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On moon miranda.

GK Paladin's didn't exist until midway through 5th edition, that was when the 3.5E Daemonhunters codex got replaced. They were stupid good in that era for sure, but didn't exist in 4th, and their strength was being able to play gimmicks with wound allocation thanks to their 2nd wound by making each model different, so that nobody would die until you'd already blown through half the wounds, FNP was the cherry on top.

That said, W1 TH/SS termi's were very powerful in 5E and saw lots of playtime. The normal Termi's saw a whole lot less because SS were made substantially better and they limited heavy weapons to 2 per 10 instead of 2 per squad (allowing 5 man units to take 2).

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 Vaktathi wrote:
GK Paladin's didn't exist until midway through 5th edition, that was when the 3.5E Daemonhunters codex got replaced. They were stupid good in that era for sure, but didn't exist in 4th, and their strength was being able to play gimmicks with wound allocation thanks to their 2nd wound by making each model different, so that nobody would die until you'd already blown through half the wounds, FNP was the cherry on top.

That said, W1 TH/SS termi's were very powerful in 5E and saw lots of playtime. The normal Termi's saw a whole lot less because SS were made substantially better and they limited heavy weapons to 2 per 10 instead of 2 per squad (allowing 5 man units to take 2).
And 5th was a big jump in high AP spam as well.

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skchsan wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Galas wrote:
The reason Warhammer40k has been such a bad game trought all this years is mostly because like many posters here, they have been keeping "legacy" rules because "they were always like that" or "they feel right".

GW actually using the full range of wound stats and damage stats is great! The problem is they are too coward to defy all this cumberstome legacy statlines and rules.

Like "Yeah, now stats can go further than 10!" but then every S and T value has remained nearly the same when most problems of vehicles fragility could be fixed upping Toughtness values and Wounds values.

Much more infantry should have 2 wounds and 3 wounds, like ork nobz.
So the faults of 7th edition sit squarely on the shoulders of players who wanted "legacy" rules? That's a profoundly ridiculous assessment.
No, the fault is that GW thought it would work if they just squeezed in LOW class units above landraider equivalent units. It inflated the value of anti-titanic weapons which made the game lot more lethal than it used to. Then they diminished the effective defensive capabilities of elite units in a form of collateral damage with the new 'everything can wound anything' and wound chart and ap system, which was designed so that even the humble guardsmen have .000000001% chance of blowing up a knight.

7th was ruined by formations. LOWs existed long before 7th. You hate knights, we get it, and I agree they never should have been a stand alone army, but that isn't what killed 7th.

Kanluwen wrote:I'd totally be down for Aeldari 'elite and mobile' infantry to get an Invuln/Dodge save that's based upon how far they moved that turn.

So if say Banshees, Swooping Hawks, Hellions, Harlequins moved half their value? They get a +1 to whatever Invuln they have. Move their full value? +1 to Invuln, -1 to be hit.

There's, as they said in prior streams, a few levers they can pull.

Agreed. Eldar infantry should all have defensive abilities that work like Distort Fields. So nothing if they stand still, 6++ for half move, 5++ for a full move, and 4++ for advancing. Make them annoying little buggers that are hard to kill because they're constantly bouncing around everywhere, but if they ever hold still for anything, they pay for it.
   
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that would be thematic and interesting
   
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 JNAProductions wrote:
 Slayer6 wrote:
When a basic Intercessor costs 1 point less than a Scion packing a Plasmagun, that can oneshot two of them on the drop very reliably... You know they aren't doing so well... I would have given Marines 1W and a built-in base 6++ that could be enhanced by other additions - such as Terminator Armor, or Storm Shields. Hell, change the rules around to:

The Black Carapace:
Models with this rule have a 6++. This can be modified.

Terminator Armor:
2+ save and also improves Invulnerable Saves by 1.

Combat Shield:
Improves Invulnerable Saves by 1.

Storm Shield:
Improves both Armor and Invulnerable saves by 1.

Combine them all, and your current Storm Shield Terminators come into play. 2+/4++

Combat Shield on a model results in a 5++

Basic Space Marine units have a 6++.

Hell, if needed add a clause where Invulnerable saves cannot be improved past a 3++.

