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What are you talking about?

Orks don't need no upgrade, we've got everything but characters, let dem panzees get their stuff.

 Jidmah wrote:
What are you talking about?

Orks don't need no upgrade, we've got everything but characters, let dem panzees get their stuff.

Kommandos, Tankbustas, Ard Boyz?
Deffkoptas?

Either way the point is that there are a few more factions than just Aeldari which could use some real significant releases and attention. Prior to the recut Fire Warriors and new Crisis Suits, I would have said Tau too.

Didn't eldar get like 1-2 characters and a banshee unit in 8th ed ? There are a few armies that got no units in 8th updates. Or just got a primaris Lt as a character.

 Kanluwen wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

I mean...

...Would it?

Warp Spiders, Swooping Hawks, Striking Scorpions, Shining Spears, Dark Reapers, Fire Dragons, Karandras, Maugan Ra, Fuegan, Asurmen, New Warp Spider Lord. So, 11 kits, 5 of which are single character clampacks, if they were to do them all at once.

Let's compare to...

Gravis Captain, Bladeguard Ancient, Judicar, Assault Intercessors, Eradicators, Heavy Intercessors, Bladeguard Veterans, Outriders, Storm Speeder, Gladiator, Hammerfall Turret, Primaris Techmarine, Spacemario Kart. 13 kits, 4 of which are character clampacks, not counting the additional sprue molds that gw had to invest in to make monopose bladeguard, monopose Assault Ints, and monopose Eradicators.

Out of all those monoposes you mentioned, only Assault Intercessors and Outriders(and by comparison, the Necron Warriors and Skorpekh Destroyers+Plasmacyte) got their own sprues. The Captain, Overlord, Lieutenant, and Royal Wardens all have their own frames as well.
The Eradicators, Bladeguard, Bladeguard Ancient, Judicar, and Chaplain were all on one shared sprue. Same with the Necron Plasmancer, Cryptothralls, Skorpekh Lord, and Ressurector.

There's no guarantee of the Judicar getting a clamshell release, just like the Relictor for Stormcast still hasn't gotten one.

All that said:
There was a rumor going around that there's a "big release" coming for Aeldari in 2021. What that entails and if it's still on track or was even real in the first place? Who knows. There has been some talk about GW being happy with how the little 'army in a box' setups for Lumineth and Sisters have done, and I could see them using a similar method to at least make teaser samplers for Aeldari and other factions that players have felt are 'abandoned'.

Personal hope for Aeldari?
-Some dual kit Aspect Warriors. Fire Dragons and Dark Reapers have always, IMO, felt like they have enough shared parts that it could be done reasonably. Same with Warp Spiders and Scorpions.
-Rangers
-Shining Spears
-Updated Dire Avengers that dual kit with Swooping Hawks.

Exarchs/Phoenix Lords...I just don't know how to do it without it being some gigantic thing. I think that wouldn't be a terrible place to have them as part of their respective Temple boxes but that's about as much as I've got.

I'm hoping that next year will bring a big shift to the way the Guard army is setup. I harp on this all the time and I'll continue to do so until I finally just give up on Guard altogether...but without a seismic shift in the way the Guard units are organized or until modeling starts to mean something again, it's a catastrophically mismatched book.

I don't have to say Skitarii HQ as it looks like we're getting one.

I really don't think dual kits would do aspect warriors justice, the only thing they have in common is that they're aspect warriors and eldar, so they share the same bodies and then what? They're all unique in terms of weapons, runes, armour, helmets and other trinkets, a dual kit wouldn't actually be any good in preserving their flavour.

Regarding whether some armies need it more or not, Eldar do more than Orks and Guard. 15 year old plus sculpts that are still in finecast need it more.

 Kanluwen wrote:

The Newman wrote:

The worst thing about the absence of Exodites is how little work it would be for GW to add them. If they could just dump the Daemons from AoS into 40k with almost no modification then doing the same thing with the AoS high elves seems like a no-brainer.

Daemons have always been a big part of 40k though. They can manifest virtually everywhere.
Exodites are limited specifically to Exodite Worlds.

It's a similar issue as exists for adding Planetary Defense Forces or Arbites, not being a 'Big Name' force but instead something that is best represented by a unit at most in the main factions.

And yes, Eldar ... forgive me, "Aeldari" need a range-wide update more than anyone else.

Orks and Guard would like a word.

