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BrianDavion wrote:


... no they don't. their pistols are 1 DMG.

and their knives are AP - 4 dmg 1.

How is that a threat to a deamon Primarch?

hell, how are these fethers reaching close combat with a deamon primarch?!

Hey, we're complaining about Marines here, accuracy and honesty aren't important. Nerfing Marines even before they're released is what's important.

Breton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:


... no they don't. their pistols are 1 DMG.

and their knives are AP - 4 dmg 1.

How is that a threat to a deamon Primarch?

hell, how are these fethers reaching close combat with a deamon primarch?!

Hey, we're complaining about Marines here, accuracy and honesty aren't important. Nerfing Marines even before they're released is what's important.

Maybe read their special rule giving them +1 and +1 before complaining about being inaccurate.
GW have made compairing marines actually very contrived now that they get bonuses stacjed ontop of bonuses ontop of some very cheap statlines.

Also for complaining about inaccurate information where are you getting Ap-4 from that datasheet is on pg 4 of this thread FFS.

Breton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:


... no they don't. their pistols are 1 DMG.

and their knives are AP - 4 dmg 1.

How is that a threat to a deamon Primarch?

hell, how are these fethers reaching close combat with a deamon primarch?!

Hey, we're complaining about Marines here, accuracy and honesty aren't important. Nerfing Marines even before they're released is what's important.

Now now Breton, It's theorieticly possiabler the unit COOOOULD kill Magnus, I mean, a 5 man squad has 16 attacks! and the pistol! they could roll straight 6's and kill magnus in close combat! clearly they are a broken unit and will thus absolutely destroy every army with a psyker ever!

Ice_can wrote:


Hey, we're complaining about Marines here, accuracy and honesty aren't important. Nerfing Marines even before they're released is what's important.

Maybe read their special rule giving them +1 and +1 before complaining about being inaccurate.
GW have made compairing marines actually very contrived now that they get bonuses stacjed ontop of bonuses ontop of some very cheap statlines.

Breton wrote:

Ice_can wrote:


Hey, we're complaining about Marines here, accuracy and honesty aren't important. Nerfing Marines even before they're released is what's important.

Maybe read their special rule giving them +1 and +1 before complaining about being inaccurate.
GW have made compairing marines actually very contrived now that they get bonuses stacjed ontop of bonuses ontop of some very cheap statlines.

Did you claim a WS 3+ stat lined unit hits in close combat on 1+?

Ice_can wrote:

Breton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:


... no they don't. their pistols are 1 DMG.

and their knives are AP - 4 dmg 1.

How is that a threat to a deamon Primarch?

hell, how are these fethers reaching close combat with a deamon primarch?!

Hey, we're complaining about Marines here, accuracy and honesty aren't important. Nerfing Marines even before they're released is what's important.

Maybe read their special rule giving them +1 and +1 before complaining about being inaccurate.
GW have made compairing marines actually very contrived now that they get bonuses stacjed ontop of bonuses ontop of some very cheap statlines.

I think you mean complicated not contrived. my point is, that these guys are NOT a threat to a deamon primarch.

are they a threat to a random libraran or sorcrer? sure...

but they're JUST reivers. you know why Reivers suck? because.. they tend to die before they can get into combat. seriously, for these guys to do their job, they have to basicly walk up to the enemy, and get into close combat with them. sure they can be dangerous if they're able to do their job (EVERY unit should be dangerous if they're able to do their job. ) but yeah... let's not pretend these guys are going to be breaking the game.

Ice_can wrote:


Plus +1 to hit roll againt psychers +1 in CC because space puppies, WS3+ on a D6+2 1+2=3 really is that so difficult?

Max of final +1 or -1 to hit. The only way they can use a second +1 is if there's a corresponding -1. They will never hit on a 1+. And that second +1 only applies on charge turns. That isn't difficuilt. But it it is honest. And that's difficult for you.

Breton wrote:

Ice_can wrote:


Plus +1 to hit roll againt psychers +1 in CC because space puppies, WS3+ on a D6+2 1+2=3 really is that so difficult?

Max of final +1 or -1 to hit. The only way they can use a second +1 is if there's a corresponding -1. They will never hit on a 1+. And that second +1 only applies on charge turns. That isn't difficuilt. But it it is honest. And that's difficult for you.

good catch, and reivers can't take thunderhammers so the rule'd only come into play if the psyker cast some sort of "-1 to hit me in combat" spell.

still I suppose if the combat stretches past 1 round that special rule might be relevant

They don't have to break the whole game marines have pretty much already got that locked down, this is just breaking Psychers.
Which inevitably leads to psychers needing to be buffed as who's going to take them now, then they get buffed and then those without power armour and the new fancy anti psycher outflanking infanry that double their damage agaisnt psychers get left behind in the powercreep again.

