Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Do we want to swing things back to the days of every thread being 'Marines are baaad' or 'How to fix Terminators'? Marines need some top tier options and can't just be the plain white bread of 40k that other armies get to snack on.
The way to fix terminators is to squat them and move on to the all primaris era.
I'm more offended that there are still people to this day that think Terminators were good to begin with.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
BrianDavion wrote: even if an army is as good as anothers unit at doing X... I'm not sure why this is a problem
Yet again space marine sniper scouts and eldar rangers both occupied the same niche for ages, yet... NO ONE SEEMED TO MIND.
this "OHH MY GOD! ONLY MY ARMY CAN DO X! AND IF SOMEONE ELSE'S ARMY DOES X IT'S HORRIABLE" additude that people seem to be pushing lately is, in a word, CHILDISH
Then you're not understanding the issue. Marines had Snipers, Eldar had snipers. Marine Snipers were part of a unit that could do a bunch of other stuff too, and were ok snipers. The Eldar unit was a pure sniper unit, and while it wasn't flexible, it did the sniper thing better.
Then Primaris Eliminators came along with a hur-dur-we're-the bestest.
Unit1126PLL wrote: That's not true, Canadian, only because if they don't need the sword and heavy armor, then the person employing the troops is using them wrong.
If you have a sword and heavy armor, and you're paying for it, perhaps you should use it.
Yes, my Devastators should move up the field and take penalties to hit rather than staying in place and shooting at threats because if they do they might get to use their swords on something... Brilliant why haven't I thought of that before!
EDIT: This also only applies to the current meta where Marine units aren't paying fair points for what they do. If you increase their points costs to where they pay a 'fair' rate for what they can do they won't be able to pull that off.
Devastators don't have swords?
If you mean combat stats, then I would be very happy with cheap and powerful devastators if getting into melee with them was reliable. Did you know that 5 devastators kill 3-4 Daemonettes in melee, and 10 daemonettes kill one and a half Devastators in melee? For a shooting-only unit, those guys sure are scrappy. Make them WS4+, 1 attack with no Shock Assault or chainsword/ccw on the sergeant, and then we can make them cheaper. But they aren't generalists anymore.
Correct. Devs are still more capable in combat than Fire warriors or an IG weapons team. You need more to deal with them in melee.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/28 15:25:48
Honestly if you go back and look at Primaris (at least the inital batch) they where more or less what a LOT of Marine players said Marines needed to be to make them work.
Not really. That initial batch was pretty much universally panned for not being very good. It took multiple point reductions and many additional special rules to get them into consideration.
Now as for them taking up design space, I think we need to look at it from a larger point of view,
Let's look at some classic units. Space Marine Sniper Scouts compared to Eldar Rangers . both are historicly, troops, and are snipers (I know scouts have been moved to elites but In this case we're talking broad history)
Honestly in mANY MANY situations these are pretty similer units. they both essentially have the same weapon (36 inch heavy 1 sniper rifle that does a mortal wound on a 6 and ignores LOS)
both have a camo cloak. you never saw people feel that one somehow disallowed the other.
So just because Army X has "niche unit Y" doesn't mean that same niche can't be filled in another army. In fact, some niches are just too important not to have an option. (snipers being an obvious example)
That's either a disingenuous point, or you've misunderstood the thrust of the argument (sometimes I feel like you have a balanced view of things and other times I swear if marines got a rule that said "if a "6" is rolled at any time on any die the Marines automatically win", you'd find a way to argue that the rule is fine, so it's hard to tell where you're coming from at times). You say "Let's look at it from a larger point of view", but then zoom in to a fairly small level. You went the opposite direction. In addition to the examples people already gave of why your comparison doesn't really pan out well, the argument isn't about individual units. It's about army identities. Two armies having potentially overlapping units is essentially meaningless i the context of this discussion.
The issue at play, as others have said is the greater identities. It use to be that marines were generally ok at everything, but the point is, they could do everything. Some armies could shoot, but not much else, some were melee experts but couldn't shoot, others were fast and could outmanuever you. None of them could be built to shift in and out of those modes, and when they did something well, they almost couldn't do the other thing at all. Tau and shooting vs melee is great example. Marines meanwhile, could engage on all of these fronts to some degree but wouldn't be able to do your "one thing" as well as you.