Aeldari definitely need help, but there's no "more than anyone else".

Orks and Guard don't have 75% of their army still in finecast.
They can wait.

The Newman wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
I think 2021 NEEDS to bring out a range revamp for Eldar, it's been a joke for a while.

After that doesn't happen, probably see Guard get some new toys, add some superfluous units for Sisters or whatever is easiest.

The eldar range really needs at the very least the finecast curbed...

would also be nice to see a nod torwards corsairs and exodites but that would be just preference at this point..

guard needs it's core infantry updated but in a decent manner, (hopefully with a more common sense pricing point aswell).

GSC need more then anything new a dex.

The worst thing about the absence of Exodites is how little work it would be for GW to add them. If they could just dump the Daemons from AoS into 40k with almost no modification then doing the same thing with the AoS high elves seems like a no-brainer.

And yes, Eldar ... forgive me, "Aeldari" need a range-wide update more than anyone else.

Honestly i'd like corsairs before exodites, simply because it would lend itself also better as a tie in body and bridge to ynnari and is a far more customizable force....




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dan2026 wrote:


Orks and Guard don't have 75% of their army still in finecast.
They can wait.

By that metric there are factions out there even more pressing.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The BA index was thin because they're fairly codex adherent. And even with that in mind, they're quite far ahead of Chapters like Raven Guard who actually have their own supplements right now...that just have a single character.

Exactly - don't let GW ruin them they way they have with Wolves and Dark Angels - they at least seem to have stopped sticking "blood" in front everything that began in 5th Ed (IIRC). We don't need new flanderised crap for the Blood Angels.

If we have to have more Chapter specific units beyond the next wave of main line Marine units then lets do one based on established lore for other Chapters or have rules for HH era FW units.

We know we are getting lower lvl HQs for some factions which seems good.

Not Online!!! wrote:


By that metric there are factions out there even more pressing.

Which ones?
I'm not being a dick, I can't think of any other army that still has the majority of its models that old.
A good portion of the Eldar army hasn't even reached plastic yet.
That's puts it back probably pre 2000.

Dudeface wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

I think next year we will see Eldar get a nice range revamp with Striking Scorpions and Warp Spiders in plastic (mentioned in PA), plus Phoenix Lords for both. They could really go to town and release all the aspects remaining in plastic. That would be a BIG release.

I mean...

...Would it?

Warp Spiders, Swooping Hawks, Striking Scorpions, Shining Spears, Dark Reapers, Fire Dragons, Karandras, Maugan Ra, Fuegan, Asurmen, New Warp Spider Lord. So, 11 kits, 5 of which are single character clampacks, if they were to do them all at once.

Let's compare to...

Gravis Captain, Bladeguard Ancient, Judicar, Assault Intercessors, Eradicators, Heavy Intercessors, Bladeguard Veterans, Outriders, Storm Speeder, Gladiator, Hammerfall Turret, Primaris Techmarine, Spacemario Kart. 13 kits, 4 of which are character clampacks, not counting the additional sprue molds that gw had to invest in to make monopose bladeguard, monopose Assault Ints, and monopose Eradicators.

It still remains wild to me that this game seemingly unique among 'ensemble/multifaction games' of all kinds there's just a bizarre assumption that one faction should both get and deserve 5x as many releases as any other given faction. It's like if in every MTG set 1/2 the cards were specifically Blue cards, and they'd been doing that for years and eveyrone just shrugged and went "Well of course 1/2 the cards are Blue, 1/3 of the playerbase plays Blue, they're by far the most popular!"

Slightly disingenuous argument comparing a starter set launch and faction (who get a sleep of etb kits in addition to a normal release) to a mid edition faction refresh.

Never the less, no faction deserves more or less than any other and GW will just do what they do. It's either accept that and be happy with what kits a release brings, move on or live in perpetual disgruntlement.

I'm not sure what a "sleep" is, I assume you meant like, a lot or something. I'm only counting each of the kits once, and just mentioning that in terms of financial investment, the ETB Bladeguard and Multipart Bladeguard are only 1 unit but they cost GW twice as much investment (or if you'd rather think of it this way: The investment into the multipart bladeguard is not justified by the fact the ETB bladeguard were in the starter box/released with the launch of the edition as that was a separate sprue mold unlike for example Necron Warriors who I believe had their full sprue in the starter)

But if you want to talk about a mid edition faction refresh idk we could talk about the shadowspear marine releases+codex 2.0 character releases which were a mid-edition faction refresh. Spoiler alert that was a way bigger release.

