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I just don't get this idea that a 135 point killing a 95 point *isn't that dramatic*.

Pls GW, can I have my 70% return on stuff? *Big eyes sad face*

Tyel wrote:
I just don't get this idea that a 135 point killing a 95 point *isn't that dramatic*.

Pls GW, can I have my 70% return on stuff? *Big eyes sad face*

Oh it's far too good, but it's not the claims of "omg they make my army obsolete" that was being initially lobbied.

Dudeface wrote:

Tyel wrote:
I just don't get this idea that a 135 point killing a 95 point *isn't that dramatic*.

Pls GW, can I have my 70% return on stuff? *Big eyes sad face*

Oh it's far too good, but it's not the claims of "omg they make my army obsolete" that was being initially lobbied.

I think it depends on the arena you're playing them in.

Is this a player who regularly brings custodes to tournaments?

They sure as heck might. I have absolutely 0 doubt that 12-18 eradicator lists are going to be running around in a fairly short amount of time. You can take a lot of them, and theyr'e extremely flexible thanks to combat squadding. People were already regularly bringing 9 and basically only bringing less because of the inefficient use of HS slots. Now that a ton of SM HS choices are nuked and erads are buffed to high heaven, units of 6 for 240-260 are going to be about as ubiquitous as Wraithknights in 7th.

the_scotsman wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Tyel wrote:
I just don't get this idea that a 135 point killing a 95 point *isn't that dramatic*.

Pls GW, can I have my 70% return on stuff? *Big eyes sad face*

Oh it's far too good, but it's not the claims of "omg they make my army obsolete" that was being initially lobbied.

I think it depends on the arena you're playing them in.

Is this a player who regularly brings custodes to tournaments?

They sure as heck might. I have absolutely 0 doubt that 12-18 eradicator lists are going to be running around in a fairly short amount of time. You can take a lot of them, and theyr'e extremely flexible thanks to combat squadding. People were already regularly bringing 9 and basically only bringing less because of the inefficient use of HS slots. Now that a ton of SM HS choices are nuked and erads are buffed to high heaven, units of 6 for 240-260 are going to be about as ubiquitous as Wraithknights in 7th.

It'll be a problem for everyone, but again, this discussion stemmed from the claim they made units of custodes go poof by looking at them. You yourself said otherwise previously.

I find it frustrating because they're obviously a problem, but waving arms around trying to make absurd claims and stretching truths about something that is obviously an issue isn't helping. Not directed at yourself, you've been very fair.

Dudeface wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Tyel wrote:
I just don't get this idea that a 135 point killing a 95 point *isn't that dramatic*.

Pls GW, can I have my 70% return on stuff? *Big eyes sad face*

Oh it's far too good, but it's not the claims of "omg they make my army obsolete" that was being initially lobbied.

I think it depends on the arena you're playing them in.

Is this a player who regularly brings custodes to tournaments?

They sure as heck might. I have absolutely 0 doubt that 12-18 eradicator lists are going to be running around in a fairly short amount of time. You can take a lot of them, and theyr'e extremely flexible thanks to combat squadding. People were already regularly bringing 9 and basically only bringing less because of the inefficient use of HS slots. Now that a ton of SM HS choices are nuked and erads are buffed to high heaven, units of 6 for 240-260 are going to be about as ubiquitous as Wraithknights in 7th.

It'll be a problem for everyone, but again, this discussion stemmed from the claim they made units of custodes go poof by looking at them. You yourself said otherwise previously.

I find it frustrating because they're obviously a problem, but waving arms around trying to make absurd claims and stretching truths about something that is obviously an issue isn't helping. Not directed at yourself, you've been very fair.

True. I guess I'm just pointing out the claim of 'my army is invalidated' has multiple meanings in different contexts.

Obviously like any strong SM unit, Eradicators have become much much more common much faster than any powerful unit from pretty much any other faction where I play, but in general the lists are still pretty dang casual. No matter what the list setup is, you're basically guaranteed to be up against exactly 1 unit of 3 eradicators that the player got from the new starter box and is excited to have painted up, and they're gonna be from a randomly-chosen chapter.

In that context, they're pretty manageable for the most part. You're fairly certain to have some massively underpowered unit like a Repulsor on the table more than offsetting their presence.

Voss wrote:

Also ATSNKF has changed. No longer a reroll, just 'ignore modifiers on combat attrition tests.' (-1 for half strength, for example).
Its a weird stealth change that may not matter other than the need to remind to people that you don't reroll that.

