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 Xenomancers wrote:
Humm lets see...because 8ish bolter shots at 18" range isnt that great. Str 4 ap-0 shots are literally garabge. The only reason they were taken was because the sheer amount of dice allowed them to hurt things they shouldn't threaten. And because the sheer weight of the dice when buffed by chaplains and doctrines enhances their damage like 6 fold. The powerfists are nice but rarely used on a unit that tries to get into 18" to shoot at things. Agressors are totally medicore now. Why would I take over an outrider?

It wasn't the actual Lootas that were considered broken. It was the combo of a unit shooting twice that youll never kill because grot shield was busted.

I'm not defending erads ether. They are OP. Remove their double shots at the same target though and they are monotonous.

However with this new heavy melta rilfe...I think that puppy is fine with just 1 shot.

assuming you have an infinite number of Grotz, and always have CP to use on Grot shields, to kill Lootas hiding behind a grot shield it would take 150 wounds against T4, no saves allowed. In the process of doing this btw you also kill 25 lootas and 125 grotz. Grot shields fail on a roll of 1 per wound. So to get 150 damage on T4 SM players need 300 wounds or 450 shots, 400 shots of aggressors at the time would cost you....720pts and get you 18 aggressors So in 1 turn you could shoot through those grot shields and kill the 425pts of Lootas and the 375pts of Grotz. Of course the smarter thing to do was to simply eliminate the grotz first with bolter fire, since its easier to wound grotz on a 2+. A unit of 3 Aggressors in range of a mob of 30 grotz kills the entire mob in 1 turn of shooting. How many grot mobz did your opponents take? I never took more than 60 grotz, Most i ever saw was 90.

BTW, to kill a bit less than the Eradicator equivalent of 25 lootas in the shooting phase a SM player needs 30 Damage, which takes 90 wounds which takes 270 hits.

Basically grot shields was a beautiful gimmick that flustered people for some reason, mostly because they didn't want to waste shooting at grotz to get access to those Lootas. I played an eldar player who just barreled through the grotz and charged the lootas turn 1 to get them off the board

But to boil it all down, Loota bomb in your opinion was broken not just from damage output but also because of grot shields. So the loota bomb was 425 and if you took 90 grotz another 270pts it was relatively hard to kill. So the shoot twice shenanigans was capable of doing less damage then 6 eradicators but cost 700pts compared to the 6 eradicators costing 240.

I know that Eradicators are undercosted (no denying that) but at the same time they are still infantry and not exactly towers of invulnerability. They may be able to pop in and do some damage but that would be against one target. As a long time guard player I can say that they are certainly a threat but not one that is invincible. Hell a Leman Russ with HB sponsons has a fair chance to completely wipe them out. A few heavy weapon squads with autocannons can make a mess out of them. A single Helverin will make mince meat out of them. If they had a wound gimmick or an invuln I would certainly put them into mega cheese category. As they stand I would say they are more of a boogeyman than an actual threat compared to an IH leviathan dread was even 6 months ago (which would even today wipe them out in a single volley).

3 eradicators are as hard to kill for most weapons as a T7 10W vehicle. And you can transhuman them, put FNP on them, revive them, they get the 5++ from the 6" psychic aura, etc etc.

That's a large part of the problem: they have the sort of damage output you'd expect from a glass cannon infantry squad, but they're not actually as squishy as those squads should be.

 generalchaos34 wrote:
I know that Eradicators are undercosted (no denying that) but at the same time they are still infantry and not exactly towers of invulnerability. They may be able to pop in and do some damage but that would be against one target. As a long time guard player I can say that they are certainly a threat but not one that is invincible.

They're nearly as tough as your Bullgryns (T5/W3/3+ vs T5/W3/2+ or T5/W3/4++), cost less, and have quite possibly the most potent point-for-point anti-tank in the game.

As a Guard player, if given the option I'd take that tradeoff in a heartbeat. And that's not even touching on all the stratagems and buffs they get that Bullgryns don't.

Edit: I mean, have you actually run the math on Helverins? You need four Helverins to average wiping a squad of six Eradicators. That's 700pts of shooting to take out a 240pt unit, and that's a pretty favorable matchup. That's hardly glass cannon territory, while their weapons enable them to get a 100+% return against a non-negligible number of targets in the game.

yukishiro1 wrote:
3 eradicators are as hard to kill for most weapons as a T7 10W vehicle. And you can transhuman them, put FNP on them, revive them, they get the 5++ from the 6" psychic aura, etc etc.

That's a large part of the problem: they have the sort of damage output you'd expect from a glass cannon infantry squad, but they're not actually as squishy as those squads should be.

That's still a lot of points and CP being invested in a single unit to keep that alive. If your opponent is making you expend all your resources on that then they are doing well for themselves.

 generalchaos34 wrote:

That's still a lot of points and CP being invested in a single unit to keep that alive. If your opponent is making you expend all your resources on that then they are doing well for themselves.

It really isnt. A basic Eradicator squad is 120 points, and the kind of defensive buffs that are going to be applied to them are buffs that Marines as a whole are going to be taking across the board.

The way that Feel No Pain interacts with Multi-Damage weapons is what makes units like Eradicators and Aggressors seem a lot more survivable than they look on paper. Eradicators simply being within 6" of an Apothecary gives them Feel No Pain without having to devote any resources to them. And you also get to revive 1 model at full wounds each turn if your opponent doesn't commit a load of shooting to remove the unit. The answer to this is to kill the Apothecary, but that's easier said than done for some armies.