If you have some other way to let a company know that you're unhappy wtih the service they're providing within a capitalist economic system than withdrawing financial support from those products they put out that you don't like, letting them know you don't like them on social media, and requesting an alternative product that you would like and buy, let me know.

The idea that I and others frustrated with the constant stream of marine diarrhea are 'living in perpetual disgruntlement' is pretty funny, though. I don't even spend the majority of time I spend THINKING ABOUT 40K being annoyed at marines. Actually I spent all my painting/hobbying time of the last week painting up marine bits and magnetizing my deathwatch models.

Sorry the phone autocorrected "slew" to sleep. But yes, the atv, turret, chaplain on bike and outriders are etb or new player incentive kits which are part of a new edition starter support. Same for the heavy lokhust, skorpekhs and doomstalker.

Marines 2.0 release wave:
Captain
Lieutenant
Librarian
Eliminators
Invictor
Infiltrators
Impulsor
A start collecting box

Thats 3 clampacks and 4 kits with a start collecting box. Less than the proposed eldar list above unless I missed any. I've skipped the special characters as they were tied to the supplements not the codex.

Can you explain to me how the Hammerfall Bunker, a kit with a price point of 60USD that includes 1 optional bits swap, is an "ETB new player incentive kit" and Howling Banshees, a kit with a price point of 55USD that includes 1 optional bits swap, is somehow not an "ETB new player incentive kit"? it does not appear to be snap fit.

There is exactly one (1) optional swap you can perform with the new howling banshee kit. You can choose to change out the arms and head of one of the models in the kit to choose whether or not to make an exarch (say, if you wanted to make a full squad of 10 instead of a min squad of 5). I'm also confused how the Invader ATV is somehow this new category of thing that doesn't count as a kit because it only has 1 optional bits swap. Would the Achilles Ridgerunner or any of the new Ork buggies then not count as "real" kit releases? Was the entire release hailed as the Biggest Most Exciting Xenos Release Ever And No Xenos Player Can Ever Complain Again not a real model release because it was entirely monopose and had very minimal optional bits?

We've seen how GW does plastic aspects. 1 sprue, monopose, only optional bits in the kit are optional exarchs. That makes them the exact. same. financial investment of ANY of the new ETB marine kits. GW doesn't save money on the models having little plastic pegs for sticking their arms into their torsos.

 dan2026 wrote:




Which ones?
I'm not being a dick, I can't think of any other army that still has the majority of its models that old.
A good portion of the Eldar army hasn't even reached plastic yet.
That's puts it back probably pre 2000.

lost and the damned / r&h and elysians aswell as corsair that all got put behind the shed.

But yeah the eldar line up with all the finecrap and sprues elder then alot of the new players is certainly by that metric really damn close to deserving a new line up..
That said, the potatoe face guard does probably get bonus for that because i mean potatoface guard is potatoe.

My ranking for armies that needed a big redo were:

Sisters
Craftworld Eldar
Orks
Guard
Dark Eldar

Necrons would of been way low honestly.
But now they are done and Sisters are done.
Eldar are this huge sore spot, that just gets bigger as time goes on.

Jain Zar and the plastic banshees were a tiny patch on a very big issue.

the_scotsman wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

I think next year we will see Eldar get a nice range revamp with Striking Scorpions and Warp Spiders in plastic (mentioned in PA), plus Phoenix Lords for both. They could really go to town and release all the aspects remaining in plastic. That would be a BIG release.

I mean...

...Would it?

Warp Spiders, Swooping Hawks, Striking Scorpions, Shining Spears, Dark Reapers, Fire Dragons, Karandras, Maugan Ra, Fuegan, Asurmen, New Warp Spider Lord. So, 11 kits, 5 of which are single character clampacks, if they were to do them all at once.

Let's compare to...

Gravis Captain, Bladeguard Ancient, Judicar, Assault Intercessors, Eradicators, Heavy Intercessors, Bladeguard Veterans, Outriders, Storm Speeder, Gladiator, Hammerfall Turret, Primaris Techmarine, Spacemario Kart. 13 kits, 4 of which are character clampacks, not counting the additional sprue molds that gw had to invest in to make monopose bladeguard, monopose Assault Ints, and monopose Eradicators.

