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 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Complete intellectual dishonesty. Complete and utter. The SAG with proper strat useage and command rerolls had a 20% chance of doing 20 damage or more to a knight - and it was like 80 points. A nice guy laid out an excellent grid about 1.5 years ago to demonstrate on dakka. Plus yes - IG infantry have a lot of damage potential. It is part of the reason that 5 point IG infantry were way to low compare to a space marine. Yet - even then the same space marine haters refused to acknowledge how weak marines were.

yeah, can we get a source on that claim?

so 5 point guardsmen were balanced?

not on the 5pts guardsmen, on the "20% chance to do 20 damage to a knight". What were the stratagems that were used to achieve that? And more importantly, What was the average damage it did.

The average damage I can recall was 10. With a 20% chance to do over 20 damage. don't quote me on it for the average. You could probably look up the thread if you tried certain keywords.

Stratagem more dakka. Conditional command reroll to get str 10 where possible. I believe it freebootas but it could have been deathskulls I do not remmber.

 Xenomancers wrote:

I've never seen a none mechanicus knight. There is no need to ever take one. For this exact reason.

It's also completely false. Every army can reroll in some capacity. The only army really struggling in this area is tyranids as far as I can recall.

Yes let's base all arguments on a single subfaction locked strategum.

So can we now go balance Eradicators on the assumption that they are all salamanders with +1 to wound etc etc too?

Also you obviously haven't been playing knights post Engine War then as that made the decision less one sided. Not to mention taking a subfaction for a strategum you get to uses when someone fails to one round a knight. Get real marines have taken over 48 wounds of of knights in a single turn on multiple games.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Complete intellectual dishonesty. Complete and utter. The SAG with proper strat useage and command rerolls had a 20% chance of doing 20 damage or more to a knight - and it was like 80 points. A nice guy laid out an excellent grid about 1.5 years ago to demonstrate on dakka. Plus yes - IG infantry have a lot of damage potential. It is part of the reason that 5 point IG infantry were way to low compare to a space marine. Yet - even then the same space marine haters refused to acknowledge how weak marines were.

yeah, can we get a source on that claim?

so 5 point guardsmen were balanced?

not on the 5pts guardsmen, on the "20% chance to do 20 damage to a knight". What were the stratagems that were used to achieve that? And more importantly, What was the average damage it did.


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 Xenomancers wrote:

I've never seen a none mechanicus knight. There is no need to ever take one. For this exact reason.

It's also completely false. Every army can reroll in some capacity. The only army really struggling in this area is tyranids as far as I can recall.

What are chaos knights?

And no, only marines and belisarius cawl get to reroll ALL hits and wounds of 1.
And cawl is locked to a single subfaction.

reroll 1's to wound is more rare but lots of armies can do it. DE can. Tau Can. Choas Can. Eldar can reroll all wounds. Man factions can get +1 to woudns which is often as good as a reroll.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Then the words will be "wait for your 2nd codex"

I don't think he knows about second codex pippin...

(Said every xenos player)

 Xenomancers wrote:

reroll 1's to wound is more rare but lots of armies can do it. DE can. Tau Can. Choas Can. Eldar can reroll all wounds. Man factions can get +1 to woudns which is often as good as a reroll.

Ok so eldar and marines are the only ones that (at least) reroll All hits AND wound rolls of 1 without needing a specific subfaction (rerolling 1's for poison weapons as flayed skull is mostly flavor text).
Both were problematic at some point.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

reroll 1's to wound is more rare but lots of armies can do it. DE can. Tau Can. Choas Can. Eldar can reroll all wounds. Man factions can get +1 to woudns which is often as good as a reroll.

Ok so eldar and marines are the only ones that (at least) reroll All hits AND wound rolls of 1 without needing a specific subfaction (rerolling 1's for poison weapons as flayed skull is mostly flavor text).
Both were problematic at some point.

Custodians too. Essentially reroll all hits. To be honest...without rerolls nothing dies. So - i think its a good thing. Access to these boost need to be universal though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

I've never seen a none mechanicus knight. There is no need to ever take one. For this exact reason.

It's also completely false. Every army can reroll in some capacity. The only army really struggling in this area is tyranids as far as I can recall.

Yes let's base all arguments on a single subfaction locked strategum.

So can we now go balance Eradicators on the assumption that they are all salamanders with +1 to wound etc etc too?

Also you obviously haven't been playing knights post Engine War then as that made the decision less one sided. Not to mention taking a subfaction for a strategum you get to uses when someone fails to one round a knight. Get real marines have taken over 48 wounds of of knights in a single turn on multiple games.