It makes marines actually care about morale bit more. As it is I think I saw marines fail test once all 8e ed. The ATSKNF might just as well been written "ignore morale"

tneva82 wrote:

Voss wrote:

Also ATSNKF has changed. No longer a reroll, just 'ignore modifiers on combat attrition tests.' (-1 for half strength, for example).
Its a weird stealth change that may not matter other than the need to remind to people that you don't reroll that.

It makes marines actually care about morale bit more. As it is I think I saw marines fail test once all 8e ed. The ATSKNF might just as well been written "ignore morale"

Yeah, it makes morale, at least in theory, a tool you can leverage at Astartes through LD modifiers.

Mind you, I think the major usefulness of this is likely to be a bit short-lived, as the armies who can really crack the whip and summon up -5LD in an aura on demand are likely to see a lot of those -LD abilities become -Attrition abilities which astartes now helpfully ignore (Guess we didn't learn our lesson about how if you include a mechanic that astartes ignore in your game, you might as well not include that mechanic because astartes are at any time approximately 30-50% of the playerbase. Remember Sweeping Advance, that mechanic that happened ever?)

But for now, a ld-bomb setup using souped harlequins and craftworlds might be something you can pull against an astartes gunblob and pull out some suprisingly nasty bodycounts.

Hemlock+Blitzing Silent Shroud solitaire with the mask of secrets then pepper the gunline with firepower to remove 1-2 models from each squad, and you can knock off 1-2 extra models from each squad for freebies.

the_scotsman wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Voss wrote:

Also ATSNKF has changed. No longer a reroll, just 'ignore modifiers on combat attrition tests.' (-1 for half strength, for example).
Its a weird stealth change that may not matter other than the need to remind to people that you don't reroll that.

It makes marines actually care about morale bit more. As it is I think I saw marines fail test once all 8e ed. The ATSKNF might just as well been written "ignore morale"

Yeah, it makes morale, at least in theory, a tool you can leverage at Astartes through LD modifiers.

Mind you, I think the major usefulness of this is likely to be a bit short-lived, as the armies who can really crack the whip and summon up -5LD in an aura on demand are likely to see a lot of those -LD abilities become -Attrition abilities which astartes now helpfully ignore (Guess we didn't learn our lesson about how if you include a mechanic that astartes ignore in your game, you might as well not include that mechanic because astartes are at any time approximately 30-50% of the playerbase. Remember Sweeping Advance, that mechanic that happened ever?)

But for now, a ld-bomb setup using souped harlequins and craftworlds might be something you can pull against an astartes gunblob and pull out some suprisingly nasty bodycounts.

Hemlock+Blitzing Silent Shroud solitaire with the mask of secrets then pepper the gunline with firepower to remove 1-2 models from each squad, and you can knock off 1-2 extra models from each squad for freebies.

Unless you're facing DA who just won't care (and I expect to see more DA on the table now if their FAQ remains as is)

I love the revolving door of marine nerfs.

Ultramarines at least for the time being return to being the best chapter of marines. With Gman still giving full rerolls as well as a 12 inch reroll 1's aura for your non core units which for the most part are gonna be bs2+ anyways from a tech marine.

They will even have the best eradicators as you can buff multiple squads. It really wouldn't be a problem if eradicators weren't so bloody OP (they are even worse with these damn heavy melta rifles) but I am pretty certain that GW will just nerf GMan instead of eradicators. I can see it now - the endless bitching about how OP GMAN is when his rules literally haven't changed in 8 months and receiving the biggest nerf in 8th edition and an additional nerf in 9th with an increased points cost.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fimgflip.com%2Fi%2F1xa3er&psig=AOvVaw12KZi5_bzVmMWGg-CJfICq&ust=1602085217407000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAIQjRxqFwoTCOiA8tCmoOwCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAe

 Xenomancers wrote:
I love the revolving door of marine nerfs.

Ultramarines at least for the time being return to being the best chapter of marines. With Gman still giving full rerolls as well as a 12 inch reroll 1's aura for your non core units which for the most part are gonna be bs2+ anyways from a tech marine.

They will even have the best eradicators as you can buff multiple squads. It really wouldn't be a problem if eradicators weren't so bloody OP (they are even worse with these damn heavy melta rifles) but I am pretty certain that GW will just nerf GMan instead of eradicators.

