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Hi all,

So what with 9th ed coming out and a somewhat guarantee that everyone's getting a new book and some rebalance I thought I'd jump on the forum and bring up the Militarum Tempestus and where GW could take them (or where I'd like them to go personally more like). So with PA: The Greater Good making Scions a little more varied than just dudes that jump out of valks and plasma spam things to death and the potential for a new codex in the near future expanding on that I thought now's the time to start a bit of a wishlist. So I'll be putting on a few things I believe would fit the lore and flesh them out a little allowing us to see hopefully more pure scions (plus I'd like some new goodies for my pure scion force).

Things I'd like to see:

1) the current Tempestor Prime moved to elites and renamed "Tempestor Secundus" and replaced with a Prime HQ choice with a statline like the Lord Commissar with the refractor field and 2 orders base with the rod giving them the choice for a third order per turn. The reason I'd like to see this as currently we don't have tons of ways to get orders and with snipers receiving a boost it would make some sense that our command structure was a little more survivable and didn't give away VP's so easily plus, surely whilst life is cheap we can afford refractors for them (considering that company commanders get them). the added leadership and more sources would make losing a tempestor less brutal.

2) Tempestus Sentinels, this was an idea I was thinking about more and more as Scions are meant to be an elite rapid strike force, which currently lacks significant AT firepower (and a fast attack slot choice), they could be literally armoured sentinels with a 3+ bs or you could go whole hog and give them a volley-gun option and potentially deepstrike (we know it can be done the Elysian's have done it). This would give us a anti-tank option in the form of a lascannon (I know melta exists and we can take it but more options are always nice) or even a multi-melta. It give us a fast moving support unit to our already fast moving force.

3) Scion Support Squads a heavy support unit that is basically our equivalent to a weapons team in the normal guard, now this unit could be 2-man teams up to 3 in a unit that utilise "heavier" firepower to assist from slightly further back, I was personally thinking nothing like emplaced weapons but instead things that can be setup and stripped-down quickly like sniper rifles, mortars and a slightly newer addition the anti-material rifle which I was thinking would have a statline approximately like this: 48" Heavy 1(2?) S7 AP-2(3?) Dd3+1. My thoughts would be it's something like a WW1/2 antitank rifle but 40k'd up with a statline of an upgunned autocannon to represent armour-piercing rounds (like a HEAT round). this unit with these weapon options give me personally the Spec-ops vibes that I think GW were attempting with the Scions, the thought of an elite unit being supported by a sniper team or a mortar battery helping suppress the enemy so that they can close in to do the job seems within the aesthetic to me.

Those were the three big ones then I have a few minor changes that I'm not fully convinced or they aren't fully formulated in my head that I wanted to share with you guys:

1) Hot-shot laspistol being either being 9" or 12" range as the current 6" just does not do it for a relatively rubbish option
2) Melee scion squad with a form of shield and power maul option think riot police or that stormtrooper from force awakens, even maybe integrate a teargas equivalent
3) A scion armour, something like a hellhound but more sciony (I don't know think either an upgunned taurox with no transport or a hellhound with hot-shot volleyguns instead of flamers)
4) Medic upgrade for normal scion squads; not sure if this would be too op but Scions seem to be worth a little more than regular guard so maybe stopping them dying might be worthwhile?
5) optional deepstrike rule instead of baked in, it would give us more incentive to use tauroxes and the other stuff if implemented

So that's about it, what do you lovely people think?

Honestly I'd rather see scions stay as the supplementary force they are, and for the actual guard regiments to see an update.

while guard tanks are generally....OK looking? the infantry at this point is just atrocious, among the worst looking plastic in the game behind only Guardians in my book. They've got all the sins of old GW heroic-scaling, terribly sparse kits option-wise (you need to buy from 3 different kits to get all the options available for a guard squad...) and as of right now you can literally only purchase models for 2 regiments.