It still remains wild to me that this game seemingly unique among 'ensemble/multifaction games' of all kinds there's just a bizarre assumption that one faction should both get and deserve 5x as many releases as any other given faction. It's like if in every MTG set 1/2 the cards were specifically Blue cards, and they'd been doing that for years and eveyrone just shrugged and went "Well of course 1/2 the cards are Blue, 1/3 of the playerbase plays Blue, they're by far the most popular!"

Slightly disingenuous argument comparing a starter set launch and faction (who get a sleep of etb kits in addition to a normal release) to a mid edition faction refresh.

Never the less, no faction deserves more or less than any other and GW will just do what they do. It's either accept that and be happy with what kits a release brings, move on or live in perpetual disgruntlement.

I'm not sure what a "sleep" is, I assume you meant like, a lot or something. I'm only counting each of the kits once, and just mentioning that in terms of financial investment, the ETB Bladeguard and Multipart Bladeguard are only 1 unit but they cost GW twice as much investment (or if you'd rather think of it this way: The investment into the multipart bladeguard is not justified by the fact the ETB bladeguard were in the starter box/released with the launch of the edition as that was a separate sprue mold unlike for example Necron Warriors who I believe had their full sprue in the starter)

But if you want to talk about a mid edition faction refresh idk we could talk about the shadowspear marine releases+codex 2.0 character releases which were a mid-edition faction refresh. Spoiler alert that was a way bigger release.

If you have some other way to let a company know that you're unhappy wtih the service they're providing within a capitalist economic system than withdrawing financial support from those products they put out that you don't like, letting them know you don't like them on social media, and requesting an alternative product that you would like and buy, let me know.

The idea that I and others frustrated with the constant stream of marine diarrhea are 'living in perpetual disgruntlement' is pretty funny, though. I don't even spend the majority of time I spend THINKING ABOUT 40K being annoyed at marines. Actually I spent all my painting/hobbying time of the last week painting up marine bits and magnetizing my deathwatch models.

Sorry the phone autocorrected "slew" to sleep. But yes, the atv, turret, chaplain on bike and outriders are etb or new player incentive kits which are part of a new edition starter support. Same for the heavy lokhust, skorpekhs and doomstalker.

Marines 2.0 release wave:
Captain
Lieutenant
Librarian
Eliminators
Invictor
Infiltrators
Impulsor
A start collecting box

Thats 3 clampacks and 4 kits with a start collecting box. Less than the proposed eldar list above unless I missed any. I've skipped the special characters as they were tied to the supplements not the codex.

Can you explain to me how the Hammerfall Bunker, a kit with a price point of 60USD that includes 1 optional bits swap, is an "ETB new player incentive kit" and Howling Banshees, a kit with a price point of 55USD that includes 1 optional bits swap, is somehow not an "ETB new player incentive kit"? it does not appear to be snap fit.

There is exactly one (1) optional swap you can perform with the new howling banshee kit. You can choose to change out the arms and head of one of the models in the kit to choose whether or not to make an exarch (say, if you wanted to make a full squad of 10 instead of a min squad of 5). I'm also confused how the Invader ATV is somehow this new category of thing that doesn't count as a kit because it only has 1 optional bits swap. Would the Achilles Ridgerunner or any of the new Ork buggies then not count as "real" kit releases? Was the entire release hailed as the Biggest Most Exciting Xenos Release Ever And No Xenos Player Can Ever Complain Again not a real model release because it was entirely monopose and had very minimal optional bits?

We've seen how GW does plastic aspects. 1 sprue, monopose, only optional bits in the kit are optional exarchs. That makes them the exact. same. financial investment of ANY of the new ETB marine kits. GW doesn't save money on the models having little plastic pegs for sticking their arms into their torsos.

I didn't say the drop bunker, I said turret as in servo turret which is push fit.

You're being intentionally obtuse with most of the above, there is a clear and obvious easy to build range that the ATV is part of and the others aren't.

The ETB ranges accompany the starter set factions as a gateway mechanism. But I'm confident you know this and twisting it into a "look how hard done to the xenos are" point when it doesn't need to be.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Kommandos, Tankbustas, Ard Boyz?

That's just boyz with bagpacks, boyz with rokkits and the last one is both not a unit AND actually found on the boyz sprue currently in production.

Deffkoptas?