On a completely different note and nothing to do with Eradicators what does everyone think of how the FAQs altered some of the supplement armies and how they interact with this new book?

As an ultramarine player a lot of it was cleaning up abilities to make sure it all works with the new rules but there were a few interesting tweaks. For one Captain Sicarius can now make any Core or Character model have ObSec, which I think could very much come in handy since he is relatively cheap for his loadout. For me I think being able to fall back and still shoot now that fly is dead is going to be a very powerful tool.

yukishiro1 wrote:
3 eradicators are as hard to kill for most weapons as a T7 10W vehicle. And you can transhuman them, put FNP on them, revive them, they get the 5++ from the 6" psychic aura, etc etc.

That's a large part of the problem: they have the sort of damage output you'd expect from a glass cannon infantry squad, but they're not actually as squishy as those squads should be.

Gravis also have a +1 to saves strat when shot at by D1 weapons, I believe?

sanguine40k wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
3 eradicators are as hard to kill for most weapons as a T7 10W vehicle. And you can transhuman them, put FNP on them, revive them, they get the 5++ from the 6" psychic aura, etc etc.

That's a large part of the problem: they have the sort of damage output you'd expect from a glass cannon infantry squad, but they're not actually as squishy as those squads should be.

Gravis also have a +1 to saves strat when shot at by D1 weapons, I believe?

They have a 1CP Strat that does this.

EDIT: Whoops. Missed the word "Strat" in your post the first read, so this is just a confirmation

yukishiro1 wrote:
3 eradicators are as hard to kill for most weapons as a T7 10W vehicle. And you can transhuman them, put FNP on them, revive them, they get the 5++ from the 6" psychic aura, etc etc.

That's a large part of the problem: they have the sort of damage output you'd expect from a glass cannon infantry squad, but they're not actually as squishy as those squads should be.

And +1 save vs D1 now...

Generalchaos does make a interesting point though - more smaller vehicles.

Imagine literally everyone will pay the 5 points for basically +2D. You're going to suffer a penalty, but it looks like there is little reason to even worry about that even weighted for points. Can anyone think of a reason to avoid it other than not shooting if you run?



Anyway this is actual damage for 3 --



So typically it'd take more than one squad to kill a T6/T7 5++. It makes me think of Orks. Ironically the hardest thing for Eradicators to kill might be Killa Kanz under a 5++




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 generalchaos34 wrote:
On a completely different note and nothing to do with Eradicators what does everyone think of how the FAQs altered some of the supplement armies and how they interact with this new book?

I heard about permanent transhuman for DA Inner Circle, but I can't find what they're referencing.

IF got kicked in the nuts a bit though (likely for the better), but why fix them and not Salamanders?

Salamanders have just received a nerf in the basic chapter tactic.

Also, the salamander super doctrine has always been considered a weak one, and it would still be like that if eradicators didn't happen. The issue is in the unit, not in the super doctrine.

Additionally, the IF super doctrine was cinematically dumb. Destroying columns of tanks with bolters that magically do double damage on them? That's the sort of thing that 9th editiion GW doesn't like.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

I heard about permanent transhuman for DA Inner Circle, but I can't find what they're referencing.

DA FAQ, page 7, Abilities:

INNER CIRCLE
Those with true knowledge of the Unforgiven’s history and quest for
absolution are utterly intractable warriors who are implacable in
their Chapter’s secret hunt for the Fallen.
If this unit has the Grim Resolve Chapter Tactic, or it has the
Inheritors of the Primarch Successor tactic and it is using the
Chapter Tactic of the Dark Angels, then:
• Each time a Morale test is taken for this unit, it is
automatically passed.
• While this unit is within Engagement Range of any enemy
Fallen units, unless this unit has the Vehicle keyword, this
unit cannot be selected to Fall Back.
• Each time you select this unit to Fall Back, unless it has the
Vehicle, Ravenwing or Chapter Master keywords, roll 2D6:
if the result is less than or equal to the unit’s Leadership
characteristic it can Fall Back, otherwise it cannot Fall Back
and must Remain Stationary instead.
• Each time an attack is made against this unit, if this unit
has the Infantry keyword, an unmodified wound roll of 1-3
always fails, irrespective of any abilities that the weapon or
the model making that attack may have.

Every character and Deathwing unit has Inner Circle.

Ravenwing gets a 5++ vs ranged if they move, as the '+1 to hit if stationary' parking lot chapter tactic makes no sense for the biker company. There are also several strats that improve the save or make it work in melee.
Though the new ATSKNF makes little difference to DA. They don't take combat attrition ever (its the other half of their CT). They can lose a guy to a failed morale test, but it stops there.

With the exception of Eradicators being overtuned (or underpriced, take your pick), I'd rate the remaining units in the SM-codex as either "good", "fine" or "meh".

The codex as a whole took a hit with the nerfbat, and overall I (keyword: "I", this is my opinion, not a general fact) wouldn't consider the army to be nearly as overpowered as it was a month ago.
It's still "good" with some really strong combos, but no longer "overpowered" - and with better internal balance to boot. We might actually see Firstborn units on the field now.

I know BGV are also considered as (at least borderline) OP by many here on dakka but personally I don't see it. Yes they're cheap, durable and punch quite hard - but they're also slow footsloggers that require (nerfed) Impulsors to go anywhere fast, and have next-to-no shooting. They're good absolutely, but not OP.

They actually compare quite badly to "new design" melee specialists.

Both Skorpekh and terminators cover their role better, and let's not talk about DW Knights.
The only thing left to them is being able to go in an impulsor.

the_scotsman wrote:


I didn't assume any multimeltas because he said 240 points. Each MM is 10pts, each Heavy Melta Rifle is 5pts.