GW has done some INCREDIBLE things with human-scaled models with Necromunda, GSC, and Admech.

I can't imagine that the market segment for a given guard regiment is so small that they couldn't bear a couple of dual-purpose kits with headswaps to represent the various regiments.

Picture: An all-in-one guard infantry box that includes 12 bodies, with two being optionally buildable as a heavy weapon team or as extra guardsmen so that you can build a platcom/command squad models and still have a guardsman squad.

Each box comes with 2 sets of heads to represent 2 regiments. You've got:

-Standard Uniform Guard: Cadians and Valhallans

-Greatcoat Guard: Mordians and Steel Legion

-Deathworld Guard: Tallarn and Catachan

-Noble Guard: Vostroyans and new GEQ unit for Knight Houses!

Whilst I do agree that the standard Guard line is in desperate need of an update that isn't the purpose of this thread. The scions on initial release were a separate force (and yes I'm old enough to remember stormtroopers as an IG unit), in 9th edition it's a lot harder to field a pure scion force and that's what we're talking mainly about here

My bare minimum to be happy is a boltgun option so that my sergeants can be WYSIWYG.

I don't think Scions need a ton of additions model-wise. It's a limited line, but the flexibility of the core Scion squads allows them to deal with most threats. Being able to take Chimeras would be nice thematically.

As a standalone force, I'd like to see Scions explicitly specialize into the main three archetypes:
-Drop Troops
-Airborne
-Mechanized

Like, it always feels odd to me that you're paying for deep strike on models that end up going in a Taurox or Valkyrie. I'd personally prefer if putting Scions into deep strike were an upgrade, rather than a core part of the statline.

Then they could divide six subfactions among the three archetypes, giving you two subfaction choices to benefit each. You could still mix-and-match, but the subfactions would incentivize leaning into one of the deployment options.

If they went in that direction, then I could see some new models being useful. Maybe a Little Bird-esque vehicle for Airborne as a five-man transport option, airdropped sentry guns for Drop Troops, and... I don't know, just any other vehicle option for Mechanized.

Does bringing back the 3rd edition models count? Those are by far my favorite stormtrooper models that GW released.

Outside of that, and barring the "other guard infantry need refresh more" bit, I'd like to see more things leaning into their rapid insertion / rapid strike theme.

-Maybe a transport that looks better than the Taurox, even with wheels I'm not a fan of it. The vote for giving them back Chimera above is also something I wouldn't mind.

-A light vehicle or two that can move fast, possibly be deep striked, and can load a heavy weapon or two. Something designed to zoom around the board from cover to cover and try to light up an enemy unit. For lack of a better thought, think like the Warthog in Halo, a jeep that can either carry 5 guys, a heavy machine gun, or a rocket launcher.

-I'd be down with the senior commander, though honestly I think Tempestor Prime should just get the second order by default.

I'm not really seeing the melee idea for a scion squad personally. I'd say though one thing that could always be done is give the jobbers of a normal squad the ability to take melee weapons. I forget the exact specifics, but the kit comes with at least 1 of each melee option and has several hot shot lasguns that can be added to their stowage, so you still can have melee weapon and the base gun and be WYSIWYG.

kurhanik wrote:
-A light vehicle or two that can move fast, possibly be deep striked, and can load a heavy weapon or two. Something designed to zoom around the board from cover to cover and try to light up an enemy unit. For lack of a better thought, think like the Warthog in Halo, a jeep that can either carry 5 guys, a heavy machine gun, or a rocket launcher.

That actually existed for the Elysians, in the form of the Tauros and Tauros Venator buggies.




With Elysians unfortunately gone now, I'd be happy to see their niche of lightweight rapid insertion adopted by Scions.

I just want to be able to use Chimeras again with my Stormtroopers without having army construction issues.