DA are serious contenders.

Spoletta wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I love the revolving door of marine nerfs.

Ultramarines at least for the time being return to being the best chapter of marines. With Gman still giving full rerolls as well as a 12 inch reroll 1's aura for your non core units which for the most part are gonna be bs2+ anyways from a tech marine.

They will even have the best eradicators as you can buff multiple squads. It really wouldn't be a problem if eradicators weren't so bloody OP (they are even worse with these damn heavy melta rifles) but I am pretty certain that GW will just nerf GMan instead of eradicators.

DA are serious contenders.

For sure they have gotten insane buffs. Hitting on 2's just for standing still? Basically a blanket -1 to wound on all their terminators and terminator characters? Ultras can pretty much ignore that with a seal of oath and a +1 to wound litany. Good luck surviving against 18x2 meltas a turn with full rerolls to hit and 1's to wound. Reroll all wounds vs your best unit (seal of oath). Plus ignoring the heavy penalty while in tactical for the heavy rifle. This eradicators unit needs to be purged from existence.

It's not limited to terminators. Black knights too are Inner Circle.

But they aren't infantry.

Spoletta wrote:
It's not limited to terminators. Black knights too are Inner Circle.

Only infantry get the 'only wounded on 4+' aspect of the rule.

 generalchaos34 wrote:
I know that Eradicators are undercosted (no denying that) but at the same time they are still infantry and not exactly towers of invulnerability. They may be able to pop in and do some damage but that would be against one target. As a long time guard player I can say that they are certainly a threat but not one that is invincible. Hell a Leman Russ with HB sponsons has a fair chance to completely wipe them out. A few heavy weapon squads with autocannons can make a mess out of them. A single Helverin will make mince meat out of them. If they had a wound gimmick or an invuln I would certainly put them into mega cheese category. As they stand I would say they are more of a boogeyman than an actual threat compared to an IH leviathan dread was even 6 months ago (which would even today wipe them out in a single volley).

3 of them are 9 T5 wounds with a 3+ save. Easy access to 2+ cover or -1 to hit, easy access to FNP and the ability to heal wounds and bring back a dead model at full strength.

But assuming they are standing in the open like a bunch of muppets, it takes 9 dmg to kill them, bolters need 27 wounds to inflict 9 damage, to get 27 wounds they need 81 hits to get 81 hits they need 121-122 shots. Not exactly easy to do. If you hit them with Heavy bolters instead you need again 9 dmg, which is 6 HB going through armor, to get that you need 12 wounds you need 24 hits, to get 24 hits you need 36 shots. That is equivalent to 13 Heavy Bolters targeting a single unit. if you hit them with Autocannons or equivalent weapons (S7 -1AP 2dmg) you need 6 to go through armor which is 12 wounds, to get 12 wounds you need 18 hits, to get 18 hits you need 27 shots. So equivalent to 14ish Autocannons. All of this is factored using BS3 btw.

So yeah, they are literally as durable as most medium tanks/vehicles. And are MORE durable than light vehicles. Put them in cover, which is again very easy to do since they are infantry and its even worse. Add in the apothecary and the math is even more heavily skewed in their favor.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

So typically it'd take more than one squad to kill a T6/T7 5++. It makes me think of Orks. Ironically the hardest thing for Eradicators to kill might be Killa Kanz under a 5++

Which is wonderfully ironic because killa kanz are functionally useless. BS4 but can only take short ranged guns, either a 1 shot rokkit, a crappy big shoota, a skorcha (Heavy flamer) that didn't receive the recent buffs for flamers OR my personal favorite, the grotzooka that got nerfed into oblivion in 8th and is basically a 2d3 S6 gun with no AP and 1 dmg. averages 2 hits a turn at an amazingly long 18' range. They are S8 -3AP and 3Dmg with 3 attacks each in CC....but of course they are WS5 so they only average 1 hit a turn....but that means they actually got into CC....which would be interesting thanks to them being incredibly slow 6' no ability to charge after advancing unless you are also taking an almost as bad 125pt HQ choice. The cheapest variant is the 50pt Killa Kan with useless Big shoota, T5, 5W 3+ save. So if you have them under a Big Mekz KFF they take 3 eradicators with no buffs to kill 1 a turn, earning back about 42% of their price. Their return fire is basically ignorable. 3 of them w/BigMek KFF guarding them costs 225pts and they put out 9 S5 no AP 1 dmg shots a turn at BS4.