Are Sword/Shield guard not going to get screwed utterly by the SS change? Aren't they "Storm Shields" per the rules and thus going to be now essentially just +1sv, making them pointless vs meltas?

Nope, RAW atm (the FAQ doesn't appear to have changed it), Custodes at base "only" have a 5++. Storm shields would then give them a 4++ while giving them a 1+. Their detachment rule, the Emperor's Chosen, improves their invulnerable save by 1, to a maximum of 3++. So they are the only storm shield dudes to retain a 3++, while also reaping the benefits of effectively having a 1+, 0+ in cover, so you need AP3 to even reach the invulnerable, saving on a 2 against anything less.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The main problem I see with the new codex, Eradicators especially, is that it completely invalidates my entire faction; Custodes.

With a full squad of 6, at roughly 240 points, you can delete my entire guardian squad at 24".

It's entirely gak that my entire faction is now beholden to the whims of a broken unit, that can be subbed into any imperium army for the cost of a few CP.

Please stop whining about one of the single best armies in the entire game being invalidated by Eradicators, it's embarrassing.

 Void__Dragon wrote:


So they are the only storm shield dudes to retain a 3++, while also reaping the benefits of effectively having a 1+, 0+ in cover,

Victrix Guard are a 2+/3++ because their storm shields weren't changed, aren't technically storm shields, but their unchanging stats were specifically called out as intentional in the FAQ. Technically they don't have the +1 to armor save either, but they're in usually 3+ Mark X that have a 2+ instead so I'm guessing it was already baked in. And of course they're extremely niche, The changes to their bodyguard rule is interesting though.

Dudeface wrote:

 Nitro Zeus wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wow, this is almost as bad as the Castellan Apologists that 8th had....Space Marines aren't broken!!! You Can't nerf them! Seriously, every time the hot new thing gets a unanimously decreed broken thing, the hordes come out to say it's not broken. Can anyone honestly provide a justification for Eradicators not getting a nerf?

Careful. You’ll have dudeface and friends on your case in a second. Honest analysis? they no likey your kind around here, it’s all about downplaying your own personal collection because what’s better than easy mode, when you’re a terrible player?

Wow you managed to make a direct insult in under 3k words, much improved.

But no Fezzik, multiple people showed that custodes aren't vulnerable to Eradicators, the only unit you complained about and they do need a nerf. But not against custodes, they're fine.

Multiple people are wrong.

Eradicators make back their points in a single shooting phase in half range against almost every custodes unit, unless said unit is using CP for self defense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dudeface wrote:

Tyel wrote:
What definition are we using for Custodes *not* being vulnerable to Eradicators?

Okay, its not a comic 100% return which I didn't think GW would put in the game - but I think on average dice you'd expect to kill a custode with either version. Which is 50/120 or 50/135. Sticking the MM complicates it even further.

In either case - a 35-40% return before any buffs was the historic norm for being *good*. Custodes have their own protections which would reduce it but still. They have them versus most other things too.

They're good as you note, but they're one of eradicators most resilient targets, when they can one shot tanks worth more than they are, bagging 50 points of custodes is a poor return *in comparison*.

They bag, against the units you'll be shooting at. 140 to 180 points.

No one is dumb enough to shoot eradicators at shield guardians. Shield guardians don't do feth all except sit on things. You're shooting terminators and bikes.

I've just noticed that Thunder Hammers are now AP-2 and still D3.

I remember people on this site claming they were going to get flat 4 damage. In real life, they actually get nerfed But still worth 15 points, a buff should have come with a price hike as well.

 MinscS2 wrote:
With the exception of Eradicators being overtuned (or underpriced, take your pick), I'd rate the remaining units in the SM-codex as either "good", "fine" or "meh".

The codex as a whole took a hit with the nerfbat, and overall I (keyword: "I", this is my opinion, not a general fact) wouldn't consider the army to be nearly as overpowered as it was a month ago.
It's still "good" with some really strong combos, but no longer "overpowered" - and with better internal balance to boot. We might actually see Firstborn units on the field now.

I know BGV are also considered as (at least borderline) OP by many here on dakka but personally I don't see it. Yes they're cheap, durable and punch quite hard - but they're also slow footsloggers that require (nerfed) Impulsors to go anywhere fast, and have next-to-no shooting. They're good absolutely, but not OP.

Eradicators are OP with no regard to strategems.

Bladeguard are also overtuned with no regard with strategems.

But as any 40k player knows, strategems are how you figure out who gets to win a game. They define an army. And marines have a lot of really good ones that combo with units to make them amacing again. Agressors have a lot of strategem support that make them from just good back to OP again.

stratigo wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Nitro Zeus wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wow, this is almost as bad as the Castellan Apologists that 8th had....Space Marines aren't broken!!! You Can't nerf them! Seriously, every time the hot new thing gets a unanimously decreed broken thing, the hordes come out to say it's not broken. Can anyone honestly provide a justification for Eradicators not getting a nerf?

Careful. You’ll have dudeface and friends on your case in a second. Honest analysis? they no likey your kind around here, it’s all about downplaying your own personal collection because what’s better than easy mode, when you’re a terrible player?

Wow you managed to make a direct insult in under 3k words, much improved.

But no Fezzik, multiple people showed that custodes aren't vulnerable to Eradicators, the only unit you complained about and they do need a nerf. But not against custodes, they're fine.

Multiple people are wrong.

Eradicators make back their points in a single shooting phase in half range against every custodes unit, unless said unit is using CP for self defense.

