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Because it it an irrelevant period. It's like caring who wins preseason football games.
That seems like an odd take, considering it took what, 1 and a half year, basically half of the entire editions runtime, before everyone got their Codex. Just in time for muhreens to get their second one of course.
Simplistic way to look at it. At what point did most armies in competitive play enter with a codex army? That is the end of index hammer and the beginning of codex hammer 8th edition. I think it was about the time of the first chapter approved. The game changed so much in this time - there is no reason to even look at results before this. First turn deep strike is such a huge change too. It's why I mentioned the first chapter approved.
Because it it an irrelevant period. It's like caring who wins preseason football games.
LMAO, who cares about that first 18 months of 8th edition where not everyone had a codex, that doesn't count.
It wasn't 18 months. It was like 4-6.
Once imperial guard and eldar came out. Marines were out of the game essentially. What's funny is index orks and index sisters out performed marines after this point lol.
Show the evidence. Show your work.
And here's the rub-let's say you're able to find a dozen top-level tournaments where Marines get handily crushed and their highest ranking was 50/200 or so. Does that mean that it's okay for Marines to be OP now, because they sucked before? Even accepting the "they sucked before" as true, that doesn't follow to "So they should be OP now."
Before you say "They're not OP!" one of their basic troops choices, which is a generalist unit, outfights Orks and Genestealers, and outshoots Tau.
Does it matter if my 100 point intercessors outshoot your 90 point firewarriors if...your 250 point broadsides are immune to my intercessors and remove intercessors with trival ease? This argument is so easily countered by custodian gaurd. The gaurd shoot pretty even with them against each other. In melee its a joke. They wipe them out. Per point.
Gasp shock and horror! An artillery heavy support unit can wipe out a generalist troop unit? Say it ain't so! It's certainly not like you could deep strike turn one and melt them with Multi-Meltas to the face! Or use obscuring terrain to avoid taking anything but 4 S5 AP-1 D1 shots hitting on a 4+ from each 100+ point Broadside!
Not to mention, you cap at 9 Broadsides, for over 1,000 points. By all means, put at least half your points in nine T5 W6 2+ baskets. There's certainly no weapons that Marines have that can pop them without too much difficulty.
That's not the point. That heavy support units kills marines like they are gaurdsmen. But you still pay 3x more for a marine. Seriously you are trolling if you can not acknowledge this.
So, each Broadside kills, with 8 S7 AP-2 Dd3 shots and 4 S5 AP-1 D1 shots...
About four and a half GEQ in one turn.
...or...
One and four fifths MEQ.
The MEQ do bleed points faster (about 70 points of Intercessors compared to only 22.5 points of GEQ) but against, say, Fire Warriors, they die at exactly the same rate in points. Unless cover gets involved-that favors the Marines by a large margin.
catbarf wrote: ITT 'my basic generalist unit beating every other basic generalist unit (and many specialist units, for that matter) is fine because dedicated anti-MEQ specialists can beat it'
Anyone remember back when Xeno was complaining that Guard were underpriced and beat the crap out of Intercessors point-for-point? Someone should have informed him that his complaint was invalid because Aggressors exist.
Theres that word basic and also generalist.
Basic troops dont cost 20 PPM compared to the average 7-9. Generalist aren't specialist anti infantry units like intercessors. Fire warriors are a support unit. Space marine are shock troops. Stop trying to break it down to being more simple than it is while simultaneously getting these units roles. The reason marines have sucked forever is because they have paid too much for stats they cant use. Decent melee with no real way to make melee. Decent toughness that is completely ignored by heavy weapons. That is a huge risk putting points into those stats with very little gains capable because they don't deal a lot of damage. You can't expect units like this "full price" for everything.
Simple question, Xeno.
Should Intercessors be better at shooting than Fire Warriors?
Should they be better at fighting than Ork Boys or Genestealers?
This is point for point, not model to model.
Well they don't do ether of those things. Both those units are just bad vs units with good armor saves. You have to evaluate their shooting vs the same target with different profiles. Plus - a certain value of a unit is just existing. The less total points you spend on a unit means the less points they are putting into points that deal damage.
Example. Unit A cost half as much as unit B and shoots half as good.
You have 2 units A's each on an objective vs 1 unit B on 1 objective.
Tell me...How will unit B ever win? Especially when Unit B has to use melee to get any advantage...and is therefore...losing 2 objectives to 0 or 1 to 0 at best case?
Intercessors do pretty well against any type of infantry.
Chaff infantry out damage intercessors vs other chaff infantry though. Pretty much across the board.
Give me a unit to compare to. Go on-let me run the numbers.
Well and then special rules come into play and tau win this by a landslide. More to the point though. Those broadside also can kill tanks. That there is your generalist unit. It doesn't matter what it's shooting - it gets good returns. The intercessors on the other hand...only good against infantry. You want them to go even with infantry even though they bleed 3x the points against heavy shooting?
So that's a no? You cannot name a unit that you want compared?
