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Tycho wrote:

I find it amusing that the line of reasoning for first born being squatted is "the writing is on the walls", with no actual writing or information to go off of. Then when challenged, the defense is "just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it won't".

There is a large amount of mounting evidence (which most folks have pointed out quite often). We just went an entire edition with no FB release. This has never happened before. Meanwhile, on the CSM side - they just quietly upscaled the marine models. No fan fare, no awkward ham-fisting of a new model line. Nothing. Just upscaled models.

Loyalists on the other hand have seen an unprecedented stream of releases in the Primaris line, coupled with no real updates to the firstborn line over the course of the course of the last several years. Then you look at the fluff - just about every discussion amongst both Chaos Marines and regular marines centers around the inevitability of the old marines being replaced by the Primaris. So yeah, sadly, the writing is actually on the wall. We ar eprobably 5 or more years out from it happening, but it's going to happen.

It's true that classics didn't get a release.

But what would you release for them? They've bern a complete army for at least ten years, and GW has struggled to fit anything new into their army. Any major update would simply be a re-release of a unit that already has a solid plastic kit.

Tech-Marines. Thunderfire Cannons. Servitors.

Ain't none'a them plastic yet.

It's true that classics didn't get a release.

But what would you release for them? They've bern a complete army for at least ten years, and GW has struggled to fit anything new into their army. Any major update would simply be a re-release of a unit that already has a solid plastic kit.

In addition to the updates HBMC mentioned - literally EVERY Primaris release could have just been a standard marine release instead. Every, single, one. But rather than going the CSM route of simply upscaling the models and saying "Here's your new stuff", GW went out of its way to invent a whole new type of marine to fill those roles, and unleashed a torrent of fluff that does nothing but talk about how that new type of marine will eventually become the replacement for the old marines ...

EDIT:

He’s not wrong. As soon as Primaris were announced people on this very forum were saying exactly as this poster says. Then amended to “gone by 9th” even before 9th was announced. Then the hymn sheet changed to “they won’t be in 10th”, then this Codex dropped allowing GW to have its cake and eat it, and no-one has a clue anymore!

I didn't see a single person say done in 8th or "gone by 9th". Not one. What we saw was people saying anywhere from 5-15 years. I think it's closer to the higher end of that, and as they start consolidating the marine books that timeline will slowly start to accelerate. I don't think we can pin the edition because GW's editions tend to last random lengths of time. 9th could last less than a year or run strong for 5. But I think 10-15 years from the Primaris introduction is a pretty good number.

If they had stayed one wound, they could have been basically gone by 10th. But now? GW has shot primaris in the foot AGAIN.

If they had stayed one wound, they could have been basically gone by 10th. But now? GW has shot primaris in the foot AGAIN.

Eh - sort of, but not really? Honestly, I really do think the 2W thing was to just get CSM more on par. GW has said repeatedly that they want actual CSM reflected in CSM armies, and that hordes and hordes of cultists are NOT what they had envisioned. The problem is, rather than make CSM good, they come at it from the direction of making cultists worse. Which leaves you with two bad options instead of just the one. So this was their way of getting CSM something to hang their hat on.

If regular marines stay 1 wound, the gulf between standard Chaos Marines and loyalist only widens once old marines are squatted, and you can't give one set of old marines the extra wound without giving all of them the extra wound. That said, I still think (because of the points increase) that this will end up making the standard Chaos marines worse, but time will tell ...

Just say CSM are empowered by chaos to have 2W and loyalists aren't and so still have 1W.

Just say CSM are empowered by chaos to have 2W and loyalists aren't and so still have 1W.

Chaos can't have nice things. It's a in-house design rule they introduced shortly after Chaos won the global campaign for the 13th Black Crusade and they had to retcon pretty much the entirety of the results. lol

People talk about Grey Knights and their "Global Apology Tour", but they have nothing on CSM in this regard. They simply aren't going to give the standard CSM 2w and NOT give squatty marines 2 as well.

EDIT:

Plus, as I've said before, Primaris actually have ways to leverage that extra wound via strats. Squatty marines ... don't. So I still think it balances out.

Tycho wrote:

Just say CSM are empowered by chaos to have 2W and loyalists aren't and so still have 1W.

Chaos can't have nice things. It's a in-house design rule they introduced shortly after Chaos won the global campaign for the 13th Black Crusade and they had to retcon pretty much the entirety of the results. lol

People talk about Grey Knights and their "Global Apology Tour", but they have nothing on CSM in this regard. They simply aren't going to give the standard CSM 2w and NOT give squatty marines 2 as well.