They are neither great nor needed (Thanks, bring it down!), the one sold by GW actually isn't finecast but metal, and the secondary market is still saturated with the ones from AOBR.

Either way the point is that there are a few more factions than just Aeldari which could use some real significant releases and attention. Prior to the recut Fire Warriors and new Crisis Suits, I would have said Tau too.

Yes and my point is that orks aren't one of them. Any ork player would be fine with a couple of proper characters, anything else would just be redundant. Orks are one of the few factions which regularly gets releases - 5th had lootas/burnas, kanz and dreads, 6th had planes, 7th had nauts, flash gits, SSAG mek, pain boy, MANz, wazbomm and mek guns, 8th had six buggies, Thrakka+Makari, the mek workshop and da red gobbo.

We don't need more models, we need proppa rules for the ones we have.

Model wise, it's definitely eldar first.

If only we could search on GW's website for what they consider to be these kits:

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/searchResults?Nr=AND(sku.siteId%3AUS_gw%2Cproduct.locale%3Aen_US_gw)&Nrs=collection()%2Frecord[product.startDate+%3C%3D+1603095900000+and+product.endDate+%3E%3D+1603095900000]&Ntt=easy+to+build&_dynSessConf=7129100433690789982&_dyncharset=UTF-8&view=all

If only they appended "Easy to build" on them as well, like with the myphitic blight hauler.

The new Lokhust Heavy is definitely not push fit, either, FWIW.

in fact, it's really weird, if you look at the breakdown of factions that have them in 40k it looks like...

-Plague marines and blight crawler
-the super old ones from like 4th ed like the cadians and guardians

and then...

redemptor dreadnought, reivers, intercessors, ATV, Turret, aggressors....

the_scotsman wrote:
If only we could search on GW's website for what they consider to be these kits:

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/searchResults?Nr=AND(sku.siteId%3AUS_gw%2Cproduct.locale%3Aen_US_gw)&Nrs=collection()%2Frecord[product.startDate+%3C%3D+1603095900000+and+product.endDate+%3E%3D+1603095900000]&Ntt=easy+to+build&_dynSessConf=7129100433690789982&_dyncharset=UTF-8&view=all

If only they appended "Easy to build" on them as well, like with the myphitic blight hauler.

Very true, they clearly need to update that field or consider scrapping the name given the banner includes kits that are now oop.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:




Which ones?
I'm not being a dick, I can't think of any other army that still has the majority of its models that old.
A good portion of the Eldar army hasn't even reached plastic yet.
That's puts it back probably pre 2000.

lost and the damned / r&h and elysians aswell as corsair that all got put behind the shed.

But yeah the eldar line up with all the finecrap and sprues elder then alot of the new players is certainly by that metric really damn close to deserving a new line up..
That said, the potatoe face guard does probably get bonus for that because i mean potatoface guard is potatoe.

Hate to say it, but those were Forgeworld releases and don't exactly share the same room as the GW armies. Trying to update them is a job for Forgeworld unfortunately, and they're hot on specialist games now.


Regarding the mentions of Exodites and Corsairs elsewhere, let them stay in the fluff, or OOP, GW doesn't need to dilute the Aeldari range with more half baked factions like Ynnari.

 Tyranid Horde wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:




Which ones?
I'm not being a dick, I can't think of any other army that still has the majority of its models that old.
A good portion of the Eldar army hasn't even reached plastic yet.
That's puts it back probably pre 2000.

lost and the damned / r&h and elysians aswell as corsair that all got put behind the shed.

But yeah the eldar line up with all the finecrap and sprues elder then alot of the new players is certainly by that metric really damn close to deserving a new line up..
That said, the potatoe face guard does probably get bonus for that because i mean potatoface guard is potatoe.

Hate to say it, but those were Forgeworld releases and don't exactly share the same room as the GW armies. Trying to update them is a job for Forgeworld unfortunately, and they're hot on specialist games now.


Regarding the mentions of Exodites and Corsairs elsewhere, let them stay in the fluff, or OOP, GW doesn't need to dilute the Aeldari range with more half baked factions like Ynnari.

That would be fair if the GW rulesteam wasn't responsible all through 8th for the rules of these which btw not even legends exist for them as of yet.
And it also would be fair f.e. if ynnari were better thought out then corsairs, which they most certainly weren't so if any halfbaked faction should bite the bullet then most certainly it would be the ynnari if we regard quality as the sole perpetrator of that.

