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SecondTime wrote: Nope redemptor is still T7. It's a wave serpent that punches. T7 13W, -1 damage.
All Dreads (or almost all depending on how technical you want to get post FW book) got that. I’m not sure the Redemptor is the top beneficiary though, especially now that “bespoke” chapters can Storm Raven old Dreads. We’ve been making jokes about shoving Bjorn out the back for a while now, but a Storm Raven can drop a:
Furioso
DC Dred
Bjorn
Murderfang
Wulfen Dread
And some support characters, warlord traits and/or chapter tactics etc plus some sort of a Vanguard Vet unit to boost the charge range/fight damage/etc for a real bomb.
I feel Redemptors are very solid, but I'm not sure they are appearing in top lists. This might be due to the fact its still early.
The other argument is that if you took 3 they open up a reasonable number of points in Bring It Down if they do die, which isn't something Marines usually worry about. Really though I think its Eradicators and friends. Could be the new Lokhust, but not sure its making it into lists right now as a result of its fragility and high chance to just do nothing in a turn with only 1 shot. (Pay 75% more than an Eradicator for 1 more wound.)
All Dreads (or almost all depending on how technical you want to get post FW book) got that. I’m not sure the Redemptor is the top beneficiary though, especially now that “bespoke” chapters can Storm Raven old Dreads. .
I wish GW updated all dreads the changed all the marine dreads exept for the GK ones.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
JNAProductions wrote: SWS can advance and shoot, though.
And Erads don't get doubleshoot if they advance.
SWS are garbage compared to Eradicators, yeah, but there's no need to get rules wrong to make them worse than they are.
Yeah, my bad on the SWS, for some reason i had the meltas as heavy in my mind.
And since when can't eradicators advance and double shoot? was that changed in the codex?
JNAProductions wrote: SWS can advance and shoot, though.
And Erads don't get doubleshoot if they advance.
SWS are garbage compared to Eradicators, yeah, but there's no need to get rules wrong to make them worse than they are.
Yeah, my bad on the SWS, for some reason i had the meltas as heavy in my mind.
And since when can't eradicators advance and double shoot? was that changed in the codex?
Yup.
I'll still take a 29" 6 shot threat range over an 18" 3 shot threat range.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Do you honestly believe SWS or Fire Dragons are on par with Eradicators?
SWS is a resounding yes, . . .
WAT?
Like not even close. 24" range covers so much more area than 12".
And how many units shoot them? How many units shoot the Eradicators?
Death by a thousand paper cuts still leaves you dead. A bunch of cheap little Melta squads running around all over the place when MEQ prices have what 9- 10 (2 5 man Intercessors when you need both for a 6 man guard squad is one unit for these purposes) Non character units max? And still have to play the mission? And deal with whatever is in the Guard HS slots? Even six squads can get a lot of work done if the Marine (etc) player just doesn’t have enough units to go around.
I’m not sure yet. Sure, it’s Repulsor priced, but it’s Hard a To Hit, and transports a Dread, plus a Land Raider’s worth of dudes. Not worth it for DA, or Codex, but SW/BA might be able to work it. Especially BA, between Red Thirst and Melee Dreads without Shields.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/05 19:15:31
A SWS is 6 Guardsmen. 6.
It doesn't take a lot of fire power to kill them. They're regular humans walking around in paper mache.
Meanwhile Eradicators are running about with their 3 T5 Wounds and a 3+ save each. Pretty much the perfect spot, where regular anti infantry weapons stuggle while anti-tank weapons are overkill.
Also how is the Guard player getting 6 units of SWS when the Rule of 3 exists?
Most 40KAT guns are pretty efficient vs gravis due to the lack of invuln. To be fair. Targets that require AT profiles and yet sport invulns are the ones that cause the problems.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/05 19:24:19
Do you honestly believe SWS or Fire Dragons are on par with Eradicators?
SWS is a resounding yes, . . .
WAT?
Like not even close. 24" range covers so much more area than 12".
And how many units shoot them? How many units shoot the Eradicators?
Death by a thousand paper cuts still leaves you dead. A bunch of cheap little Melta squads running around all over the place when MEQ prices have what 9- 10 (2 5 man Intercessors when you need both for a 6 man guard squad is one unit for these purposes) Non character units max? And still have to play the mission? And deal with whatever is in the Guard HS slots? Even six squads can get a lot of work done if the Marine (etc) player just doesn’t have enough units to go around.