OK, let's try this out.

270 points of eradicators, 4 heavy and 2 multimelta. They have to get to half range, so they moved in reality. Let's pretend they didn't and magically appeared 12 inches away.

That's 8 shots on each weapon type, 5.3 hits for each.

Wound on 3's is 3.6 wounds for each.

Most guardian units have a few shield members to tank these sorts of shots, so against shields 1.2 wounds go through for each gun type. Each wound is a kill, 2.4 killed custodes, or a 112 - 168 return or 41% - 62% of the unit costs.

If the above unit moved, it drops to 1.8 dead custodes.

Granted they kill 3 of whatever 4++ unit they fire at, it is likely they kill a unit of 3 bikes and make back 285 points in return, that's the only time that unit can manage it and requires the heavy rifles, be within 12" and not move.

Dudeface wrote:

OK, let's try this out.

270 points of eradicators, 4 heavy and 2 multimelta. They have to get to half range, so they moved in reality. Let's pretend they didn't and magically appeared 12 inches away.

That's 8 shots on each weapon type, 5.3 hits for each.

Wound on 3's is 3.6 wounds for each.

Most guardian units have a few shield members to tank these sorts of shots, so against shields 1.2 wounds go through for each gun type. Each wound is a kill, 2.4 killed custodes, or a 112 - 168 return or 41% - 62% of the unit costs.

If the above unit moved, it drops to 1.8 dead custodes.

Actually it's okay Marines have a strategum to make units count as not moving,
The MultiMelta I think makes sence as they can shoot them twice Not sure that the heavy melta rifles make sence.
Take your chief apoch and that 6 man unit can have a 6+ FNP 3 wounds healed per turn and 1 model for 0CP
Not a bad brick wall of a unit especially if combined with some Agressors thats quite a death ball.

Ice_can wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

OK, let's try this out.

270 points of eradicators, 4 heavy and 2 multimelta. They have to get to half range, so they moved in reality. Let's pretend they didn't and magically appeared 12 inches away.

That's 8 shots on each weapon type, 5.3 hits for each.

Wound on 3's is 3.6 wounds for each.

Most guardian units have a few shield members to tank these sorts of shots, so against shields 1.2 wounds go through for each gun type. Each wound is a kill, 2.4 killed custodes, or a 112 - 168 return or 41% - 62% of the unit costs.

If the above unit moved, it drops to 1.8 dead custodes.

Actually it's okay Marines have a strategum to make units count as not moving,
The MultiMelta I think makes sence as they can shoot them twice Not sure that the heavy melta rifles make sence.
Take your chief apoch and that 6 man unit can have a 6+ FNP 3 wounds healed per turn and 1 model for 0CP
Not a bad brick wall of a unit especially if combined with some Agressors thats quite a death ball.

All good and well but if you spend CP for them to count as stationary it's fair for custodes to pay the CP to make them wound on 4's as well.

Likewise the custodes could be applying a -1 to hit from a banner which then negates the marine strat. The point is simply put they don't care about eradicators firing at their infantry, it's eradicators least efficient target.... well beyond cheap horde infantry anyway.

Dudeface wrote:

stratigo wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Nitro Zeus wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wow, this is almost as bad as the Castellan Apologists that 8th had....Space Marines aren't broken!!! You Can't nerf them! Seriously, every time the hot new thing gets a unanimously decreed broken thing, the hordes come out to say it's not broken. Can anyone honestly provide a justification for Eradicators not getting a nerf?

Careful. You’ll have dudeface and friends on your case in a second. Honest analysis? they no likey your kind around here, it’s all about downplaying your own personal collection because what’s better than easy mode, when you’re a terrible player?

Wow you managed to make a direct insult in under 3k words, much improved.

But no Fezzik, multiple people showed that custodes aren't vulnerable to Eradicators, the only unit you complained about and they do need a nerf. But not against custodes, they're fine.

Multiple people are wrong.

Eradicators make back their points in a single shooting phase in half range against every custodes unit, unless said unit is using CP for self defense.

OK, let's try this out.

270 points of eradicators, 4 heavy and 2 multimelta. They have to get to half range, so they moved in reality. Let's pretend they didn't and magically appeared 12 inches away.

That's 8 shots on each weapon type, 5.3 hits for each.

Wound on 3's is 3.6 wounds for each.

Most guardian units have a few shield members to tank these sorts of shots, so against shields 1.2 wounds go through for each gun type. Each wound is a kill, 2.4 killed custodes, or a 112 - 168 return or 41% - 62% of the unit costs.

If the above unit moved, it drops to 1.8 dead custodes.

Granted they kill 3 of whatever 4++ unit they fire at, it is likely they kill a unit of 3 bikes and make back 285 points in return, that's the only time that unit can manage it and requires the heavy rifles, be within 12" and not move.

Yes, if you shoot at absolutely the worst unit to shoot at for no purpose because no custodes player is taking naught but guardians, they don't make their points back. Mein gott!

Or, in reality, they are shooting at terminators or bikes and 3 kill almost 2 bikes or terminators a turn, without having to move because custodes are coming to you. This is before any buffs on either side are considered. Custodes can be minus 1, and can pop transhuman, while eradicators can be full reroll hits, reroll ones to wound, and even plus one to hit. Which further skews the benefit to eradicators of course, even in just the common buffs.