Now. I'm going to go back to trying to envisage just how an Imperial Guard Shotgun can kill a Warlord Titan... I haven't had much luck so far...
If by "One-shot two of them very reliably" you mean "Has a slightly better than 20% chance" then sure, that's accurate.

Now, we can bump our odds up by making them AP-4 with the right Regiment, but Intercessors can have cover for +1 Armor, which would end up a wash. Even with AP-4 and no cover, you're still only getting about 30% odds of killing two in one shooting phase.

Adding on some basic buffs, like, say, Father of the Future (which is now, apparently, baked into what Apothecaries can do) and your odds of killing two drop to less than 15% (even WITH AP-4 and no cover). If we add cover/drop AP to -3, odds further drop to just about 10%.



I should have specified Kappic Eagles, that's my own fault... So, I usually run Kappic Eagles with the PoC WL trait Prime inside another Valkyrie with Master-Vox, Command Rod and Tactical Auto Reliquary for another order on a 2+, along with the Inspired Orders Stratagem (3 orders, or 4 on a 2+). Usually I am ordering the Plasma Squads to have Take Aim and the other squads to have FRFSRF upon the disembark.

97.8% hit (after RR)
83.33% chance to wound (overcharged)
83.33% chance to kill (effective 6+ save)
Overall percentage: 67.9% which can "oneshot two of them reliably".

Obviously I would not go for enemies in cover, or under a FnP bubble - that's what my other stuff can waste time shooting instead, eg; Catachan Manticore with Full Payload.



But back on topic, I think the Marine changes aren't really that helpful especially considering that one of the most plentiful weapons arrayed against them has also been buffed to match them. In fact, I'd say the 2W change would have been a fantastic addition to the Crusade system, but not here.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/08 23:14:51


I will not rest until the Tabletop Imperial Guard has been reduced to complete mediocrity. This is completely reflected in the lore. 
   
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I would not consider anything that requires you to roll above average to be "Very reliable."

And the odds of killing ONE Intercessor without Cover or FNP would be very reliable, at just shy of 90%. But the odds of killing two are less than 50%.

Moreover, since they're not getting Deepstruck, if you don't get Turn 1, there's a very good chance that they're footslogging it. And shortly dead.

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the_scotsman wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
2 wound primaris was fine. 2 wound migdet marines is an insult to the primaris.


Good.

I hope every person who exclusively plays primaris has their feelings hurt.


Sorry to tell you this, but as a person that has an exclusively primaris army; my feelings were not hurt by this at all. In fact, quite the opposite. I think it makes a lot of sense for all space marines to have two wounds. I have a hard time believing the Belisarian Furnace doubles the health of a primaris space marine. I take the view that primaris are more resilient than firstborn but not so much that it can really be demonstrating in the tabletop game. Kinda like how Phobos pattern armor is lighter than Tacticus pattern armor but not enough to not get a 3+ save.
   
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 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
2 wound primaris was fine. 2 wound migdet marines is an insult to the primaris.


Good.

I hope every person who exclusively plays primaris has their feelings hurt.


Sorry to tell you this, but as a person that has an exclusively primaris army; my feelings were not hurt by this at all. In fact, quite the opposite. I think it makes a lot of sense for all space marines to have two wounds. I have a hard time believing the Belisarian Furnace doubles the health of a primaris space marine. I take the view that primaris are more resilient than firstborn but not so much that it can really be demonstrating in the tabletop game. Kinda like how Phobos pattern armor is lighter than Tacticus pattern armor but not enough to not get a 3+ save.


ditto, don't feel insulted in the slightest

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 Castozor wrote:

I don't understand this mentality to be perfectly hojnesjt. Yes fluff should not DICTATE game balance, especially when the fluff for all factions tend to be way over the top as in 40k. But fluff should certainly GUIDE game balance, itwhy even have this wondrous amount of background material otherwise? Let's not pretend 40k is as popular as it is because it is a stellar wargame on its own merits. Balancing the game should come first but as stated, how are we even going to let Eldar live up to their fluff on the tabletop when every marine has 2W?
eldar have not lived up to their fluff on the tabletop for like 15 years. Marines having two wounds is the least of their problems.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/09 04:45:57


 
   
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 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Agreed. Eldar infantry should all have defensive abilities that work like Distort Fields. So nothing if they stand still, 6++ for half move, 5++ for a full move, and 4++ for advancing. Make them annoying little buggers that are hard to kill because they're constantly bouncing around everywhere, but if they ever hold still for anything, they pay for it.