I've played a Stormtrooper army of various sorts since 4th edition, and really there's not much stuff specific to them that I'd really like to see in terms of vehicles and equipment. They source all their stuff from the same place the rest of the Munitorum does, and a huge grip of Stormtrooper-unique vehicles just doesn't make much sense, they're not they're own faction the way Space Marines are. That said, in a lore sense, they do the same things Space Marines do (just not without the aid of power armor or genetic engineering), and trying to make a big grip of unique stuff for them would largely seem to just be retreading Space Marine tropes. I'm ok with them having a more limited selection of stuff.

That said, I've always had a fantasy of Stormtroopers matching their name a bit better, being actual shock assault infantry, and not deep strike plasma suicide squads sporting guns with AP they pay out the nose for but otherwise lack the range and weapon strength to do anything meaningful with (yeah...AP-2 on S3 18" Rapid Fire is...um...really not terribly functional). I've always really wanted to see Stormtroopers with something like an Assault 3 18" weapon (probably without the same level of AP as they have currently) and a couple CC attacks, allowing them to hose an enemy position with short range fire and...storm it, as a Stormtrooper should do.

How are they currently playing? Our Scions player moved away in 8th but at the time, they were very much a win big/lose big army IRRC. They could almost feel OP in one game and virtually useless the next. Is that accurate to how they are doing right now?

Tycho wrote:
How are they currently playing? Our Scions player moved away in 8th but at the time, they were very much a win big/lose big army IRRC. They could almost feel OP in one game and virtually useless the next. Is that accurate to how they are doing right now?

I would say that is accurate. The points changes in CA19 opened up some new options by making basic Scions cheap enough to be worthwhile as troops, but the hike back up with 9th means suicidal command squads are the way to go again. I try to compromise by using ten-man squads with four special weapons apiece.

So generally you'll deploy with some stuff on the table (either Tauroxes, or Scions with HSVGs for ranged support and backfield camping), then the really big deep strike attack hits T2 and you either take out enough to cripple the enemy before they can react, or you don't and then die horribly. Very swingy.

Hence why I would like the option to lean more into airdrop or mechanized. Deep Strike in 9th is too deterministic for it to be fun as an army-wide mechanic, IMO.

catbarf wrote:

Spoiler:

kurhanik wrote:
-A light vehicle or two that can move fast, possibly be deep striked, and can load a heavy weapon or two. Something designed to zoom around the board from cover to cover and try to light up an enemy unit. For lack of a better thought, think like the Warthog in Halo, a jeep that can either carry 5 guys, a heavy machine gun, or a rocket launcher.

That actually existed for the Elysians, in the form of the Tauros and Tauros Venator buggies.




With Elysians unfortunately gone now, I'd be happy to see their niche of lightweight rapid insertion adopted by Scions.

Damn those look nice and are basically exactly what I was thinking of.

Vaktathi wrote:I just want to be able to use Chimeras again with my Stormtroopers without having army construction issues.

I've played a Stormtrooper army of various sorts since 4th edition, and really there's not much stuff specific to them that I'd really like to see in terms of vehicles and equipment. They source all their stuff from the same place the rest of the Munitorum does, and a huge grip of Stormtrooper-unique vehicles just doesn't make much sense, they're not they're own faction the way Space Marines are. That said, in a lore sense, they do the same things Space Marines do (just not without the aid of power armor or genetic engineering), and trying to make a big grip of unique stuff for them would largely seem to just be retreading Space Marine tropes. I'm ok with them having a more limited selection of stuff.

That said, I've always had a fantasy of Stormtroopers matching their name a bit better, being actual shock assault infantry, and not deep strike plasma suicide squads sporting guns with AP they pay out the nose for but otherwise lack the range and weapon strength to do anything meaningful with (yeah...AP-2 on S3 18" Rapid Fire is...um...really not terribly functional). I've always really wanted to see Stormtroopers with something like an Assault 3 18" weapon (probably without the same level of AP as they have currently) and a couple CC attacks, allowing them to hose an enemy position with short range fire and...storm it, as a Stormtrooper should do.