Heavy eradicators don't even need to get close to kill a custodian most of the time, but the MM loses efficiency here. But you can never move the unit and inflict quite a lot of attrition from range while custodes move up doing extremely minimal damage until they are in melee, and then get your buffed damage when custodes move into range. Which they have to do, because it's a melee army. Unless you're just a bad player and don't have your heavy eradicators covering objectives, but that's on you.

stratigo wrote:

Spoiler:

Dudeface wrote:

stratigo wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Nitro Zeus wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wow, this is almost as bad as the Castellan Apologists that 8th had....Space Marines aren't broken!!! You Can't nerf them! Seriously, every time the hot new thing gets a unanimously decreed broken thing, the hordes come out to say it's not broken. Can anyone honestly provide a justification for Eradicators not getting a nerf?

Careful. You’ll have dudeface and friends on your case in a second. Honest analysis? they no likey your kind around here, it’s all about downplaying your own personal collection because what’s better than easy mode, when you’re a terrible player?

Wow you managed to make a direct insult in under 3k words, much improved.

But no Fezzik, multiple people showed that custodes aren't vulnerable to Eradicators, the only unit you complained about and they do need a nerf. But not against custodes, they're fine.

Multiple people are wrong.

Eradicators make back their points in a single shooting phase in half range against every custodes unit, unless said unit is using CP for self defense.

OK, let's try this out.

270 points of eradicators, 4 heavy and 2 multimelta. They have to get to half range, so they moved in reality. Let's pretend they didn't and magically appeared 12 inches away.

That's 8 shots on each weapon type, 5.3 hits for each.

Wound on 3's is 3.6 wounds for each.

Most guardian units have a few shield members to tank these sorts of shots, so against shields 1.2 wounds go through for each gun type. Each wound is a kill, 2.4 killed custodes, or a 112 - 168 return or 41% - 62% of the unit costs.

If the above unit moved, it drops to 1.8 dead custodes.

Granted they kill 3 of whatever 4++ unit they fire at, it is likely they kill a unit of 3 bikes and make back 285 points in return, that's the only time that unit can manage it and requires the heavy rifles, be within 12" and not move.

Yes, if you shoot at absolutely the worst unit to shoot at for no purpose because no custodes player is taking naught but guardians, they don't make their points back. Mein gott!

Or, in reality, they are shooting at terminators or bikes and 3 kill almost 2 bikes or terminators a turn, without having to move because custodes are coming to you. This is before any buffs on either side are considered. Custodes can be minus 1, and can pop transhuman, while eradicators can be full reroll hits, reroll ones to wound, and even plus one to hit. Which further skews the benefit to eradicators of course, even in just the common buffs.

Heavy eradicators don't even need to get close to kill a custodian most of the time, but the MM loses efficiency here. But you can never move the unit and inflict quite a lot of attrition from range while custodes move up doing extremely minimal damage until they are in melee, and then get your buffed damage when custodes move into range. Which they have to do, because it's a melee army. Unless you're just a bad player and don't have your heavy eradicators covering objectives, but that's on you.

That's pure fallacy, 3 eradicators, stood still with heavy rifles (135 points) shooting at a unit of bikes, fire 6 shots, 4 hit, 2.7 wound, half saved, 1.35 dead bikes at 24". Likely 1 dead at a 95pt return, which is still good but hardly that dramatic. But terminators don't waddle up the field, if bikes are out in the open and in range then either A your opponent is bad or B your eradicators die next run after killing 1 bike.

Plus you discredit my choice of unit to fire at when your claim was

Eradicators make back their points in a single shooting phase in half range against every custodes unit

Eradicators need a nerf, nobody is disputing that, but custodes are the last people who should be crying about them.

Dudeface wrote:

stratigo wrote:

Spoiler:

Dudeface wrote:

stratigo wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Nitro Zeus wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wow, this is almost as bad as the Castellan Apologists that 8th had....Space Marines aren't broken!!! You Can't nerf them! Seriously, every time the hot new thing gets a unanimously decreed broken thing, the hordes come out to say it's not broken. Can anyone honestly provide a justification for Eradicators not getting a nerf?

Careful. You’ll have dudeface and friends on your case in a second. Honest analysis? they no likey your kind around here, it’s all about downplaying your own personal collection because what’s better than easy mode, when you’re a terrible player?

Wow you managed to make a direct insult in under 3k words, much improved.

But no Fezzik, multiple people showed that custodes aren't vulnerable to Eradicators, the only unit you complained about and they do need a nerf. But not against custodes, they're fine.

Multiple people are wrong.

Eradicators make back their points in a single shooting phase in half range against every custodes unit, unless said unit is using CP for self defense.

OK, let's try this out.

270 points of eradicators, 4 heavy and 2 multimelta. They have to get to half range, so they moved in reality. Let's pretend they didn't and magically appeared 12 inches away.

That's 8 shots on each weapon type, 5.3 hits for each.

Wound on 3's is 3.6 wounds for each.

Most guardian units have a few shield members to tank these sorts of shots, so against shields 1.2 wounds go through for each gun type. Each wound is a kill, 2.4 killed custodes, or a 112 - 168 return or 41% - 62% of the unit costs.

If the above unit moved, it drops to 1.8 dead custodes.

Granted they kill 3 of whatever 4++ unit they fire at, it is likely they kill a unit of 3 bikes and make back 285 points in return, that's the only time that unit can manage it and requires the heavy rifles, be within 12" and not move.

Yes, if you shoot at absolutely the worst unit to shoot at for no purpose because no custodes player is taking naught but guardians, they don't make their points back. Mein gott!

