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 Vaktathi wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
Looking at the units listed in the new Imperial Armour, it looks like nearly all of the DKoK models got culled. No more Mars-Alpha, Grenadiers, regular infantry, etc...

So is this an oversight or did GW just decide to destroy the faction?

Ultimately what I'm hoping it means is that DKoK are just a Doctrine and that they don't have their own rules for most of these units, because in just about every edition, all it has meant is that DKoK units end up being dramatically more expensive than their codex counterparts, and with fewer upgrade options and a smaller armory of weapons to boot, in exchange for a WS bonus that doesn't actually mean squat on these units and marginally useful morale rules in a couple editions. The Mars Alpha pattern hull really doesn't need it's own distinct rules, and didn't have them for most iterations of the DKoK rulesets.

This.

Bringing DKoK more in align with the AM codex is a good thing from both a rules and points perspective and longevity of the faction. Furthermore, this alignment doesn't necessarily mean DKoK will lose it's unique flavor. I can see DKoK avoiding a squat by becoming a bona-fide AM supplement in the future (similar to the unique SM chapters), provided model support continues by either GW or FW. DKoK makes GW money and they recognize this (e.g. see the amount of DKoK support in the upcoming comoendium).

Stay positive and wait for more information.

 catbarf wrote:
If DKoK infantry are now the same price as regular Guardsmen, can take a bolter on the Watchmaster, can take a heavy weapon, and have access to FRFSRF and Take Aim, I'll jump for joy. No more WS3+? Sorry, I couldn't hear you over the sound of 36 lasgun shots at 12".

Seriously, as much as the special Death Korps rules had flavor, going to the generic Codex entries for their non-unique units means not being left behind when points or stats change. Still allowing them to field their unique units is then the best of both worlds.

The main exception being, as Katherine noted, Grenadiers, which need a bit more than 'counts as Scions'.

HAH HAH NEVER MIND Centaurs, Gorgons, Macharius Omega, Storm Chimeras, and all the DKoK-specific vehicle variants are gone so I guess I'll just go feth myself then.

Normalization to codex equivalents was fine but losing their iconic transports for an infantry-based army is gutting.

 catbarf wrote:

 catbarf wrote:
If DKoK infantry are now the same price as regular Guardsmen, can take a bolter on the Watchmaster, can take a heavy weapon, and have access to FRFSRF and Take Aim, I'll jump for joy. No more WS3+? Sorry, I couldn't hear you over the sound of 36 lasgun shots at 12".

Seriously, as much as the special Death Korps rules had flavor, going to the generic Codex entries for their non-unique units means not being left behind when points or stats change. Still allowing them to field their unique units is then the best of both worlds.

The main exception being, as Katherine noted, Grenadiers, which need a bit more than 'counts as Scions'.

HAH HAH NEVER MIND Centaurs, Gorgons, Macharius Omega, Storm Chimeras, and all the DKoK-specific vehicle variants are gone so I guess I'll just go feth myself then.

Oh don't worry, I'm sure you'll be able to take the codex versions of those units! /s

I say this sarcastically, but tbf I do think the Storm Chimera and Leman Russes will be fine as Imperial Guard codex vehicles...

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

 catbarf wrote:
If DKoK infantry are now the same price as regular Guardsmen, can take a bolter on the Watchmaster, can take a heavy weapon, and have access to FRFSRF and Take Aim, I'll jump for joy. No more WS3+? Sorry, I couldn't hear you over the sound of 36 lasgun shots at 12".

Seriously, as much as the special Death Korps rules had flavor, going to the generic Codex entries for their non-unique units means not being left behind when points or stats change. Still allowing them to field their unique units is then the best of both worlds.

The main exception being, as Katherine noted, Grenadiers, which need a bit more than 'counts as Scions'.

HAH HAH NEVER MIND Centaurs, Gorgons, Macharius Omega, Storm Chimeras, and all the DKoK-specific vehicle variants are gone so I guess I'll just go feth myself then.

Oh don't worry, I'm sure you'll be able to take the codex versions of those units! /s

I say this sarcastically, but tbf I do think the Storm Chimera and Leman Russes will be fine as Imperial Guard codex vehicles...

Yeah but you need 4 chimeras to equal a Gorgon’s transport capacity

You could use it as a storm lord though.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

 catbarf wrote:
If DKoK infantry are now the same price as regular Guardsmen, can take a bolter on the Watchmaster, can take a heavy weapon, and have access to FRFSRF and Take Aim, I'll jump for joy. No more WS3+? Sorry, I couldn't hear you over the sound of 36 lasgun shots at 12".

Seriously, as much as the special Death Korps rules had flavor, going to the generic Codex entries for their non-unique units means not being left behind when points or stats change. Still allowing them to field their unique units is then the best of both worlds.

