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Battalions have 6 elites, and unless youre running 2 patrols youre running a batt.
Most of the elites are pretty expensive so running 6 slots of elites is unlikely w/o running min squads of stuff, which necrons dont wanna do.
Yeah for some reason when I watched the video the first time I was thinking only 3 elite slots.
Just watched it again and his argument was actually that he could see more of a use for them if they were 10-15 points less and you could run 3 in one unit so they could deep strike in together for less CP cost. Not related to the number of elite slots it used.
As said - his main advantage is DSing. Or, potentially even better, intercept-DSing. This may not be great - but saying "eh, I'll just bring some warriors over" seems to skip quite a few steps.
What's he going to intercept though. That's where the questions are for me. What's he going to have an appreciable effect on in terms of units you would want to intercept - Terminators? No. Mega Nobz? No. Oblits? No. A unit of Rsut Stalkers? Maybe? If he rolls real well and it's a small unit? He's built to hurt the one thing that doesn't really DS. And for the other things - Deathmarks are generally better.
Swooping Falcons, Scourges, Teleporting Vets, Teleporting Karskins, Fire Dragons (I think they have a deep strike option?), Daemons, ect. There's a lot of stuff in the game that can be effectively intercepted. Whether or not they are meta or used by your opponents is another matter entirely.
The problem isn't the Hexmark. The problem is that a lot of people play marines, which is not what he's designed to kill.
For a blind TOC list he might be worth it to deal with surprises. If you know you are fighting marines there's no point in fielding him.
Anyway, i dont understand all the hate for the hexmark. Yeah hes not ridiculously powerful, hes not trash by any means either.
I think part of it stems from people seeing the preview and naturally drawing comparisons to the Kellermorph. He falls well short of being a Kellermorph. lol
The other part is that, his strength isn't really in killing characters imo, it's in whittling down squads of light infantry. I think a lot of people are wondering why, in an edition that is extremely unmerciful on its own to light infantry, and in a codex that already naturally shreds light infantry, we got something that seems to specialize in killing light infantry?
I think I can see using him as something to try to clear weak back-field objective campers, but even then, I admit there are better things in the book for that. He's just too cool to not at least try to use!
I can see him useful at taking out heavy weapons squads and indirect fire units, as well as being a harassment tool. Suddenly having a unit appear in your opponent's back field and eliminate some mortars or lascannon crew is going to draw your opponent's attention from the rest of your army. He has the character rule so if you can get another unit to deep strike with him they won't be able to shoot him for a while, meaning that's a synergy with him and flayed ones or ophyidians.
This message was edited 10 times. Last update was at 2020/10/19 20:22:42
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
I can see him useful at taking out heavy weapons squads and indirect fire units, as well as being a harassment tool. Suddenly having a unit appear in your back field and eliminate some mortars or lascannon crew is going to draw your opponent's attention from the rest of your army. There's more to the game than just "lol, I shoot many times".
IMO this is one of his best uses. But I still think there are other things in the codex that do even this much better. I think that's the rub. He's a specialist unit without a true specialty. I feel like he needs to be 10 (or more) points cheaper for what you get.
Swooping Falcons, Scourges, Teleporting Vets, Teleporting Karskins, Fire Dragons (I think they have a deep strike option?), Daemons, ect.
There's a lot of stuff in the game that can be effectively intercepted. Whether or not they are meta or used by your opponents is another matter entirely.
Even these, I feel like he struggles to really hurt in a meaningful manner during intercept. People keep saying he's "cheap", but not really. I think for what he does, 75 points is a heavy investment in something like this. I know you can make it better with the relic pistol you can give him, but do you really want to spend a relic on him? IDK - like I said, "trash" feels pretty click-baitey. I do not think he's trash. But he's not great either.
Still, looking forward to trying him out. I love his design.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/19 20:34:44
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
Acolytes and repentia (which are often started in reserve these days) are his main prey. He does decently well against scions and orks being da-jumped, too.
The assault cannon gets 12 shots now? That's just silly.