I dare you to play Guard, take a bunch of Melta Squads and see what happens.
My prediction is that they will mostly die without hurting anything.
My VV with storm shields will go pay them a visit for sure. Gearing up guardsmen like that is probably not the wisest usage of points. Back to the one wound model with gear problem again. Same as 1W oldboi marines, except I don't AP or mortals to wipe them up. Or, for my VV, I don't need to overload their plasma pistols.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/11/05 19:43:42
How is citing single placements even a counter argument for you? Did I ever say Marines don't make top 3 anymore? Did I ever say Necrons are making top 3 constantly now? Don't forget to laugh while you move your goalpost.
Assuming "Eradicator squad" without a number to it to be 3 guys, as otherwise you would have pointed out there being 12 Eradicator in a list... having a little more than two min sized Eradicator units (6,4) on average in each Marine list is spam?
How is it a counter to your argument? Simple. You said
Since their codex release Necrons went up from winning 37.7% of their games to 54.4%. With the exception of DA and UM all Marines went down in winrate, some significantly.
in response to me calling the SM codex OP and the Necron codex sub-par compared to the Marine Codex. So you are citing W/L rate as evidence that the Necron codex are at least as good as the Marine Codex, that or you are just randomly typing for no purpose. If I am misstating your argument by all means correct me.
I was pointing out that In the last 5 Majors, Marines have 5 lists winning the 1st or 2nd place prize while Necrons had 1 list that won 3rd place. Same time frame, significantly different results. Also those Marine lists were spaced out over several different colors of Marines. So have I moved the goal posts? No. My position has been that Marines are OP and are not balanced Vs. the only other faction that has a codex atm, which is an argument you seem to have been attempting to make by showing their W/L rate in 9th edition.
Now, as far as Spamming eradicators, I never argued they were getting spammed, I did mention they got spammed in 1 list, taking 11 of them is a hefty investment into a single model where the MAX you can take is I believe 18. With upgrades they accounted for about 25-30% of the Marine list. What I did do though was show that Marines are heavily utilizing a couple of units that have already been designated as being "problematic" in nature...translation: OP. Blade Guard, Eradicators and even post nerf, Aggressors. If you felt like I was saying they were spammed in general, sorry for the confusion, but that was not my claim, that was your assumption.
Void__Dragon wrote: I'm honestly not sure how to nerf them without making them useless. Making them have baseline Marine durability is unfortunately off the tables because they're in Gravis armour and as such have to have the stupid Gravis profile, otherwise that's where I'd at least start.
They don't need to be nerfed. 2 Melta shots for 40 points isn't outside the norm.
Per 45ish Points a Landspeeder Tornado will have 1 MM, and 3 Assault Cannon Shots.
Per 40 points an attack bike has about 1 and a half MM shots, and 3 bolter shots.
Devs and Tactical Heavies are also just under 40 points for 2 MM Shots.
The most expensive per-Melta is probably the ATV everyone was flagellating themselves over because a Medic COULD heal it IF everything worked out exactly right at 1 Melta and 3 Bolter shots per just over 40.
Until Recently you were better with:
Scouts over Eliminators because you could take 10 scouts in a slot you already had to take something in - didn't "Cost" you more in any way.
Anything over vehicles. Still are. At least for the large ones.
Erads over Hellblasters (The changes to Hellblasters may change things on paper, but it's going to take a while for that to shake out given the waiting list on painting tables)
Erads aren't underpriced (at least not substantially so) but they're being taken because Hellblasters are slightly overpriced (in the configuration most of us have them in) and aren't in a point in the model release/build/buy fill-ins cycle to replace the ones we already have. If some full kit Hellbalsters (or ETB versions with Assautl or Heavy) showed up, we might start seeing Hellblasters again. Especially the Assault Versions. Some Assault versions in an Impulsor is really growing on me. 5 of them are 150-175 points, they're throwing down 15 S6 -4 D1 shots, add a cap to overcharge if you want to, but its still hard to OC 30-35 points into Instant Death.
Breton...i'll actually agree with you. When compared internally I believe you are correct. The only problem I have with your well thought out analysis (Serious no sarcasm) is that it doesn't account for external balance. The issue is that the Marine codex right now has ridiculous power levels to the point where if Eradicators got nerfed, there are many other choices readily available that are almost as good. This doesn't mean eradicators are fine where they are, it means the entire Codex is OP. Now, give it 2 years and maybe every codex goes to that power level, personally I hope that isn't the case because I already feel like the game is far to lethal (things die to quickly).