The current marines? Yeah - they can be built to do "your thing" better than you (sometimes significantly so), and they give up nothing for it. While armies like 'nids have been stuck playing zero sum games for multiple editions, and armies like DE have only lost units over the last few years while also becoming an incoherent mess, I can build a marine army that can outshoot Tau while still being really good at close combat and manuevering. They give up almost nothing to do this and that's what the complaint is here. You can, essentially, build a marine army that does another army's specialty BETTER than that army, but that gives up almost nothing in return for this.
That said, I'm hoping this gets readjusted with the Chaos and Xenos books for 9th and that their release renders that complaint untrue. Hopefully. Fingers crossed. Not holding my breath based on the last 2-3 years though. lol
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
Slayer-Fan123 793391 10969025 wrote:
The way to fix terminators is to squat them and move on to the all primaris era.
I'm more offended that there are still people to this day that think Terminators were good to begin with.
From what I have been told GK paladins were one of the better armies at some point. Why shouldn't someone expect them to return to being good, if GW could have had them with a good rule set in the past?
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Slayer-Fan123 793391 10969025 wrote: The way to fix terminators is to squat them and move on to the all primaris era.
I'm more offended that there are still people to this day that think Terminators were good to begin with.
From what I have been told GK paladins were one of the better armies at some point. Why shouldn't someone expect them to return to being good, if GW could have had them with a good rule set in the past?
Because if any SM can go through a process to become a primaris then caul can start walking every GK through it and see who survives. If GK are supposed to be super specialized best of the best for facing chaos then the new more resistant to chaos primaris organs are needed for them to continue to function in their role. New primaris paladins in specialized gravis with iron halos can be the thing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/28 17:09:51
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Because if any SM can go through a process to become a primaris then caul can start walking every GK through it and see who survives. If GK are supposed to be super specialized best of the best for facing chaos then the new more resistant to chaos primaris organs are needed for them to continue to function in their role. New primaris paladins in specialized gravis with iron halos can be the thing.
You're not wrong, but "Specialized Gravis Paladins with Iron Halos" makes me mildly queasy. lol
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
Because if any SM can go through a process to become a primaris then caul can start walking every GK through it and see who survives. If GK are supposed to be super specialized best of the best for facing chaos then the new more resistant to chaos primaris organs are needed for them to continue to function in their role. New primaris paladins in specialized gravis with iron halos can be the thing.
You're not wrong, but "Specialized Gravis Paladins with Iron Halos" makes me mildly queasy. lol
Well it's that or the whole faction eventually gets squatted. I dunno what to tell you.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Slayer-Fan123 793391 10969025 wrote:
The way to fix terminators is to squat them and move on to the all primaris era.
I'm more offended that there are still people to this day that think Terminators were good to begin with.
From what I have been told GK paladins were one of the better armies at some point. Why shouldn't someone expect them to return to being good, if GW could have had them with a good rule set in the past?
Because if any SM can go through a process to become a primaris then caul can start walking every GK through it and see who survives. If GK are supposed to be super specialized best of the best for facing chaos then the new more resistant to chaos primaris organs are needed for them to continue to function in their role. New primaris paladins in specialized gravis with iron halos can be the thing.
Well Grey Knights are gonna get W+1 with the new codex but I really don't think anyone would disagree they should've had A2 to begin with.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Except have GW finally changed the rules to allow you to do that in a custodes detachment without it breaking it being mono custodes and you gaining the +1 invulnerable save etc?
Yes they have. that was the "big news" for custodes in PA. it's why, to be blunt we're even talking about SOS.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
As I dont own custodes mt SoS go to battle on their own so I've been using them the same old way but as they're more a for fun fluff addition they kind of got removed from playability by the rampit increase of marine cheese after codex 2.0 in 8th as even in "frendly games" you had to take a tournament level list.
The last couple of months I've been doing a homebrew Marine codex to basically cover this. For strict uniqueness I'm thinking along the lines of maybe:
1. Dark Angels get their fancy statue Speeder, Ravenwing Knights, Deathwing Knights, and the Deathwing Champion
2. Blood Angels keep Death Company, Sanguine Guard, Sanguine Priest (not the novice) and the Death Company Dread
3. Space Wolves keep Ferisian Wolves, Calvary, Blood Claws (with a consolidated profile to keep the Biker and Jump versions), Wulfen, and I'd like to see Lone Wolves as well
For the existing Chapters I'm leaning towards this direction:
1. Ultramarines get to keep Victrix Honour Guard, Tyranid War Vets (which should be reworked to be more generic unit rather than just some Marines with a hateboner for Tyranids, more akin to Sternguard of old/Deathwatch Vets), the Rhino Primaris, and I've been theory crafting a support Character that doesn't step on the Ancient's toes, like helping ignore negative modifiers to hit and wound from the opponent.