BrianDavion wrote:

Breton wrote:

Ice_can wrote:


Plus +1 to hit roll againt psychers +1 in CC because space puppies, WS3+ on a D6+2 1+2=3 really is that so difficult?

Max of final +1 or -1 to hit. The only way they can use a second +1 is if there's a corresponding -1. They will never hit on a 1+. And that second +1 only applies on charge turns. That isn't difficuilt. But it it is honest. And that's difficult for you.

good catch, and reivers can't take thunderhammers so the rule'd only come into play if the psyker cast some sort of "-1 to hit me in combat" spell.

still I suppose if the combat stretches past 1 round that special rule might be relevant

Figures don't lie, but liars can figure. They (always) hit Demon Princes on a 1+ is far different from they CAN get +2 to hit in the right circumstances

Breton wrote:

Ice_can wrote:


Plus +1 to hit roll againt psychers +1 in CC because space puppies, WS3+ on a D6+2 1+2=3 really is that so difficult?

Max of final +1 or -1 to hit. The only way they can use a second +1 is if there's a corresponding -1. They will never hit on a 1+. And that second +1 only applies on charge turns. That isn't difficuilt. But it it is honest. And that's difficult for you.

Natural 1's always fail aswell, but ignore that your unit hits on 2+ againt a -1 to hit target sure. Not like everyone else is stuck at 4+ or worse.
You sure it is just when charging? Not it when chargeing, charged or heroic intervention too.

Ice_can wrote:

Breton wrote:

Ice_can wrote:


Plus +1 to hit roll againt psychers +1 in CC because space puppies, WS3+ on a D6+2 1+2=3 really is that so difficult?

Max of final +1 or -1 to hit. The only way they can use a second +1 is if there's a corresponding -1. They will never hit on a 1+. And that second +1 only applies on charge turns. That isn't difficuilt. But it it is honest. And that's difficult for you.

Natural 1's always fail aswell, but ignore that your unit hits on 2+ againt a -1 to hit target sure. Not like everyone else is stuck at 4+ or worse.
You sure it is just when charging? Not it when chargeing, charged or heroic intervention too.

dude, how often is this imaginary scenerio going to come up? How many psykers have spells that can add a -1 to attack agaisnt them?

Ice_can wrote:

Breton wrote:

Ice_can wrote:


Plus +1 to hit roll againt psychers +1 in CC because space puppies, WS3+ on a D6+2 1+2=3 really is that so difficult?

Max of final +1 or -1 to hit. The only way they can use a second +1 is if there's a corresponding -1. They will never hit on a 1+. And that second +1 only applies on charge turns. That isn't difficuilt. But it it is honest. And that's difficult for you.

Natural 1's always fail aswell, but ignore that your unit hits on 2+ againt a -1 to hit target sure. Not like everyone else is stuck at 4+ or worse.
You sure it is just when charging? Not it when chargeing, charged or heroic intervention too.

“On charge turns” is what I said. You can’t even tell the truth about the post you quoted. Nor can you, even now, include the situational requirements for that second +1. Like I said, honesty is difficult for you, and not important when we’re calling for nerfing marines before they’re even released.

BrianDavion wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Breton wrote:

Ice_can wrote:


Plus +1 to hit roll againt psychers +1 in CC because space puppies, WS3+ on a D6+2 1+2=3 really is that so difficult?

Max of final +1 or -1 to hit. The only way they can use a second +1 is if there's a corresponding -1. They will never hit on a 1+. And that second +1 only applies on charge turns. That isn't difficuilt. But it it is honest. And that's difficult for you.

Natural 1's always fail aswell, but ignore that your unit hits on 2+ againt a -1 to hit target sure. Not like everyone else is stuck at 4+ or worse.
You sure it is just when charging? Not it when chargeing, charged or heroic intervention too.

dude, how often is this imaginary scenerio going to come up? How many psykers have spells that can add a -1 to attack agaisnt them?

It doesn't have to be a spell it can be anything that gives them a -1 be that strategum, ability, power, wargear.

Ice_can wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Breton wrote:

Ice_can wrote:


Plus +1 to hit roll againt psychers +1 in CC because space puppies, WS3+ on a D6+2 1+2=3 really is that so difficult?

Max of final +1 or -1 to hit. The only way they can use a second +1 is if there's a corresponding -1. They will never hit on a 1+. And that second +1 only applies on charge turns. That isn't difficuilt. But it it is honest. And that's difficult for you.

