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Not having played with the new rules yet, these are my remarks:
- Alot of units have been reigned in / readjusted / nerfed with their abilities (Eliminator, Aggressor, Captains, Executioner, ..)
- Efficiency wise there seems to be one unit left overperforming internally AND externally: Eradicator
- Newly released models don't have more favourable rules to sell them: Chaplain on bike, Gladius tanks, Hammerfall turret, that Techmarine turret, Assault Intercessor, Outrider. All fit nicely or seem a bit on the weak side. I'm undecided about Heavy Intercessor, yet.
Designer's Note: Hardened Veterans can be represented by any Imperial Guard models, but we've really included them to allow players to practise their skills at making a really unique and individual unit. Because of this we won't be making models to represent many of the options allowed to a Veteran squad - it's up to you to convert the models. (Imperial Guard, 3rd Edition)
2020/10/03 11:52:06
Subject: Re:Space Marine power level with new Codex
Its an intersting and comprehensive review - thanks
Wierd that they see no issue with Eradicators
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
eradicators are too new for them to have a huge adjustment yet. Remember, this book's rules were fully written a while ago, long before eradicators first came out
stratigo wrote: eradicators are too new for them to have a huge adjustment yet. Remember, this book's rules were fully written a while ago, long before eradicators first came out
That would make more sense if the rules for eradicaters weren't in the book in question. They're an odd blemish on what otherwise seems to be a fairly well thought out codex.
Stated to be free in another thread or atleast the multi melta is.
I heard 5 for the heavys 10 for multi-meltas. Already conflicting reports. Where's that reviewer that goes through everything page by page line by line at when you need him?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/03 13:26:05
I have to say overall, I like the Codex. And many of the changes they've made I'm actually really on board with.
As I predicted, Ravenwing/Deathwing/Wolf Guard units got keywords making them so, and it barely takes up room.
I love that you can just pay extra PL/point to upgrade your heroes into their senior forms, instead of CP, which I also love.
Scouts being moved into Elites feels weird, but I'm glad they're moved out of Troops. I'd have preferred Fast Attack.
Relic Termies being rolled into one entry also works nice for me, though at this point, I don't see why they weren't just merged wholesale into the regular Termies.
But yeah - from what I've seen, I kinda like it (and I REALLY like how the points break down format-wise at the end! All the points that are relevant to that unit, all in one place! Perfect!)
Will I buy it? No, I'm not playing any games right now. If I start playing again? Sure thing.
Stated to be free in another thread or atleast the multi melta is.
I heard 5 for the heavys 10 for multi-meltas. Already conflicting reports. Where's that reviewer that goes through everything page by page line by line at when you need him?
Stated to be free in another thread or atleast the multi melta is.
I heard 5 for the heavys 10 for multi-meltas. Already conflicting reports. Where's that reviewer that goes through everything page by page line by line at when you need him?
Either way still to dang cheap.
Yes, by a considerable margin with their current rules.
Yes. Baseline.
Not sure what the gun upgrade costs.
Stated to be free in another thread or atleast the multi melta is.
A free multimelta would make absolutely no sense... maybe it was in reference to Power Level rather than points?
That seems most likely.
From the glimpses of point costs for other units, they've changed the points section dramatically- its much more readable now. But the big thing is the default weapon loadout always seems to be subsumed into the base cost.
So eradicators should look like:
Eradicators
Unit Size.... 3-6 models
Unit Cost.....40 pts/model
---heavy melta rifle: +X pts
---multimelta: +Y pts
[with the caveat it probably shouldn't be 40 base, but it sounds like it still is]
stratigo wrote: eradicators are too new for them to have a huge adjustment yet. Remember, this book's rules were fully written a while ago, long before eradicators first came out
Not hard to read the new entry in the book, see that the already broken unit has been boosted and mention that.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Yes. Baseline.
Not sure what the gun upgrade costs.
Stated to be free in another thread or atleast the multi melta is.
A free multimelta would make absolutely no sense... maybe it was in reference to Power Level rather than points?
That seems most likely.
From the glimpses of point costs for other units, they've changed the points section dramatically- its much more readable now. But the big thing is the default weapon loadout always seems to be subsumed into the base cost.