2. Iron Hands gain a Dreadnought HQ with the Captain aura basically, Iron Father, Helfathers (which are hard to work on not gonna lie since we know the basics but not much else), and I'm currently working on a shield unit inspired by 30k Immortals but obviously not directly.
3. Imperial Fists get Vet status Centurions, a support Character that can add +1 Damage or reroll damage of a squad's Heavy Weapons going after Buildings/Vehicles/Monsters, Breachers, and a souped up Imperial Bastion
4. White Scars keep the Khan on (and off) the Bike but he would need a completely different identity compared to the Captain (I hadn't thought of anything yet for an ability, but probably a bonus to advance and charge), an Honour Guard equivalent on bikes, a specialized Speeder Storm for Power Armor dudes (which I might rid of since why shouldn't all Chapters have access to something like that?), and I'm working on a last one.
5. Raven Guard will get an elite Sniper unit (with Eliminators being, well, eliminated, and relegated to a simpler Sniper rifle and consolidated Infiltrator/Scout profile), an equivalent of the 30k Moritat, then an equivalent of the 30k Destroyer squads, and I'm working on a last one
6. Salamanders I haven't done anything for yet because Salamanders suck
Successors will then have access to a couple of those specialized units (after all, why wouldn't Blood Angels successors still have Death Company?), and then maybe replace some for other ones to show some sorta deviation being Successors and all that. To make sure that doesn't get all broken, on top of those limitations, I'm already charting out how Successors will operate when choosing Chapter Tactics (with the core aspect staying and the Successors get to choose their secondary part. After all I think we can all agree an Iron Hands successor is NOT Stealthy, so why is that a thing to begin with?)
Unknown Founding will get more free reign in all these aspects in turn for losing Strat and Relic access and different interactions with allies.
Renegades lose all the specialized units in place of a few Chaotic entries, including Spawn, Possessed, Furies, and I'm working on a fourth one.
Once you fittingly split the wargear choices amongst the Chapters along with various units you'll find nothing is actually missed, unless one actually misses bloat (and who would?)
You don't need 8+ different codices to be unique and you don't need arbitrary wargear restrictions for the sake of pretending the two Marines are different.
This is a slow ass project due to making sure that consolidation isn't fething whack as hell but I'm happy with it so far.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The last couple of months I've been doing a homebrew Marine codex to basically cover this. For strict uniqueness I'm thinking along the lines of maybe:
1. Dark Angels get their fancy statue Speeder, Ravenwing Knights, Deathwing Knights, and the Deathwing Champion
2. Blood Angels keep Death Company, Sanguine Guard, Sanguine Priest (not the novice) and the Death Company Dread
3. Space Wolves keep Ferisian Wolves, Calvary, Blood Claws (with a consolidated profile to keep the Biker and Jump versions), Wulfen, and I'd like to see Lone Wolves as well
For the existing Chapters I'm leaning towards this direction:
1. Ultramarines get to keep Victrix Honour Guard, Tyranid War Vets (which should be reworked to be more generic unit rather than just some Marines with a hateboner for Tyranids, more akin to Sternguard of old/Deathwatch Vets), the Rhino Primaris, and I've been theory crafting a support Character that doesn't step on the Ancient's toes, like helping ignore negative modifiers to hit and wound from the opponent.
2. Iron Hands gain a Dreadnought HQ with the Captain aura basically, Iron Father, Helfathers (which are hard to work on not gonna lie since we know the basics but not much else), and I'm currently working on a shield unit inspired by 30k Immortals but obviously not directly.
3. Imperial Fists get Vet status Centurions, a support Character that can add +1 Damage or reroll damage of a squad's Heavy Weapons going after Buildings/Vehicles/Monsters, Breachers, and a souped up Imperial Bastion
4. White Scars keep the Khan on (and off) the Bike but he would need a completely different identity compared to the Captain (I hadn't thought of anything yet for an ability, but probably a bonus to advance and charge), an Honour Guard equivalent on bikes, a specialized Speeder Storm for Power Armor dudes (which I might rid of since why shouldn't all Chapters have access to something like that?), and I'm working on a last one.