I would. In a hearbeat. I might even give CSM 3W to make them better than primaris so they can be scary antagonists. GW is so stupid. They could have kept the results of the crusade and then had the Imperium do something clever (like maybe invent a Tyranid attraction beacon) to feth over chaos. Or surpise! A bunch of those planets Chaos conquered were all tomb worlds of Necrons. Sucks to be you chaos.

SecondTime wrote:

Tycho wrote:

Just say CSM are empowered by chaos to have 2W and loyalists aren't and so still have 1W.

Chaos can't have nice things. It's a in-house design rule they introduced shortly after Chaos won the global campaign for the 13th Black Crusade and they had to retcon pretty much the entirety of the results. lol

People talk about Grey Knights and their "Global Apology Tour", but they have nothing on CSM in this regard. They simply aren't going to give the standard CSM 2w and NOT give squatty marines 2 as well.

I would. In a hearbeat. I might even give CSM 3W to make them better than primaris so they can be scary antagonists. GW is so stupid. They could have kept the results of the crusade and then had the Imperium do something clever (like maybe invent a Tyranid attraction beacon) to feth over chaos. Or surpise! A bunch of those planets Chaos conquered were all tomb worlds of Necrons. Sucks to be you chaos.

...then I think a significant proportion of us are very glad you don't work in the Design Studio.

Because what we get is so good? Sounds like they methodically gimp a faction with multiple subfactions because they are butthurt losers.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Tech-Marines. Thunderfire Cannons. Servitors.

Ain't none'a them plastic yet.

Those are not what I would call "major" units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tycho wrote:

It's true that classics didn't get a release.

But what would you release for them? They've bern a complete army for at least ten years, and GW has struggled to fit anything new into their army. Any major update would simply be a re-release of a unit that already has a solid plastic kit.

In addition to the updates HBMC mentioned - literally EVERY Primaris release could have just been a standard marine release instead. Every, single, one. But rather than going the CSM route of simply upscaling the models and saying "Here's your new stuff", GW went out of its way to invent a whole new type of marine to fill those roles, and unleashed a torrent of fluff that does nothing but talk about how that new type of marine will eventually become the replacement for the old marines ...

Because it would sell better.

Believe me I would have preferred they just re-scale classics over the Primaris garbage we got, but oh-mah-goodness to people love throwing money at marines+1.

He’s not wrong. As soon as Primaris were announced people on this very forum were saying exactly as this poster says. Then amended to “gone by 9th” even before 9th was announced. Then the hymn sheet changed to “they won’t be in 10th”, then this Codex dropped allowing GW to have its cake and eat it, and no-one has a clue anymore!

I didn't see a single person say done in 8th or "gone by 9th". . .

Oh there definitely were.

Until Primaris get drop pods, is there even an argument? I don't play either, but drop pods still break the scales right?

SecondTime wrote:
Primaris now need 3W lol. Oh GW.

Absolutely. GW will launch a completely new line of SM models in 10th edition with represents the evolution of primaris. Standard dude would be on 40mm base and half inch taller than an intercessor.

Apparently SM players love to re-buy their entire collections over and over again, it wouldn't be that unrealistic.

Until Primaris get drop pods, is there even an argument? I don't play either, but drop pods still break the scales right?

No.

I also don't think it's going to be a 1-to-1 direct replacement of everything. Sure, some things will get that - LT to Primaris LT, Chaplain to Primaris Chaplain, etc, but I don't think everything will get that.

By the time it's done I think the Primaris will have the same over-all capabilities as a Firstborn army, but those capabilities will come in different ways. They won't necessarily all be a "buffed" version of a traditional Firstborn unit with "Primaris" in front of it.

It's also important to look at the main characters in the setting - More and more important Firstborn characters are crossing over with each release, so it's not like there's a trend to keep firstborn as such.

That said, I do wonder if they'll keep some units. I could see keeping terminators for example.

Because it would sell better.

Believe me I would have preferred they just re-scale classics over the Primaris garbage we got, but oh-mah-goodness to people love throwing money at marines+1.

Marines being the cash-cow that they are, I am confident they would have had equal success simply saying "Marines have 2 wounds now, and take a look at these awesome new units"!

Then roll out everything with the same rules it has now but with "Primaris" removed.

Tycho wrote:

Until Primaris get drop pods, is there even an argument? I don't play either, but drop pods still break the scales right?

No.

I also don't think it's going to be a 1-to-1 direct replacement of everything. Sure, some things will get that - LT to Primaris LT, Chaplain to Primaris Chaplain, etc, but I don't think everything will get that.

By the time it's done I think the Primaris will have the same over-all capabilities as a Firstborn army, but those capabilities will come in different ways. They won't necessarily all be a "buffed" version of a traditional Firstborn unit with "Primaris" in front of it.

It's also important to look at the main characters in the setting - More and more important Firstborn characters are crossing over with each release, so it's not like there's a trend to keep firstborn as such.