The main exception being, as Katherine noted, Grenadiers, which need a bit more than 'counts as Scions'.

HAH HAH NEVER MIND Centaurs, Gorgons, Macharius Omega, Storm Chimeras, and all the DKoK-specific vehicle variants are gone so I guess I'll just go feth myself then.

Oh don't worry, I'm sure you'll be able to take the codex versions of those units! /s

I say this sarcastically, but tbf I do think the Storm Chimera and Leman Russes will be fine as Imperial Guard codex vehicles...

Yeah but you need 4 chimeras to equal a Gorgon’s transport capacity

Right, the Gorgon is exactly why I was originally sarcastic. There's NO codex entry that's comparable.

 catbarf wrote:

 catbarf wrote:
If DKoK infantry are now the same price as regular Guardsmen, can take a bolter on the Watchmaster, can take a heavy weapon, and have access to FRFSRF and Take Aim, I'll jump for joy. No more WS3+? Sorry, I couldn't hear you over the sound of 36 lasgun shots at 12".

Seriously, as much as the special Death Korps rules had flavor, going to the generic Codex entries for their non-unique units means not being left behind when points or stats change. Still allowing them to field their unique units is then the best of both worlds.

The main exception being, as Katherine noted, Grenadiers, which need a bit more than 'counts as Scions'.

HAH HAH NEVER MIND Centaurs, Gorgons, Macharius Omega, Storm Chimeras, and all the DKoK-specific vehicle variants are gone so I guess I'll just go feth myself then.

Normalization to codex equivalents was fine but losing their iconic transports for an infantry-based army is gutting.

Personally, I'm not going to mind Storm Chimeras going away, as they were just Autocannon equipped Chimeras with mandatory extra wargear that bloated the cost substantially for little extra benefit, as long as the Autocannon turret options remains you can still basically make one. I own 16 Chimeras, with enough Autocannons to fill out an entire army with Storm Chimeras, and never ran them that way because they were just too hideously expensive to actually work, especially for Grenadiers, the unit they're actually intended for. The Macharius Omega wasn't unique to the DKoK, nor was the Gorgon (and as a Superheavy, wasn't useable in most typical armies for most editions, and was never particularly functional or good anyway), losing them kinda sucks for sure, but I don't think they're a major flavor loss for the faction. Centaurs would be the only real loss that was somewhat unique, but was also so niche in its use (command squads, Grenadiers, Engineers, and medium artillery 5man squads only, really only ever Grenadiers in practice), coupled with rules that usually were never particularly functional (especially after 6E dropped and they gave it...2HP), that I personally never bothered to pick one up.

Playing DKoK since 4E, the problem with them has always been that they've been given minor bits of flavor at an insanely exorbitant cost in points and unit options/orders availability/weapons choice/etc, while most of that flavor was also made available to normal IG armies if they wanted, that it makes it hard for me to really be irritated about some of these things. Also, to be honest, I think the Catachan doctrine really captures them more effectively than most of their army-wide rules ever have really anyway, additional CC capability, reinforced leadership (when around officers at least) and something for the big guns too, what's not to like? As long as I get the option to take Grenadiers as Troops alongside the rest of the army without having to deal with awkward Scion/Regiment keyword issues, that'll work for me personally, though I suspect GW will probably flub that.

The gorgon is something that legitimately puzzles me, since they literally had a whole special like 2 months ago about it's return to production.

My bet is that it's a combination of oversight and this book having gone to print also months ago, before the gorgon was returned to production.



As for the other deleted units: the Centaur is, was, and will be defunct as a transport, especially with Grenadiers gone, because it has a smaller transport capacity than IG units' minimum squad size with the exception of command squads. That said, I'm sad that the Universal Carrier of the Imperium is gone, because it was cute and funny.

The Storm Chimera is just a Chimera, like the 3 types of FW Vanquishers are all just Leman Russ Vanquishers.

The Marcharius Omega isn't DKoK unique, and while it's disappointing that it's gone, it's been gone for a while.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
The gorgon is something that legitimately puzzles me, since they literally had a whole special like 2 months ago about it's return to production.

My bet is that it's a combination of oversight and this book having gone to print also months ago, before the Gorgon was returned to production.

It'll be interesting to see if it gets added if there's a 2 week FAQ for the book.

Question for any HH players - does the Gorgon crop up in there, or is it currently 40k-only?

Maybe it will be added as an update to the digital version only. Forcing DKoK players to get on using that app to access the datasheets that should have been in the book they purchased.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
The gorgon is something that legitimately puzzles me, since they literally had a whole special like 2 months ago about it's return to production.

My bet is that it's a combination of oversight and this book having gone to print also months ago, before the Gorgon was returned to production.