I like the concept, but I think you could nix a lot of the bookkeeping and some of the complexity. Just make it a 5+ invul if they moved or fell back and a 4+ if they advanced. If you took away Battle Focus (the rule that lets them ignore the to-hit penalty with assault weapons), you could maybe even go a step a further and make it a 3+ invul if they're in light cover. Maybe. The idea being that advancing would lower your offense but improve your survivability, thus lowering the overall lethality of the game and making the rule more of a tradeoff for eldar rather than a raw power boost. I also feel it's important to make "good" invulns pretty easy to obtain. My striking scorpions don't care all that much about a 5+ invul save if they're spending most of their time in light cover (functionally giving them a 2+ armor save).

Other random ideas:
* Same as the above, but make the values a step lower (5+ instead of 4+), and make it an FNP instead of an invul. That way, it would still benefit units with good armor saves against attacks with bad AP. A scorpion would still benefit against lasguns, for instance. The weird thing there is that a lascannon would suddenly become better at overwhelming the save than D1 weapons. So maybe make it a "ward save" (an invul that you take after armor saves) instead of an FNP?

* Bring back "jink" for various types of eldar. As in, when targeted by an attack, the unit can gain a 4+ invulnerable save until the start of its next turn at the cost of suffering a to-hit penalty until the end of its next turn. Again, a defense-for-offense trade, but one that can be used reactively. You're not defenseless because your opponent got first turn.

* Bring back some jump-shoot-jump. I think it would be cool if an autarch could tell a unit to basically Fire & Fade as a guard style order instead of having a generic reroll aura. Let Baharroth do the same thing for a squad of swooping hawks. Maybe change Quicken to allow the same. With the reduced board size, the new strategic reserve rules, and the increased number of mobility gimmicks compared to past editions, I'm not sure JSJ would be the nightmare that it was in the past.

*Introduce an evasion stat. This would be the biggest overhaul and the most work, but I don't think it would be an unreasonable change. Basically, "Evasion" (roughly analogous in value to Initiative) would be a stat that you compare to the attacker's BS or WS to determine whether or not an attack hits. So orks might have pretty decent WS because they know how to fight, but they might have pretty crummy Evasion because they're not all that great at actually avoiding damage. Eldar would obviously have high evasion making them difficult to hit. Marines may or may not have better evasion than a baseline human; they're good at using terrain and parrying melee attacks, sure, but they're also big targets that generally seem to rely on their durability rather than "evasiveness."


ATTENTION
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blanket +4 inv with possible buffs on the entire army? considering the ap hight in the game, this would make eldar more resilient then marines.

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Should GW really be duplicating and then reinventing the 4++ Eldar faction, your basically turning craftworlders into Harliquines.

I don't disagree that certain codex's clearly need some help Mainly Eldar, Drukari, Tau and Pure GSC, Knights.

But I'm not sure adding yet more invulnerable saves is healthy.

Does it suck marines got the first power boost of the edition when they were top tier, definataly but I think, people need to try and start to rethink the design changes you want to call for before suggesting to GW that they need to fix their balance with X or Y.
   
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No invulnerable armor if you stand still, 5+ if you move (Half moves don't make sense because you can just move half your move and then move the rest back and remain in the same place, the important bit is moving to not count as stationary) and 4+ if you advance would be fine. Of course, things like wraithguard should not get it. It would be probably something for normal eldar infantry and bikers. I mean if ravenwing can have it theres no reason why Eldar could not. The only thing you'll need is to remove the ease that eldars have to make a 9 man biker unit a 3++ or 2++ like they have in 8th.


Of course as others have noted the problem with Eldar is the limitations of the warhammer system to represents why they are "durable".

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/10/09 08:01:21


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
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Karol wrote:
blanket +4 inv with possible buffs on the entire army? considering the ap hight in the game, this would make eldar more resilient then marines.