Good news everyone, deathwatch can take 30 eradicators if they so wished.

Tyel wrote:
I just don't get this idea that a 135 point killing a 95 point *isn't that dramatic*.

Pls GW, can I have my 70% return on stuff? *Big eyes sad face*

This idea of a return on points when you haven't killed the unit seems a little silly at times (it's fine with models, I suppose). I am guilty of it, too though.

But suppose Heavy Eradicators shoot a Valiant that kicks off Smokescreen (or doesn't if the Eradicators imposed their own penalty and do not avoid it) -- they do 8 wounds or 66% of 250 -- 165 points. A massive return, but the tank isn't out of play.

Certainly it is gimped, but a quick heal and boost from a Techmarine and it is hitting on 2s again. In fact that tank will remove -- 4.5 Eradicators in Heavy (about 4 otherwise). Given that it is M10 with no penalties there is little reason the Valiant shouldn't have the advantage of first shot. Meaning if the opponent fails to kill it then it will kill 8ish Eradticators for 360 points - a 72% return each turn.

Not exactly a fair comparison, I agree. Transhuman would likely come out so split-fire would be wise. The techmarine costs points so the Eradicators should have something. There's a tit-for-tat that can be endless in these discussions.

Point being - a model isn't dead until it is. Even on the middle bracket the Valiant can cause a ton of pain and there's way more to the game than "I put some Eradicators down and got some mad point efficiency".

 Xenomancers wrote:

For sure they have gotten insane buffs. Hitting on 2's just for standing still? Basically a blanket -1 to wound on all their terminators and terminator characters? Ultras can pretty much ignore that with a seal of oath and a +1 to wound litany. Good luck surviving against 18x2 meltas a turn with full rerolls to hit and 1's to wound. Reroll all wounds vs your best unit (seal of oath). Plus ignoring the heavy penalty while in tactical for the heavy rifle. This eradicators unit needs to be purged from existence.

Your +1 to wound litany does literally nothing against Deathwing unless you're shooting strength 3 or worse weaponry against them.

All unmodified wound rolls of 1-3 automatically fail, a roll of 4 is the absolute lowest you can roll to still wound.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I love the revolving door of marine nerfs.

Ultramarines at least for the time being return to being the best chapter of marines. With Gman still giving full rerolls as well as a 12 inch reroll 1's aura for your non core units which for the most part are gonna be bs2+ anyways from a tech marine.

They will even have the best eradicators as you can buff multiple squads. It really wouldn't be a problem if eradicators weren't so bloody OP (they are even worse with these damn heavy melta rifles) but I am pretty certain that GW will just nerf GMan instead of eradicators. I can see it now - the endless bitching about how OP GMAN is when his rules literally haven't changed in 8 months and receiving the biggest nerf in 8th edition and an additional nerf in 9th with an increased points cost.

GMan is a single model, chapter locked, and not even that recent (for SM standards). Eradicators are the shiny new toys. Makes sense that GW wants fo push them rather than GMan, they know that the blue superhero is not going to sell much now that lots of SM players have it and it's limited to 0-1 anyway.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Point being - a model isn't dead until it is. Even on the middle bracket the Valiant can cause a ton of pain and there's way more to the game than "I put some Eradicators down and got some mad point efficiency".

Its a fair point - and often I think gets skipped over into the world of magic "average hammer". Really what we are talking about is approximates - because in the reality of a game, dice will blow hot and cold.

The point is just that "hi there, on average dice this unit gets a 70% return" beats a comparable unit that gets say a 40%, or 25% return. Which to my mind is the range where most units reside.

There will always be issues with comparisons, actual gameplay etc - but it explains why say Eradicators are meta relevant, tournament winning list material - and say Crisis suits toting 3 fusion blasters... aren't. The crisis suits have lower range - but higher M and flying. They have lower BS, but can have 3 shots rather than 2.
But the crisis suit in this example is 75 points rather than the eradicator's 40. So his "return" on a similar damage expectation is much lower - while at 75 points, he's offering a far higher return to the enemy. In the round this should mean one unit is considerably better than the other - and so it would appear by looking at how it goes on the table.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