As for shooting tanks... S7 is not good for the heavy tanks. It takes 15 Broadsides, equipped as said above, to kill one 4++ or 2+ Knight. You can't take that many Broadsides, and if you could, it would run you just shy of 2,000 points.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Because it it an irrelevant period. It's like caring who wins preseason football games.
That seems like an odd take, considering it took what, 1 and a half year, basically half of the entire editions runtime, before everyone got their Codex. Just in time for muhreens to get their second one of course.
Simplistic way to look at it. At what point did most armies in competitive play enter with a codex army? That is the end of index hammer and the beginning of codex hammer 8th edition. I think it was about the time of the first chapter approved. The game changed so much in this time - there is no reason to even look at results before this. First turn deep strike is such a huge change too. It's why I mentioned the first chapter approved.
Because it it an irrelevant period. It's like caring who wins preseason football games.
LMAO, who cares about that first 18 months of 8th edition where not everyone had a codex, that doesn't count.
It wasn't 18 months. It was like 4-6.
Once imperial guard and eldar came out. Marines were out of the game essentially. What's funny is index orks and index sisters out performed marines after this point lol.
Show the evidence. Show your work.
And here's the rub-let's say you're able to find a dozen top-level tournaments where Marines get handily crushed and their highest ranking was 50/200 or so. Does that mean that it's okay for Marines to be OP now, because they sucked before? Even accepting the "they sucked before" as true, that doesn't follow to "So they should be OP now."
Before you say "They're not OP!" one of their basic troops choices, which is a generalist unit, outfights Orks and Genestealers, and outshoots Tau.
Does it matter if my 100 point intercessors outshoot your 90 point firewarriors if...your 250 point broadsides are immune to my intercessors and remove intercessors with trival ease? This argument is so easily countered by custodian gaurd. The gaurd shoot pretty even with them against each other. In melee its a joke. They wipe them out. Per point.
Gasp shock and horror! An artillery heavy support unit can wipe out a generalist troop unit? Say it ain't so! It's certainly not like you could deep strike turn one and melt them with Multi-Meltas to the face! Or use obscuring terrain to avoid taking anything but 4 S5 AP-1 D1 shots hitting on a 4+ from each 100+ point Broadside!
Not to mention, you cap at 9 Broadsides, for over 1,000 points. By all means, put at least half your points in nine T5 W6 2+ baskets. There's certainly no weapons that Marines have that can pop them without too much difficulty.
That's not the point. That heavy support units kills marines like they are gaurdsmen. But you still pay 3x more for a marine. Seriously you are trolling if you can not acknowledge this.
So, each Broadside kills, with 8 S7 AP-2 Dd3 shots and 4 S5 AP-1 D1 shots...
About four and a half GEQ in one turn.
...or...
One and four fifths MEQ.
The MEQ do bleed points faster (about 70 points of Intercessors compared to only 22.5 points of GEQ) but against, say, Fire Warriors, they die at exactly the same rate in points. Unless cover gets involved-that favors the Marines by a large margin.
catbarf wrote: ITT 'my basic generalist unit beating every other basic generalist unit (and many specialist units, for that matter) is fine because dedicated anti-MEQ specialists can beat it'
Anyone remember back when Xeno was complaining that Guard were underpriced and beat the crap out of Intercessors point-for-point? Someone should have informed him that his complaint was invalid because Aggressors exist.
Theres that word basic and also generalist.
Basic troops dont cost 20 PPM compared to the average 7-9. Generalist aren't specialist anti infantry units like intercessors. Fire warriors are a support unit. Space marine are shock troops. Stop trying to break it down to being more simple than it is while simultaneously getting these units roles. The reason marines have sucked forever is because they have paid too much for stats they cant use. Decent melee with no real way to make melee. Decent toughness that is completely ignored by heavy weapons. That is a huge risk putting points into those stats with very little gains capable because they don't deal a lot of damage. You can't expect units like this "full price" for everything.
Simple question, Xeno.
Should Intercessors be better at shooting than Fire Warriors?
Should they be better at fighting than Ork Boys or Genestealers?
This is point for point, not model to model.
Well they don't do ether of those things. Both those units are just bad vs units with good armor saves. You have to evaluate their shooting vs the same target with different profiles. Plus - a certain value of a unit is just existing. The less total points you spend on a unit means the less points they are putting into points that deal damage.
Example. Unit A cost half as much as unit B and shoots half as good.
You have 2 units A's each on an objective vs 1 unit B on 1 objective.
Tell me...How will unit B ever win? Especially when Unit B has to use melee to get any advantage...and is therefore...losing 2 objectives to 0 or 1 to 0 at best case?
Intercessors do pretty well against any type of infantry.
Chaff infantry out damage intercessors vs other chaff infantry though. Pretty much across the board.
Give me a unit to compare to. Go on-let me run the numbers.
Well and then special rules come into play and tau win this by a landslide. More to the point though. Those broadside also can kill tanks. That there is your generalist unit. It doesn't matter what it's shooting - it gets good returns. The intercessors on the other hand...only good against infantry. You want them to go even with infantry even though they bleed 3x the points against heavy shooting?
