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the_scotsman wrote: I mean, do they? You can literally take an ork's head, slap it back on their neck and stitch it together and he survives. That's what they just did to ghazghkull.
It sure doesn't SEEM like physiologically an astartes is hardier. And honestly, it doesn't make a whole hell of a lot of sense for orks to have blood period, their insides ought to be spongy fungal tissue.
The main reasoning I don't think T4 W2 is a good model for orks is because it introduces a weakness to D2 weaponry that I don't think makes any sense, and I also don't want to give up the orks' identity as having a significant numerical advantage over their opponents. A w2 ork boy would probably be a ~10pt model, compared to like a 13pt necron warrior it just doesn't seem like the armies would be distinct enough.
Nobs are currently W2 boyz, they wouldn't have to be T6. They could retain the same stat differential as now.
the "they can survive losing a head" argument I always thought was an odd one, given that casualty =/ killed in the game.
I agree COMPLETELY though that 2w ork boyz would be a problem from an army identiy POV though. it's why I've long argued that I'd rather see Nobz as troops then see Ork Boyz given a second wound
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
@mrFickle - I don't have a link handy but Doomrider was a Demon Prince in the 3rd ed CSM book. Think "Marvel Comics Ghost Rider" but with more ... drugs ...
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
dan2026 wrote: Thinking about it, wouldn’t it make sense for Orks to go to 2W in their new book?
They are supposed to be tough as nails and can shrug off absurd damage and keep fighting.
Keep the crappy 6+ save and up their wound count.
Feels like it makes sense.
I'd rather Orkz go to T5 honestly, 2W hordes seem silly to me. T5 makes them significantly more durable vs most damage but still go down to a single wound getting through their 6+ save armor. Conversely I wouldn't mind them getting rid of 6+ armor entirely and switching it to 6+ FNP which a dok can buff to 5+ by being near him, than snakebites could get this to a 4+ with their Klan trait, this provides some fluff and actually makes snakebites....good. (Weird right?)
The reason I don't want 2 wounds besides the fact that it would be a bit silly in a horde, is because honestly it wouldn't increase their toughness all that much, especially when I can almost guarantee GW won't price them correctly. Marines got a 2nd wound for 3pts, I will bet you they price ork boyz 2nd wound at 3pts or more, which would make them 11-14pts per model, and thereby kill any chance of them being a "horde". It already feels wrong that a 30 mob of boyz is 240pts, 7th edition they were meh at best and they were 180pts.
Maybe. Personally, I would welcome smaller, more powerful units for more points but it would definitely change the entire feel of the army. 2W marines "feel" right when you play with or against them, I doubt that orks would feel right.
That said, most infantry units orks have don't work because they cost, fight and shoot as much as marines, but have the durability of guardsmen, so 2 wounds might be the solution to that.
Exactly....except the shoot part. A Tac Marine is now 5ish times more durable than an Ork boy. Takes 12 bolter HITS to kill 1 Tac Marine where as it takes 2.3 to kill a Boy, Shooting wise, those Tac Marines have 6' more distance and shoot AS much as a shoota boy, except the shoota hits on 5s where as the tac hits on 3s. I think upping Shoota's to 3 shots each would be a step in the right direction. As far as fighting, -1AP to choppas fixes a lot of those issues.
No imo. I can see giving nobz and Warbosses, etc an additional wound or two, but not the boys. The fluff says Orks are capable of living through horrendous damage and surviving, but if you read anything involving Orks - the boys die very easily. The basic frontline boy is the smallest/weakest for of Ork (until you go a level down to grots etc), and seems to be put down fairly easily by most basic weapons. I always read this as - if you get a painboy out to the field soon enough post-battle, he can probably save some boys that, were they human, would already be very dead, but that it's really the nobz and up that can take that kind of hit and actually remain combat effective.
Ghaz was an Ork boy when he got blasted in the head by a bolter. He lived LOL. He was carried off the field of battle and back to the Ork camp where he was fixed by Mad Dok which made him into the Beast that he is today. Fluff wise there are dozens of stories where an ork loses a Limb and is only mildly inconvenienced by it, there's stories where an ork is cut in half and keeps fighting, there are other stories where an ork gets his head blown off and the body keeps fighting until put down. So I don't know what fluff you are reading but it completely contradicts the stories I have read.
the_scotsman wrote: Apothecary: 90pts+1CP
5A on the charge with an astartes chainsword
M6 T4 W4 Sv3+
Heals 2 models for 3 wounds, not CORE-limited
6" aura of non-CORE limited 6+FNP Returns 1 model from any INFANTRY or BIKER unit within 3" each turn.