 Tyranid Horde wrote:

I really don't think dual kits would do aspect warriors justice, the only thing they have in common is that they're aspect warriors and eldar, so they share the same bodies and then what? They're all unique in terms of weapons, runes, armour, helmets and other trinkets, a dual kit wouldn't actually be any good in preserving their flavour.

Some of the 'flavour' for them comes from posing and general accoutrements.
Dark Reapers and Fire Dragons lend themselves to a heavier armor build with a bit more 'static' posing tied to their weapons. They aren't doing flips and stuff.
Warp Spiders and Striking Scorpions have a similar build for their armor, coupled with a similar 'stalking' aesthetic for their background.
Dire Avengers need a refresh, if only to bump the kit size up or maybe to add a few new Exarch options. Coupling them with Swooping Hawks allows for an interesting bit not unlike we're seeing with the Orlock Wreckers going up this weekend, as the bodies have two separate sets of legs for the 'flying' or 'ground' bodies.

The helmets, runes, and weapons are things that would be the big necessity for identity. And if you've built some of the dual kits lately, they're 100% doable.

Regarding whether some armies need it more or not, Eldar do more than Orks and Guard. 15 year old plus sculpts that are still in finecast need it more.

Nobody's denying that the Finecast/resin/whatever you wanna call it these days needs to go. But there's kits in plastic that are just as old if not older. The Basilisk, for example, literally cannot be built without them having added the Vehicle Accessories sprue since the Chimera frame with the Heavy Bolter is not included.

A new Avatar of Khaine, of Greater Daemon scale and with rules to match, would be interesting. Slightly blinged out Striking Scorpions that are instantly forgettable on the table would not.

 Jack Flask wrote:

The DG and TS 'dexs have almost nothing in common with the main CSM dex. It's not like SM where DA, BA, and SW where, despite their fans constant insistence, the vast majority of the units were shared and even the variant entries were just a couple of additional wargear options or an extra special rule.

It'd honestly be more nonsensical for DG and TS to become CSM supplements as they are.

speaking of spicy takes.

You really think that DG and TS have less differences then SW to normal Marines.
There are 20+ datasheets with specific exceptions for the wolves in the marine codex. There are 5 units SW can not use. There about 30 index unique data sheets for SW.
The exceptions for SW are confusing and convoluted. Some exceptions changing unit size, some wargear options, some just keywords. Some units have functional equivilants in the index, some units interacting with some logical synergies where others do not ... and the supplement will bring even more exceptions and confusion. we can see that already by how the keywords have been set up. This was nothing but a cash grab to sell players two books and it makes playing some of these sub factions (especially SW) way way way more confusing then just releasing their own unique datasheets instead of these marine datasheets that will have tons of exceptions... can you imagine how it is going to look after the supplements add wolf gaurd squade leader options to each unit, its going to be a hot mess to figure out...

but hey... i guess you got plague marines ,,, oh right,,, grey hunters XD ,,,, ooohhhh you got unique vehicles.... ya SW got a few of those...... unique elite slots , yup wulfen .... fast attack,,, yup thunderwolves.... so SW have unique sculpts, unique varients, unique unit composition (a vetran in each squad is not the same as a unit sgt for those of you who think its the same thing, the units ALSO have unit sgts) , unique unit sizes, unique abilities and unique upgrades.... Deathgaurd and TS are no where near as unique to CSM as SW is to SM ... but hey, i guess they all use bolt guns right.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:

I really don't think dual kits would do aspect warriors justice, the only thing they have in common is that they're aspect warriors and eldar, so they share the same bodies and then what? They're all unique in terms of weapons, runes, armour, helmets and other trinkets, a dual kit wouldn't actually be any good in preserving their flavour.

Some of the 'flavour' for them comes from posing and general accoutrements.
Dark Reapers and Fire Dragons lend themselves to a heavier armor build with a bit more 'static' posing tied to their weapons. They aren't doing flips and stuff.
Warp Spiders and Striking Scorpions have a similar build for their armor, coupled with a similar 'stalking' aesthetic for their background.
Dire Avengers need a refresh, if only to bump the kit size up or maybe to add a few new Exarch options. Coupling them with Swooping Hawks allows for an interesting bit not unlike we're seeing with the Orlock Wreckers going up this weekend, as the bodies have two separate sets of legs for the 'flying' or 'ground' bodies.