What is your argument. I shouldn't assume that an IK is not...chosen from 1 of the half of houses that have access to the best knight stratagem - which also includes the 3 best houses...tyranis/ and raven? okay...

 Xenomancers wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

reroll 1's to wound is more rare but lots of armies can do it. DE can. Tau Can. Choas Can. Eldar can reroll all wounds. Man factions can get +1 to woudns which is often as good as a reroll.

Ok so eldar and marines are the only ones that (at least) reroll All hits AND wound rolls of 1 without needing a specific subfaction (rerolling 1's for poison weapons as flayed skull is mostly flavor text).
Both were problematic at some point.

Custodians too. Essentially reroll all hits. To be honest...without rerolls nothing dies. So - i think its a good thing. Access to these boost need to be universal though.

I strongly disagree but i know you have more of a "kill everything" approach to the game than i do.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

reroll 1's to wound is more rare but lots of armies can do it. DE can. Tau Can. Choas Can. Eldar can reroll all wounds. Man factions can get +1 to woudns which is often as good as a reroll.

Ok so eldar and marines are the only ones that (at least) reroll All hits AND wound rolls of 1 without needing a specific subfaction (rerolling 1's for poison weapons as flayed skull is mostly flavor text).
Both were problematic at some point.

Custodians too. Essentially reroll all hits. To be honest...without rerolls nothing dies. So - i think its a good thing. Access to these boost need to be universal though.

I strongly disagree but i know you have more of a "kill everything" approach to the game than i do.

It's cause my whole group is power gamers.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

reroll 1's to wound is more rare but lots of armies can do it. DE can. Tau Can. Choas Can. Eldar can reroll all wounds. Man factions can get +1 to woudns which is often as good as a reroll.

Ok so eldar and marines are the only ones that (at least) reroll All hits AND wound rolls of 1 without needing a specific subfaction (rerolling 1's for poison weapons as flayed skull is mostly flavor text).
Both were problematic at some point.

Custodians too. Essentially reroll all hits. To be honest...without rerolls nothing dies. So - i think its a good thing. Access to these boost need to be universal though.

I strongly disagree but i know you have more of a "kill everything" approach to the game than i do.

It's cause my whole group is power gamers.

I play with some powergames and i've won many games with lists that aren't focused on killing. I do find it less enjoyable than playing a game with no rerolls where dice actually matter.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Ok so eldar and marines are the only ones that (at least) reroll All hits AND wound rolls of 1 without needing a specific subfaction

Somewhat disingenuous, as it required an expensive HQ, uses up both psychic power slots on that HQ, and relies on getting both powers off, AND requires the enemy failing their denies. And it can only effect a single unit.

It's not a bad ability, but Marine players were always saying their ubiquitous rerolls were fine cos "look Eldar can do it to" but trying to compare the abilities is frankly stupid.

With the chapter master change, things have closed up a little, but the marine rerolls is still leagues ahead of what Eldar can manage. Hopefully this will change with their update, but it's anyones guess really.

 Xenomancers wrote:

What is your argument. I shouldn't assume that an IK is not...chosen from 1 of the half of houses that have access to the best knight stratagem - which also includes the 3 best houses...tyranis/ and raven? okay...

You complain when people use Chapter specific buffs on marine units because thats not fair as not everymarine is X chapter.

Yet your saying All Knights are Mechnicus and they contain the 3 best houses, yet those of us discussing trying to make them work in 9th are using custom households.
So maybe your knowledge of a faction your not trying to make work is out of date.

Also didnt you say you haven't played a single game of 9th?

Niiru wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Ok so eldar and marines are the only ones that (at least) reroll All hits AND wound rolls of 1 without needing a specific subfaction

Somewhat disingenuous, as it required an expensive HQ, uses up both psychic power slots on that HQ, and relies on getting both powers off, AND requires the enemy failing their denies. And it can only effect a single unit.

It's not a bad ability, but Marine players were always saying their ubiquitous rerolls were fine cos "look Eldar can do it to" but trying to compare the abilities is frankly stupid.

With the chapter master change, things have closed up a little, but the marine rerolls is still leagues ahead of what Eldar can manage. Hopefully this will change with their update, but it's anyones guess really.

I'm aware of all that, but i didnt want to start an argument that Doom/Guide isnt super strong because it is.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Ok so eldar and marines are the only ones that (at least) reroll All hits AND wound rolls of 1 without needing a specific subfaction

Somewhat disingenuous, as it required an expensive HQ, uses up both psychic power slots on that HQ, and relies on getting both powers off, AND requires the enemy failing their denies. And it can only effect a single unit.