Yeah, seeing Stormtroopers with those actual abilities could be nice. I dunno, making the gun Assault 2 and still AP -2 should still be fine, and then giving them an Attack stat of 2. Not like an extra S3 attack at WS 4+ is going to break the game. Then Tempestor Primes could gain access to more orders, a few ranged, and a few melee ones, on top of the base Imperial Guard orders. So depending on the circumstances you could say do the standard "do a melee attack now" order, or maybe an order to give the unit +2 Strength during their next fight phase, or -1 AP on their next fight phase, etc. Of course, the points for the Tempestor would have to go up to accommodate the extra orders, but it would allow for a more assault based use of the units without changing the datasheet overly much or splitting the unit into Ranged Scions and Attack Scions.

I don't want to sound awkward or whatever but the points I was making seem inline with some of the things you guys are wanting, I personally haven't really put much time into thinking about changing the basic gun as I'm happy where it is but I'm not seeing the need for a Chimera or other transport option as we have the basics with the Valk and Taurox.

My main thoughts are adding a couple of support units to the faction to allow for a more comprehensive playstyle, I do agree with the dropping of deepstrike to a bought option as that gives us greater flexibility. Again I've not really suggested any new vehicle, I'm talking a sentinel with HSVG attached and a support squad with heavy weapons, this is literally one new kit and an upgrade sprue, the tempestor prime/secundus idea gives more tactical flexibility which is kind of the scions trick and also based around reducing VP bleed from secondaries that target our HQs.

I kind of dig the idea of making them a little closer to the real-world stormtrooper concept, I just didn't want them to become too "Space Marine" by making them decent in melee alongside good shooting hence separate units but I'm happy either way.

I like the idea of some Elysian style vehicles, maybe another close air support option, and a couple character/HQ options.

For the character/HQ type, I'm thinking something on the more "disruptive" side of things for debuffing the enemy. Maybe something that infiltrates and reduces auras or gives a to-hit penalty to a unit or even a particular area of the battlefield. Could signify some operative using signal jamming or something, IDK. I just want a super high tech looking operative along the lines of the way the newer Assassin models look, but obviously with a Tempestus Scion vibe.

One of their current problems is durability, yet I don't want to up their statline. They're still humans and don't have power armor, after all. I'd rather they gain ways to be more durable by debuffing the opponent.

Quasistellar wrote:
I like the idea of some Elysian style vehicles, maybe another close air support option, and a couple character/HQ options.

For the character/HQ type, I'm thinking something on the more "disruptive" side of things for debuffing the enemy. Maybe something that infiltrates and reduces auras or gives a to-hit penalty to a unit or even a particular area of the battlefield. Could signify some operative using signal jamming or something, IDK. I just want a super high tech looking operative along the lines of the way the newer Assassin models look, but obviously with a Tempestus Scion vibe.

One of their current problems is durability, yet I don't want to up their statline. They're still humans and don't have power armor, after all. I'd rather they gain ways to be more durable by debuffing the opponent.

I find durability to be our problem as well, ours is not to hold the line, I really like your debuffer concept honestly. You could go down the route of different tricks like smoke grenades or an EMP style attack or something that prevents aura working properly. I'm really digging it, makes the scions work a little different instead of defensive buffs which some armies have and offensive buffs which others get scions going down the route of screwing with enemy cohesion.

More wishlisting than anything else, I'd like to see a return of inquisitorial stormtroopers.

Let Scions run as their distinct forces and remain functional on their own/with their newer faction identity, but use them as a base and fold in some of the Imperial hodgepodge (Rogue Traders, Inquisition, Assassins, other lighter forces), maybe even redesign it so they can conceptually accommodate Elysians as they're closer aesthetically to ST than regular IG.