Technomancer with Cloak: 80pts
M10 T4 W4 Sv4+
A1 with an AP-2 melee weapon
Assault 3 S5 AP-2 D1 18" range shooting weapon
Returns 1 model from any CORE unit within 6" each turn, or D3 warriors
Heals 1 model within 3" for D3 wounds.
Honestly, other than the Necron CORE system sucking absolute donkey ass, the cryptek and Chief apothecary seem relatively comparable.
6+FNP on the apothecary is nice, sure, and if you happen to be within range of 2 units each with a wounded model you can heal twice, but the cryptek has a ranged attack which I'd say he's more likely to be able to actually safely use, he moves 4" faster with FLY, and the apothecary costs 10pts more and 1CP unless you figure you're going to resurrect so rarely you think you'll only use it once.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Honestly, I think the whole revival thing for the apothecary is a side show. I'd just run him totally naked for the FNP. You only need to save like 4 wounds on average with the FNP to make his points back, and then you can spend 1cp to revive a biker or terminator and maybe heal a wound or two...
just on the fact that the Apoth has a more broadly useful passive defensive ability i think makes him a bit better than the cryptek.
Just wanted to take a moment and compare this to an Ork Painboy.
M5 T4 W4 Sv6+
4 Attacks with a Powerklaw
No ranged weapon
Heals wounded infantry/warbikes units within 3' of himself on a 6+ and can heal up to D3 wounds on a roll of 2+. If you roll a 1 he actually inflicts a mortal wound on the intended target. All for 65pts
So slowest by far, least durable by far, healing is on par with them somewhat and has a PK which is nice but you never want to use it because hes a buffing character not a CC beat stick.
To earn its points back that Apothecary has to save 5 bog standard SM's that is it. To make its points back the Painboy needs to save 8-9 Ork boyz. Given its pathetically weak armor save and slow movement teamed with a useless weapon in the form of a PK I think a Painboy should be closer to 40pts not 65.
dan2026 wrote: Thinking about it, wouldn’t it make sense for Orks to go to 2W in their new book?
They are supposed to be tough as nails and can shrug off absurd damage and keep fighting.
Keep the crappy 6+ save and up their wound count.
Feels like it makes sense.
I'd rather Orkz go to T5 honestly, 2W hordes seem silly to me. T5 makes them significantly more durable vs most damage but still go down to a single wound getting through their 6+ save armor. Conversely I wouldn't mind them getting rid of 6+ armor entirely and switching it to 6+ FNP which a dok can buff to 5+ by being near him, than snakebites could get this to a 4+ with their Klan trait, this provides some fluff and actually makes snakebites....good. (Weird right?)
The reason I don't want 2 wounds besides the fact that it would be a bit silly in a horde, is because honestly it wouldn't increase their toughness all that much, especially when I can almost guarantee GW won't price them correctly. Marines got a 2nd wound for 3pts, I will bet you they price ork boyz 2nd wound at 3pts or more, which would make them 11-14pts per model, and thereby kill any chance of them being a "horde". It already feels wrong that a 30 mob of boyz is 240pts, 7th edition they were meh at best and they were 180pts.
Maybe. Personally, I would welcome smaller, more powerful units for more points but it would definitely change the entire feel of the army. 2W marines "feel" right when you play with or against them, I doubt that orks would feel right.
That said, most infantry units orks have don't work because they cost, fight and shoot as much as marines, but have the durability of guardsmen, so 2 wounds might be the solution to that.
Exactly....except the shoot part. A Tac Marine is now 5ish times more durable than an Ork boy. Takes 12 bolter HITS to kill 1 Tac Marine where as it takes 2.3 to kill a Boy, Shooting wise, those Tac Marines have 6' more distance and shoot AS much as a shoota boy, except the shoota hits on 5s where as the tac hits on 3s. I think upping Shoota's to 3 shots each would be a step in the right direction. As far as fighting, -1AP to choppas fixes a lot of those issues.