It's not a bad ability, but Marine players were always saying their ubiquitous rerolls were fine cos "look Eldar can do it to" but trying to compare the abilities is frankly stupid.

With the chapter master change, things have closed up a little, but the marine rerolls is still leagues ahead of what Eldar can manage. Hopefully this will change with their update, but it's anyones guess really.

I'm aware of all that, but i didnt want to start an argument that Doom/Guide isnt super strong because it is.

It's a good psychic ability, but the number of times I see "oh that unit isn't overpriced at all, it gets full rerolls to hit and to wound it's amazing" and i'm like... that's not how this works. Marine players seem to think that Eldar auto-pass all psychic tests, and get farseers for free.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Ok so eldar and marines are the only ones that (at least) reroll All hits AND wound rolls of 1 without needing a specific subfaction

Somewhat disingenuous, as it required an expensive HQ, uses up both psychic power slots on that HQ, and relies on getting both powers off, AND requires the enemy failing their denies. And it can only effect a single unit.

It's not a bad ability, but Marine players were always saying their ubiquitous rerolls were fine cos "look Eldar can do it to" but trying to compare the abilities is frankly stupid.

With the chapter master change, things have closed up a little, but the marine rerolls is still leagues ahead of what Eldar can manage. Hopefully this will change with their update, but it's anyones guess really.

I'm aware of all that, but i didnt want to start an argument that Doom/Guide isnt super strong because it is.

Just ignore. Doom guide or doom guide jinx is the best damage ramp in the history of 40k. I've never played eldar in a tournament just because I'd rather play other things but my competitive eldar list is pretty much rerolling everything with most units.
Expert crafters + ignore cover or always counts in cover trait or -1 AP to shurikens at half range depending on the army..
basically MOA for marines. A reroll to hit and wound per unit. Huge for units like Vibro cannons/ D cannons/ pulse lasers.
You pretty much just bring 3 detachments of heavy supports no troops and just steam roll people.

It rerolls like an mofo.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Complete intellectual dishonesty. Complete and utter. The SAG with proper strat useage and command rerolls had a 20% chance of doing 20 damage or more to a knight - and it was like 80 points. A nice guy laid out an excellent grid about 1.5 years ago to demonstrate on dakka. Plus yes - IG infantry have a lot of damage potential. It is part of the reason that 5 point IG infantry were way to low compare to a space marine. Yet - even then the same space marine haters refused to acknowledge how weak marines were.

A SSAG also had a 50% chance of doing 0 damage when fired, and I'm fairly sure that a 20% chance to do 20 damage to a 4++/5++ model are just flat out made up.

Niiru wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Ok so eldar and marines are the only ones that (at least) reroll All hits AND wound rolls of 1 without needing a specific subfaction

Somewhat disingenuous, as it required an expensive HQ, uses up both psychic power slots on that HQ, and relies on getting both powers off, AND requires the enemy failing their denies. And it can only effect a single unit.

It's not a bad ability, but Marine players were always saying their ubiquitous rerolls were fine cos "look Eldar can do it to" but trying to compare the abilities is frankly stupid.

With the chapter master change, things have closed up a little, but the marine rerolls is still leagues ahead of what Eldar can manage. Hopefully this will change with their update, but it's anyones guess really.

I'm aware of all that, but i didnt want to start an argument that Doom/Guide isnt super strong because it is.

It's a good psychic ability, but the number of times I see "oh that unit isn't overpriced at all, it gets full rerolls to hit and to wound it's amazing" and i'm like... that's not how this works. Marine players seem to think that Eldar auto-pass all psychic tests, and get farseers for free.

Every army takes HQs to unlock their abilities. What you gonna do - not bring hqs? Not all HQ's pretty much ensure 1 unit dies per turn regardless of how tough it is. Doom is likely the best power in the game. it has a lot of contenders...mostly eldar powers - quicken is brutal. As is jinx/protect.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Complete intellectual dishonesty. Complete and utter. The SAG with proper strat useage and command rerolls had a 20% chance of doing 20 damage or more to a knight - and it was like 80 points. A nice guy laid out an excellent grid about 1.5 years ago to demonstrate on dakka. Plus yes - IG infantry have a lot of damage potential. It is part of the reason that 5 point IG infantry were way to low compare to a space marine. Yet - even then the same space marine haters refused to acknowledge how weak marines were.