This might sound crazy, but I kind of feel like most eldar (craftworlders, harlies, some drukhari) actually should be pretty durable. Just not through raw toughness and armor. Craftworlders put a big emphasis on mitigating casualties. They're not marines, but they're also not guardsmen. They're not hulking brutes wrapped in power armor, but they are supposedly fast, coordinated, and psychically buffed enough to keep their casualties pretty low. Short of giving them all JSJ or making them such extreme glass cannons that facing them becomes a coin toss, how would you represent that on the tabletop?

To-hit modifiers were an intuitive (but problematic) answer. A -1 to hit modifier doesn't feel like it's cutting it at the moment.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
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But I didn't stand still I moved 2 inches that way 2 inches across and 2 inches back see I moved 6 inches despite my unit ending up back in the same cover.
Short of it only applying when you advance which automatically impacts shooting, as I'm guessing this wont apply in CC, it's just way to gameable.
   
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 Galas wrote:
No invulnerable armor if you stand still, 5+ if you move (Half moves don't make sense because you can just move half your move and then move the rest back and remain in the same place, the important bit is moving to not count as stationary) and 4+ if you advance would be fine. Of course, things like wraithguard should not get it. It would be probably something for normal eldar infantry and bikers. I mean if ravenwing can have it theres no reason why Eldar could not. The only thing you'll need is to remove the ease that eldars have to make a 9 man biker unit a 3++ or 2++ like they have in 8th.


Of course as others have noted the problem with Eldar is the limitations of the warhammer system to represents why they are "durable".


Yep. I think I agree with all of that.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
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 Galas wrote:
No invulnerable armor if you stand still, 5+ if you move (Half moves don't make sense because you can just move half your move and then move the rest back and remain in the same place, the important bit is moving to not count as stationary) and 4+ if you advance would be fine. Of course, things like wraithguard should not get it. It would be probably something for normal eldar infantry and bikers. I mean if ravenwing can have it theres no reason why Eldar could not. The only thing you'll need is to remove the ease that eldars have to make a 9 man biker unit a 3++ or 2++ like they have in 8th.


Of course as others have noted the problem with Eldar is the limitations of the warhammer system to represents why they are "durable".

Ah, yes, I meant only infantry and maybe bikes. And it would need to be capped at a 4++ for anything that gets it. Not for Wraithguard and definitely not for vehicles, unless it's something that pays for a Distort Field. Even a fast moving vehicle is a big target.
   
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Ice_can wrote:
But I didn't stand still I moved 2 inches that way 2 inches across and 2 inches back see I moved 6 inches despite my unit ending up back in the same cover.
Short of it only applying when you advance which automatically impacts shooting, as I'm guessing this wont apply in CC, it's just way to gameable.


Sounds like you're describing a unit moving constantly and unpredictably. Which could reasonably throw off someone's aim. If a ranger is dancing in circles, he will count as having moved and thus take a penalty to hit with his sniper rifle (heavy weapon). Which was Galas's point, I think. It's not actually important that you physically move the model; it's important that the model counting as "moving" means that they have the downsides that go with it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/09 08:11:25



ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Wyldhunt wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
But I didn't stand still I moved 2 inches that way 2 inches across and 2 inches back see I moved 6 inches despite my unit ending up back in the same cover.
Short of it only applying when you advance which automatically impacts shooting, as I'm guessing this wont apply in CC, it's just way to gameable.


Sounds like you're describing a unit moving constantly and unpredictably. Which could reasonably throw off someone's aim. If a ranger is dancing in circles, he will count as having moved and thus take a penalty to hit with his sniper rifle (heavy weapon). Which was Galas's point, I think. It's not actually important that you physically move the model; it's important that the model counting as "moving" means that they have the downsides that go with it.

One unit, how many eldar foot units have heavy weapons and how many have assulat or pistol?

As far as I can tell it's only Rangers and Dark Reapers that have heavy weapons. And only Rangers would care about the penelty for moving. That's not a trade off that's a frankly too good buff.
Having to advance would be a lot fairer IMHO.
   
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Ice_can wrote:
Should GW really be duplicating and then reinventing the 4++ Eldar faction, your basically turning craftworlders into Harliquines.