So eradicators should look like:
Eradicators
Unit Size.... 3-6 models
Unit Cost.....40 pts/model
---heavy melta rifle: +X pts
---multimelta: +Y pts
[with the caveat it probably shouldn't be 40 base, but it sounds like it still is]
I do want to note that, while eradicators do pretty much invalidate vehicles and are pretty good against elite infantry, space marines lost a lot of their anti horde power with the hard nerf to aggressors, and the meta had already been shifting to hordes, so marines might end up falling off the top bracket being unable to effectively challenge orks or demons.
stratigo wrote: I do want to note that, while eradicators do pretty much invalidate vehicles and are pretty good against elite infantry, space marines lost a lot of their anti horde power with the hard nerf to aggressors, and the meta had already been shifting to hordes, so marines might end up falling off the top bracket being unable to effectively challenge orks or demons.
The problem is that eradicators even exsist (even if marines take a second or third teir meta possition) invalidates a lot of vehicals and other units. That GW had to turn duty eternal into a base ability for dreadnaughts to be viable says enough. Untill everyone else gets their new codex and similar -1 or halfing all damage ability on their vehicals they arn't viable as you will auto loose when you hit the marine list which can have upto 18 of the dang things for 720 points.
Necrons also trash vehicles effectively. Vehicles are just not meta. It's a thing for the early 9th meta.
I'm more interested in what counters marines than what is trashed by them, as before this codex, marines had precious few holes, but now anti hordes seems to be one from a first look. But I also might not be seeing something, and the atvs might just hit that sweet spot that trounces hordes for cheap.
stratigo wrote: Necrons also trash vehicles effectively. Vehicles are just not meta. It's a thing for the early 9th meta.
I'm more interested in what counters marines than what is trashed by them, as before this codex, marines had precious few holes, but now anti hordes seems to be one from a first look. But I also might not be seeing something, and the atvs might just hit that sweet spot that trounces hordes for cheap.
every time a new codex comes out. people confuse "invalidates my list" with "broken"
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
stratigo wrote: Necrons also trash vehicles effectively. Vehicles are just not meta. It's a thing for the early 9th meta.
I'm more interested in what counters marines than what is trashed by them, as before this codex, marines had precious few holes, but now anti hordes seems to be one from a first look. But I also might not be seeing something, and the atvs might just hit that sweet spot that trounces hordes for cheap.
every time a new codex comes out. people confuse "invalidates my list" with "broken"
Same question as before - you really think Eradicators are Fair and Balanced?
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
stratigo wrote: Necrons also trash vehicles effectively. Vehicles are just not meta. It's a thing for the early 9th meta.
I'm more interested in what counters marines than what is trashed by them, as before this codex, marines had precious few holes, but now anti hordes seems to be one from a first look. But I also might not be seeing something, and the atvs might just hit that sweet spot that trounces hordes for cheap.
every time a new codex comes out. people confuse "invalidates my list" with "broken"
Same question as before - you really think Eradicators are Fair and Balanced?
hard to tell until we've seen how the rest of the Melta changes go although given the data we've seen I think they could stand to go up 5-10 points or so.
but I'm seeing greater hyperbole from some people then we saw for WRAITH KNIGHTS in 7th edition. which where universally agreed to be underpointed by close to a hundred points
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/03 18:03:34
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
stratigo wrote: Necrons also trash vehicles effectively. Vehicles are just not meta. It's a thing for the early 9th meta.
I'm more interested in what counters marines than what is trashed by them, as before this codex, marines had precious few holes, but now anti hordes seems to be one from a first look. But I also might not be seeing something, and the atvs might just hit that sweet spot that trounces hordes for cheap.
every time a new codex comes out. people confuse "invalidates my list" with "broken"
Same question as before - you really think Eradicators are Fair and Balanced?
hard to tell until we've seen how the rest of the Melta changes go although given the data we've seen I think they could stand to go up 5-10 points or so.
but I'm seeing greater hyperbole from some people then we saw for WRAITH KNIGHTS in 7th edition. which where universally agreed to be underpointed by close to a hundred points
Wraith Knights, Wave Serpents and Eldar Scatter Bikes in various editions were the same sort of obviously broken unit that was highlighted before, during and after release but some people tried to say were fine.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
stratigo wrote: Necrons also trash vehicles effectively. Vehicles are just not meta. It's a thing for the early 9th meta.
