way. A woman can only make kids one at a time, but if you harvest her eggs, fertilize them and put them in thousands of those artificial wombs, you can make a whole batch of little kriegers in one go.

Aash wrote:

jareddm wrote:

 Nerak wrote:
I feel like Duskweaver answered this one perfectly. The only thing I have to add To the subject is that the custodes are all vat grown and you could make the argument that since the primarchs where specualized clones of the Emperor all astartes are related via cloning tech. In dead sky black sun chaos gets up to cloning new astartes. It goes so so and for every successful clone they have something like hundreds of shambled messes. These messes off fleash actually end up building cities and form their own cultures.

The Custodes are absolutely not vat-grown. The nobility of Terra offer up their young to become Custodes.

Custodes aren’t vat grown, they’re taken as infants, usually from noble families and genetically and otherwise modified.

Also the Primarchs aren’t clones. They are made in a lab, but are a combination of two peoples genetics, one male and one female, so they have a mother and a father (Erda and the Emperor). They’re obviously genetically modified and sorcery/magic/ warp shenanigans too and who knows what else, but they definitely aren’t clones.

My bad, partly on the custodes and partly on the definition of clones. Question though, did the custodes used to be vat-grown? I recall that being the case but I might very well remember it wrong. As to the primarch a friend recently introduced me to the Emperors wife, a concept I found rather silly as there’s been no mention of the primarchs being of any other geenes then the Emperors previously.

 Nerak wrote:

Aash wrote:

jareddm wrote:

 Nerak wrote:
I feel like Duskweaver answered this one perfectly. The only thing I have to add To the subject is that the custodes are all vat grown and you could make the argument that since the primarchs where specualized clones of the Emperor all astartes are related via cloning tech. In dead sky black sun chaos gets up to cloning new astartes. It goes so so and for every successful clone they have something like hundreds of shambled messes. These messes off fleash actually end up building cities and form their own cultures.

The Custodes are absolutely not vat-grown. The nobility of Terra offer up their young to become Custodes.

Custodes aren’t vat grown, they’re taken as infants, usually from noble families and genetically and otherwise modified.

Also the Primarchs aren’t clones. They are made in a lab, but are a combination of two peoples genetics, one male and one female, so they have a mother and a father (Erda and the Emperor). They’re obviously genetically modified and sorcery/magic/ warp shenanigans too and who knows what else, but they definitely aren’t clones.

My bad, partly on the custodes and partly on the definition of clones. Question though, did the custodes used to be vat-grown? I recall that being the case but I might very well remember it wrong. As to the primarch a friend recently introduced me to the Emperors wife, a concept I found rather silly as there’s been no mention of the primarchs being of any other geenes then the Emperors previously.

I’m not aware of the Custodes ever being vat grown, but it might be somewhere, there’s so much fluff spread across so many places that urs hard to keep track of it all.

The mother of Primarchs is VERY new fluff. It comes from Saturnine by Dan Abnett (published March 2020).

Custodes are treated with their genehancement from far younger than astartes are, but they do start with 'human infant, one' rather than a clone.

 Flinty wrote:
40k has already plundered Dune for ideas. What is one more?

Also Dune is definately worth a read, along with the next 2 sequels. After that the series gets a bit too hard to read in my opinion.

You are very far from alone in that view.

locarno24 wrote:
Custodes are treated with their genehancement from far younger than astartes are, but they do start with 'human infant, one' rather than a clone.

I thought I read that each custodes was “hand made”. I don’t think they were ever born naturally

mrFickle wrote:

locarno24 wrote:
Custodes are treated with their genehancement from far younger than astartes are, but they do start with 'human infant, one' rather than a clone.

I thought I read that each custodes was “hand made”. I don’t think they were ever born naturally

You're misunderstanding. Hand-made refers to the fact that the genetic alterations of each Custodian are customized for the individual and much more refined than the comparatively assembly-line process involved in Astartes implantation. But both still start with a regular human.

I went digging into the issue of the custodes and I think I've found the reason for the confusion. I checked on the lexicanum sources on custodes. From what I can gather the first mention of an infant being the basis of the custodes is from 2017 (Horus Heresy book 7: Inferno). Before this there's only been mentions of "hand made" or "vat grown". I seem to recall one of the primarchs (Lorgar I believe) taunting a custodes for being nothing but biological scrap, or something along those lines. I guess it isn't so weird to assume the custodes to be entirely vat grown before 2017 when sources started specifying otherwise.