Or, in reality, they are shooting at terminators or bikes and 3 kill almost 2 bikes or terminators a turn, without having to move because custodes are coming to you. This is before any buffs on either side are considered. Custodes can be minus 1, and can pop transhuman, while eradicators can be full reroll hits, reroll ones to wound, and even plus one to hit. Which further skews the benefit to eradicators of course, even in just the common buffs.

Heavy eradicators don't even need to get close to kill a custodian most of the time, but the MM loses efficiency here. But you can never move the unit and inflict quite a lot of attrition from range while custodes move up doing extremely minimal damage until they are in melee, and then get your buffed damage when custodes move into range. Which they have to do, because it's a melee army. Unless you're just a bad player and don't have your heavy eradicators covering objectives, but that's on you.

That's pure fallacy, 3 eradicators, stood still with heavy rifles (135 points) shooting at a unit of bikes, fire 6 shots, 4 hit, 2.7 wound, half saved, 1.35 dead bikes at 24". Likely 1 dead at a 95pt return, which is still good but hardly that dramatic. But terminators don't waddle up the field, if bikes are out in the open and in range then either A your opponent is bad or B your eradicators die next run after killing 1 bike.

Eradicators need a nerf, nobody is disputing that, but custodes are the last people who should be crying about them.

eradicators are amazing at killing custodes, just like they are amazing at killing all other heavy infantry in the game. They are, again, making their points back at half range, in shooting, against most custodes units. Custodes being an army that's sold on their toughness.

Also, yes you mathed out my point, but apparently your reading comprehension flubbed. A custodian is a single custodes model. At max range, 2 heavy and one MM still kill 1 custodian a turn, for attrition, before the custodes army is in range to respond.

Custodes terminators dropping in, of course, give eradicators a free shooting phase, so you're not losing any efficiency here at all, you still get an extra turn of eradicator shots. If you aren't reserving them for a counter punch, which you should depending on how hard the custodes player is leaning into terminators. If half his army is in deep strike, then 10 to 20 percent of your army can safely out wait the custodes, since a custodes player can't afford to fight a marine army with only half their own verse 80 percent of the marines. 2 units of reserved eradicators will pop in and often cripple a terminator unit and a custode's players plans. And here's the thing, custodes terminators can and will waddle up the field if it's in the player's interest. You'd have to see the composition of the marine list you're playing against to make that decision.

Bikes have the issue of almost always starting on the board, since the limit of 50 percent power level is still in place and you don't want to cut into your terminators too hard, they remain the stars of the army. Meaning they will have trouble getting anywhere near eradicators that start on the board, which often don't need to at all. Indeed against competitive custodes, you probably shouldn't, custodes do have forgeworld shooting assets good enough to kill eradicators at range. Indeed the very best custodes list is, sadly, looking to be tanks and the ares for performance. Which, luckily, eradicators are also really good at killing after they pop in from reserves.

Dudeface wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

OK, let's try this out.

270 points of eradicators, 4 heavy and 2 multimelta. They have to get to half range, so they moved in reality. Let's pretend they didn't and magically appeared 12 inches away.

That's 8 shots on each weapon type, 5.3 hits for each.

Wound on 3's is 3.6 wounds for each.

Most guardian units have a few shield members to tank these sorts of shots, so against shields 1.2 wounds go through for each gun type. Each wound is a kill, 2.4 killed custodes, or a 112 - 168 return or 41% - 62% of the unit costs.

If the above unit moved, it drops to 1.8 dead custodes.

Actually it's okay Marines have a strategum to make units count as not moving,
The MultiMelta I think makes sence as they can shoot them twice Not sure that the heavy melta rifles make sence.
Take your chief apoch and that 6 man unit can have a 6+ FNP 3 wounds healed per turn and 1 model for 0CP
Not a bad brick wall of a unit especially if combined with some Agressors thats quite a death ball.

All good and well but if you spend CP for them to count as stationary it's fair for custodes to pay the CP to make them wound on 4's as well.

Likewise the custodes could be applying a -1 to hit from a banner which then negates the marine strat. The point is simply put they don't care about eradicators firing at their infantry, it's eradicators least efficient target.... well beyond cheap horde infantry anyway.

I I totally agree Custodes are the least effected by eradicators after probably Harliquines becuase 1w 4++.

But yeah my Crisis suits, stealth suits are definataly not going to be cry for custodes who hand over less points per volly than them.

But at the same time the fact that an anti vehical unit can achieve anything like such a return on infantry shows how insanely cheap they are.

stratigo wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

stratigo wrote:

Spoiler:

Dudeface wrote:

stratigo wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Nitro Zeus wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wow, this is almost as bad as the Castellan Apologists that 8th had....Space Marines aren't broken!!! You Can't nerf them! Seriously, every time the hot new thing gets a unanimously decreed broken thing, the hordes come out to say it's not broken. Can anyone honestly provide a justification for Eradicators not getting a nerf?

Careful. You’ll have dudeface and friends on your case in a second. Honest analysis? they no likey your kind around here, it’s all about downplaying your own personal collection because what’s better than easy mode, when you’re a terrible player?

Wow you managed to make a direct insult in under 3k words, much improved.

But no Fezzik, multiple people showed that custodes aren't vulnerable to Eradicators, the only unit you complained about and they do need a nerf. But not against custodes, they're fine.

Multiple people are wrong.

Eradicators make back their points in a single shooting phase in half range against every custodes unit, unless said unit is using CP for self defense.

OK, let's try this out.

270 points of eradicators, 4 heavy and 2 multimelta. They have to get to half range, so they moved in reality. Let's pretend they didn't and magically appeared 12 inches away.

That's 8 shots on each weapon type, 5.3 hits for each.