Natural 1's always fail aswell, but ignore that your unit hits on 2+ againt a -1 to hit target sure. Not like everyone else is stuck at 4+ or worse.
You sure it is just when charging? Not it when chargeing, charged or heroic intervention too.

dude, how often is this imaginary scenerio going to come up? How many psykers have spells that can add a -1 to attack agaisnt them?

It doesn't have to be a spell it can be anything that gives them a -1 be that strategum, ability, power, wargear.

sure my point is, you're making much ado about something that is absurdly niche. seriously, Breton's right, you've already decided this unit is bad and you're grasping at straws to "prove it"

BrianDavion wrote:

sure my point is, you're making much ado about something that is absurdly niche. seriously, Breton's right, you've already decided this unit is bad and you're grasping at straws to "prove it"

Its new, its Marine, and he's one of the usual suspects. It must be nerfed.

BrianDavion wrote:

dude, how often is this imaginary scenerio going to come up? How many psykers have spells that can add a -1 to attack agaisnt them?

Thousand Sons
Death Guard
Tyranids
Genestealer Cults
Orkz (Death Skulls specifically)
Harlequins (has TWO spells that can do it!)
Craftworld Eldar
Chaos Daemons
Space Marines (Objuration Discipline)

At least.

And like, I actually largely agree with you and think this unit is really overhyped. But "-1 to hit" is one of the single most common psychic power effects among every army in the game.

Well, basically any Eldar Psyker can LFR, Harlequin Shadowseers could Fog of Dreams themselves (and LFR for 2 CP for a -2, making charging Morkai Hounds hit on 3+ again). Most Nurgle stuff, including Morty, could have Miasma. Most Tzeentch stuff, including Magnus, could have Glamour.

It's not a super uncommon scenario IMO, but also not super problematic IMO.

BrianDavion wrote:

sure my point is, you're making much ado about something that is absurdly niche. seriously, Breton's right, you've already decided this unit is bad and you're grasping at straws to "prove it"

How niche do you think the psycher keyword is? Seriously
This unit is the latest in GW making a unit for marines that's anti X so automatically anyone who was playing X (assuming x was at a fair and balanced points) is going to be pointing out they are now weaker with a hard counter unit being handed to the largest faction in the game. (Marines are 1 faction, played against enough grey blood angles, green Guillimans etc. They are the same army.) so GW drops the points for psychers or adds rules they are now balanced against marines but oh look they wipe the floor with everyone else.

It's starting another round of powercreep in yet another area.

If they had their Bolt Carbines they might see some play (in fact they might just be completely broken with 24" range). 12" just isn't going to cut it most of the time. Outflanking MIGHT work if your opponent forgets to screen their Farseer of whatever. However unless your opponent is a potato, screening against 12" weapons is absolutely trivial.

(Marines are 1 faction, played against enough grey blood angles, green Guillimans etc. They are the same army.)

If something requires a different rule set then it is a different thing. Just like in sports, being 100m dash can make you good at other sprints, but not always and they are separate cathegories in any event. Now you can hate the fact that they are more model efficient then other stuff GW sells, but that is like hating ethiopians for being being good at every type of long run.

Karol wrote:

(Marines are 1 faction, played against enough grey blood angles, green Guillimans etc. They are the same army.)

If something requires a different rule set then it is a different thing. Just like in sports, being 100m dash can make you good at other sprints, but not always and they are separate cathegories in any event. Now you can hate the fact that they are more model efficient then other stuff GW sells, but that is like hating ethiopians for being being good at every type of long run.

Way to monumentally miss the point.

Want to move fron eldar to GK guess what you need to go and buy 2000 points of new units
Drukari to Orks same

Want to play your Dark Angles as Ultramarines, you need a codex no new models no painting.

Ice_can wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

sure my point is, you're making much ado about something that is absurdly niche. seriously, Breton's right, you've already decided this unit is bad and you're grasping at straws to "prove it"

How niche do you think the psycher keyword is? Seriously

... pretty fething niche.

Outside of 2 armies it's restricted to mostly HQs. something not every army has. your average 2000 game is going to have a battlaion vs a battlaion (or maybe a brigade if your enemy has a TON of cheap units)

a battlaion is 2-3 HQs. this means, MAX a list will have 3 Psykers, and guess what, plenty won't have ANY.

as it is MOST armies only have a single psyker entry as a HQ type. So yeah you're talking about a squad that in your average game will hunt down a SINGLE MODEL on the table top.