It's an issue of there not being a ton of obvious design space to represent the concept of, "Durable because quick and tricky." I actually don't feel like harlequins are terribly true to their fluff at the moment. A 1 wound model with a 4+ invul is a coin flip away from death every time the enemy succesfully wounds his Toughness 3 self. Currently, you can mitigate how many times the enemy gets a chance to shoot at you (pretty fluffy), but a handful of lasguns is a pretty major threat to a troupe of harlequins once they step out of their boats.

I always felt that a 1 wound marine being nervous about a single laspistol shot was a source of fluff/crunch dissonance. Making them 2 wounds does a pretty good job of addressing that. Dying to a single lasgun shot felt "wrong." But if you lose 2 wounds to lasguns, well clearly it's the result of weight of fire and was just fated to be. Harlequins kind of have the same issue. Their fluff says they're too good at being anime ninja tricksters - too "elite" - to start sweating around a couple lasguns. But just giving them more wounds (and a higher points cost) wouldn't work as well for harlequins because their form of durability probably shouldn't be countered by higher damage weapons. A lascannon should be good at bypassing the benefits of marine organs and power armor; it shouldn't be good at killing the guy who's to fast and sparkly to aim at.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
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That is definitely true the game is really starting to hurt from the insistent that it be a D6 system and removing stat comparison.

But while it's certainly not fluffy right now Xeno infantry in general just need to go back to 8th edition points untill their codex's as bumping them all up leaving guard at 5 and giving marines 2w with better stats for twice their points isn't helping the game balance.
   
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Ice_can wrote:
Wyldhunt wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
But I didn't stand still I moved 2 inches that way 2 inches across and 2 inches back see I moved 6 inches despite my unit ending up back in the same cover.
Short of it only applying when you advance which automatically impacts shooting, as I'm guessing this wont apply in CC, it's just way to gameable.


Sounds like you're describing a unit moving constantly and unpredictably. Which could reasonably throw off someone's aim. If a ranger is dancing in circles, he will count as having moved and thus take a penalty to hit with his sniper rifle (heavy weapon). Which was Galas's point, I think. It's not actually important that you physically move the model; it's important that the model counting as "moving" means that they have the downsides that go with it.

One unit, how many eldar foot units have heavy weapons and how many have assulat or pistol?

As far as I can tell it's only Rangers and Dark Reapers that have heavy weapons. And only Rangers would care about the penelty for moving. That's not a trade off that's a frankly too good buff.
Having to advance would be a lot fairer IMHO.


I see what you're saying. On the other hand, a 5+ invul is only so useful for a lot of guns/targets. Warp spiders would already have a 5+ save against AP-2 and a better save against AP -1 or AP0. So unless you're shooting plasma at the warp spider, the 5+ invul doesn't actually matter. Heck, he'd still have a 5+ armor save against the plasma if he were in light cover. The 5+ invul gets a lot better on models with a 4+ or 5+ save like avengers and guardians, but then your opponent is shooting weaponry with decent AP at your light infantry.

Against an intercessor's bolt rifle without doctrines, an avenger has a 5+ save anyway (a 4+ if he's in cover), and the guardian has a 6+ save (5+ in cover). If the intercessor is in the tactical doctrine, the guardian cares a lot more and the avenger cares a little. I'm rambling. What I"m trying to say is that a 5+ invul on craftworlders is good, but maybe not actually that good. A 4+ invul save is a different story and absolutely should require advancing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ice_can wrote:

But while it's certainly not fluffy right now Xeno infantry in general just need to go back to 8th edition points untill their codex's as bumping them all up leaving guard at 5 and giving marines 2w with better stats for twice their points isn't helping the game balance.


Absolutely. The 50% price increase to kabalite warriors kind of chafes right now.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/09 08:37:32



ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
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I've often felt that 40k simply lacks the rules to really let eldar work as they should. Eldar should be hard to hit if they're on the move, but if they ARE hit, go down hard. to use a mechwarrior analogy, they should operate like light mechs (or fast mediums) they can often hit hard, and manuver quite well and are thus difficult to hit, but they can't take many hits that actually connect

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Any marines. It seems really unbalanced and I am a marine player. Intercessors should be one wound and they’re still under costed for what they do.

Indeed, this goes too far.

Intercessors should have one wound and Aggressors as well as others should have two wounds.
This could also leave Termies with two wounds.