The helmets, runes, and weapons are things that would be the big necessity for identity. And if you've built some of the dual kits lately, they're 100% doable.

Regarding whether some armies need it more or not, Eldar do more than Orks and Guard. 15 year old plus sculpts that are still in finecast need it more.

Nobody's denying that the Finecast/resin/whatever you wanna call it these days needs to go. But there's kits in plastic that are just as old if not older. The Basilisk, for example, literally cannot be built without them having added the Vehicle Accessories sprue since the Chimera frame with the Heavy Bolter is not included.

Sure, if you want to just gloss over the fact they have their own armour types and are armoured in different places. They're not space marines so don't lend themselves well to a dual kit. The only kit that is viable as a dual kit would be Shining Spears, akin to the warlock/farseer jetbike kit, which is a literal head swap.

If you want to talk about plastics, Vypers get their stock options in the box with no option for an underslung shuriken cannon or heavy weapons. The Falcon is 24 years old with a tooling that is ageing and it doesn't have access to an underslung shuriken cannon or the vehicle upgrade bits. The only complete grav tank kit is the Fire Prism/Night Spinner combo, which has options for star engines, vectored engines and spirit stones as well as an underslung cannon. So it's not just our finecast stuff that needs an update.

Thinking about it, wouldn’t it make sense for Orks to go to 2W in their new book?
They are supposed to be tough as nails and can shrug off absurd damage and keep fighting.
Keep the crappy 6+ save and up their wound count.
Feels like it makes sense.

I think 2021 could be a real milestone for GW as long as they give SM the new supplements and then leave it at that. they need to give the rest of the armies the same love and attention this year that’s SM have had for a while and the Necrons got with indomitus.

If we get another year of 80% SM then it will suck and they have missed an opportunity

 dan2026 wrote:
Thinking about it, wouldn’t it make sense for Orks to go to 2W in their new book?
They are supposed to be tough as nails and can shrug off absurd damage and keep fighting.
Keep the crappy 6+ save and up their wound count.
Feels like it makes sense.

Hard to wound and survive hits that would incapacitate a human = T4

Dudeface wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
Thinking about it, wouldn’t it make sense for Orks to go to 2W in their new book?
They are supposed to be tough as nails and can shrug off absurd damage and keep fighting.
Keep the crappy 6+ save and up their wound count.
Feels like it makes sense.

Hard to wound and survive hits that would incapacitate a human = T4

We both know in game terms that means nothing.
T4 does nothing to protect Orks.

 dan2026 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
Thinking about it, wouldn’t it make sense for Orks to go to 2W in their new book?
They are supposed to be tough as nails and can shrug off absurd damage and keep fighting.
Keep the crappy 6+ save and up their wound count.
Feels like it makes sense.

Hard to wound and survive hits that would incapacitate a human = T4

We both know in game terms that means nothing.
T4 does nothing to protect Orks.

Maybe but the fluff doesn't immediately support 2w, then you also need to raise points which drops bodies, which drops attacks making them less deadly. It's not a simple puzzle.

Dudeface wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
Thinking about it, wouldn’t it make sense for Orks to go to 2W in their new book?
They are supposed to be tough as nails and can shrug off absurd damage and keep fighting.
Keep the crappy 6+ save and up their wound count.
Feels like it makes sense.

Hard to wound and survive hits that would incapacitate a human = T4

Hard to wound and survive hits that would incapacitate a human = T4
Power Armor rather than Carapace Armor = Sv3+ instead of Sv4+

And then...W2???

Seems the game dun changed.

Personally though, I don't want w2 orks. The way I'd split out the various types of toughness/survivability in the game would be:

1) Armor Saves, 1-2 wounds: Armies whose toughness is Hard, but Brittle. Marines, Sisters, Necrons. Should have inbulit vulnerability to fixed-damage antielite weaponry with lots of AP, and should have low toughness.

2) High toughness, wound ignore mechanics, morale ignore mechanics: Armies who are big and brutish and just shrug off solid hits, like Orks and Nids and Nurgle. This is why I'd like to see T5 orks personally if orks are going to have a durability bump.

3) high wounds, low sv, low toughness: Armies whose durability is quantity over quality. Guard, GSC, swarm units in general. I'd rather see swarms ignore multidamage weaponry entirely (maximum 1 damage taken per wound) and always suffer max Blast.