That said, I do wonder if they'll keep some units. I could see keeping terminators for example.

Because it would sell better.

Believe me I would have preferred they just re-scale classics over the Primaris garbage we got, but oh-mah-goodness to people love throwing money at marines+1.

Marines being the cash-cow that they are, I am confident they would have had equal success simply saying "Marines have 2 wounds now, and take a look at these awesome new units"!

Then roll out everything with the same rules it has now but with "Primaris" removed.

So the Primes will not get a Turn 1 DS ability? Glad to hear it. Just for giggles, I'm betting 50 cents that you are incorrect on that sir.

So the Primes will not get a Turn 1 DS ability? Glad to hear it. Just for giggles, I'm betting 50 cents that you are incorrect on that sir.

So you didn't read what I wrote. I didn't say they wouldn't get that ability. I just said it might not come in the form of a "Primaris Drop Pod".

Everyone on the side of "but there's no Primaris "XYZ" unit to replace the Firstborn "XYZ" unit" wants to hold those units up as the reason Firstborn aren't getting squatted. My point is that we've already seen there probably won't be 1-to-1 translations for everything. For example - there's no "Primaris Devastator Squad", but there are Hell Blasters, Eradicators, and Aggressors. There's no Primaris "scout squad" but there are Infiltrators and Incursors. Etc.

Apologies if this:

By the time it's done I think the Primaris will have the same over-all capabilities as a Firstborn army, but those capabilities will come in different ways. They won't necessarily all be a "buffed" version of a traditional Firstborn unit with "Primaris" in front of it.

Was unclear.

Marines being the cash-cow that they are, I am confident they would have had equal success simply saying "Marines have 2 wounds now, and take a look at these awesome new units"!

Then roll out everything with the same rules it has now but with "Primaris" removed.

They can't copy right Space Marines but they can copy right Primaris Space Marines.

They can't copy right Space Marines but they can copy right Primaris Space Marines.

They have already copyrighted "Adeptus Astartes", and "Astartes". They cannot copyright "Space Marines" in any form (even with "Primaris" in front of it), so I don't think that plays in here. They also didn't invent the word "Primaris" so again, not sure that's at play here.

I don't think they can copy right astartes as its the nane of an ancient god. They might be able to do Adeptus Astartes but I think they would have a hard time proving that they came up with that phrase if it was ever challenged. They can copy right space marines by throwing words in front of it such as Chaos and Primaris. If challenged in courts they have to prove that they were the first to use these phrases and ideas. Which so far I think they are. I can't think of any other sci fi franchise that has space marines corrupted by hell. GW protecting its IP has been the #1 reason for all the name changes over the last couple years. I don't see this one being any different.

They can copy right space marines by throwing words in front of it such as Chaos and Primaris. If challenged in courts they have to prove that they were the first to use these phrases and ideas. Which so far I think they are. I can't think of any other sci fi franchise that has space marines corrupted by hell.

They have already lost this battle if I'm not mistaken.

Tycho wrote:

They can copy right space marines by throwing words in front of it such as Chaos and Primaris. If challenged in courts they have to prove that they were the first to use these phrases and ideas. Which so far I think they are. I can't think of any other sci fi franchise that has space marines corrupted by hell.

They have already lost this battle if I'm not mistaken.

I think that battle was just for the phrase Space Marines not other iterations of it. Would have to go back and look it up.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 Nitro Zeus wrote:

Brother Castor wrote:
I shan't hold my breath about firstborn marines getting squatted. During 8th everyone said they wouldn't be in SM codex 2.0. Then they said they won't be in 9th. Now apparently they won't be in 10th. Maybe. Maybe not.

All I know is that if GW do squat them I won't be replacing my entire army with Primaris. I'll either just use legends rules or retire them and focus on my other army.

This is the most kneejerky place on the internet and even here I didn't see people saying that old marines would be gone by 2.0 or by 9th. In fact 2.0 came out of nowhere and there was no real speculation at all about what 2.0 was going to be, just better SM rules. I don't have an opinion here I'm interested to see what GW do, I find them to be quite unpredictable, but you my friend are most definitely making gak up.

He’s not wrong. As soon as Primaris were announced people on this very forum were saying exactly as this poster says. Then amended to “gone by 9th” even before 9th was announced. Then the hymn sheet changed to “they won’t be in 10th”, then this Codex dropped allowing GW to have its cake and eat it, and no-one has a clue anymore!

No need to berate others because you managed not to see these posts over the last three years.

If we didn’t see it, and we didn’t do it, I’m pretty sure it wasn’t “everyone” saying it. Or even a significant percentage of “everyone”.