Are they more expensive? The claim was units that can take Multimelta are more expensive not counting Retributors. Why Retributors don’t count, I don’t know. Other than anything that disproves the narrative can’t be allowed to count. And now, neither do the Servitors. Or the guard special weapons. Or the firedragons. Or anything else that gets on Melta shot per 20 or so points.
I said they don’t need to be nerfed, someone said facts do t matter, they stopped listening.
I pointed out a number of units getting a Melta shot per 20 or so points to prove it.
Those don’t count because some fictional unit that isn’t Retributtors have to pay more for their Multimelta shots.
I ask which fictional unit this is - the answer is none, but that isn’t important
I point out more units getting a Melta shot per 20 or so points and we see even more “that doesn’t count because reasons unrelated to the claim”.
And I will disagree with this. Yes your point is well made but you are arguing semantically instead of taking the intent of the argument to heart. At the moment an Eradicator is 40pts (45 likely W/upgrade) And gets 1 melta shot per 20pts at BS3. On a toughness 5 3+ save model with 3 wounds. Yes I am factoring in the double shot if they don't split fire. No other faction can get that level of damage output on a model that is remotely close to that tough. You mention Guard special weapon squads, and I agree they are criminally underpriced. But talk about a difference in durability. a 45pt Special weapons squad can have 3 Melta guns, but they have 1/2 the range of Eradicators, they are BS4 instead of BS3 and most importantly. they are T3 6W 5+ save. An eradicator takes 54 lasgun shots,
about 40-41 bolter shots to kill. That guard squad takes 36 lasgun shots or 20-21 bolter shots to kill. So half the range and about twice as vulnerable to small arms fire.
If you want you can compare this to a Tankbusta unit for orkz. Generally orkz roll with 5-10 of them in a Trukk. Lets ignore the trukk for now though and stick with just dmg potential. 5 tankbustas at 85pts get 5 shots, for just shy of 2 hits. Against a Grav armor primaris (probably their best target to shoot at thanks to Flat 3 Dmg) they get 1.33 wounds at -2AP for about an 88% chance to kill 1 Grav Marine. Against a T8 Vehicle (3+) they get 5 shots, for 3.2ish hits (full rerolls vs vehicles) 1.6ish wounds against a 5+ save about 1 goes through for about 3dmg total. For the same price, Eradicators can have 2 marines, 1 with upgraded rifle. So thats 2 normal shots and 2 upgraded shots. 1.33 hits each. .66 chance to wound for each one, no saves allowed so the normal one averages 2.3 dmg a turn and the upgraded one averages 4.3dmg a turn. Total about 6.6dmg, more than DOUBLE what the Tankbustas get. This obviously goes up if the erads get closer (By 4dmg). Durability wise, its not looking good. Those 5 tankbustas take 18 Bolter or 35 lasgun shots to get wiped out compared to the Eradicators 40-41bolter and 54 lasgun shots. So The eradicators are significantly more durable vs most small arms fire.
I personally want everyone's damage potential dropped. The game has gotten to the silly level of killing. When entire vehicle formations die turn 1 and a horde of infantry are gunned down before they even get to do anything, the game has gone too far. Eradicators are just the newest, and most obvious example of how far the game has gone. 45pts nets you 2 S8 -4AP D6+2 shots on a T5 3W 3+ save model. That is honestly bonkers, add in the bonuses they can get, rerolls etc and yeah, vehicles are basically not going to be able to function unless they can reliably stay out of range for most of the game.
SWS, Firedragons, Tankbustas, none of these come close to the damage potential AND durability of Eradicators.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/05 23:02:08
SecondTime wrote: That would be more convincing if eradicators didn't have T5 and double the range.
Nobody seems to be able to find these mysterious Melta units that cost more. But they sure can find new Reasons any unit that disproves the claim doesn’t count.
Eradicators are broken because they’re the only Melta unit with a model whose left boot is larger than the right boot manufactured in June after 2019 but before 2021, while being eligible to be painted in two different shades of green and two different shades of blue. Totally not because it’s a marine unit and very inline with price points.