No imo. I can see giving nobz and Warbosses, etc an additional wound or two, but not the boys. The fluff says Orks are capable of living through horrendous damage and surviving, but if you read anything involving Orks - the boys die very easily. The basic frontline boy is the smallest/weakest for of Ork (until you go a level down to grots etc), and seems to be put down fairly easily by most basic weapons. I always read this as - if you get a painboy out to the field soon enough post-battle, he can probably save some boys that, were they human, would already be very dead, but that it's really the nobz and up that can take that kind of hit and actually remain combat effective.
Ghaz was an Ork boy when he got blasted in the head by a bolter. He lived LOL. He was carried off the field of battle and back to the Ork camp where he was fixed by Mad Dok which made him into the Beast that he is today. Fluff wise there are dozens of stories where an ork loses a Limb and is only mildly inconvenienced by it, there's stories where an ork is cut in half and keeps fighting, there are other stories where an ork gets his head blown off and the body keeps fighting until put down. So I don't know what fluff you are reading but it completely contradicts the stories I have read.
the_scotsman wrote: Apothecary: 90pts+1CP
5A on the charge with an astartes chainsword
M6 T4 W4 Sv3+
Heals 2 models for 3 wounds, not CORE-limited
6" aura of non-CORE limited 6+FNP Returns 1 model from any INFANTRY or BIKER unit within 3" each turn.
Technomancer with Cloak: 80pts
M10 T4 W4 Sv4+
A1 with an AP-2 melee weapon
Assault 3 S5 AP-2 D1 18" range shooting weapon
Returns 1 model from any CORE unit within 6" each turn, or D3 warriors
Heals 1 model within 3" for D3 wounds.
Honestly, other than the Necron CORE system sucking absolute donkey ass, the cryptek and Chief apothecary seem relatively comparable.
6+FNP on the apothecary is nice, sure, and if you happen to be within range of 2 units each with a wounded model you can heal twice, but the cryptek has a ranged attack which I'd say he's more likely to be able to actually safely use, he moves 4" faster with FLY, and the apothecary costs 10pts more and 1CP unless you figure you're going to resurrect so rarely you think you'll only use it once.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Honestly, I think the whole revival thing for the apothecary is a side show. I'd just run him totally naked for the FNP. You only need to save like 4 wounds on average with the FNP to make his points back, and then you can spend 1cp to revive a biker or terminator and maybe heal a wound or two...
just on the fact that the Apoth has a more broadly useful passive defensive ability i think makes him a bit better than the cryptek.
Just wanted to take a moment and compare this to an Ork Painboy.
M5 T4 W4 Sv6+
4 Attacks with a Powerklaw
No ranged weapon
Heals wounded infantry/warbikes units within 3' of himself on a 6+ and can heal up to D3 wounds on a roll of 2+. If you roll a 1 he actually inflicts a mortal wound on the intended target. All for 65pts
So slowest by far, least durable by far, healing is on par with them somewhat and has a PK which is nice but you never want to use it because hes a buffing character not a CC beat stick.
To earn its points back that Apothecary has to save 5 bog standard SM's that is it. To make its points back the Painboy needs to save 8-9 Ork boyz. Given its pathetically weak armor save and slow movement teamed with a useless weapon in the form of a PK I think a Painboy should be closer to 40pts not 65.
The debate over technomancers vs apothecaries was the ability to raise dead models, so I don't think the painboy can compete in this weight bracket sadly.
Ghaz was an Ork boy when he got blasted in the head by a bolter. He lived LOL. He was carried off the field of battle and back to the Ork camp where he was fixed by Mad Dok which made him into the Beast that he is today. Fluff wise there are dozens of stories where an ork loses a Limb and is only mildly inconvenienced by it, there's stories where an ork is cut in half and keeps fighting, there are other stories where an ork gets his head blown off and the body keeps fighting until put down. So I don't know what fluff you are reading but it completely contradicts the stories I have read.
Right - exactly. The Ghaz story proves what I'm saying. Ghaz lived but could NOT continue the fight. He had to be carried off. That's the whole point. An Ork can live through horrendous damage, but that damage DOES render them combat ineffective in the moment. And that's what counts for the rules of the game. Yeah, an ork can theoretically survive having its head removed - but it cannot continue to fight when that happens. I've never read a story where an Ork literally has its head removed and keeps fighting. lol Maybe a last spasm, but not actually fighting. How would that even happen?