5. Raven Guard will get an elite Sniper unit (with Eliminators being, well, eliminated, and relegated to a simpler Sniper rifle and consolidated Infiltrator/Scout profile), an equivalent of the 30k Moritat, then an equivalent of the 30k Destroyer squads, and I'm working on a last one
6. Salamanders I haven't done anything for yet because Salamanders suck
Successors will then have access to a couple of those specialized units (after all, why wouldn't Blood Angels successors still have Death Company?), and then maybe replace some for other ones to show some sorta deviation being Successors and all that. To make sure that doesn't get all broken, on top of those limitations, I'm already charting out how Successors will operate when choosing Chapter Tactics (with the core aspect staying and the Successors get to choose their secondary part. After all I think we can all agree an Iron Hands successor is NOT Stealthy, so why is that a thing to begin with?)
Unknown Founding will get more free reign in all these aspects in turn for losing Strat and Relic access and different interactions with allies.
Renegades lose all the specialized units in place of a few Chaotic entries, including Spawn, Possessed, Furies, and I'm working on a fourth one.
Once you fittingly split the wargear choices amongst the Chapters along with various units you'll find nothing is actually missed, unless one actually misses bloat (and who would?)
You don't need 8+ different codices to be unique and you don't need arbitrary wargear restrictions for the sake of pretending the two Marines are different.
This is a slow ass project due to making sure that consolidation isn't fething whack as hell but I'm happy with it so far.
Interesting that Space Marines are even taking up YOUR design space XD ... sorry, couldn't help myself...
What about the other details like Wolfgaurd termies with combi weapons ? would having a wolfgaurd unit member still be a thing ? just curious or is the idea to remove the flavour aim everyone at vanila and just justify the existing unique kits ?
Not a bad effort but seems like a lot of work which honestly could be focused on developing up the xenos factions.
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
Wolfguard termies are just veteran termites... CSM terminators are also just one entry and represent a whole slew more options and models and not one CSM player cries about that..
And do you know why?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/28 21:54:25
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Not Online!!! wrote: Wolfguard termies are just veteran termites... CSM terminators are also just one entry and represent a whole slew more options and models and not one CSM player cries about that..
There is a datasheet called vet termies ?
Vet termies can have SS and combi weapons or TH and combi weapons and mixed assault termies and shooting variant and mixed inbetween ?
AND be added as additional member to tactical marine squads ? or an additional member to an assault squad ?
When did that happen ?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Either way, this all seems like a lot of attention and work being put into removing stuff for the purpose of finding more time to put attention into other stuff.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/28 21:59:51
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
Not Online!!! wrote: Wolfguard termies are just veteran termites... CSM terminators are also just one entry and represent a whole slew more options and models and not one CSM player cries about that..
There is a datasheet called vet termies ?
Vet termies can have SS and combi weapons or TH and combi weapons and mixed assault termies and shooting variant and mixed inbetween ?
AND be added as additional member to tactical marine squads ? or an additional member to an assault squad ?
When did that happen ?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Either way, this all seems like a lot of attention and work being put into removing stuff for the purpose of finding more time to put attention into other stuff.
Answer my question.. instead of strawmaning.
I'll even give you a hint...
it starts with C.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Not Online!!! wrote: Wolfguard termies are just veteran termites... CSM terminators are also just one entry and represent a whole slew more options and models and not one CSM player cries about that..
There is a datasheet called vet termies ?
Vet termies can have SS and combi weapons or TH and combi weapons and mixed assault termies and shooting variant and mixed inbetween ?
AND be added as additional member to tactical marine squads ? or an additional member to an assault squad ?
When did that happen ?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Either way, this all seems like a lot of attention and work being put into removing stuff for the purpose of finding more time to put attention into other stuff.
Answer my question.. instead of strawmaning.
I'll even give you a hint...
it starts with C.
when I responded to you didn't post a question,,, that came after an edit LOL ... don't accuse me of strawmaning when you edited in the question later.
now, that you actually have proposed a question : its because flavourwise chaos marines have traditionally been able to take individual load outs and alternative load outs to loyalist marine termies.
Not to mention Chaos termies do not have access to the variety of wargear that assault termies and the shooty variety have combined and definitly nowhere close to the variety afforded and wargear composition choices that wolfgaurd have. Neither the chaos and none SW termies have the option of having an individual termie placed into a tactical/grey hunter/CSM squad except for wolf gaurd. Also chaos termies and wolfgaurd termies do not have access to teleport homers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: p.s. C is for cookie.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2020/10/28 22:09:44
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
no, again. WHY does it not matter to CSM that there are tartaros or normal csm terminators in one slot?
CUSTOMIZABILITY...
There is no issue with all the differing types of CSM termites that exist in the lore because the entry lets YOU, THE PLAYER, decide.