Sorry I missed all this fun today. But since you've already thrown a units durability out of equation and are just looking for price per melta shot: Land Raider Achilles. 360 PPM with 2 twin multi- meltas once the Imperial Armour Compendium drops. That's 8 shots, so 45 points per shot. And I don't want to hear anything about those 16 T8 2+ 5++ wounds.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Sorry I missed all this fun today. But since you've already thrown a units durability out of equation and are just looking for price per melta shot: Land Raider Achilles. 360 PPM with 2 twin multi- meltas once the Imperial Armour Compendium drops. That's 8 shots, so 45 points per shot.
I like this dishonesty. Yeah, it's not like it has quad launcher, which for most intents and purposes acts as a third quad melta, so 12 shots/30 pts. Oops
JNAProductions wrote: And they require far less dedicated firepower to take down-SWS can die to a single 5-man Intercessor squad throwing chip fire at them. Fire Dragons require a bit more, but a 10-man should do them in just fine, taking out a five-man with an Exarch
Far less? Even in 8th edition, stupid proliferation of D2 guns made W2 stat almost meaningless. Now that GW doubled down on that and also started pumping out D3 weapons? Even gravis starts to look like a paper tiger, yes, technically it's "stronger" than W1 but I am strangely sure once Eldar and Tau books came out with their usual broken nonsense we will see guns spammed that will be autodeleting not just base SM, but gravis too. Just like Intercessors are now after 8th.
Funnily enough, some armies are even making the "weak" W1 a virtue, sidestepping D2/3 spam with cheap bodies (made even more cheap by points enemies wasted on bigger guns). So let's not act like gravis is always better, because in a lot of matchups it's worse.
catbarf wrote: Breton, like, are you even aware that the units you're comparing Eradicators to aren't used because they're generally considered bad, while 3x3 Eradicators are regularly showing up in tournament-winning lists?
Ah, yes, let's see. Out of curiosity I looked at most recent tournament on Goonhammer to see if anything changed:
Apparently these guys have no idea what they are doing, because GREAT STRAWMAN, the 3x3 Eradicators shows up a grand total of ZERO times in 1-20. Oh, wait, WS in 5th place have 2x, I guess. There is also Raven Guard with 1x. Three total SM armies in top 20, four if we expand it to top 30. Maybe you guys should inform them they would instantly win if they just brought 3x3 Eradicators?
It's funny how not only 26 armies in top 30 had no problems beating SM, but the SM armies that did well somehow didn't bothered to bring 3x3, endless wails it's supposedly the best unit in the game notwithstanding. If facts contradict theory, the worse for the facts, eh?
By the way, I had no idea games are now played on completely flat circle 24 inches in diameter. Is it some new rule added in 9th, seeing Eradicators somehow can target everything on the board at once without moving, judging by the above posts?
Gadzilla666 wrote: Sorry I missed all this fun today. But since you've already thrown a units durability out of equation and are just looking for price per melta shot: Land Raider Achilles. 360 PPM with 2 twin multi- meltas once the Imperial Armour Compendium drops. That's 8 shots, so 45 points per shot.
I like this dishonesty. Yeah, it's not like it has quad launcher, which for most intents and purposes acts as a third quad melta, so 12 shots/30 pts. Oops
You're always so entertaining. S8, AP-2, D3 VS S8, AP-4, Dd6/d6+2 within half range, so no, not quite 4 melta shots. At best maybe 2, but even with your assumed 30 points per shot that's 50% more expensive, and that's all we were looking for, wasn't it? Something that pays more than 20 points per shot of melta? Would you like to compare what a 360 PPM Achilles, including the quad launcher, can do compared to 360 points of eradicators? It would definitely put a damper on your whole "fw is too OP!" spiel.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Sorry I missed all this fun today. But since you've already thrown a units durability out of equation and are just looking for price per melta shot: Land Raider Achilles. 360 PPM with 2 twin multi- meltas once the Imperial Armour Compendium drops. That's 8 shots, so 45 points per shot.
I like this dishonesty. Yeah, it's not like it has quad launcher, which for most intents and purposes acts as a third quad melta, so 12 shots/30 pts. Oops
JNAProductions wrote: And they require far less dedicated firepower to take down-SWS can die to a single 5-man Intercessor squad throwing chip fire at them. Fire Dragons require a bit more, but a 10-man should do them in just fine, taking out a five-man with an Exarch
Far less? Even in 8th edition, stupid proliferation of D2 guns made W2 stat almost meaningless. Now that GW doubled down on that and also started pumping out D3 weapons? Even gravis starts to look like a paper tiger, yes, technically it's "stronger" than W1 but I am strangely sure once Eldar and Tau books came out with their usual broken nonsense we will see guns spammed that will be autodeleting not just base SM, but gravis too. Just like Intercessors are now after 8th.