And there are numerous stories of wave after wave of Ork boys being put down by massed las-rifle fire. One of the weakest guns in the whole game. In one of the more recent books (Blood of Iax I think it is), Guardsman hold a massive Waaaagh at bay for an extended period of time with nothing but las-rifles and the support of a Chaplain, and a squad or two of Primaris. The basic boys absolutely die in droves. Easily. A single Repulsor actually kills hundreds of boys before it's eventually captured. Yes, the basic boy can LIVE having received unbelievably traumatic damage ... but more often that not, he cannot fight with that damage.
T5 on a basic boy is probably the most I would do tbh. They actually aren't that tough in actual practice. They just aren't. The most realistic thing might be to give them an advantage in survivability and battle scars in the Crusade system. Because that's where a basic boy's toughness really comes into play - living through the damage that stopped him fighting. That said, Nobz and Warbosses probably do need to be tougher. More wounds or a FnP maybe ...
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
Ghaz was an Ork boy when he got blasted in the head by a bolter. He lived LOL. He was carried off the field of battle and back to the Ork camp where he was fixed by Mad Dok which made him into the Beast that he is today. Fluff wise there are dozens of stories where an ork loses a Limb and is only mildly inconvenienced by it, there's stories where an ork is cut in half and keeps fighting, there are other stories where an ork gets his head blown off and the body keeps fighting until put down. So I don't know what fluff you are reading but it completely contradicts the stories I have read.
Right - exactly. The Ghaz story proves what I'm saying. Ghaz lived but could NOT continue the fight. He had to be carried off. That's the whole point. An Ork can live through horrendous damage, but that damage DOES render them combat ineffective in the moment. And that's what counts for the rules of the game. Yeah, an ork can theoretically survive having its head removed - but it cannot continue to fight when that happens. I've never read a story where an Ork literally has its head removed and keeps fighting. lol Maybe a last spasm, but not actually fighting. How would that even happen?
And there are numerous stories of wave after wave of Ork boys being put down by massed las-rifle fire. One of the weakest guns in the whole game. In one of the more recent books (Blood of Iax I think it is), Guardsman hold a massive Waaaagh at bay for an extended period of time with nothing but las-rifles and the support of a Chaplain, and a squad or two of Primaris. The basic boys absolutely die in droves. Easily. A single Repulsor actually kills hundreds of boys before it's eventually captured. Yes, the basic boy can LIVE having received unbelievably traumatic damage ... but more often that not, he cannot fight with that damage.
T5 on a basic boy is probably the most I would do tbh. They actually aren't that tough in actual practice. They just aren't. The most realistic thing might be to give them an advantage in survivability and battle scars in the Crusade system. Because that's where a basic boy's toughness really comes into play - living through the damage that stopped him fighting. That said, Nobz and Warbosses probably do need to be tougher. More wounds or a FnP maybe ...
I suggest you go read more fluff than lol. In the Commissar Cain series, he constantly mentions how ridiculously tough Orkz are. And I believe in one of his books he mentions how they chopped the head off an ork and it was still swinging at him until he knocked it down.
But lets take it back from the worst possible dmg, IE headshots removing heads etc and realize that most wounds would be body shots and losing a limb, and orkz are in the fluff constantly taking shots like this and shrugging it off as if its nothing.
As far as the other half of the fluff goes, where 10 Marines and a pineapple manage to kill half a billion orkz? Well, you can't have the heroes of the game dying to NPCs can we? Reasonably sure we've had a nice long debate on Space Marines being OP as all hell in the fluff. A single Tac Marine took on an entire Dark Eldar Raiding party in "Brothers of the Snake" book by Dan Abnett.
I suggest you go read more fluff than lol. In the Commissar Cain series, he constantly mentions how ridiculously tough Orkz are. And I believe in one of his books he mentions how they chopped the head off an ork and it was still swinging at him until he knocked it down.
Read 'em. Yes it "kept swinging" but it wasn't actually combat effective was it? No. And in those same books - what often brings down masses of boyz? Las-rifles ... the worst gun in the game.