It'll be interesting to see if it gets added if there's a 2 week FAQ for the book.

Question for any HH players - does the Gorgon crop up in there, or is it currently 40k-only?

It should be 40k only. It's based on the Marcharius chassis, which is absolutely brand new in the scheme of the Imperium, a new development as of like M41. That said, I have no idea if it's available in 30k.



My bet is the following happened:
Rules for Forge World models was taken over by the GW consolidated rules team [as we are all aware]
Said consolidated rules team didn't continue talking to the model designers at Forge World about what might be in the works.
Forge World model designers began restoration of the moulds for the Gorgon, but never communicated with the people writing the rules.
Final preparation of this book occurred several months ago while the Gorgon was still out of production, and it was sent off to printers.
The Gorgon was returned to production.
The book comes out, without the Gorgon in it, because the Gorgon wasn't in production at the time the book was written.

 Grimskul wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Let's look at it this way. DKoK are just a specialized version of the Guard in the same way that the angles and wolves are specialized SM chapters. The SM chapters get folded into the main book the Krieg get folded into the main book.

Now lets look at whats actually happening in this IA book. Necrons lost their 2 unique characters and they get no dynasty rules for the FW dynasty. Tyranids get no rules for Anphelion hive fleet. Tau get no rules. Neither do Orks, Eldar of either flavor, or Chaos. But SM get 2 pages for Chapters of Reknown and Krieg get 2 pages all to themselves.

Removed - Rule #1 please SM are the obvious winners while DKoK get the consolation prize and everyone else got fethed.

We really do seem to be reaching a critical mass of marine saturation at this point. With both Forgeworld and GW proper going full steam ahead on nonstop marine releases (both rules wise and models) even marine players are reaching a level of fatigue since they're facing more marine players than other armies. Just the sheer amount of datasheets for marines is becoming untenable.

It might be different based on the countries, but who the heck is playing? All the stores here are shut down, the virus is running rampant. I haven't played 40K since February.

we were playing , the second wave in europa is starting before was relatively calm...

 Lance845 wrote:
Let's look at it this way. DKoK are just a specialized version of the Guard in the same way that the angles and wolves are specialized SM chapters. The SM chapters get folded into the main book the Krieg get folded into the main book.

Now lets look at whats actually happening in this IA book. Necrons lost their 2 unique characters and they get no dynasty rules for the FW dynasty. Tyranids get no rules for Anphelion hive fleet. Tau get no rules. Neither do Orks, Eldar of either flavor, or Chaos. But SM get 2 pages for Chapters of Reknown and Krieg get 2 pages all to themselves.

Removed - Rule #1 please SM are the obvious winners while DKoK get the consolation prize and everyone else got fethed.

I mean for what it's worth you could make them into Regiment Rules without losing too much while gaining so much more.
1. Infantry add +1 to hit rolls in the Assault Phase and do not take Attrition Tests to shooting attacks
2. A better version of tanks shooting upon death

Grenadiers can be the same as Vets basically. Whats missing is the Drill though which is iconic of course.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Togusa wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Let's look at it this way. DKoK are just a specialized version of the Guard in the same way that the angles and wolves are specialized SM chapters. The SM chapters get folded into the main book the Krieg get folded into the main book.

Now lets look at whats actually happening in this IA book. Necrons lost their 2 unique characters and they get no dynasty rules for the FW dynasty. Tyranids get no rules for Anphelion hive fleet. Tau get no rules. Neither do Orks, Eldar of either flavor, or Chaos. But SM get 2 pages for Chapters of Reknown and Krieg get 2 pages all to themselves.

Removed - Rule #1 please SM are the obvious winners while DKoK get the consolation prize and everyone else got fethed.

We really do seem to be reaching a critical mass of marine saturation at this point. With both Forgeworld and GW proper going full steam ahead on nonstop marine releases (both rules wise and models) even marine players are reaching a level of fatigue since they're facing more marine players than other armies. Just the sheer amount of datasheets for marines is becoming untenable.

It might be different based on the countries, but who the heck is playing? All the stores here are shut down, the virus is running rampant. I haven't played 40K since February.

I've played maybe one game of 9th just against myself to understand the rules. Working in Healthcare I honestly don't see myself playing against human opponents for a VERY long time.

If the OP title is true this makes me quite sad.

The DKoK and Vraksian R&H were and still are iconic armies - just with a massively inflated buy-in cost.

The new R&H models in Blackstone Fortress don't hold a candle to the FW models/upgrade kits, which I see as ahead of their time and in the actual spirit/aesthetic of traitor guard.

The fact I can't purchase grenadiers for nigh on two years sadly makes me think they are going the way of the dodo. Shame as I was interested in starting a seige based army with them.