Wound on 3's is 3.6 wounds for each.

Most guardian units have a few shield members to tank these sorts of shots, so against shields 1.2 wounds go through for each gun type. Each wound is a kill, 2.4 killed custodes, or a 112 - 168 return or 41% - 62% of the unit costs.

If the above unit moved, it drops to 1.8 dead custodes.

Granted they kill 3 of whatever 4++ unit they fire at, it is likely they kill a unit of 3 bikes and make back 285 points in return, that's the only time that unit can manage it and requires the heavy rifles, be within 12" and not move.

Yes, if you shoot at absolutely the worst unit to shoot at for no purpose because no custodes player is taking naught but guardians, they don't make their points back. Mein gott!

Or, in reality, they are shooting at terminators or bikes and 3 kill almost 2 bikes or terminators a turn, without having to move because custodes are coming to you. This is before any buffs on either side are considered. Custodes can be minus 1, and can pop transhuman, while eradicators can be full reroll hits, reroll ones to wound, and even plus one to hit. Which further skews the benefit to eradicators of course, even in just the common buffs.

Heavy eradicators don't even need to get close to kill a custodian most of the time, but the MM loses efficiency here. But you can never move the unit and inflict quite a lot of attrition from range while custodes move up doing extremely minimal damage until they are in melee, and then get your buffed damage when custodes move into range. Which they have to do, because it's a melee army. Unless you're just a bad player and don't have your heavy eradicators covering objectives, but that's on you.

That's pure fallacy, 3 eradicators, stood still with heavy rifles (135 points) shooting at a unit of bikes, fire 6 shots, 4 hit, 2.7 wound, half saved, 1.35 dead bikes at 24". Likely 1 dead at a 95pt return, which is still good but hardly that dramatic. But terminators don't waddle up the field, if bikes are out in the open and in range then either A your opponent is bad or B your eradicators die next run after killing 1 bike.

Eradicators need a nerf, nobody is disputing that, but custodes are the last people who should be crying about them.

eradicators are amazing at killing custodes, just like they are amazing at killing all other heavy infantry in the game. They are, again, making their points back at half range, in shooting, against most custodes units. Custodes being an army that's sold on their toughness.

Also, yes you mathed out my point, but apparently your reading comprehension flubbed. A custodian is a single custodes model. At max range, 2 heavy and one MM still kill 1 custodian a turn, for attrition, before the custodes army is in range to respond.

Custodes terminators dropping in, of course, give eradicators a free shooting phase, so you're not losing any efficiency here at all, you still get an extra turn of eradicator shots. If you aren't reserving them for a counter punch, which you should depending on how hard the custodes player is leaning into terminators. If half his army is in deep strike, then 10 to 20 percent of your army can safely out wait the custodes, since a custodes player can't afford to fight a marine army with only half their own verse 80 percent of the marines. 2 units of reserved eradicators will pop in and often cripple a terminator unit and a custode's players plans. And here's the thing, custodes terminators can and will waddle up the field if it's in the player's interest. You'd have to see the composition of the marine list you're playing against to make that decision.

Bikes have the issue of almost always starting on the board, since the limit of 50 percent power level is still in place and you don't want to cut into your terminators too hard, they remain the stars of the army. Meaning they will have trouble getting anywhere near eradicators that start on the board, which often don't need to at all. Indeed against competitive custodes, you probably shouldn't, custodes do have forgeworld shooting assets good enough to kill eradicators at range. Indeed the very best custodes list is, sadly, looking to be tanks and the ares for performance. Which, luckily, eradicators are also really good at killing after they pop in from reserves.

I'll walk away, you're all over the shop. You opened claiming eradicators make their points back in a single shooting phase against any custodes unit. I mathematically proved that's wrong, repeatedly and now the world is ending because 120pts kill 1 56 point model a turn. They're also in reserves, starting on the board, have full LoS without moving and you walk terminators up the board wondering why they got shot and can't somehow deploy more than 24" away with your 14" movement bikes.

Dudeface wrote:

stratigo wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

stratigo wrote:

Spoiler:

Dudeface wrote:

stratigo wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Nitro Zeus wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wow, this is almost as bad as the Castellan Apologists that 8th had....Space Marines aren't broken!!! You Can't nerf them! Seriously, every time the hot new thing gets a unanimously decreed broken thing, the hordes come out to say it's not broken. Can anyone honestly provide a justification for Eradicators not getting a nerf?

Careful. You’ll have dudeface and friends on your case in a second. Honest analysis? they no likey your kind around here, it’s all about downplaying your own personal collection because what’s better than easy mode, when you’re a terrible player?

Wow you managed to make a direct insult in under 3k words, much improved.

But no Fezzik, multiple people showed that custodes aren't vulnerable to Eradicators, the only unit you complained about and they do need a nerf. But not against custodes, they're fine.

Multiple people are wrong.

Eradicators make back their points in a single shooting phase in half range against every custodes unit, unless said unit is using CP for self defense.

OK, let's try this out.

270 points of eradicators, 4 heavy and 2 multimelta. They have to get to half range, so they moved in reality. Let's pretend they didn't and magically appeared 12 inches away.

That's 8 shots on each weapon type, 5.3 hits for each.

Wound on 3's is 3.6 wounds for each.

Most guardian units have a few shield members to tank these sorts of shots, so against shields 1.2 wounds go through for each gun type. Each wound is a kill, 2.4 killed custodes, or a 112 - 168 return or 41% - 62% of the unit costs.

If the above unit moved, it drops to 1.8 dead custodes.