4) Invuln saves and - to hit and wound mechanics: Fast, magical or tricky armies like drukhari harlequins eldar and daemons.

Personally I like the way 9th seems to be headed with the different approaches to durability. My biggest adjustments would be:

-Adjust the to-hit to-wound cap to allow for -1/+1 from modifiers to the FIRING model, and -1/+1 from modifiers to the TARGET model. Abilities on the target model's datasheet or stratagems used by the target model are modifiers to the target, firing Heavy while moving, advancing and shooting assault, shooting over dense cover and the odd Debuff psychic power are modifiers to the firing model. Allow for a cumulative -2, and that way playing as an army that relies on -1 doesn't just magically grant your opponent the ability to advance and fire all their assault weapons without penalty.

-Change up vehicles to better reflect the different ways infantry are durable. Nid and Nurgle and Ork vehicles and monsters should have higher toughness, higher wounds, lower Sv and it should be more common for marine and Tau and CWE monsters and vehicles to have 2+ save rather than 3+ save.

Personally I think 2 wounds make more sense for Orks than T5.
Perhaps it would be unbalanced, I don’t know.
But if Boys go to T5, Nobz would probably have to be T6 and that feels too high.
But Boys with 2 wounds and Nobz with 3, feels more reasonable.

I'm hopeful for EC finally getting their time in the sun. Years of hints aside, the impending Slaanesh mortals in AoS & Direchasm have me thinking that 2021 might finally be my year.

At the very least, give me some damn Noise Marines...

Other than that I'll put my foot on the Eldar bandwagon. Wouldn't be surprised to see them arriving at around the same time as EC. Absolutely no idea how they could handle the release though because Eldar need an absurd number of kits.

the_scotsman wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
Thinking about it, wouldn’t it make sense for Orks to go to 2W in their new book?
They are supposed to be tough as nails and can shrug off absurd damage and keep fighting.
Keep the crappy 6+ save and up their wound count.
Feels like it makes sense.

Hard to wound and survive hits that would incapacitate a human = T4

Hard to wound and survive hits that would incapacitate a human = T4
Power Armor rather than Carapace Armor = Sv3+ instead of Sv4+

And then...W2???

Seems the game dun changed.

Personally though, I don't want w2 orks. The way I'd split out the various types of toughness/survivability in the game would be:

1) Armor Saves, 1-2 wounds: Armies whose toughness is Hard, but Brittle. Marines, Sisters, Necrons. Should have inbulit vulnerability to fixed-damage antielite weaponry with lots of AP, and should have low toughness.

2) High toughness, wound ignore mechanics, morale ignore mechanics: Armies who are big and brutish and just shrug off solid hits, like Orks and Nids and Nurgle. This is why I'd like to see T5 orks personally if orks are going to have a durability bump.

3) high wounds, low sv, low toughness: Armies whose durability is quantity over quality. Guard, GSC, swarm units in general. I'd rather see swarms ignore multidamage weaponry entirely (maximum 1 damage taken per wound) and always suffer max Blast.

4) Invuln saves and - to hit and wound mechanics: Fast, magical or tricky armies like drukhari harlequins eldar and daemons.

Personally I like the way 9th seems to be headed with the different approaches to durability. My biggest adjustments would be:

-Adjust the to-hit to-wound cap to allow for -1/+1 from modifiers to the FIRING model, and -1/+1 from modifiers to the TARGET model. Abilities on the target model's datasheet or stratagems used by the target model are modifiers to the target, firing Heavy while moving, advancing and shooting assault, shooting over dense cover and the odd Debuff psychic power are modifiers to the firing model. Allow for a cumulative -2, and that way playing as an army that relies on -1 doesn't just magically grant your opponent the ability to advance and fire all their assault weapons without penalty.

-Change up vehicles to better reflect the different ways infantry are durable. Nid and Nurgle and Ork vehicles and monsters should have higher toughness, higher wounds, lower Sv and it should be more common for marine and Tau and CWE monsters and vehicles to have 2+ save rather than 3+ save.

Lots of good suggestions, regards the point at hand initially marines need more grievous wounds to die than a standard ork boy? A Boy can lose an arm and bleed out, a marine won't for example, hence 2 wounds. If you go down that rabbit hole you have to start asking why a captain can magically survive more damage than any other marine. What about a commisar means he can eat multiple bolter rounds suddenly etc.