So that's a no? You cannot name a unit that you want compared?
As for shooting tanks... S7 is not good for the heavy tanks. It takes 15 Broadsides, equipped as said above, to kill one 4++ or 2+ Knight. You can't take that many Broadsides, and if you could, it would run you just shy of 2,000 points.
Typically when you choose a str 7 vs t8 or any just 1 less type situation you will get horrible results. broadsides do great against t7 units and typically you are throwing a seeker missle on them as well which helps even more. A lot better than intercessors anyways which is the point. Broadside can kill chaff/ elites/ or tanks...just not titan lvl units. Though as tau sept with +1 to wound they abolsutely can too.
For every favorable match you can name for intercessors there is an unfavorable one. This this not the case with OP units. Eradicators on the other hand - they are just too good. No argument here.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
regarding the index, era BTW, I thought I'd present some dates.
8th edition launch: June 2017
Codex Space Marines 8.0: July 2017
Codex CSMs and Codex GKs: Aug 2017
Codex Death Guard: Sept 2017
Codex Admech Sept 2017
Codex Astra Millitarium Oct 2017
Codex: CWE Oct 2017
Codex Tyranids: Nov 2017
Codex Blood Angels: dec 2017
Codex Dark Angels Dec 2017
Now generally one can note distinct design change paradymes in an edition of 40k (such as in 7th edition generally one could class an army as eaither being pre or post necron codex)
8th edition IMHO had two cases of this.
Xeno isn't wrong that the inital 8th edition codices where fairly restrained. chapter tactics was only given to infantry bikes and dreads. for example. with the CWE and Guard codices, GW largely abandoned that and gave chapter tactics to everyone, outside of "marine" factions (and custodes because a 6++ invul save on a land raider would clearly be broken right?) the marine codices after this where still designed with this restrained mentality, but other codices less so.
The second shift, of course was the space marine 8.5 codex. which included some anti-soup rules and faction customization options this paradyme seems to be the current design philophsy for 9th edition codices, given the necrons have those traits as well.
I'm hoping they stick to the same design philophsy for all 0f 9th edition. generally speaking the biggest problem with 40k from a balance POV is when midway through the edition they completely change their entire design philophsy
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Quasistellar wrote: People keep coming back at me with this "horde" word as if it matters.
I said carpet of bodies.
Which even Ork Boyz can't do.
I mean, sure, Marines can't fit 300 models into a 2K pointer. Ok.
But if the idea is to drown the enemy in bodies, having half as many, but tougher bodies might still work. 100 Tactical Marines seems possible. The real question is if it actually outperforms 400 Gants. . . which, honestly, it might.
Incorrect - SOB index had higher winrate than all marine factions. Especially after the first few months of the edition shook out. Tau probably were better before their codex came out. Rule of 3 hurt them more than any other rules they got in their codex. Same with nids. Space wolves? Who cares...they are just another marine faction doing poorly - like they all were. Orks once they got their codex were great. Still outperforming marines with their own index. 40 stats is down right now or I'd show you exactly by time period. GK/SM/SW/DA - consistently below 45% WR for over 2 years. It is the bottom of the barrel dude!
And right back into Win rate as if that is a useful metric at the tournament level. Let me ask you this simple question, If SM get 3 of the top 4 places in a tournament but have a WR of 40% does that mean SM are doing poorly? The obvious answer is no. Well during that "OMG my speese mehreens are doing bad!" phase that you constantly talk about and try to use WR as proof, SMs were winning tournaments and placing HIGHLY in GTs and the biggest events like Adepticon and LVO. So no, no matter how much you want to complain, SM were doing just fine, you guys were solidly mid tier with a build that was so competitive that it was winning major events.
You constantly are misrepresenting data to try and prove a point nobody else agrees with, it would be nice if you could just admit that your point (Marines were bottom tier) is wrong.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/29 23:19:57
pothocboots wrote: I don't think quasistellar's idea is to drown the enemy in bodies, rather the board itself.
Not that a sufficient swarm of tacs wouldn't be a horde.
Also perhaps fluffy, a company is 100 marines right?
Yes, but in the post-Heresy era deploying a whole company in one place at one time is really unusual. And deploying a hundred Tactical Marines with bolters and no vehicle support isn't fluffy in any context.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/29 21:41:11
pothocboots wrote: I don't think quasistellar's idea is to drown the enemy in bodies, rather the board itself.
Not that a sufficient swarm of tacs wouldn't be a horde.
Also perhaps fluffy, a company is 100 marines right?
Sure, but then you get into "area of control" territory, and since the Tacs have a longer range than many "horde" units, it would still seem to come into play. Or perhaps they're viable enough to split off and cover a sizeable piece of the now smaller table on their own. They could certainly support each other better than Gants with a 12" range Fleshborer can.
Basic troops dont cost 20 PPM compared to the average 7-9. Generalist aren't specialist anti infantry units like intercessors. Fire warriors are a support unit. Space marine are shock troops. Stop trying to break it down to being more simple than it is while simultaneously getting these units roles. The reason marines have sucked forever is because they have paid too much for stats they cant use. Decent melee with no real way to make melee. Decent toughness that is completely ignored by heavy weapons. That is a huge risk putting points into those stats with very little gains capable because they don't deal a lot of damage. You can't expect units like this "full price" for everything.