This idea of a return on points when you haven't killed the unit seems a little silly at times (it's fine with models, I suppose). I am guilty of it, too though.
But suppose Heavy Eradicators shoot a Valiant that kicks off Smokescreen (or doesn't if the Eradicators imposed their own penalty and do not avoid it) -- they do 8 wounds or 66% of 250 -- 165 points. A massive return, but the tank isn't out of play.
Certainly it is gimped, but a quick heal and boost from a Techmarine and it is hitting on 2s again. In fact that tank will remove -- 4.5 Eradicators in Heavy (about 4 otherwise). Given that it is M10 with no penalties there is little reason the Valiant shouldn't have the advantage of first shot. Meaning if the opponent fails to kill it then it will kill 8ish Eradticators for 360 points - a 72% return each turn.
Not exactly a fair comparison, I agree. Transhuman would likely come out so split-fire would be wise. The techmarine costs points so the Eradicators should have something. There's a tit-for-tat that can be endless in these discussions.
Point being - a model isn't dead until it is. Even on the middle bracket the Valiant can cause a ton of pain and there's way more to the game than "I put some Eradicators down and got some mad point efficiency".

That isn't a very fair comparison though. That Valiant is PL 13 so likely 260pts, and you have 135pts of eradicators shooting at it to "earn back" their points. plus a techmarine to repair it so it doesn't miss a bunch.

A 1 for 1 comparison wouldn't be 3 Heavy Eradicators plinking at it for 135pts, it would be 6 with heavies (lets not use any multis) for 270pts , thats about the same price, They do 12 shots without rerolls, they get 9 hits (6 if -1 to hit) for 4-5 wounds (3). They go through the armor so 4-5 = 3.5 x 4 = 14 without even adding in the +2 dmg per shot for the Heavy meltas. At -1 to hit they do 3x 3.5 for 10-11 add in the 3x2 and poof you just did 16-17 dmg. 1 Dead Valiant. So 1 round of shooting and they likely make back their points.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

For sure they have gotten insane buffs. Hitting on 2's just for standing still? Basically a blanket -1 to wound on all their terminators and terminator characters? Ultras can pretty much ignore that with a seal of oath and a +1 to wound litany. Good luck surviving against 18x2 meltas a turn with full rerolls to hit and 1's to wound. Reroll all wounds vs your best unit (seal of oath). Plus ignoring the heavy penalty while in tactical for the heavy rifle. This eradicators unit needs to be purged from existence.

Your +1 to wound litany does literally nothing against Deathwing unless you're shooting strength 3 or worse weaponry against them.

All unmodified wound rolls of 1-3 automatically fail, a roll of 4 is the absolute lowest you can roll to still wound.

You're missing his point.

He is saying that since they always have that on, you can plan for it. In your case, you will not shoot against terminators with the unit on which you chanted.

The stratagem instead can bite you out of nowhere. You chanted your unit? Then I will just use the stratagem on its target and negate your buff.

Spoletta wrote:

You're missing his point.

No I'm not, you're making an entirely new point that he didn't make that I didn't respond to for him.

Yeah, I read that like what the hell... that wasn't even remotely his point. Void Dragon's response that +1 to wound doesn't do much against Deathwings transhuman was completely valid response there.

I love how people are discussing how they are worried marines are going to deal with off-green marines...

And they tell me we aint in a marine meta and everything is back to normal

 Argive wrote:
I love how people are discussing how they are worried marines are going to deal with off-green marines...

And they tell me we aint in a marine meta and everything is back to normal

people have ALWAYS used Marines as a base standard. because everyone's familer with them. not much point in using a Xenos codex that none aside from a handful of dedicated diehards are familer with... ya know.. like Eldar

BrianDavion wrote:

 Argive wrote:
I love how people are discussing how they are worried marines are going to deal with off-green marines...

And they tell me we aint in a marine meta and everything is back to normal

people have ALWAYS used Marines as a base standard. because everyone's familer with them. not much point in using a Xenos codex that none aside from a handful of dedicated diehards are familer with... ya know.. like Eldar

And yet ya know.. there seem to have a problem when everyone holds up marines as a standard when that standard is off the charts.. funny that

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

You're missing his point.

No I'm not, you're making an entirely new point that he didn't make that I didn't respond to for him.

I got confused between two different threads...

Quick question. Can outrider sergeants take power Fists, thunder hammers etc etc?

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Quick question. Can outrider sergeants take power Fists, thunder hammers etc etc?

Nope - no options.

Got my Dex now - any other questions?