A SSAG also had a 50% chance of doing 0 damage when fired, and I'm fairly sure that a 20% chance to do 20 damage to a 4++/5++ model are just flat out made up.

If it didn't have an invune it would just die twice as fast...SAG is AP-5...Then again - a lot of the damage is from mortal wounds. It is not made up.

Xeno, you are a clown. The chance to roll a strength of 11+ to deal mortal wounds in the first place is already as low as 8.33%, before rolling a single hit or wound roll

 Xenomancers wrote:
Nah but they really just hate marines. They can't acknowledge the fact marines have been bad for most the history of the game. They overstate periods when marines were actually good. So if they can't be honest about these periods - there is no way to have a real discussion about how bad the situation is now. Generally - the level marines are at right now is not even close to unprecedented.

.
The first part is actually true for me, not sure about others. Everything else? not so much.

 Jidmah wrote:
Xeno, you are a clown. The chance to roll a strength of 11+ to deal mortal wounds in the first place is already as low as 8.33%, before rolling a single hit or wound roll

Be is that including every possible way of rerolling the dice in any possible combination, as everyone has infinity CP and nothing better to use their rerolls on its all about the buff stack and Strategum Stack, ignore the fact its 50% of your CP for the game and includes 3 1 time reroll relics/warlord traits.

 Jidmah wrote:
Xeno, you are a clown. The chance to roll a strength of 11+ to deal mortal wounds in the first place is already as low as 8.33%, before rolling a single hit or wound roll

11 Strength activates the mortals. even str 5 can do significant damage if you roll a lot of shots. it is a D6 damage weapon also.

Get like 9 hits with 12 shots with the combo and you get 3 wounds on a knight (averge) Roll good you could get 6 or 7. A pred with 4 las...which costs twice as much Can't possibly wound more than 4 times.

It's whatever. You can't acknowledge how good the weapon is makes no difference to me. Marines have nothing like it. It's an example of something marines can't do.


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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Nah but they really just hate marines. They can't acknowledge the fact marines have been bad for most the history of the game. They overstate periods when marines were actually good. So if they can't be honest about these periods - there is no way to have a real discussion about how bad the situation is now. Generally - the level marines are at right now is not even close to unprecedented.

.
The first part is actually true for me, not sure about others. Everything else? not so much.

At least you're honest. I respect that. You are delusional about history but that's just hate clouding your judgement. Happens to the best of us until we let go of the hate.

11+ is an 8.33% chance.
12 is less than 3%.

And how are you getting 12 shots reliably?
And then a 75% hit rate?

 CEO Kasen wrote:

Look, I hate what GW has done with Marines - and not done with other armies - with a passion that makes rabid wolverines look sedate, and I wouldn't even say that. For a variety of reasons.

1) Certainly some do feel like they should just be better, but vast majority feels like a stretch.
2) "Entitlement" meant something at some point, but these days, I don't know. I find the word leaves a bad taste in my mouth, one used to provoke arguments rather than solve them.
3) If I do say that, we're never actually going to find any common ground whatsoever with the numerous Marine mains who aren't dickbags.

Nah, look at how things went with the Kellermorph. Other factions having fun, interesting options that work on the tabletop *makes Astartes players less happy.* They see it as a zero-sum game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breton wrote:
No, the rules are bad. Marines haven't changed much. Few datasheets have. Demanding datasheets be nerfed for this year's ruleset is silly. You don't change the constant, you change the variable.

The marine stats and the overall ruleset are inextricable. They're made by the same people.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Potential is more important than average to me.

What kind of stupidity is this?

Take a stats course.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Xeno, you are a clown. The chance to roll a strength of 11+ to deal mortal wounds in the first place is already as low as 8.33%, before rolling a single hit or wound roll

11 Strength activates the mortals. even str 5 can do significant damage if you roll a lot of shots. it is a D6 damage weapon also.

Get like 9 hits with 12 shots with the combo and you get 3 wounds on a knight (averge) Roll good you could get 6 or 7. A pred with 4 las...which costs twice as much Can't possibly wound more than 4 times.

It's whatever. You can't acknowledge how good the weapon is makes no difference to me. Marines have nothing like it. It's an example of something marines can't do.

A never said anything about whether the SSAG was good or not.
I merely called you out on putting forth numbers so clearly wrong and lying about their origins.

Oh, and that "averge" you claimed above is clearly not an average, but just more making up numbers and clearly wrong as well.

So, once again, everything you write about orks is as wrong as it can be. Don't you ever get tired of making yourself look like a dunce?