And you pop right into a semantic argument. Yes your intercessors and tac marines are YOUR BASIC TROOP CHOICE, just because you want to think of them as sooper speshul doesn't make them not the SM codex basic troops choice.
Now if you want to argue that Intercessors are not a generalist unit but are instead a multi-faceted specialist unit that excels at durability, ranged combat and close combat, yeah we could have that argument, but I'll warn you, it immediately means they are drastically under priced, upwards of 7ppm under priced. So if you want your BASIC troops choice to be better at ranged combat than a troops choice that is only good at ranged combat, point for point, and you want them to also be better at CC than a specialist CC troop choice that doesn't even have guns, point for point, and you want them to be more durable vs basic infantry weapons, than you aren't arguing for balance, you are arguing for being better than everyone else.
And yet again, Marines have not sucked forever. They were without a doubt one of the top 2 or 3 factions in the entire game for 8th and 7th.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
Should Intercessors be better at shooting than Fire Warriors? Should they be better at fighting than Ork Boys or Genestealers? This is point for point, not model to model.
Well they don't do ether of those things. Both those units are just bad vs units with good armor saves. You have to evaluate their shooting vs the same target with different profiles. Plus - a certain value of a unit is just existing. The less total points you spend on a unit means the less points they are putting into points that deal damage. Example. Unit A cost half as much as unit B and shoots half as good. You have 2 units A's each on an objective vs 1 unit B on 1 objective. Tell me...How will unit B ever win? Especially when Unit B has to use melee to get any advantage...and is therefore...losing 2 objectives to 0 or 1 to 0 at best case? Unit B needs to shoot better and melee better than unit A because unit A can only be in 1 place at a time just like all units and you have half as many of them . Intercessors do pretty well against any type of infantry. Chaff infantry out damage intercessors vs other chaff infantry though. Pretty much across the board.
Yes intercessors out shoot fire warriors and out fight genestealers. point for point.
20 firewarriors = 180pts, 9 intercessors = 180pts. 20 firewarriors get 20 shots, 10 hits, 6.66 wounds for 5.55 Dead ork boyz. 9 Intercessors get 18 shots, 12 hits, 6 wounds for 6 Dead Ork boyz. CC 20 Firewarriors 20 attacks, 6.66 hits, 2.22 wounds and 1.85 dead orkz 9 Intercessors get 28 attacks, 18.6 hits, 9.3 wounds and 7.77 dead boyz
Against one another though 20 firewarriors, 20 shots, 10 hits, 6.66 wounds 2 Dmg, 1 dead intercessor (20pts lost) 9 intercessors get 18 shots, 12 hits, 8 wounds for 5.33 dead firewarriors (45pts lost) CC 20 attacks, 6.6 hits, 2.2 wounds and .73ish wounds. no dead marines (0pts lost) 28 attacks, 18.6 hits, 12.4 wounds and 6.2 dead Tau firewarriors (54pts lost)
At half range firewarriors do more damage but at the same time, if firewarriors are 15' from ork boyz, they are dead the next turn, where as those intercessors will move 6' double tap and attempt a charge, and if they get into CC with those ork boyz, they win.
8 genestealers = 120pts 6 intercessors = 120pts. 8 genestealers get 24 attacks, 16 hits, 8 wounds for 8 dead Orkz 6 Intercessors get 19 attacks, 12.33 hits, 6.16 wounds and 5ish dead ork boyz WOOHOO!!! Genestealers win killing orkz. Against one another though
Genestealers get 24 attacks, 16 hits, 8 wounds about 4 wounds, 2 dead intercessors. (40pts lost) Intercessors 19 attacks, 12.33 hits, 6.16 wounds for 4 wounds or 4 dead genestealers (60pts lost)
At Range. Genestealers get 0 shots, 0 hits, 0 wounds for 0 dmg. (0pts lost) Intercessors get 12 shots, 8 hits, 4 wounds and 2.66 dead Genestealers (30-45pts lost)
Oh no, intercessors out kill genestealers in CC, and lets not even get into the fact that those intercessors would have been plinking away from 30' with their rifles
Your other frequent argument is that firewarriors are better vs vehicles.
Infact, i think the only vehicles that are more vulnerable to Firewarriors than intercessors are T8 vehicles and even then its only by 0.33dmg, not to mention that if it just happens to be in tac doctrine turn their dmg actually goes up to the same amount.
Maybe you want to compare guardsmen? 12 guardsmen = 60pts (I openly admit undercosted) 3 intercessors = 60pts
12 guardsmen get 12 shots, 6 hits and 2 wounds vs Orkz for 1.33 dead orkz. 3 Intercessors get 6 shots, 4 hits 2 wounds for 2 dead orkz.
What else do you want to compare intercessors to in order to try and make your argument? I highly recommend you ignore durability, because right now its not even remotely close.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/29 22:13:10
Breton wrote: Because the index was just a filler until codexes could be released?