But lets take it back from the worst possible dmg, IE headshots removing heads etc and realize that most wounds would be body shots and losing a limb, and orkz are in the fluff constantly taking shots like this and shrugging it off as if its nothing.
Sometimes yes, and sometimes no, but if you have to go that far into the weeds to justify it, it's probably not something that should be reflected in the rules. Although again, I will say Bosses and Nobz are probably too weak atm.
As far as the other half of the fluff goes, where 10 Marines and a pineapple manage to kill half a billion orkz? Well, you can't have the heroes of the game dying to NPCs can we? Reasonably sure we've had a nice long debate on Space Marines being OP as all hell in the fluff. A single Tac Marine took on an entire Dark Eldar Raiding party in "Brothers of the Snake" book by Dan Abnett.
Yes, and yet, the fluff is consistent with Orks. Masses of boyz are tough if they get in close because they hit hard and have many attacks but those same masses are brought down by the score using ... pretty much ANY ranged weapon ...
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
Ghaz was an Ork boy when he got blasted in the head by a bolter. He lived LOL. He was carried off the field of battle and back to the Ork camp where he was fixed by Mad Dok which made him into the Beast that he is today. Fluff wise there are dozens of stories where an ork loses a Limb and is only mildly inconvenienced by it, there's stories where an ork is cut in half and keeps fighting, there are other stories where an ork gets his head blown off and the body keeps fighting until put down. So I don't know what fluff you are reading but it completely contradicts the stories I have read.
Right - exactly. The Ghaz story proves what I'm saying. Ghaz lived but could NOT continue the fight. He had to be carried off. That's the whole point. An Ork can live through horrendous damage, but that damage DOES render them combat ineffective in the moment. And that's what counts for the rules of the game. Yeah, an ork can theoretically survive having its head removed - but it cannot continue to fight when that happens. I've never read a story where an Ork literally has its head removed and keeps fighting. lol Maybe a last spasm, but not actually fighting. How would that even happen?
And there are numerous stories of wave after wave of Ork boys being put down by massed las-rifle fire. One of the weakest guns in the whole game. In one of the more recent books (Blood of Iax I think it is), Guardsman hold a massive Waaaagh at bay for an extended period of time with nothing but las-rifles and the support of a Chaplain, and a squad or two of Primaris. The basic boys absolutely die in droves. Easily. A single Repulsor actually kills hundreds of boys before it's eventually captured. Yes, the basic boy can LIVE having received unbelievably traumatic damage ... but more often that not, he cannot fight with that damage.
T5 on a basic boy is probably the most I would do tbh. They actually aren't that tough in actual practice. They just aren't. The most realistic thing might be to give them an advantage in survivability and battle scars in the Crusade system. Because that's where a basic boy's toughness really comes into play - living through the damage that stopped him fighting. That said, Nobz and Warbosses probably do need to be tougher. More wounds or a FnP maybe ...
I suggest you go read more fluff than lol. In the Commissar Cain series, he constantly mentions how ridiculously tough Orkz are. And I believe in one of his books he mentions how they chopped the head off an ork and it was still swinging at him until he knocked it down.
But lets take it back from the worst possible dmg, IE headshots removing heads etc and realize that most wounds would be body shots and losing a limb, and orkz are in the fluff constantly taking shots like this and shrugging it off as if its nothing.
As far as the other half of the fluff goes, where 10 Marines and a pineapple manage to kill half a billion orkz? Well, you can't have the heroes of the game dying to NPCs can we? Reasonably sure we've had a nice long debate on Space Marines being OP as all hell in the fluff. A single Tac Marine took on an entire Dark Eldar Raiding party in "Brothers of the Snake" book by Dan Abnett.
This the same commisar cain who defeats ork encampments with civilians and military dregs armed with lasguns from memory on one of his first missions? Been a while since I read it but pretty sure they took down a load of orks and stole some vehicles armed with nothing but small arms and surprise.
Blastaar wrote: Regardless of how tough Orks are in the fluff, tracking wounds on a blob of 30 3W minis is impractical.
Not really? It would never be more than one dice.