If we didn’t see it, and we didn’t do it, I’m pretty sure it wasn’t “everyone” saying it. Or even a significant percentage of “everyone”.

Right - no one really even knew 2.0 was actually coming that far in advance ...

This doesn't surprise me at all. Classic Marines can load up on D2+ weapons in a way that Primaris can't. And if you do load up on Hellblasters or whatever, they are just big, fat targets.

I don't know how accurate that is? Heavy Intercessors say "hello" for one thing. Primaris actually have a lot of ways to get d2+ weapons that don't involve bad units like Hell Blasters ...

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Until Primaris get drop pods, is there even an argument? I don't play either, but drop pods still break the scales right?

I don't think GW would bother making new Drop Pods. I can't imagine that they're a hot seller, especially given that they basically don't do anything. I think they'd just keep using the existing ones.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Those are not what I would call "major" units.

I'd call Tech-Marines just as important to Marines as everything else that got made in plastic, and they never got one in plastic until they made a Primaris version.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Until Primaris get drop pods, is there even an argument? I don't play either, but drop pods still break the scales right?

I don't think GW would bother making new Drop Pods. I can't imagine that they're a hot seller, especially given that they basically don't do anything. I think they'd just keep using the existing ones.

It depends on how cynical you are. They could replace them with a more offensive one (which they should, their lack of guns is their drawback they can just be ignored usually) and they would then be able to sell X more model kits.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Those are not what I would call "major" units.

I'd call Tech-Marines just as important to Marines as everything else that got made in plastic, and they never got one in plastic until they made a Primaris version.

Obviously Primaris Marines will instead get a new Impulsor variant called the Implusor that can hold 11 models and also perform multiple, simultaneous, deep strikes. It will also have sixteen Heavy Ironhail Heavy Stubber Hailfire Gatling Guns.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Obviously Primaris Marines will instead get a new Impulsor variant called the Implusor that can hold 11 models and also perform multiple, simultaneous, deep strikes. It will also have sixteen Heavy Ironhail Heavy Stubber Hailfire Gatling Guns.

Nah it will probably suck. The problem with the current drop pod is that you could drop it right next to just about any army and the army can just ignore it. A single storm bolter isn't going to force any kind of decision. Give it that fire (storm bolter) at every unit in range thing the bunker gets and it suddenly starts making people look at it even after you've used it for the whole point of taking it (Deep striking 10 Old Marines who can't deep strike themselves) Either make it a strat with no model, or make the model do something.

in fairness a drop pod is more about delivery of units, personally I'd be mostly on board with drop pods being made a stratigium, and the idea of it as a specific UNIT being retired.

in fairness a drop pod is more about delivery of units, personally I'd be mostly on board with drop pods being made a stratigium, and the idea of it as a specific UNIT being retired.

When I saw the bunker and heard some of the rules rumors, I kind of assumed it would be the new Primaris delivery method. Deepstrike it in with a compliment of 5 Intercessors, etc. lol I'm glad they didn't do it that way. Making pods a strat might be too limiting though. I could see just making it a delivery option for anything that can currently take a drop pod and just paying a certain amount of points to deep-strike them.

BrianDavion wrote:
in fairness a drop pod is more about delivery of units, personally I'd be mostly on board with drop pods being made a stratigium, and the idea of it as a specific UNIT being retired.

I don't care (much) either way. I like it better being on the table and having LOS etc effects, but Drop these 10 Dudes not within 9" as a stratagem/points upgrade would be fine. The tough part is being able to round up the units into one basket for the pod. i.e. Cap, LT, 5 sternguard, and 3 somethings that fit kind of things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tycho wrote:

in fairness a drop pod is more about delivery of units, personally I'd be mostly on board with drop pods being made a stratigium, and the idea of it as a specific UNIT being retired.

When I saw the bunker and heard some of the rules rumors, I kind of assumed it would be the new Primaris delivery method. Deepstrike it in with a compliment of 5 Intercessors, etc. lol I'm glad they didn't do it that way. Making pods a strat might be too limiting though. I could see just making it a delivery option for anything that can currently take a drop pod and just paying a certain amount of points to deep-strike them.

The bunker is all kinds of smirk bait. Look at a Drop Pod and tell me it looks like 10 Tactical Marines would fit in it. On the other hand the Bunker actually looks like 10 Heavy Intercessors would fit in that thing. However zero can. Nobody can.. hunker down in the bunker. And it doesn't deep strike. Which given it's rules is a good thing. Deep Striking the shoots-everthing-bunker into the other guy's back line would be very TFG. Of course if it was one of my buddies and I was going first on turn one, I'd totally start a game that way. Drop them all around his Warlord and pretend that was going to be the turn. Then I'd tell him I was just kidding. Assuming the table was still upright and they were still in the room.