And does it change the fact that games were played with this filler? I mean, literally every rule in the history of 40k could be considered a "filler" for the next one. We never play with finished book because 40k has never been a finished game. Every time it came close, new edition came.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
Because it it an irrelevant period. It's like caring who wins preseason football games.
LMAO, who cares about that first 18 months of 8th edition where not everyone had a codex, that doesn't count.
It wasn't 18 months. It was like 4-6.
Once imperial guard and eldar came out. Marines were out of the game essentially. What's funny is index orks and index sisters out performed marines after this point lol.
Space Marine Codex #1 Release date: July 2017
Orkz Codex Release Date: November 2018
GSC: February 2019
SoB: November 2019
So when you say it was 4-6 months you are ....lying. SoB took 2 years after release to get their codex. Hell, SM got their 2nd codex before SoB got their codex. Also, 4-6 months would be October 2017 to December 2017 and by that point the only factions with a codex were:
Adeptus Mechanicus
Astra Militarum
Craftworlds
Grey Knights
Tyranids
Blood Angels
Chaos Space Marines
Dark Angels
Death Guard
Space Marines
So Nidz, Eldar, Mechanicus and Imperial Guard plus 6 flavors of Power armor. You had Several major factions like Necrons, Space Wolves, Tau, DE, Orkz without a codex for significantly longer
Also, Codex SM wasn't worse than Index Orkz/Sob no matter how you want to slice it. Your girlyman gunline which you don't count for some reason was winning tournaments all the way up until Codex 2.0 came out.
So you’re saying he was lying about the SM supremacy ending 4-6 months in when the IG and CWE codexes came out by proving.... the IG and CWE codexes were out in those first 4-6 months? Oh wait.
Quasistellar wrote: People keep coming back at me with this "horde" word as if it matters.
I said carpet of bodies.
Which even Ork Boyz can't do.
I mean, sure, Marines can't fit 300 models into a 2K pointer. Ok.
But if the idea is to drown the enemy in bodies, having half as many, but tougher bodies might still work. 100 Tactical Marines seems possible. The real question is if it actually outperforms 400 Gants. . . which, honestly, it might.
100 tactical marines isn’t possible. You’d need three HQs, 3 elites, 3 FA, and 3 HS or some such. Even 100 first born assorted marines probably isn’t very possible. Definitely not with even minimal options like heavy bolters etc. 100 first born with no upgrades is going to run you roughly 1800 points, and a cap/LT will eat up the last 200.
400 gaunts will run you what 1600? Leaving a couple hundred for HQs and a couple hundred for some sort of specialist(s)? And no, 400 gaunts require 400 shots. 100 first born require 100 shots.
Those 37 Custodes (max 2K according to someone else I’m taking their word for it right now) get at most (usually) two shots per battle round. 37*2*5 = 370 shots the whole game if everything goes their way. 30 gaunts, plus hqs plus those specials will never be shot at.you can’t even roll lucky enough to take them out because you can’t even roll that many dice.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/10/29 22:59:09
Merge the wounds and armor save into 2W and a 3+ and what have you got? Pretty close to a Primaris marine for 5 points less?
It costs more, but not enough more.
Point for point, Intercessors outfight Boys and outshoot Fire Warriors. Not against every single target in the game-but against most targets.
And what on earth do you mean by combining their profiles like that? By that logic, I have a 500 point Knight Gallant. It's combined with 20 Guardsmen, giving it an extra 20 wounds at 5 points each.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Breton wrote: And no, 400 gaunts require 400 shots. 100 first born require 100 shots.
If all the shots are AP-4 and D2 or better, sure.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/29 23:01:37
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Merge the wounds and armor save into 2W and a 3+ and what have you got? Pretty close to a Primaris marine for 5 points less?
I'm kind of confused as to what you are saying here. Are you saying that if you taped a Fire Warrior and an Ork Boy together, gave it an extra wound, better saves, and a better balistic skill, while maintaining the best aspects of the melee/ranged weapons they have access to by default, that they would be the equivalent of a Primaris Intercessor for 5 points cheaper?
I mean yes, that is true, but that involves literally mashing two separate units with different focuses together, taking their best abilities, and even then fudging their stats to match them.
Merge the wounds and armor save into 2W and a 3+ and what have you got? Pretty close to a Primaris marine for 5 points less?
It costs more, but not enough more.
Point for point, Intercessors outfight Boys and outshoot Fire Warriors. Not against every single target in the game-but against most targets.
And what on earth do you mean by combining their profiles like that? By that logic, I have a 500 point Knight Gallant. It's combined with 20 Guardsmen, giving it an extra 20 wounds at 5 points each.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Breton wrote: And no, 400 gaunts require 400 shots. 100 first born require 100 shots.
If all the shots are AP-4 and D2 or better, sure.