The whole point would be lowering model count by doubling the wounds though, so orks would max out 15 oder maybe 20 instead of 30.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Ghaz was an Ork boy when he got blasted in the head by a bolter. He lived LOL. He was carried off the field of battle and back to the Ork camp where he was fixed by Mad Dok which made him into the Beast that he is today. Fluff wise there are dozens of stories where an ork loses a Limb and is only mildly inconvenienced by it, there's stories where an ork is cut in half and keeps fighting, there are other stories where an ork gets his head blown off and the body keeps fighting until put down. So I don't know what fluff you are reading but it completely contradicts the stories I have read.
Right - exactly. The Ghaz story proves what I'm saying. Ghaz lived but could NOT continue the fight. He had to be carried off. That's the whole point. An Ork can live through horrendous damage, but that damage DOES render them combat ineffective in the moment. And that's what counts for the rules of the game. Yeah, an ork can theoretically survive having its head removed - but it cannot continue to fight when that happens. I've never read a story where an Ork literally has its head removed and keeps fighting. lol Maybe a last spasm, but not actually fighting. How would that even happen?
And there are numerous stories of wave after wave of Ork boys being put down by massed las-rifle fire. One of the weakest guns in the whole game. In one of the more recent books (Blood of Iax I think it is), Guardsman hold a massive Waaaagh at bay for an extended period of time with nothing but las-rifles and the support of a Chaplain, and a squad or two of Primaris. The basic boys absolutely die in droves. Easily. A single Repulsor actually kills hundreds of boys before it's eventually captured. Yes, the basic boy can LIVE having received unbelievably traumatic damage ... but more often that not, he cannot fight with that damage.
T5 on a basic boy is probably the most I would do tbh. They actually aren't that tough in actual practice. They just aren't. The most realistic thing might be to give them an advantage in survivability and battle scars in the Crusade system. Because that's where a basic boy's toughness really comes into play - living through the damage that stopped him fighting. That said, Nobz and Warbosses probably do need to be tougher. More wounds or a FnP maybe ...
I suggest you go read more fluff than lol. In the Commissar Cain series, he constantly mentions how ridiculously tough Orkz are. And I believe in one of his books he mentions how they chopped the head off an ork and it was still swinging at him until he knocked it down.
But lets take it back from the worst possible dmg, IE headshots removing heads etc and realize that most wounds would be body shots and losing a limb, and orkz are in the fluff constantly taking shots like this and shrugging it off as if its nothing.
As far as the other half of the fluff goes, where 10 Marines and a pineapple manage to kill half a billion orkz? Well, you can't have the heroes of the game dying to NPCs can we? Reasonably sure we've had a nice long debate on Space Marines being OP as all hell in the fluff. A single Tac Marine took on an entire Dark Eldar Raiding party in "Brothers of the Snake" book by Dan Abnett.
This the same commisar cain who defeats ork encampments with civilians and military dregs armed with lasguns from memory on one of his first missions? Been a while since I read it but pretty sure they took down a load of orks and stole some vehicles armed with nothing but small arms and surprise.
And exploding fuel depots, dams and other desperate environmental shenanigans. The 'military dregs' also link up with other elements really fast, and get hold of a well-supplied ammo dump early on, with a Russ, multiple chimeras and missile launchers (actually they have one of the latter for the first attack)
But there are loads of instances in the Cain books where orks were shot or even dismembered but get back up and keep attacking.
Ghaz was an Ork boy when he got blasted in the head by a bolter. He lived LOL. He was carried off the field of battle and back to the Ork camp where he was fixed by Mad Dok which made him into the Beast that he is today. Fluff wise there are dozens of stories where an ork loses a Limb and is only mildly inconvenienced by it, there's stories where an ork is cut in half and keeps fighting, there are other stories where an ork gets his head blown off and the body keeps fighting until put down. So I don't know what fluff you are reading but it completely contradicts the stories I have read.
Right - exactly. The Ghaz story proves what I'm saying. Ghaz lived but could NOT continue the fight. He had to be carried off. That's the whole point. An Ork can live through horrendous damage, but that damage DOES render them combat ineffective in the moment. And that's what counts for the rules of the game. Yeah, an ork can theoretically survive having its head removed - but it cannot continue to fight when that happens. I've never read a story where an Ork literally has its head removed and keeps fighting. lol Maybe a last spasm, but not actually fighting. How would that even happen?