There is NO NEED for a diffrent termite sheet
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Type40 wrote: when I responded to you didn't post a question,,, that came after an edit LOL ... don't accuse me of strawmaning when you edited in the question later.
now, that you actually have proposed a question : its because flavourwise chaos marines have traditionally been able to take individual load outs and alternative load outs to loyalist marine termies.
Not to mention Chaos termies do not have access to the variety of wargear that assault termies and the shooty variety have combined and definitly nowhere close to the variety afforded and wargear composition choices that wolfgaurd have. Neither the chaos and none SW termies have the option of having an individual termie placed into a tactical/grey hunter/CSM squad except for wolf gaurd. Also chaos termies and wolfgaurd termies do not have access to teleport homers.
Yes, because Chaos is well known for stagnating and standardization. They always fight uniformly, and consider advancing tech to be taboo.
Right?
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Not Online!!! wrote: no, again. WHY does it not matter to CSM that there are tartaros or normal csm terminators in one slot?
CUSTOMIZABILITY...
There is no issue with all the differing types of CSM termites that exist in the lore because the entry lets YOU, THE PLAYER, decide.
There is NO NEED for a diffrent termite sheet
GW seems to think there is.
restrictions and affordances for different factions has been part of the game since the very beginning. Forcing you to make different tactical decisions depending on your faction and thus affecting tactics, play style, and choices when using specific units.
So its either different sheets or one sheet with loads of different exceptions , affordances, and alternative rules... Unless the goal is to vanillafy particular factions. Or if your goal is to provide even more min/max potential for ALL general space marines. instead of allowing it as a reward for choose particular sub faction and giving up certain other rules...
We can't say all these factions are exactly the same if the only way to make them exactly the same is to literally erase everything that makes them different.
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
Not Online!!! wrote: no, again. WHY does it not matter to CSM that there are tartaros or normal csm terminators in one slot?
CUSTOMIZABILITY...
There is no issue with all the differing types of CSM termites that exist in the lore because the entry lets YOU, THE PLAYER, decide.
There is NO NEED for a diffrent termite sheet
It just makes stuff easier. Assault, Relic and standard Terminators have the same basic stat line, and different sets of equipment to go with that. If you combine all of that into one datasheet, you either get a clusterfeth of "upgrade this but only while that" to keep Terminators from becoming too versatile (by mixing and matching all the options you have right now separated in three datasheets), or you have just made Terminators that much more versatile.
a single page of paper more or less really doesn't matter, and unless you're obsessed with the number of datasheets each faction has this has absolutely no impact.
And every single terminator is by definition a veteran, like Brian said.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/28 22:20:23
Type40 wrote: when I responded to you didn't post a question,,, that came after an edit LOL ... don't accuse me of strawmaning when you edited in the question later.
now, that you actually have proposed a question : its because flavourwise chaos marines have traditionally been able to take individual load outs and alternative load outs to loyalist marine termies.
Not to mention Chaos termies do not have access to the variety of wargear that assault termies and the shooty variety have combined and definitly nowhere close to the variety afforded and wargear composition choices that wolfgaurd have. Neither the chaos and none SW termies have the option of having an individual termie placed into a tactical/grey hunter/CSM squad except for wolf gaurd. Also chaos termies and wolfgaurd termies do not have access to teleport homers.
Yes, because Chaos is well known for stagnating and standardization. They always fight uniformly, and consider advancing tech to be taboo.
Right?
That's hard to answer, I talk a lot more then chaos having access to combi weapons in my post... but from my perspective, what ever "reason" chaos does that doesn't mater. The affordances and restrictions they are given is what gives their table top flavour and what causes their players to have different tactics, list choices, and play which feels different from loyalist players... the lore justification is secondary, the play difference is primary.
SWs also have a different table top flavour much like CSM with their terminators and some lore justifications for it aswell.
Again,,, sure, they will be exactly the same, once you erase everything that makes them different.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/28 22:24:36
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
regarding chaos, I'd be 100% behind them getting more options. CSMs should be wanting to move up to LSMs level, not drag every codex down to their, admittingly craptacular, level
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Not to mention, why are we advocating for general SMs to have access to even more min/max potential without any need for any of the current drawbacks for getting those customization options... I would think that giving SM yet another specialty of CSM would be frowned upon.