You didn’t understand that a Primaris Intercessor has roughly the best stat from both those models, and both their wounds for (very roughly) their combined point for point cost? And no, no matter how times you make the claim, one Primaris Intercessor does not outshoot 3 fire warriors, or out fight 2 and a half boys. Just saying “point for point” doesn’t make your NOT point for point comparison accurate.
Especially if you didn’t understand that point for point an Intercessor is an Ork Boy AND a Tau Fire Warrior. And still costs more, point for point, to boot.
I mean yes, that is true, but that involves literally mashing two separate units with different focuses together, taking their best abilities, and even then fudging their stats to match them.
It figuratively involves mashing two units with a specific focus to compare them and their discount price for that one phase focus to another unit that has a two phase focus.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/29 23:12:23
Merge the wounds and armor save into 2W and a 3+ and what have you got? Pretty close to a Primaris marine for 5 points less?
Just posted the point for point comparisons....low and behold, Intercessors are better point for point. Beautiful comparison though. "Look if i merge these units together, they are almost as good as a Primaris Marine!" Honestly, what is the point of that?
Because it it an irrelevant period. It's like caring who wins preseason football games.
LMAO, who cares about that first 18 months of 8th edition where not everyone had a codex, that doesn't count.
It wasn't 18 months. It was like 4-6.
Once imperial guard and eldar came out. Marines were out of the game essentially. What's funny is index orks and index sisters out performed marines after this point lol.
Space Marine Codex #1 Release date: July 2017
Orkz Codex Release Date: November 2018
GSC: February 2019
SoB: November 2019
So when you say it was 4-6 months you are ....lying. SoB took 2 years after release to get their codex. Hell, SM got their 2nd codex before SoB got their codex. Also, 4-6 months would be October 2017 to December 2017 and by that point the only factions with a codex were:
Adeptus Mechanicus
Astra Militarum
Craftworlds
Grey Knights
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Chaos Space Marines
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Space Marines
So Nidz, Eldar, Mechanicus and Imperial Guard plus 6 flavors of Power armor. You had Several major factions like Necrons, Space Wolves, Tau, DE, Orkz without a codex for significantly longer
Also, Codex SM wasn't worse than Index Orkz/Sob no matter how you want to slice it. Your girlyman gunline which you don't count for some reason was winning tournaments all the way up until Codex 2.0 came out.
So you’re saying he was lying about the SM supremacy ending 4-6 months in when the IG and CWE codexes came out by proving.... the IG and CWE codexes were out in those first 4-6 months? Oh wait.
If only there was a way to look up past tournaments from 2018 and see how Space Marines of all flavors did? Ohh wait there is, Adepticon 2018, #1 Blood Angels, #7, 13, 15 Dark Angels, #19, 21, 25 Space Marines So Marines of 3 separate flavors finished in 7 of the top 25 places in a 250+ player tournament. (9 if you include custodes).
In fact, per BoK, in 2018, Smurfs and regular marines had 29 Top 3 finishes in GTs and Majors in 2018. Which put them at 6th overall and in tight contention with 4th place. The only stand out armies were Space Elves and Imperial Guard go figure, and that had less to do with IG rather than using them as CP batteries for the broken knights. Ohh, and those Orkz that Xenos said did better with index than Marines did with a codex? Yeah they had 13 total placings, and that includes them being played by 2 of the best players in the entire game (Nick Nanavati and Steven Pampreen)
SemperMortis wrote: If only there was a way to look up past tournaments from 2018 and see how Space Marines of all flavors did? Ohh wait there is, Adepticon 2018, #1 Blood Angels, #7, 13, 15 Dark Angels, #19, 21, 25 Space Marines So Marines of 3 separate flavors finished in 7 of the top 25 places in a 250+ player tournament. (9 if you include custodes).
In fact, per BoK, in 2018, Smurfs and regular marines had 29 Top 3 finishes in GTs and Majors in 2018. Which put them at 6th overall and in tight contention with 4th place. The only stand out armies were Space Elves and Imperial Guard go figure, and that had less to do with IG rather than using them as CP batteries for the broken knights. Ohh, and those Orkz that Xenos said did better with index than Marines did with a codex? Yeah they had 13 total placings, and that includes them being played by 2 of the best players in the entire game (Nick Nanavati and Steven Pampreen)
That’s why you spent so much time misrepresenting his claim and how long it took to roll out all the codexes when his point was specifically about those two and the first 4-6 months? If you can’t be honest about what he said, I’m not going to hold my breath about the rest of your claims. Figures don’t lie, but liars can figure. And there’s a stat for everything.
An Intercessor is worth 2.2 repeating Fire Warriors, or 2.5 Boys. But yeah, three Fire Warriors would probably outshoot a single Intercessor against a decent range of targets. They also cost 35% more, and have absolute CRAP for melee. So they should.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
You didn’t understand that a Primaris Intercessor has roughly the best stat from both those models, and both their wounds for (very roughly) their combined point for point cost? And no, no matter how times you make the claim, one Primaris Intercessor does not outshoot 3 fire warriors, or out fight 2 and a half boys. Just saying “point for point” doesn’t make your NOT point for point comparison accurate.