BrianDavion wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

sure my point is, you're making much ado about something that is absurdly niche. seriously, Breton's right, you've already decided this unit is bad and you're grasping at straws to "prove it"

How niche do you think the psycher keyword is? Seriously

... pretty fething niche.

Outside of 2 armies it's restricted to mostly HQs. something not every army has. your average 2000 game is going to have a battlaion vs a battlaion (or maybe a brigade if your enemy has a TON of cheap units)

a battlaion is 2-3 HQs. this means, MAX a list will have 3 Psykers, and guess what, plenty won't have ANY.

as it is MOST armies only have a single psyker entry as a HQ type. So yeah you're talking about a squad that in your average game will hunt down a SINGLE MODEL on the table top.

Assuming the hounds turn up out of reserve within 12" of the target, the 5 man squad will chip 4 damage off a marine psyker with pistols, against a lot of weaker psykers physically they have good odds of outright killing them.

I think this is the unit for Space Wolves to counter their nemisis - Thousand Sons. Not only their pseudo "shadow of the warp" ability make TS harder to cast powers, but also the +1dmg against psyker units will nullify the "all is dust" rule for TS marines and Terminators.

I feel like it would be a dick to take 3 units of these against TS in a "non competitive" game.

The best use for them is probably having them enter somewhere out of sight and then set up teleport homers and score linebreaker while they mess up your opponent's casting with their 18" aura.

If the opponent doesn't have psykers they are just worse reavers though.

They need an update sprue so they can all take thunder hammers.

Neophyte2012 wrote:
I think this is the unit for Space Wolves to counter their nemisis - Thousand Sons. Not only their pseudo "shadow of the warp" ability make TS harder to cast powers, but also the +1dmg against psyker units will nullify the "all is dust" rule for TS marines and Terminators.

I feel like it would be a dick to take 3 units of these against TS in a "non competitive" game.

The Thousand Sons don't need stupidly strong counters like this one to lose vs them. And I don't think the Thousand Sons are going to get an Aura that reduces charge distances or number of attacks in melee to counter their nemesis, the Space Wolves.

There's dicks in every faction, but the problem is not the customer, is the company.

GW was not selling Reivers because of their rules and now every SW player is going to buy a box of these just in case they play vs a Psyker army (and I'm pretty sure SW is one of the most played SM chapters) because they are pretty good at their job. GW doing GW things and abusing the customers. In my opinion, everyone should be sad about releases like this one.

 Denegaar wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:
I think this is the unit for Space Wolves to counter their nemisis - Thousand Sons. Not only their pseudo "shadow of the warp" ability make TS harder to cast powers, but also the +1dmg against psyker units will nullify the "all is dust" rule for TS marines and Terminators.

I feel like it would be a dick to take 3 units of these against TS in a "non competitive" game.

The Thousand Sons don't need stupidly strong counters like this one to lose vs them. And I don't think the Thousand Sons are going to get an Aura that reduces charge distances or number of attacks in melee to counter their nemesis, the Space Wolves.

There's dicks in every faction, but the problem is not the customer, is the company.

GW was not selling Reivers because of their rules and now every SW player is going to buy a box of these just in case they play vs a Psyker army (and I'm pretty sure SW is one of the most played SM chapters) because they are pretty good at their job. GW doing GW things and abusing the customers. In my opinion, everyone should be sad about releases like this one.

Thousand Sons get DttfE, and not even on just one unit.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Denegaar wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:
I think this is the unit for Space Wolves to counter their nemisis - Thousand Sons. Not only their pseudo "shadow of the warp" ability make TS harder to cast powers, but also the +1dmg against psyker units will nullify the "all is dust" rule for TS marines and Terminators.

I feel like it would be a dick to take 3 units of these against TS in a "non competitive" game.

The Thousand Sons don't need stupidly strong counters like this one to lose vs them. And I don't think the Thousand Sons are going to get an Aura that reduces charge distances or number of attacks in melee to counter their nemesis, the Space Wolves.

There's dicks in every faction, but the problem is not the customer, is the company.

GW was not selling Reivers because of their rules and now every SW player is going to buy a box of these just in case they play vs a Psyker army (and I'm pretty sure SW is one of the most played SM chapters) because they are pretty good at their job. GW doing GW things and abusing the customers. In my opinion, everyone should be sad about releases like this one.

Thousand Sons get DttfE, and not even on just one unit.

Lol as if DttfE is relevant compared to say ATSKNF, especially on Thousands sons, to which it was incepted as answer to make any CSM diffrent from SM.
Shall we now go through all the nonsense GW stacked on SM compared to CSM? I am sure the list will be.... amusing.