And there are numerous stories of wave after wave of Ork boys being put down by massed las-rifle fire. One of the weakest guns in the whole game. In one of the more recent books (Blood of Iax I think it is), Guardsman hold a massive Waaaagh at bay for an extended period of time with nothing but las-rifles and the support of a Chaplain, and a squad or two of Primaris. The basic boys absolutely die in droves. Easily. A single Repulsor actually kills hundreds of boys before it's eventually captured. Yes, the basic boy can LIVE having received unbelievably traumatic damage ... but more often that not, he cannot fight with that damage.
T5 on a basic boy is probably the most I would do tbh. They actually aren't that tough in actual practice. They just aren't. The most realistic thing might be to give them an advantage in survivability and battle scars in the Crusade system. Because that's where a basic boy's toughness really comes into play - living through the damage that stopped him fighting. That said, Nobz and Warbosses probably do need to be tougher. More wounds or a FnP maybe ...
I suggest you go read more fluff than lol. In the Commissar Cain series, he constantly mentions how ridiculously tough Orkz are. And I believe in one of his books he mentions how they chopped the head off an ork and it was still swinging at him until he knocked it down.
But lets take it back from the worst possible dmg, IE headshots removing heads etc and realize that most wounds would be body shots and losing a limb, and orkz are in the fluff constantly taking shots like this and shrugging it off as if its nothing.
As far as the other half of the fluff goes, where 10 Marines and a pineapple manage to kill half a billion orkz? Well, you can't have the heroes of the game dying to NPCs can we? Reasonably sure we've had a nice long debate on Space Marines being OP as all hell in the fluff. A single Tac Marine took on an entire Dark Eldar Raiding party in "Brothers of the Snake" book by Dan Abnett.
This the same commisar cain who defeats ork encampments with civilians and military dregs armed with lasguns from memory on one of his first missions? Been a while since I read it but pretty sure they took down a load of orks and stole some vehicles armed with nothing but small arms and surprise.
And exploding fuel depots, dams and other desperate environmental shenanigans. The 'military dregs' also link up with other elements really fast, and get hold of a well-supplied ammo dump early on, with a Russ, multiple chimeras and missile launchers (actually they have one of the latter for the first attack)
But there are loads of instances in the Cain books where orks were shot or even dismembered but get back up and keep attacking.
Interesting point this train of thought led me to, I'm sure earlier tau codex entries used to say that kroot were a match for orks in a fight more or less, how would that factor into the 2w orks? 2w kroot?
If anything Orks should have some FNP saves. Something like a 6+ FNP for Boyz equivalents and maybe a 5+ FNP for Nob equivalents. Wound bloat is already got excessive in 8th/9th.
"Hold my shoota, I'm goin in"
Armies (7th edition points)
7000+ Points Death Skullz
4000 Points
+ + 3000 Points "The Fiery Heart of the Emperor"
3500 Points "Void Kraken" Space Marines
3000 Points "Bard's Booze Cruise"
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Interesting point this train of thought led me to, I'm sure earlier tau codex entries used to say that kroot were a match for orks in a fight more or less, how would that factor into the 2w orks? 2w kroot?
Honestly don't care, because that's never actually been true.
Toughness isn't their hallmark regardless.
Vankraken wrote: If anything Orks should have some FNP saves. Something like a 6+ FNP for Boyz equivalents and maybe a 5+ FNP for Nob equivalents. Wound bloat is already got excessive in 8th/9th.
No thank you. The amount of extra dice rolling would slow the game down even more than moving the big blobs does.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Vankraken wrote: If anything Orks should have some FNP saves. Something like a 6+ FNP for Boyz equivalents and maybe a 5+ FNP for Nob equivalents. Wound bloat is already got excessive in 8th/9th.
No thank you. The amount of extra dice rolling would slow the game down even more than moving the big blobs does.
As if Dakka x 3 wasn't bad enough and couldn't be shortcut by BS 4 + ....
Grumbles in ancient ork
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
My prediction is that SM will continue to rule the 40k universe.
GW will manage to bring out all 40k codices in 2021 eventually including a new faction.
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Not Online!!! wrote: As if Dakka x 3 wasn't bad enough and couldn't be shortcut by BS 4 + ....
Grumbles in ancient ork
Nooo! Shooting once and hitting twice is one of the best parts of playing orks
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Not Online!!! wrote: As if Dakka x 3 wasn't bad enough and couldn't be shortcut by BS 4 + ....