Granted they kill 3 of whatever 4++ unit they fire at, it is likely they kill a unit of 3 bikes and make back 285 points in return, that's the only time that unit can manage it and requires the heavy rifles, be within 12" and not move.

Yes, if you shoot at absolutely the worst unit to shoot at for no purpose because no custodes player is taking naught but guardians, they don't make their points back. Mein gott!

Or, in reality, they are shooting at terminators or bikes and 3 kill almost 2 bikes or terminators a turn, without having to move because custodes are coming to you. This is before any buffs on either side are considered. Custodes can be minus 1, and can pop transhuman, while eradicators can be full reroll hits, reroll ones to wound, and even plus one to hit. Which further skews the benefit to eradicators of course, even in just the common buffs.

Heavy eradicators don't even need to get close to kill a custodian most of the time, but the MM loses efficiency here. But you can never move the unit and inflict quite a lot of attrition from range while custodes move up doing extremely minimal damage until they are in melee, and then get your buffed damage when custodes move into range. Which they have to do, because it's a melee army. Unless you're just a bad player and don't have your heavy eradicators covering objectives, but that's on you.

That's pure fallacy, 3 eradicators, stood still with heavy rifles (135 points) shooting at a unit of bikes, fire 6 shots, 4 hit, 2.7 wound, half saved, 1.35 dead bikes at 24". Likely 1 dead at a 95pt return, which is still good but hardly that dramatic. But terminators don't waddle up the field, if bikes are out in the open and in range then either A your opponent is bad or B your eradicators die next run after killing 1 bike.

Eradicators need a nerf, nobody is disputing that, but custodes are the last people who should be crying about them.

eradicators are amazing at killing custodes, just like they are amazing at killing all other heavy infantry in the game. They are, again, making their points back at half range, in shooting, against most custodes units. Custodes being an army that's sold on their toughness.

Also, yes you mathed out my point, but apparently your reading comprehension flubbed. A custodian is a single custodes model. At max range, 2 heavy and one MM still kill 1 custodian a turn, for attrition, before the custodes army is in range to respond.

Custodes terminators dropping in, of course, give eradicators a free shooting phase, so you're not losing any efficiency here at all, you still get an extra turn of eradicator shots. If you aren't reserving them for a counter punch, which you should depending on how hard the custodes player is leaning into terminators. If half his army is in deep strike, then 10 to 20 percent of your army can safely out wait the custodes, since a custodes player can't afford to fight a marine army with only half their own verse 80 percent of the marines. 2 units of reserved eradicators will pop in and often cripple a terminator unit and a custode's players plans. And here's the thing, custodes terminators can and will waddle up the field if it's in the player's interest. You'd have to see the composition of the marine list you're playing against to make that decision.

Bikes have the issue of almost always starting on the board, since the limit of 50 percent power level is still in place and you don't want to cut into your terminators too hard, they remain the stars of the army. Meaning they will have trouble getting anywhere near eradicators that start on the board, which often don't need to at all. Indeed against competitive custodes, you probably shouldn't, custodes do have forgeworld shooting assets good enough to kill eradicators at range. Indeed the very best custodes list is, sadly, looking to be tanks and the ares for performance. Which, luckily, eradicators are also really good at killing after they pop in from reserves.

I'll walk away, you're all over the shop. You opened claiming eradicators make their points back in a single shooting phase against any custodes unit. I mathematically proved that's wrong, repeatedly and now the world is ending because 120pts kill 1 56 point model a turn. They're also in reserves, starting on the board, have full LoS without moving and you walk terminators up the board wondering why they got shot and can't somehow deploy more than 24" away with your 14" movement bikes.

You see, when thinking about the effectiveness of a unit, you need to think about the situations it's going to be in. This is important for winning games. I'll be charitable and assume you know this and are just arguing in bad faith rather than being a fool.

Though your reading comprehension needs work. You know that the damage of meltas go up the closer you are right? Yes? This is important for killing custodes. A heavy squad in 3s (because they are so efficient you will never have a squad of 6 together, it's massive overkill and waste for almost anything they shoot at, and they can combat squad if you feel you need more heavy slots) will have 4 d6+2 shots and 4 d6 shots, because you'd be crazy to not take a multimelta. That shifts the math down low enough that over 12 inches, it kills just over one custodes model and not almost 2. Get it? Or do I need to explain this in more depth? It's not that hard.

stratigo wrote:

You see, when thinking about the effectiveness of a unit, you need to think about the situations it's going to be in. This is important for winning games. I'll be charitable and assume you know this and are just arguing in bad faith rather than being a fool.

Though your reading comprehension needs work. You know that the damage of meltas go up the closer you are right? Yes? This is important for killing custodes. A heavy squad in 3s (because they are so efficient you will never have a squad of 6 together, it's massive overkill and waste for almost anything they shoot at, and they can combat squad if you feel you need more heavy slots) will have 4 d6+2 shots and 4 d6 shots, because you'd be crazy to not take a multimelta. That shifts the math down low enough that over 12 inches, it kills just over one custodes model and not almost 2. Get it? Or do I need to explain this in more depth? It's not that hard.

You:

Eradicators make back their points in a single shooting phase in half range against every custodes unit

and again:

They are, again, making their points back at half range, in shooting, against most custodes units.

Also you:

Also, yes you mathed out my point, but apparently your reading comprehension flubbed. A custodian is a single custodes model.

How is my reading comprehension so wrong when you move goal posts so regularly?

Lets spin this around, find a scenario for me where a unit of 3 eradicators makes more than their points back against bikes or terminators in half range in a single round as per your initial claim.