3 Firewarriors is 27pts, so yeah, 1 intercessor at 20pts does not outperform 3 firewarriors, what he does do though is outperform them on an equivalent footing. The math I did was 180pts of Firewarriors (20 of them) vs 9 Intercessors, because that is a good comparison and equal points. And yes, intercessors absolutely out shoot those firewarriors, the only thing Firewarriors excel at (slightly) is T8. In CC I compared them against genestealers but if you wanted to do Boyz than a comparison would be 10 Orkz vs 4 intercessors. I am assuming you want to give the boyz choppas.
30 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds 3.33 dmg, Marines lose equivalent to 33pts
intercessors get 12 attacks, 8 hits, 4 wounds for 3.33 dmg. orkz lose equivalent to 26.66pts.
Marines lost 25% unit damage capacity, orkz lost 30%.
Next round Orkz only get 21 attacks, 14 hits, 7 wounds for 1 more dead Marine.
Marines get 6 attacks 4 hits, 2 wounds for 2 more dead Orkz.
Marines are at 50% fighting strength, orkz are as well. Dmg potential, Orkz are just barely edging out the marines, so long as we don't include the pistols both sides are carrying which will skew the data in favor of the marines.
So yes, Intercessors, point for point perform as well as Ork choppa boyz and are vastly superior to Ork Shoota boyz. And at range they are significantly better. Those 4 Intercessors at range kill 2-3 boyz a turn while the ork boyz can't even return fire until they are within charge range.
JNAProductions wrote: An Intercessor is worth 2.2 repeating Fire Warriors, or 2.5 Boys. But yeah, three Fire Warriors would probably outshoot a single Intercessor against a decent range of targets. They also cost 35% more, and have absolute CRAP for melee. So they should.
Tell me more. I’m curious to know how 1 intercessor with 2 WS3+ S4 -0 attacks + 1 some of the time is out fighting 2.5 x 2 WS3 S4 -0 + 1 all the Time attacks.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SemperMortis wrote: 3 Firewarriors is 27pts, so yeah, 1 intercessor at 20pts does not outperform 3 firewarriors,
Yeah, I was doing pre-CA, my bad. Hadn’t seen your math and thought they were one of the few that didn’t get changed.
what he does do though is outperform them on an equivalent footing. The math I did was 180pts of Firewarriors (20 of them) vs 9 Intercessors, because that is a good comparison and equal points. And yes, intercessors absolutely out shoot those firewarriors, the only thing Firewarriors excel at (slightly) is T8. In CC I compared them against genestealers but if you wanted to do Boyz than a comparison would be 10 Orkz vs 4 intercessors. I am assuming you want to give the boyz choppas.
30 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds 3.33 dmg, Marines lose equivalent to 33pts
intercessors get 12 attacks, 8 hits, 4 wounds for 3.33 dmg. orkz lose equivalent to 26.66pts.
Marines lost 25% unit damage capacity, orkz lost 30%.
Next round Orkz only get 21 attacks, 14 hits, 7 wounds for 1 more dead Marine.
Marines get 6 attacks 4 hits, 2 wounds for 2 more dead Orkz.
Marines are at 50% fighting strength, orkz are as well. Dmg potential, Orkz are just barely edging out the marines, so long as we don't include the pistols both sides are carrying which will skew the data in favor of the marines.
So yes, Intercessors, point for point perform as well as Ork choppa boyz and are vastly superior to Ork Shoota boyz. And at range they are significantly better. Those 4 Intercessors at range kill 2-3 boyz a turn while the ork boyz can't even return fire until they are within charge range.
I think we just moved some goalposts. Why did we do Tau and Marines shooting at Orks, but Marines and Orks are... fighting each other? Why aren’t they fighting the same target? Oh wait. I see why.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/29 23:38:13
That’s why you spent so much time misrepresenting his claim and how long it took to roll out all the codexes when his point was specifically about those two and the first 4-6 months? If you can’t be honest about what he said, I’m not going to hold my breath about the rest of your claims. Figures don’t lie, but liars can figure. And there’s a stat for everything.
Its like you enjoy lying and misrepresenting what I have said in order to try and win an argument you know you've already lost.
Original comment from me
LMAO, who cares about that first 18 months of 8th edition where not everyone had a codex, that doesn't count.
His response
It wasn't 18 months. It was like 4-6.
Once imperial guard and eldar came out. Marines were out of the game essentially. What's funny is index orks and index sisters out performed marines after this point lol.
I just proved that 1: Index orkz and SoB were not as good as codex Space Marines by showing top finishes in GT's and majors. (SoB only had 8) I proved that once IG and Eldar came out that Marines still were winning and more importantly, the part you seem to gloss over. I was showing that it took about 18 months before every major faction got a codex. So saying Index hammer doesn't count is basically cutting the edition in half.
I think we just moved some goalposts. Why did we do Tau and Marines shooting at Orks, but Marines and Orks are... fighting each other? Why aren’t they fighting the same target? Oh wait. I see why.