It would take some more work, but it would allow Scions to have a cooler special forces vibe than just carapace armor goons plus vehicles. Since we have said goons, they might as well broaden to generally represent Imperials who are neither posthuman nor massed infantry.

I'm sorry, what use is a mass 18" S3 AP2 D1 army these days when everything is T5+ 3W and hits like a ton of bricks at 24"?

I really think with the way NuMarines are shaping up, things like Scions and any S3 armies are basically pointless. Unless you are running all Mech, even then still have the same problems. No if you made the Hellguns S4, AP1 D2, and standard las S4 AP 0 D1, you'd get something for the return. But We are now in the edition of Elite Deathstar armies. Two shots at 9" of S3 doesn't cut mustard anymore. Hell, it's not even good against Orks anymore.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
More wishlisting than anything else, I'd like to see a return of inquisitorial stormtroopers.

Let Scions run as their distinct forces and remain functional on their own/with their newer faction identity, but use them as a base and fold in some of the Imperial hodgepodge (Rogue Traders, Inquisition, Assassins, other lighter forces), maybe even redesign it so they can conceptually accommodate Elysians as they're closer aesthetically to ST than regular IG.

It would take some more work, but it would allow Scions to have a cooler special forces vibe than just carapace armor goons plus vehicles. Since we have said goons, they might as well broaden to generally represent Imperials who are neither posthuman nor massed infantry.

It's kind of the theme of my own Scion force, they're an Inquisitor's personal regiment that he uses for various missions or alongside other resources he can summon (I sometimes use an inquisitor or assassin in my lists and have a unit of crusaders made from scion parts and some third party stuff to represent a specialist unit that is a bodyguard unit for the inquisitor, alongside some headcannon that they also work as his agents when not in warzones) so I'm down for them to have options to include some of the more random parts of the imperium amongst them.

I'm sorry, what use is a mass 18" S3 AP2 D1 army these days when everything is T5+ 3W and hits like a ton of bricks at 24"?

I really think with the way NuMarines are shaping up, things like Scions and any S3 armies are basically pointless. Unless you are running all Mech, even then still have the same problems. No if you made the Hellguns S4, AP1 D2, and standard las S4 AP 0 D1, you'd get something for the return. But We are now in the edition of Elite Deathstar armies. Two shots at 9" of S3 doesn't cut mustard anymore. Hell, it's not even good against Orks anymore.

I think this kind of thinking is completely unrequired, bringing one unit from the new space marine codex and claiming it'll prevent us all playing the game is ridiculous IMHO, sure they're tough but nah they can be cancelled out with heavy plasma usage, everyone bar 'crons and marines are playing with 8th ed equipment we've already seen sweeping change and quite frankly it's mad to claim we're in deathstar edition considering it wasn't that long ago units ran up the board invisible and capable of destroying whole armies, that doesn't happen now so we're in a better place, plus I think that you need to stay on topic, coming in and proclaiming doom and gloom for non marine players isn't really bringing anything to this particular discussion thread

I'd delete all the finicky changes, and move the Tempestus Scion Squads back to the Elites slot (and swap Veterans back to Troops), move Tempestor Primes to take up an Elites slot, add their Command Squads as a free include for each Tempestor Prime in the army. Lose the PA regiments, just keep it back to basics with the Stormtroopers doctrine and we should be sweet, maybe add the old Clarion-Vox net rule from 7E?

Thank you for completely dodging my question and white knighting for a thread.

I'll ask again:

What good is RF S3 AP2 d1 shooting at 9"? What is that effective against? Hordes? What are they literally built for? They serve zero purpose. They cost more, shoot less, and do a worse job than regular guard dropped out of a valk. They are only good for Plasma murder squads, which you can't even build one of in a single box, because there are only 2 plasmas in the entire box. But hey, at least you get a lord commissar so your pointless infantry can ride around in their pointless truck, with an equally pointless model.

I mean, by design the scions are just an upgraded version of the standard guard model. Better armor, better ap, better BS. The more you stray from those core stat values the more they stray from their design purpose.