What we see now is a massive shift of the meta.
GW tried to counteract by making heavy bolters D2.
But Xenos? Eldar armies gather starcannons which were out of date since ed. 3 where they were D3.
All in all, disappointing.

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Wyldhunt wrote:
Karol wrote:
blanket +4 inv with possible buffs on the entire army? considering the ap hight in the game, this would make eldar more resilient then marines.


This might sound crazy, but I kind of feel like most eldar (craftworlders, harlies, some drukhari) actually should be pretty durable. Just not through raw toughness and armor. Craftworlders put a big emphasis on mitigating casualties. They're not marines, but they're also not guardsmen. They're not hulking brutes wrapped in power armor, but they are supposedly fast, coordinated, and psychically buffed enough to keep their casualties pretty low. Short of giving them all JSJ or making them such extreme glass cannons that facing them becomes a coin toss, how would you represent that on the tabletop?

To-hit modifiers were an intuitive (but problematic) answer. A -1 to hit modifier doesn't feel like it's cutting it at the moment.


okey, but with the way GW designs them. they would be faster, more resilient and more killy then marines. This would either have to be balanced by them being very elite and low model count, which GW won't do because they want to sell more models, or would leave them in a strange place where eldar balance would have to come from marines becoming a horde army, but then what would GW suppose to do with real horde armies like Tyranids or Orks, or worse what would they do with armies that are stuck in the middle between horde and normal like IG or tau? it would be a total just a ton of points where something could, and IMO would, go wrong. now eldar players would be happy. But I don't how a custodes player should feel about eldar being faster, stronger, more killy and more resilient. Or having eldar tanks and walkers run around with +4inv practicaly doubling their resiliance, and what is worse making one or two shot anti tank weapons really bad. We would again arrive at a point where a 4 shot weapon with str 5-6 is better then a lascanon at blowing up tanks.

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Karol wrote:
blanket +4 inv with possible buffs on the entire army? considering the ap hight in the game, this would make eldar more resilient then marines.


I don't know about that, but a whole bunch of 5++ 40+ ppm Custodes will be pissed.

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I really, really agree with the idea of Eldar infantry & bikes getting a 5++ if they move, a 4++ if they advance. Yeah this would basically be handing most of them a 5++ all the time, but that seems like a good thing to me by making the army more elite.

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I think 4++ if they just move's a bad idea. go with 6++ 5++ if they move 4++ if they advance

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How about "dodge" invulns for especially dodgy guys being represented by ability to reroll invulns? This way you'd have a 1W harlequin dodging a hail of lasgun fire, but up to a point.

As for orks, the fluff states that orks can survive freaking decapitation. T4 does not , however 2W ork boys would require too much. I think that ork boys would be nicely represented by a 6+++ FNP, and painboy improving it to 5+++. Also bring back proper 'ard boys for pts instead of CP. And while we are at it, screw orky BS5+. Represent the ammount of dakka or snazzy bits on models by giving a flat +1BS to units instead of giving rerolls to 1, or something minor like that. Giving a reroll 1's + Dakkadakka is almost the same as giving a BS4+, but is really tideous to resolve.

As for horde vs elite armies, I think that 2W marines are "right" from fluff perspective. However they should be costed appropriately, and price should account for all the special rules they've been getting. Horde units need a respawn mechanic free of CP tax to be able to field large ammount of troops - they simply some in waves. This way you put less strain on the player to paint ridiculous ammount of models, as well as giving hordes a way to overwhelm elite forces in a way appropriate for their fluff, as well as giving marines more targets to shoot at. Win-win?

the_scotsman wrote:
Also, ork nobz (14ppm?) being OK at 2w but marines (traditionally 15ppm) not being OK at 2w is a fun hot take.

"thing was like this way before! So I'm not mad at thing! NEW thing different! Different bad!"

Well, except that Nobs have worse stats in general and their equipment is overpriced, less effective or both? Also they don't have all the snazzy special rules with doctrines and bolter drill. Most importantly Nobs do not have a 3+ save.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/09 11:17:27


 
   
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BrianDavion wrote:
I think 4++ if they just move's a bad idea. go with 6++ 5++ if they move 4++ if they advance

That was my original proposal. Same as a Distort Field.
   
 
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