Grumbles in ancient ork
Nooo! Shooting once and hitting twice is one of the best parts of playing orks
Shhh, the oldz talkin, ok jokes aside, for some weapons it's just moronic, it would slightly increase ork shooting peformance, slightly i believe about 5 % so it would be a buff overall and alot less swingy randumb... Much less time consuming aswell.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/22 10:19:35
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Swingy randumb has been part of the ork identity since ever. The only difference is that this once it has been done properly.
As long as it's not combined with the bad moons trait, dakka³ doesn't take up that much game time anyways and orks have no real access to re-rolls otherwise.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Ork boyz at 2w and 9-10ppm feel fine to me. They would still die to a breeze but ey they would be a little meaty. And it would be much more faster than adding things like FNP (seriously people are you suggesting FNP of 4+ for horde units?)
But personally for Boyz I believe they should be split like in dawn of war between Choppa Boyz and Shottah Boyz with some special rules based in how many you take to make viable both having small squads of 10 shota/choppa boyz and big hordes of them.
Something like for Shota boyz if you have 20+ they have Dakkadakka activated in 5+ and maybe even make shottas 3 shot weapons and if you have a squad that starts the game at 10 you can give them a +1 to hit if they fire inside a trukk? Or something like that. I'm no ork expert.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/22 11:03:19
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Perhaps the issue isn't whether orks should be 2 wounds or not compared to marines, but maybe the wounds system needs exploding out a little further generally.
I'd argue that is exactly what they are doing right now.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Jidmah wrote: I'd argue that is exactly what they are doing right now.
Should've done that in a bit broader scale imo, especially for regular vehicles where not much happened...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/22 12:06:23
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Dudeface wrote: Perhaps the issue isn't whether orks should be 2 wounds or not compared to marines, but maybe the wounds system needs exploding out a little further generally.
We know this isn't happening. If "the durable faction" did not get extra wounds, this is just yet another in a long line of cakes marines get to have and eat too.
I did see a (totally unsubstantiated) rumor that the Eldar army-wide rework bonus was going to be "-1 to hit if the model moved this turn, +1BS if the model didn't move" which I really REALLY hope they don't do, because army-wide -1 to hit would feel like absolute garbage to play with currently. It basically hands your opponents army-wide move and shoot heavy, army-wide advance and shoot assault, army-wide ignore dense cover, etc.
"my eldar is faster, he moves 7"
"oh well, all my orks move 5+D6 now, so, guess not."
Army wide -1 to hit doesn't work as a mechanic within 9th. Even playing vs a single flyer inevitably feels dumb at some point because anything that wants to target the flyer just suddenly starts sprinting around and repositioning freely because whatever, you're gonna be at -1 anyway might as well.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Dudeface wrote: Perhaps the issue isn't whether orks should be 2 wounds or not compared to marines, but maybe the wounds system needs exploding out a little further generally.
We know this isn't happening. If "the durable faction" did not get extra wounds, this is just yet another in a long line of cakes marines get to have and eat too.
I did see a (totally unsubstantiated) rumor that the Eldar army-wide rework bonus was going to be "-1 to hit if the model moved this turn, +1BS if the model didn't move" which I really REALLY hope they don't do, because army-wide -1 to hit would feel like absolute garbage to play with currently. It basically hands your opponents army-wide move and shoot heavy, army-wide advance and shoot assault, army-wide ignore dense cover, etc.
"my eldar is faster, he moves 7"
"oh well, all my orks move 5+D6 now, so, guess not."
Army wide -1 to hit doesn't work as a mechanic within 9th. Even playing vs a single flyer inevitably feels dumb at some point because anything that wants to target the flyer just suddenly starts sprinting around and repositioning freely because whatever, you're gonna be at -1 anyway might as well.
We know it isn't, I was wondering if it should, whether GW didn't go far enough.
That's honestly hard to tell with just two codices having gotten their makeover. I'm curious to see what they will do with eldar, nids and custodes, because.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Reasonably sure we've had a nice long debate on Space Marines being 
7000+ Points Death Skullz
4000 Points
+ 
+ 3000 Points "The Fiery Heart of the Emperor"
3000 Points "Bard's Booze Cruise" 
Eldar- 4436 pts
" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever." 