They get a handful of okay toys but it does feel they're slightly lacking in the spec ops angle. Maybe a specific valk equivalent. A helicopter comes to mind. Better weapons than a valk, maybe a bit slower but heavier armour. Smaller transport size to balance perhaps? Or perhaps nick the design of those gun drop pods. Just make them a bit smaller. Meant to clear out insertion points.

Maybe they need a tactics sort of trait like deathwatch. Fighting xenos get one buff, fighting astrates get an extra point of damage on 6s or something. They are meant to feel like the best fighters a standard human can be. Sent in when the space marines aren't quite called for but base guard squads just won't cut it. I like their design, I like their units, but it does feel like they're lacking one of two options before we can call them a full army in their own right.

Some of the big issues are more Guard issues in general than anything else. The S3 weapons, pistol ranges, etc. Book's a mess and has been for a loooong time.

-Tempestor Prime with a single Order works...if Clarion Vox-Network gets the Infiltrator Comms Array treatment. It allows for Phobos Lts and Captains to issue their auras boardwide, Tempestor Primes getting Clarion as a basic wargear piece would be a solid start. Hotshot(and standard for the <Regiment> but that's neither here nor there) lasguns for them would be a benefit as well. I'd do something a bit more specialized, like maybe giving it an underslung grenade launcher or some kind of flare launcher or something to differentiate it from a 'standard' hotshot though.

-Absolutely not on a 'melee Scion squad'. They're not cops. They're not riot control. They're assassins, saboteurs, and shock troops. You don't need shields and mauls for that. A perk or Order allowing for them to use their hotshot lasguns as Pistol weapons would not go amiss though.

-Scion Sentinels were a thing I used to be for, but now I just can't get behind it. You mentioned deep strike getting removed from the basic profile, and I can get behind that--with a Scion Forward Team as Fast Attack. Look to Tau Pathfinders for an example here. Some kind of benefit for deep strikers, a flare launcher that lets them mitigate enemies in cover, things like that.

-Scion Support Squads are something I can kinda/sorta get behind. The big thing though is that if it happens, the Rapier should be involved. It's a tracked weapons carrier. The last thing they need is another 'suppression' weapon like a mortar though. The hotshot volley gun fills that role fairly well.

Medics should be an Elite choice, as should the Master of Ordnance. Add in a Master of the Fleet or some kind of fleet liason too while we're at it.
There were a few fluff bits that would definitely add some more interesting notes to Scions in the form of the Valkyrie 'Spectre'--an elongated Spectre with a battle cannon. It was large enough to carry multiple Centaurs in the cargo hold. If we want to get something Big going as a thematic addition to the Scions? That's the way to go, rather than adding more armour.

 Slayer6 wrote:
I'd delete all the finicky changes, and move the Tempestus Scion Squads back to the Elites slot (and swap Veterans back to Troops), move Tempestor Primes to take up an Elites slot, add their Command Squads as a free include for each Tempestor Prime in the army. Lose the PA regiments, just keep it back to basics with the Stormtroopers doctrine and we should be sweet, maybe add the old Clarion-Vox net rule from 7E?

Nailed it - for bonus points, revert the name change so they return to being the Stormtroopers they truly are.

Will also accept the in-universe nicknames of "Glory Boys" or "Toy Soldiers" instead.

Wouldn't want to lose any of the Doctrines since that's what is currently making Scions appealing as a solo force. You don't want to use those doctrines - fine don't use them. Dont suggest taking it away from others just because you don't want to use them.

OP I agree with all of your initial points. Scions NEED a FA and HS choice since it is currently impossible to build a brigade with them. It means it's impossible to have more than 6 scion and 3 command squads without losing CP for another detachment.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Slayer6 wrote:
I'd delete all the finicky changes, and move the Tempestus Scion Squads back to the Elites slot (and swap Veterans back to Troops), move Tempestor Primes to take up an Elites slot, add their Command Squads as a free include for each Tempestor Prime in the army. Lose the PA regiments, just keep it back to basics with the Stormtroopers doctrine and we should be sweet, maybe add the old Clarion-Vox net rule from 7E?