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
BrianDavion wrote: regarding chaos, I'd be 100% behind them getting more options. CSMs should be wanting to move up to LSMs level, not drag every codex down to their, admittingly craptacular, level
Oh, for sure. It just bugs me that the Loyalist (and not even Primaris Loyalists-regular ol' Terminators) have more options than CSM Terminators, when the Imperium is 10,000 years of stagnation and dogma, while Chaos is a lot more free to make improvements. It seems bass ackwards.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The last couple of months I've been doing a homebrew Marine codex to basically cover this. For strict uniqueness I'm thinking along the lines of maybe:
1. Dark Angels get their fancy statue Speeder, Ravenwing Knights, Deathwing Knights, and the Deathwing Champion
2. Blood Angels keep Death Company, Sanguine Guard, Sanguine Priest (not the novice) and the Death Company Dread
3. Space Wolves keep Ferisian Wolves, Calvary, Blood Claws (with a consolidated profile to keep the Biker and Jump versions), Wulfen, and I'd like to see Lone Wolves as well
For the existing Chapters I'm leaning towards this direction:
1. Ultramarines get to keep Victrix Honour Guard, Tyranid War Vets (which should be reworked to be more generic unit rather than just some Marines with a hateboner for Tyranids, more akin to Sternguard of old/Deathwatch Vets), the Rhino Primaris, and I've been theory crafting a support Character that doesn't step on the Ancient's toes, like helping ignore negative modifiers to hit and wound from the opponent.
2. Iron Hands gain a Dreadnought HQ with the Captain aura basically, Iron Father, Helfathers (which are hard to work on not gonna lie since we know the basics but not much else), and I'm currently working on a shield unit inspired by 30k Immortals but obviously not directly.
3. Imperial Fists get Vet status Centurions, a support Character that can add +1 Damage or reroll damage of a squad's Heavy Weapons going after Buildings/Vehicles/Monsters, Breachers, and a souped up Imperial Bastion
4. White Scars keep the Khan on (and off) the Bike but he would need a completely different identity compared to the Captain (I hadn't thought of anything yet for an ability, but probably a bonus to advance and charge), an Honour Guard equivalent on bikes, a specialized Speeder Storm for Power Armor dudes (which I might rid of since why shouldn't all Chapters have access to something like that?), and I'm working on a last one.
5. Raven Guard will get an elite Sniper unit (with Eliminators being, well, eliminated, and relegated to a simpler Sniper rifle and consolidated Infiltrator/Scout profile), an equivalent of the 30k Moritat, then an equivalent of the 30k Destroyer squads, and I'm working on a last one
6. Salamanders I haven't done anything for yet because Salamanders suck
Successors will then have access to a couple of those specialized units (after all, why wouldn't Blood Angels successors still have Death Company?), and then maybe replace some for other ones to show some sorta deviation being Successors and all that. To make sure that doesn't get all broken, on top of those limitations, I'm already charting out how Successors will operate when choosing Chapter Tactics (with the core aspect staying and the Successors get to choose their secondary part. After all I think we can all agree an Iron Hands successor is NOT Stealthy, so why is that a thing to begin with?)
Unknown Founding will get more free reign in all these aspects in turn for losing Strat and Relic access and different interactions with allies.
Renegades lose all the specialized units in place of a few Chaotic entries, including Spawn, Possessed, Furies, and I'm working on a fourth one.
Once you fittingly split the wargear choices amongst the Chapters along with various units you'll find nothing is actually missed, unless one actually misses bloat (and who would?)
You don't need 8+ different codices to be unique and you don't need arbitrary wargear restrictions for the sake of pretending the two Marines are different.
This is a slow ass project due to making sure that consolidation isn't fething whack as hell but I'm happy with it so far.
Interesting that Space Marines are even taking up YOUR design space XD ... sorry, couldn't help myself...
What about the other details like Wolfgaurd termies with combi weapons ? would having a wolfgaurd unit member still be a thing ? just curious or is the idea to remove the flavour aim everyone at vanila and just justify the existing unique kits ?
Not a bad effort but seems like a lot of work which honestly could be focused on developing up the xenos factions.
If you saw my even half asked attempts at fixing 7th you'll see I put care into Tyranids (where everyone got various abilities depending which Synapse creature was affecting them) and Orks (where each squad gained more and more abilities as the squad size grew). I would try to keep that in line for those and Eldar would be the next step. Necrons are ALMOST there but need some work.
The reason is I'm frustrated at the bloat of the game. While the project itself seems large in terms of rules, the ultimate goal of losing unit entries that simply aren't necessary and making Marines more of ease to balance (and create lists at that).