It does not. I have to correct that. Had the stats for my twin assault canons stuck in my head. I was mistaken! lol
Acolytes and repentia (which are often started in reserve these days) are his main prey. He does decently well against scions and orks being da-jumped, too.
Acolytes and repentia seem like his preferred target. Can you intercept "Da Jumped" boys? I don't think you can. And if they jump a bigger squad of boys, or something like Nobz the Hexmark isn't useful anyway...
But yeah light infantry is clearly what he was meant to kill.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/19 20:37:08
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
The assault cannon gets 12 shots now? That's just silly.
It does not. I have to correct that. Had the stats for my twin assault canons stuck in my head. I was mistaken! lol
Acolytes and repentia (which are often started in reserve these days) are his main prey. He does decently well against scions and orks being da-jumped, too.
Acolytes and repentia seem like his preferred target. Can you intercept "Da Jumped" boys? I don't think you can. And if they jump a bigger squad of boys, or something like Nobz the Hexmark isn't useful anyway...
But yeah light infantry is clearly what he was meant to kill.
Da Jumped counts as coming in from reserves, iirc. I'm not sure if he would be that effective against them, because usually large mobs of boys are jumped. I don't think the Hexmark can kill 30 by himself.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/19 20:43:48
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
I guess the argument is how much damage does a 75 point unit have to do to be *good*/*worthwhile*.
To my mind if you are doing 30-35~ points worth, that's respectable enough. There are some units where you have a good chance of getting this, and some where you don't. There are also some where its going to be a couple of wounds, no kills, and so not do much in the wider circumstances.
Certainly in the video I was left feeling like the guy wanted a model with the damage output of a 160-200 point unit. Which okay, would be more fire and forget - but also quite obnoxious.
Da Jumped counts as coming in from reserves, iirc. I'm not sure if he would be that effective against them, because usually large mobs of boys are jumped. I don't think the Hexmark can kill 30 by himself.
Right. A lot of the things he can hurt, typically come in quantities greater than he can deal with. That's why I'm still looking at using him to kill "backfielders".
Got a loan 10 man Catachan squad chilling on that corner objective? I feel like he's perfect for that as he's still cheaper there than most of the other options and he's likely to at least kill enough of them in one go to have a decent effect on them. Even if he doesn't manage to kill all of them, he'll get the clean-up done next round.
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
He can also perform actions as infantry and there's even a command protocol to allow him to perform both an action and shoot. I think he should have been priced in the 60pt range but he brings flexibility to a list.
He doesn't need to kill a whole squad, he just needs to diminish their combat potential significantly, which you can certainly do against a lot of targets he wants to be shooting, especially if you were smart with your positioning and can put him somewhere where they have to charge him too, so you can then overwatch for another volley.
I don't think he's a great model or anything, but he does the job well against anything that deep-strikes that has 3-4T and a lowish save. He's also good against a bloodletter bomb, for example.
Tycho wrote: I know you can make it better with the relic pistol you can give him, but do you really want to spend a relic on him?
This is one thing that kept occurring to me when I see people mention this nifty relic synergy. It feels like a sunk cost fallacy to expend a relic on a niche unit when there seem to be better uses for the resource. It would also paint a bullseye on him when it seems the best outcome is being ignored so that the peppering can continue.
p5freak wrote: First of all that guy is wrong, you can use more than one hexmark. I dont think the hexmark is useless. He can deepstrike for secondaries like linebreaker or engage on all fronts, or he can react against enemy deepstrikers. You can give him the gauntlet relic thing against hordes. He always hits on 2s, rerolls 1s, and there is no cover against his attacks. Overwatch hits on 2s as well.
Re. Can't take more than 1 Hexmark - I believe he was specifically talking about the fact that the Hexmark takes up and elite slot and you can't take more than 1 per slot. I.e. if you could take 2 or 3 for one elite slot you could do enough damage to justify the loss of an elite slot.
What are you talking about ? A unit of three hexmark models ? Thats not possible, and thats not what the dude on youtube said. He said you could only take one, which isnt true. A battalion has 6 elite slots, and you can take 6 hexmarks, if you want to. The only limit is the number of detachment slots available.