Nailed it - for bonus points, revert the name change so they return to being the Stormtroopers they truly are.

Will also accept the in-universe nicknames of "Glory Boys" or "Toy Soldiers" instead.

Wasn't there also one with Paradground in there and i am fairly sure there was also "tin soldier" thrown arround aswell

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:Thank you for completely dodging my question and white knighting for a thread.

I'll ask again:

What good is RF S3 AP2 d1 shooting at 9"? What is that effective against? Hordes? What are they literally built for? They serve zero purpose. They cost more, shoot less, and do a worse job than regular guard dropped out of a valk. They are only good for Plasma murder squads, which you can't even build one of in a single box, because there are only 2 plasmas in the entire box. But hey, at least you get a lord commissar so your pointless infantry can ride around in their pointless truck, with an equally pointless model.

You need to look up the definition of white knighting. I wasn't dodging your question I was addressing your doom & gloom attitude as frankly it isn't going to help anyone. Hotshot lasguns have a place they're good for nailing units with 5+ saves or better due to the AP, I'd love them to have either more shots or more strength but str4 makes them better than bolters (removing the AP just makes them into bolters so why not use bolters in that case) and more shots increases the chances to procure the additional shot doctrine so could be potentially too powerful, I personally don't have a solution to the perceived power problem except for the suggested change to assault 2 or 3 as this would give them a big boost in firepower.

Poly Ranger wrote:Wouldn't want to lose any of the Doctrines since that's what is currently making Scions appealing as a solo force. You don't want to use those doctrines - fine don't use them. Dont suggest taking it away from others just because you don't want to use them.

OP I agree with all of your initial points. Scions NEED a FA and HS choice since it is currently impossible to build a brigade with them. It means it's impossible to have more than 6 scion and 3 command squads without losing CP for another detachment.

Thanks dude, got a lot of people here trying to make scions into just an addition to IG for some reason. They can be both in my opinion and all I'm wanting to do is brainstorm/wishlist the things to make them a little more viable as a solo force

Absolutely not on a 'melee Scion squad'. They're not cops. They're not riot control. They're assassins, saboteurs, and shock troops. You don't need shields and mauls for that. A perk or Order allowing for them to use their hotshot lasguns as Pistol weapons would not go amiss though.

I'm cool with no melee like I said in my OP it was an idea I had floating around that needed some work, the pistol in combat idea is fab in my opinion. On the assassins part so what do you think to allowing us to have a sniper unit as a Heavy support option?

Scion Support Squads are something I can kinda/sorta get behind. The big thing though is that if it happens, the Rapier should be involved. It's a tracked weapons carrier. The last thing they need is another 'suppression' weapon like a mortar though. The hotshot volley gun fills that role fairly well.

The rapier has always in my eyes been a space marine toy, the weapons I was thinking were portable easy to use like; snipers, missile launchers, that anti-tank rifle I mentioned in the OP and last but least mortars, I was less bothered by the mortar personally as it doesn't do much we already aren't good at.

Scion Sentinels were a thing I used to be for, but now I just can't get behind it. You mentioned deep strike getting removed from the basic profile, and I can get behind that--with a Scion Forward Team as Fast Attack. Look to Tau Pathfinders for an example here. Some kind of benefit for deep strikers, a flare launcher that lets them mitigate enemies in cover, things like that.

this is cool, yeah a forward recon team maybe combining this with the debuffer idea thrown around earlier would make them a fun little unit to support, how would you equip them though?

 Samuhell wrote:
Thanks dude, got a lot of people here trying to make scions into just an addition to IG for some reason.

The reason being, that's what they are.