Then scroll up and see me break down Tau firewarriors and genestealers and Marine intercessors all beating on Orkz and or each other in detail, both ranged and in CC. I ran the numbers, intercessors are vastly superior.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/29 23:39:31
Its like you enjoy lying and misrepresenting what I have said in order to try and win an argument you know you've already lost.
I know you are but what am I? Accusing me of lying and misrepresenting right after I just quote tweeted you doing it isn’t the best move you could make. He said it (the dominance) ended in 4-6 months when two specific codexes came out. You then lied about what he said to try and make a different point you could “win” at about how long it took for SOB to come out.
Its like you enjoy lying and misrepresenting what I have said in order to try and win an argument you know you've already lost.
I know you are but what am I? Accusing me of lying and misrepresenting right after I just quote tweeted you doing it isn’t the best move you could make. He said it (the dominance) ended in 4-6 months when two specific codexes came out. You then lied about what he said to try and make a different point you could “win” at about how long it took for SOB to come out.
4 to 6 months ends in december of 2017. I showed tournament results from 2018. SM finished 6th overall and were in close contention with 5th and 4th place. Clearly they were still performing fine after that 6 month window he randomly chose. So again, you and he are both wrong. Ohh and here it is incase you want to be lazy.
Yes intercessors out shoot fire warriors and out fight genestealers. point for point.
20 firewarriors = 180pts, 9 intercessors = 180pts.
20 firewarriors get 20 shots, 10 hits, 6.66 wounds for 5.55 Dead ork boyz.
9 Intercessors get 18 shots, 12 hits, 6 wounds for 6 Dead Ork boyz.
CC 20 Firewarriors 20 attacks, 6.66 hits, 2.22 wounds and 1.85 dead orkz
9 Intercessors get 28 attacks, 18.6 hits, 9.3 wounds and 7.77 dead boyz
Against one another though
20 firewarriors, 20 shots, 10 hits, 6.66 wounds 2 Dmg, 1 dead intercessor (20pts lost)
9 intercessors get 18 shots, 12 hits, 8 wounds for 5.33 dead firewarriors (45pts lost)
CC 20 attacks, 6.6 hits, 2.2 wounds and .73ish wounds. no dead marines (0pts lost)
28 attacks, 18.6 hits, 12.4 wounds and 6.2 dead Tau firewarriors (54pts lost)
At half range firewarriors do more damage but at the same time, if firewarriors are 15' from ork boyz, they are dead the next turn, where as those intercessors will move 6' double tap and attempt a charge, and if they get into CC with those ork boyz, they win.
8 genestealers = 120pts 6 intercessors = 120pts.
8 genestealers get 24 attacks, 16 hits, 8 wounds for 8 dead Orkz
6 Intercessors get 19 attacks, 12.33 hits, 6.16 wounds and 5ish dead ork boyz WOOHOO!!! Genestealers win killing orkz.
Against one another though
Genestealers get 24 attacks, 16 hits, 8 wounds about 4 wounds, 2 dead intercessors. (40pts lost)
Intercessors 19 attacks, 12.33 hits, 6.16 wounds for 4 wounds or 4 dead genestealers (60pts lost)
At Range.
Genestealers get 0 shots, 0 hits, 0 wounds for 0 dmg. (0pts lost)
Intercessors get 12 shots, 8 hits, 4 wounds and 2.66 dead Genestealers (30-45pts lost)
Oh no, intercessors out kill genestealers in CC, and lets not even get into the fact that those intercessors would have been plinking away from 30' with their rifles
Your other frequent argument is that firewarriors are better vs vehicles.
Infact, i think the only vehicles that are more vulnerable to Firewarriors than intercessors are T8 vehicles and even then its only by 0.33dmg, not to mention that if it just happens to be in tac doctrine turn their dmg actually goes up to the same amount.
Maybe you want to compare guardsmen?
12 guardsmen = 60pts (I openly admit undercosted)
3 intercessors = 60pts
12 guardsmen get 12 shots, 6 hits and 2 wounds vs Orkz for 1.33 dead orkz.
3 Intercessors get 6 shots, 4 hits 2 wounds for 2 dead orkz.
What else do you want to compare intercessors to in order to try and make your argument? I highly recommend you ignore durability, because right now its not even remotely close.
Then scroll up and see me break down Tau firewarriors and genestealers and Marine intercessors all beating on Orkz and or each other in detail, both ranged and in CC. I ran the numbers, intercessors are vastly superior.
I’m dying to hear about how one 20 point model with 2 attacks plus 1 some of the time out fights 2 and a half 2+1 all the time attacks. But just like your strawman aimed at that other guy I’m not holding my breath for anything honest
Testy and irrational stuff in defense of Marines winds up self-fulfilling the prophecies by making it very difficult to keep the fury correctly laser-focused on GW, and winds up with people really, really wanting to attack Marine players. Some of them do, and then the Marine players say "You just hate marines!" And the cycle devolves.
"All you 40k people out there have managed to more or less do something that I did some time ago, and some of my friends did before me, and some of their friends did before them: When you saw the water getting gakky, you decided to, well, get out of the pool, rather than say 'I guess this is water now.'"
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