I'm more interested in what counters marines than what is trashed by them, as before this codex, marines had precious few holes, but now anti hordes seems to be one from a first look. But I also might not be seeing something, and the atvs might just hit that sweet spot that trounces hordes for cheap.
every time a new codex comes out. people confuse "invalidates my list" with "broken"
Eradicators are so good the entire meta warps around them. They're far too effective for what they do. But they don't do everything, so if you want to get around them, you target what they don't do and what marines as a whole no longer seem to be able to do hyper cost effectively
Eradicators aside, yes the marine books appears to be toned down enough that it's a fair prospect to face all sorts of lists without them having any really huge advantage.
They seem like as a whole they're maybe a slight bump up from crons but I feel crons will mature to be less generalist and once they funnel down into a specialism they'll be better at it than marines.
All my uneducated opinion on the mostly complete info we have.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Amishprn86 wrote: A full new codex and most of this is talking about 1 unit... yeah ignoring this topic it seems, we don't need another 20pg topic on 1 unit.
This.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/03 18:13:55
2020/10/03 18:28:28
Subject: Re:Space Marine power level with new Codex
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/03 18:29:33
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
stratigo wrote: Necrons also trash vehicles effectively. Vehicles are just not meta. It's a thing for the early 9th meta.
I'm more interested in what counters marines than what is trashed by them, as before this codex, marines had precious few holes, but now anti hordes seems to be one from a first look. But I also might not be seeing something, and the atvs might just hit that sweet spot that trounces hordes for cheap.
every time a new codex comes out. people confuse "invalidates my list" with "broken"
Eradicators are so good the entire meta warps around them. They're far too effective for what they do. But they don't do everything, so if you want to get around them, you target what they don't do and what marines as a whole no longer seem to be able to do hyper cost effectively
I'm more worried about bladeguard tbh. Bladeguard were seeing just as much play as eradications and while eradicators can be essentially 'built out' of lists (don't bring vehicles or monsters. It sucks but it shuts them down pretty efficiently) bladeguard are solidly choppy against just about everything. Going up to 5 per squad is very strong and the impulsor is still a really solid transport even after the nerfs. Combine that with massively improved backline assault threats like whitescars and dark angel bikers allowing them to come into play more often and we could see an edition where melee marines are suddenly the big list to beat.
stratigo wrote: Necrons also trash vehicles effectively. Vehicles are just not meta. It's a thing for the early 9th meta.
I'm more interested in what counters marines than what is trashed by them, as before this codex, marines had precious few holes, but now anti hordes seems to be one from a first look. But I also might not be seeing something, and the atvs might just hit that sweet spot that trounces hordes for cheap.
every time a new codex comes out. people confuse "invalidates my list" with "broken"
Same question as before - you really think Eradicators are Fair and Balanced?
hard to tell until we've seen how the rest of the Melta changes go although given the data we've seen I think they could stand to go up 5-10 points or so.
but I'm seeing greater hyperbole from some people then we saw for WRAITH KNIGHTS in 7th edition. which where universally agreed to be underpointed by close to a hundred points
What rest of the melta changes are you refering too the ones that only effect imperial weapons or is this another we need to see all the codex's ie another year plus before you know if eradicators are too cheap?
Right now it's going to be some flux but I see eradicators staying dreadnaughts juat became way more durable than comparable units for the same points.
The Chief appocothory actually got buffed, you can include a CM and captain so that 1 per detachment rule already has an exception.
Some of the strategums seem to have been finally toned down, but overall its still a teir A+ codex.
2020/10/03 19:08:55
Subject: Re:Space Marine power level with new Codex
It's a discussion of marines power level overall, Eradicators are 1 unit in the codex, they might be what pushes them up a notch but consider the discussion without them for a moment.
2020/10/03 19:14:32
Subject: Re:Space Marine power level with new Codex
It's a discussion of marines power level overall, Eradicators are 1 unit in the codex, they might be what pushes them up a notch but consider the discussion without them for a moment.
That's not how things work. Like to ignore eradicators you have to start to consider alternative AT that you really don't need in an army that has eradicators. Eradicators have you covered, so as a marine player, you have your AT options set and should be thinking mostly about option that cover other avenues of play, and not other AT options you don't need.
The Bloody Sails 
"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch 
Emperor's Spears 2500
Beastmen 10k