On a positive note - hopefully this means we get plastic versions from GW main with thematic rules.

 Dysartes wrote:
Question for any HH players - does the Gorgon crop up in there, or is it currently 40k-only?

Yes - it's in the Crusade Imperialis: Army Lists book.

Seems fine to me, cant think of a model I own that I can’t still use, and I wasn’t bring my dkok to competitive games anyway so no problem with the other things going legends.

Bet power level goes up, we just lost some worthless special snowflake upgrades that put many options into the realm of prohibitively expensive.

The combat engineers seems significantly less good in the update

 Jidmah wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
It is now a specialty game company - 30k, and probably the WH:FB reboot when that comes around.

This has literally always been its raison d’être. The niche of the niche. The boutique within the boutique.

I think the issue is that in the past many things were done by FW because of technical limitations on plastic/metal sculpts. Since pretty much anything can be done in plastic now, there really isn't any reason for GW to have forgeworld continue making anything new for 40k.

The sad part is while this is technically correct, it requires GW to stop releasing new plastic primaris every quarter for units they don't even need. Yeah, assault intercessors were needed, but did we really need the stationary gun turret, bunker, and heavy intercessors? With all the useless crap SM have gotten we could have revamped a few xenos codexes by now.

We arguably need FW more than ever, but ever since 30k started up good luck with that. Hope you like marines because that's pretty much the whole pipeline for FW and GW

The wish of having releases more equally distributed across codices is not connected to FW's premium product business model though. If models like the silent kind of Mortarion are made of plastic, it's hard to justify anything but titans made from resin.

Don't get me wrong, GW's plastic skill is top notch. You need resin for more limited runs though. Stuff like niche xenos units for example, or a weird IG tank recovery vehicle. It's not that they can't do these models in plastic, but that it's not cost effective to do these models in plastic. Keeping a boutique resin store for niche models means that while GW releases primaris marine squad #23 because they just keep selling for whatever reason, non marine armies can still get quality releases on things that the company knows won't sell as well.

That's the point of resin and why so many great 3rd party companies work with resin. Its cheaper to start up and do small runs, the latter of which was the whole point of FW in the first place. If anything Krieg and 30k got too popular for FW and became overwhelming. I'm kind of surprised the staple krieg and 30k marine units never got plastic kits. MkVI beakies, a proper contemptor dreadnaught kit, plastic heresy rhinos, etc. Alongside krieg infantry squad, command squad, heavy weapon squad, the centaur, maybe the engineers/grenadiers, you get the idea. Would take a lot of stress off the FW team and give GW models they know they would sell.

With Grenadiers officially moving to Legends now, that's going to hurt, that is a big part of the faction's interesting aspect going bye-bye, making Assault Brigades impossible to build, and with it most of my remaining desire to spend cash monies on anything 9th edition related.

And now that we are stuck with normal infantry squads, we can no longer equip our squad leaders with lasguns.

I don't understand the new DKoK doctrine, isn't it useless?

Don't commissars make the first part redundant, and for the second part you have a 50% chance of firing with a vehicle weapon at 6+ to hit or making a single attack with a character. Imperial Guardsmen are not known to be good at combat.

I am currently enjoying the absolute feth storm going on GW's facebook page. They tried to promote this as a good thing for DKoK players and are getting absolutely destroyed in the comments by players

 Orodhen wrote:
And now that we are stuck with normal infantry squads, we can no longer equip our squad leaders with lasguns.

FWIW, regular Infantry squads SHOULD have that option to begin with.

As apparently the only person who liked Centaurs, I would like to point out that they were not on the list of things getting Legends rules in today's article. So I guess they're just straight-up gone.

I wanted to like Centaurs...just...could never justify them. They were so much $$$ for a unit that just evaporated on the table and brought zero firepower and cost as much as whatever it was carrying

Hopefully they'll re-appear, but it looks like the DKoK line is being wound down.

I liked them too. Also as a concept. While I don't have the original model, I have a "counts as" to drive around my Company Commander and his Squad.

Well my optimism was misplaced. This is just sad:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/10/29/imperial-armour-compendium-return-of-the-death-korps-of-krieg/
GWs false excitement that this is good for Krieg just makes it sting that much more. Damn and do I have a mountain of Krieg resin.

GW FB team allready deleted tons of posts. I got perma banned from posting, im no kreig player. But they dont deserve that treatment. So ill gladly take it.

This just killed some hype for 9th, it looks like gw are sticking with the "less is more" :(

 Brutallica wrote:
GW FB team allready deleted tons of posts. I got perma banned from posting, im no kreig player. But they dont deserve that treatment. So ill gladly take it.

This just killed some hype for 9th, it looks like gw are sticking with the "less is more" :(

Less is more, unless...