Also the Lone Wolf would basically be able to fulfill any role the Wolf Guard leaders might have in terms of being a character. In terms of crunch they honestly don't add anything. Terminators are to have a consolidated profile (so no more four entries) and Combi-Weapons are available, correct.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
BrianDavion wrote: regarding chaos, I'd be 100% behind them getting more options. CSMs should be wanting to move up to LSMs level, not drag every codex down to their, admittingly craptacular, level
100% CSM termies should get access to SS at least IMO ... or maybe some other kind of very available unique equipment... that would be cool.
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The last couple of months I've been doing a homebrew Marine codex to basically cover this. For strict uniqueness I'm thinking along the lines of maybe:
1. Dark Angels get their fancy statue Speeder, Ravenwing Knights, Deathwing Knights, and the Deathwing Champion
2. Blood Angels keep Death Company, Sanguine Guard, Sanguine Priest (not the novice) and the Death Company Dread
3. Space Wolves keep Ferisian Wolves, Calvary, Blood Claws (with a consolidated profile to keep the Biker and Jump versions), Wulfen, and I'd like to see Lone Wolves as well
For the existing Chapters I'm leaning towards this direction:
1. Ultramarines get to keep Victrix Honour Guard, Tyranid War Vets (which should be reworked to be more generic unit rather than just some Marines with a hateboner for Tyranids, more akin to Sternguard of old/Deathwatch Vets), the Rhino Primaris, and I've been theory crafting a support Character that doesn't step on the Ancient's toes, like helping ignore negative modifiers to hit and wound from the opponent.
2. Iron Hands gain a Dreadnought HQ with the Captain aura basically, Iron Father, Helfathers (which are hard to work on not gonna lie since we know the basics but not much else), and I'm currently working on a shield unit inspired by 30k Immortals but obviously not directly.
3. Imperial Fists get Vet status Centurions, a support Character that can add +1 Damage or reroll damage of a squad's Heavy Weapons going after Buildings/Vehicles/Monsters, Breachers, and a souped up Imperial Bastion
4. White Scars keep the Khan on (and off) the Bike but he would need a completely different identity compared to the Captain (I hadn't thought of anything yet for an ability, but probably a bonus to advance and charge), an Honour Guard equivalent on bikes, a specialized Speeder Storm for Power Armor dudes (which I might rid of since why shouldn't all Chapters have access to something like that?), and I'm working on a last one.
5. Raven Guard will get an elite Sniper unit (with Eliminators being, well, eliminated, and relegated to a simpler Sniper rifle and consolidated Infiltrator/Scout profile), an equivalent of the 30k Moritat, then an equivalent of the 30k Destroyer squads, and I'm working on a last one
6. Salamanders I haven't done anything for yet because Salamanders suck
Successors will then have access to a couple of those specialized units (after all, why wouldn't Blood Angels successors still have Death Company?), and then maybe replace some for other ones to show some sorta deviation being Successors and all that. To make sure that doesn't get all broken, on top of those limitations, I'm already charting out how Successors will operate when choosing Chapter Tactics (with the core aspect staying and the Successors get to choose their secondary part. After all I think we can all agree an Iron Hands successor is NOT Stealthy, so why is that a thing to begin with?)
Unknown Founding will get more free reign in all these aspects in turn for losing Strat and Relic access and different interactions with allies.
Renegades lose all the specialized units in place of a few Chaotic entries, including Spawn, Possessed, Furies, and I'm working on a fourth one.
Once you fittingly split the wargear choices amongst the Chapters along with various units you'll find nothing is actually missed, unless one actually misses bloat (and who would?)
You don't need 8+ different codices to be unique and you don't need arbitrary wargear restrictions for the sake of pretending the two Marines are different.
This is a slow ass project due to making sure that consolidation isn't fething whack as hell but I'm happy with it so far.
Interesting that Space Marines are even taking up YOUR design space XD ... sorry, couldn't help myself...
What about the other details like Wolfgaurd termies with combi weapons ? would having a wolfgaurd unit member still be a thing ? just curious or is the idea to remove the flavour aim everyone at vanila and just justify the existing unique kits ?
Not a bad effort but seems like a lot of work which honestly could be focused on developing up the xenos factions.
If you saw my even half asked attempts at fixing 7th you'll see I put care into Tyranids (where everyone got various abilities depending which Synapse creature was affecting them) and Orks (where each squad gained more and more abilities as the squad size grew). I would try to keep that in line for those and Eldar would be the next step. Necrons are ALMOST there but need some work.