Tycho wrote: I know you can make it better with the relic pistol you can give him, but do you really want to spend a relic on him?
This is one thing that kept occurring to me when I see people mention this nifty relic synergy. It feels like a sunk cost fallacy to expend a relic on a niche unit when there seem to be better uses for the resource. It would also paint a bullseye on him when it seems the best outcome is being ignored so that the peppering can continue.
I agree. Also, the relic is great against hordes while he is much better against lightly armoured elites and there's not often a huge amount of crossover in good targets for both weapon types. Necron relics aren't the best but I think most lists are going to want the Veil and probably the Voltaic Staff too, so are you really going to want to pay for a third relic on top of that? I think the one thing he has going for him is he's in a price range that makes him easy to slot into a lot of lists. He's not absolutely terrible but I do think he's not efficient enough to waste points on in most cases.
It's like a 15 minute batrep but if you're in a hurry:
Spoiler:
Basically a necron destroyer themed army is facing eldar (Yes I'm not switching to aeldari, GW can die mad about it.) and a force of scarabs was left to hold a back corner objective.
The eldar DS a unit of 10 warriors to kill the scarabs and take the objective. The hexmark intercepts them and splats 6 of the space snobs in one attack, the remaining 4 can't kill the scarabs off the objective.
Next turn he pops the remain quartet, holding the objective and ensuring eldar defeat.
So the hexmark may not be worthless after all...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/20 10:53:15
"But the universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed..."
p5freak wrote: First of all that guy is wrong, you can use more than one hexmark. I dont think the hexmark is useless. He can deepstrike for secondaries like linebreaker or engage on all fronts, or he can react against enemy deepstrikers. You can give him the gauntlet relic thing against hordes. He always hits on 2s, rerolls 1s, and there is no cover against his attacks. Overwatch hits on 2s as well.
Re. Can't take more than 1 Hexmark - I believe he was specifically talking about the fact that the Hexmark takes up and elite slot and you can't take more than 1 per slot. I.e. if you could take 2 or 3 for one elite slot you could do enough damage to justify the loss of an elite slot.
What are you talking about ? A unit of three hexmark models ? Thats not possible, and thats not what the dude on youtube said. He said you could only take one, which isnt true. A battalion has 6 elite slots, and you can take 6 hexmarks, if you want to. The only limit is the number of detachment slots available.
Yeah I know - hence the use of the word IF in that sentence.
IF you COULD take them in a unit...
When looking at the unit statline he says he says "You can only take one of them." Then he goes on to talk about how it's competing for Elite slots.
Then towards the end of the video he makes an argument that IF they cost 10-15 points less and IF you could take 1-3 in a unit he could see a use for them.
Taken altogether I assumed he knew you could take more and just thought they were too inefficient alone. But I can understand how someone could watch the video and instead hear 'you're only allowed one in your whole army'. And maybe that is what he meant - I don't really care.
There is a lot of value in the Hexmark against certain armies, it just doesn't seem that great against Primaris.
That battle report example against Eldar, for instance. It's also a hard counter against my 5-man Scourge and Mandrake units that I commonly use for secondary objectives.
If you give it the Veil of Darkness relic can it come in with Dimensional Translocation and then move again with a Core unit in the same phase?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/20 16:04:29
I can't find anything in the base rules saying a unit can't redeploy on the same turn it arrives from reserves, but I thought I remembered some FAQ somewhere saying that.
The relic itself is odd in that it just says "in your movement phase," not "at the end of your movement phase" or "in the reinforcements sub-phase of your movement phase." So RAW it can apparently be used at any point during your movement phase.
The main purpose of the Hexmark Destroyer is to use its deep striking capabilities to apply Command Protocols to units who are out of reach of your Hq choices. Around the 12 minute mark of the video I give an example of this. Against certain armies the hexmark has alpha strike potential as displayed at the 8 minute mark.
If you are using command protocols and you want to ensure that you get the most out of them then having a deep striking character is useful. The amount of damage he can actually do is totally reliant on what your facing so you will have no control over that.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/20 17:25:52
~4100
~1660