Storm Troopers got a Codex to support two kits being released, in a period with some of the worst Codex release philosophies in GW history. After all, just ask Kan about the schism in the Cult Mechanicus the following year, or how in the same month the ST book came out you got the Imperial Knights book - a lowlight, even at the time - and the month prior had seen a freaking Legion of the Damned codex be released.

Why GW could just wait a month and release those kits alongside the IG book is anyone's guess. Well, the answer is probably "we thought we'd make more money out of it", but it was still a stupid move.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Samuhell wrote:
Thanks dude, got a lot of people here trying to make scions into just an addition to IG for some reason.

The reason being, that's what they are.

Storm Troopers got a Codex to support two kits being released, in a period with some of the worst Codex release philosophies in GW history. After all, just ask Kan about the schism in the Cult Mechanicus the following year, or how in the same month the ST book came out you got the Imperial Knights book - a lowlight, even at the time - and the month prior had seen a freaking Legion of the Damned codex be released.

Why GW could just wait a month and release those kits alongside the IG book is anyone's guess. Well, the answer is probably "we thought we'd make more money out of it", but it was still a stupid move.

And now the lore is written and plenty of people enjoy Stormtrooper armies over regular guardsmen I can't see why you can't leave us to wishlist and try and make something more substantial for an army? Anyway how many people go on about Inquisitorial stormtroopers? the idea of standalone armies of stormtroopers has been around for years and no one is saying they can't be a supplemental force as well, I've not even suggested a separate codex as I still want them to perform their role within the IG, but we've got the rules and structure in place for them to do both, it would be nice to flesh it out so we can....

the_scotsman wrote:
Picture: An all-in-one guard infantry box that includes 12 bodies, with two being optionally buildable as a heavy weapon team or as extra guardsmen so that you can build a platcom/command squad models and still have a guardsman squad.

Each box comes with 2 sets of heads to represent 2 regiments. You've got:

And enjoy 45£ for 10 :(

fleshing out, is only something done to posterboy factions. Afterall, ask Dark eldar how many Subfactions they got ripped into and how many HQ options they lost.

Alas, what happened with stormtroopers is canibalisation. Of course , that doesn't mean that Stormtrooper specific FS and HS options shouldn't exist, considering the IG doctrine of specific one unit Type formations / regiment it would even make sense.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I'm sorry, what use is a mass 18" S3 AP2 D1 army these days when everything is T5+ 3W and hits like a ton of bricks at 24"?

I really think with the way NuMarines are shaping up, things like Scions and any S3 armies are basically pointless. Unless you are running all Mech, even then still have the same problems. No if you made the Hellguns S4, AP1 D2, and standard las S4 AP 0 D1, you'd get something for the return. But We are now in the edition of Elite Deathstar armies. Two shots at 9" of S3 doesn't cut mustard anymore. Hell, it's not even good against Orks anymore.

If everything is T5+ then S3 isn't that big deal and S4 isn't that useful. You still wound on 5+

Not Online!!! wrote:
fleshing out, is only something done to posterboy factions. Afterall, ask Dark eldar how many Subfactions they got ripped into and how many HQ options they lost.

Alas, what happened with stormtroopers is canibalisation. Of course , that doesn't mean that Stormtrooper specific FS and HS options shouldn't exist, considering the IG doctrine of specific one unit Type formations / regiment it would even make sense.

Oh don't me wrong I know GW loves marines and giving them all the new stuff and I absolutely feel for the Dark Eldar with their losses (so much cool stuff just went the way of the dodo). But that's my point currently (subject to change) we have doctrines for Scion only regiments but currently the best you can do is a battalion and at higher points limits the rule of three really makes list building quite difficult (I know basic scions aren't limited neither are tauroxes) I was merely suggesting additional units and to a degree even tried to make sure that I wasn't asking for too much new stuff that couldn't be covered by what we already have so they didn't have to make new kits