Well this is coming from the man who thought squigbuggies of all things were OP so you know...
But he is right, nothing in the Marine arsenal could ever do so much damage for so little points. Luckily for them, their overall damage is way higher than that of most armies anyway so they don´t need it.

 Castozor wrote:
But he is right, nothing in the Marine arsenal could ever do so much damage for so little points.

According to his logic eradicators can do 48 damage and should therefore cost twice as much as a quad-las perdator.

Or, to put it in xeno's words, I'm 60% sure the eradicators can do 234.56% more damage than a SAG for 120% of the points.

Holy gak last time I checked this thread was on page 7 where half the posts were wasted to debunking his nonsense. 4 pages later and its STILL happening. How much discussion does one person have to ruin before people realize to ignore him and move on?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Nah but they really just hate marines. They can't acknowledge the fact marines have been bad for most the history of the game. They overstate periods when marines were actually good. So if they can't be honest about these periods - there is no way to have a real discussion about how bad the situation is now. Generally - the level marines are at right now is not even close to unprecedented.

.
The first part is actually true for me, not sure about others. Everything else? not so much.

I actually quite like Marines, and if a discount box (because lets be honest, we'll be lucky if it is 60USD or less for a box of 5) ever comes with Heavy Intercessors, I feel I would be sorely tempted to go in on a small force of them. Then again I enjoy units with strong defense (while unfortunately not really enjoying the Nurgle aesthetic).

Also man, I remember in 7th hearing Tactical Marines and their baseline infantry units sucked. Then I looked at my guard, who at the time, were weaker in almost every way and didn't even get a save vs the basic weapon the Marines carried. I know I am a filthy casual, but it felt like even back then, the argument was that oh yes, they can hurt wipe the floor with the mainline infantry of other factions without breaking a sweat, but since they couldn't on their own hold out against Eldar Jetbikes or a Riptide list, they were trash.

So on the actual topic of the thread, what is a general playstyle Marines currently cannot do? From what I gather in the thread, Hording up seems to be the main one - they can throw out a respectable number of bodies, but not on par with a true horde, and at the cost to other aspects of their army like access to tanks and more specialized units. Which, to be fair, seems reasonable - if you are leaning into strong and flexible infantry and throwing down as many as you possibly can, you really should lose out on a few other points.

The problem people are having is that most other ways of playing Marines don't come with those costs, or at least not as heavily - leaning into a gunline, and they will still have acceptable melee to bully an opposing gunline, or a melee build will still have their ranged weapons to fall back on in a pinch/to soften up their foes. Most other armies, if they want to lean out of their niche, do so at a cost. The talk of Bullgryn earlier is a good example - the unit itself is great, and it gives the Imperial Guard a niche it didn't have before with a strong, defensive melee unit. However, to do so you are sacrificing almost 30 bodies and the firepower they bring, as well as several of the synergies the army is built around (Regimental Doctrines, Orders).

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Holy gak last time I checked this thread was on page 7 where half the posts were wasted to debunking his nonsense. 4 pages later and its STILL happening. How much discussion does one person have to ruin before people realize to ignore him and move on?

sadly when one or two person comandeer most threads, ignoring them would result in there being no conversation.

Wyldhunt wrote:

* Primaris vehicles are better at doing the fast mechanized force thing than drukhari, eldar, and tau.

*

Are you talking about Impulsors?
They got nerfed hard. They no longer fly (unlike Drukhari, Eldar and Tau transports) and their invulnerable went to 5++, all while not going down in points.
Don't get me started on the trainwreck of the new Gladiators or the glorified paperweights Repulsors are right now.

Hecaton wrote:
Nah, look at how things went with the Kellermorph. Other factions having fun, interesting options that work on the tabletop *makes Astartes players less happy.* They see it as a zero-sum game.

I like how projection is so strong here it makes lascannons look like flashlights. No, people had problems with this comically stupid, idiotic nonsense of a unit because of broken rules that peed all over fluff (pistols banged together from scrap stronger than necron and DAoT weaponry? yeah, whatever, let's ignore destroyed verisimilitude because my faction gets to be OP!). It would be one thing if he had plasma pistols or some special tyranid gun or something but as it is, that is one of the dumbest units ever made in 40K. Both fluff and rules.

Funny how almost no one protested hexmark, which is kelly sue made right, and is actually fun, interesting option, not pile of steaming gak that is unfun to play against and requires zero braincells to actually use. If SM actually had an unit like KM, howls about it from complainers would be unending. But alas, SM have nothing anywhere near that broken, incidentally once again proving thread title wrong