The reason is I'm frustrated at the bloat of the game. While the project itself seems large in terms of rules, the ultimate goal of losing unit entries that simply aren't necessary and making Marines more of ease to balance (and create lists at that).
Also the Lone Wolf would basically be able to fulfill any role the Wolf Guard leaders might have in terms of being a character. In terms of crunch they honestly don't add anything. Terminators are to have a consolidated profile (so no more four entries) and Combi-Weapons are available, correct.
Totally fair. I really just don't wana see any loss of the actual unique mechanics, rules, and flavours of the really divergent subfactions.
But I do understand the motivation for your project. If the flavour is preserved , I am all for it.
BrianDavion wrote: regarding chaos, I'd be 100% behind them getting more options. CSMs should be wanting to move up to LSMs level, not drag every codex down to their, admittingly craptacular, level
Oh, for sure. It just bugs me that the Loyalist (and not even Primaris Loyalists-regular ol' Terminators) have more options than CSM Terminators, when the Imperium is 10,000 years of stagnation and dogma, while Chaos is a lot more free to make improvements. It seems bass ackwards.
100% agree with this.
I think CSM Termies should be even more divergent from the Wolfgaurd ones. I think CSM termies should have a variety of unique equipment, especially without access to SSs. they shouldn't feel like worse wolfgaurd termies, or even worse loyalist termies with more variety... instead they should feel like different but equally as interesting to play termies.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/28 22:34:55
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
Not Online!!! wrote: no, again. WHY does it not matter to CSM that there are tartaros or normal csm terminators in one slot?
CUSTOMIZABILITY...
There is no issue with all the differing types of CSM termites that exist in the lore because the entry lets YOU, THE PLAYER, decide.
There is NO NEED for a diffrent termite sheet
THANK YOU. Separate entries for the sake of separate entries are just a nono. What happens when a Chapter has 3 suits of Cata, 3 suits of Tart, and 3 suits of Indo? They just NEVER get fielded together ever?
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Not Online!!! wrote: no, again. WHY does it not matter to CSM that there are tartaros or normal csm terminators in one slot?
CUSTOMIZABILITY...
There is no issue with all the differing types of CSM termites that exist in the lore because the entry lets YOU, THE PLAYER, decide.
There is NO NEED for a diffrent termite sheet
THANK YOU. Separate entries for the sake of separate entries are just a nono. What happens when a Chapter has 3 suits of Cata, 3 suits of Tart, and 3 suits of Indo? They just NEVER get fielded together ever?
So what do you do about the min-maxing potential that you just gave SM player by allowing them to customize like wolf-gaurd but not get the restrictions of specifically using SWs and not having teleport homers ? Also, you just removed the unique customization options CSM had as a privilege and gave SMs a better version of it. Also, now it wont feel unique or significant that the faction you may have chosen had that level of customization options... so you loose the rules flavour specifically afforded to you for choosing certain factions and you lose the extra tactical options you had from that affordance because now SMs have a better version of it.
Why would we remove restrictions on a faction that already has to many affordances for free ? why give loyalists one of the few options CSM have that the loyalist didnt get ? seems counter intuitive.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Then, if you leave in all the different restrictions, affordances, chapter rules, chapter unit size differnces, unit composition differences (like including a wolfgaurd terminator in a tactical marine unit) and etc... on that one datasheet... The sheet is going to be a User Interface nightmare... it would have been better to keep them separate. So your options for a single datasheet unit of termies is to consolidate ALL the rules and options with no restrictions,,, leaving incredible min/max potential and causing CSM to be have even less unique load outs compared to SMs,... have an unreadable mess of restrictions, exceptions, and unit compositions or,... you can vanilify all the options and admit that the units wern't really that similar in the first place whilst simultaneously vanillafying unique units, causing players to have to get rid of their unique wargear options, tactical options and the unique flavour of game play a player chose or bought into.
So I guess you could have one datasheet... but i can't see how it would help... the work in even figuring out the best way to approach this could be spent focusing on other factions than Power Armor factions,,, in my opinion.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, just noticed this
Also the Lone Wolf would basically be able to fulfill any role the Wolf Guard leaders might have in terms of being a character. In terms of crunch they honestly don't add anything.
You don't see how it could be tactically significant or useful to have a Terminator , potentially with a SS, in a tactical marine/grey hunter unit ? that is very different from having a character running around near by. Not to mention the character has to take up an extra slot...
This message was edited 19 times. Last update was at 2020/10/29 00:50:29
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