Funnily enough, some armies are even making the "weak" W1 a virtue, sidestepping D2/3 spam with cheap bodies (made even more cheap by points enemies wasted on bigger guns). So let's not act like gravis is always better, because in a lot of matchups it's worse.
catbarf wrote: Breton, like, are you even aware that the units you're comparing Eradicators to aren't used because they're generally considered bad, while 3x3 Eradicators are regularly showing up in tournament-winning lists?
Ah, yes, let's see. Out of curiosity I looked at most recent tournament on Goonhammer to see if anything changed:
Apparently these guys have no idea what they are doing, because GREAT STRAWMAN, the 3x3 Eradicators shows up a grand total of ZERO times in 1-20. Oh, wait, WS in 5th place have 2x, I guess. There is also Raven Guard with 1x. Three total SM armies in top 20, four if we expand it to top 30. Maybe you guys should inform them they would instantly win if they just brought 3x3 Eradicators?
It's funny how not only 26 armies in top 30 had no problems beating SM, but the SM armies that did well somehow didn't bothered to bring 3x3, endless wails it's supposedly the best unit in the game notwithstanding. If facts contradict theory, the worse for the facts, eh?
By the way, I had no idea games are now played on completely flat circle 24 inches in diameter. Is it some new rule added in 9th, seeing Eradicators somehow can target everything on the board at once without moving, judging by the above posts?
The link you shared just shows top 1-5 places from this weekend with ravenguard being no1 and white scars no5.. I asusme its the latest event or something ?
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Apparently these guys have no idea what they are doing, because GREAT STRAWMAN, the 3x3 Eradicators shows up a grand total of ZERO times in 1-20. Oh, wait, WS in 5th place have 2x, I guess. There is also Raven Guard with 1x. Three total SM armies in top 20, four if we expand it to top 30. Maybe you guys should inform them they would instantly win if they just brought 3x3 Eradicators?
I pointed out that Eradicators have regularly featured in tournament-winning lists, and your rebuttal is to point out that... in a single tournament they only show up a couple of times in the top placing lists? With the overall winner bringing a trio of Eradicators? Yeah? Well, that's a nice straw man you've got there; if anyone said 'any list that brings 9 Eradicators is undefeatable!!1!1!1' you might have had a point.
Anyways, let's see how often Eradicators show up at the high levels of other tournaments:
Now please, by all means, comb through high-placing Astra Militarum lists and tell me how many Special Weapons Squads appeared, so that you can refute my actual argument- which was that Eradicators are played in tournaments, and SWS aren't. I'm dying to see all the triple melta Special Weapon Squads that Breton is so convinced are just as viable as Eradicators.
(Given that Irbis only ever seems to make drive-by shitpost-y attacks I'm not holding my breath for a good-faith response, this is more for the benefit of the peanut gallery)
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/11/06 04:40:30
Yeah agreed with catbarf, what an ridiculous post. The levels of condescension in that post are way too high for someone who clearly doesn’t understand what they are even discussing. Imagine thinking that Eradicators can’t be OP because people aren’t taking 3x3 of them? WHY would you take that many Eradicators? The entire reason they are OP is because a single unit or two can utterly decimate even Knights for such a minor investment. Filling your entire HS slots doesn’t seem optimal for anything other than if you’re expecting a very specific meta, and as you said, even 3x3 STILL makes regular showings.
His entire argument just boils down to a perspective of “being good at Warhammer means spamming OP unit!” and it’s such a low level understanding of 40k and Eradicators are a unit that display why. These things aren’t 6th Ed Wraithknights, they have a highly specialised role that they overperform at, that’s what makes them OP, not cramming as much of them as you can in a list.
And on top of that, yeah you were just saying that they featured commonly, 1 event doesn’t disprove that. I can’t understand the thought process that drives someone to make the post he just did.
Lol in general that we now have people saying SWS are as good as Erads, what a meme. God the SM community sometimes makes me embarrassed of my collection.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Lol he’s acting like Eradicators aren’t any tankier than literal guardsmen aha. Are these people on a payroll or something? It feels like paid propaganda because of how blatantly absurd it is.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/11/06 04:55:20
And I will disagree with this. Yes your point is well made but you are arguing semantically instead of taking the intent of the argument to heart.
Look at the entire argument. Retributors don't count because No Reason. Arguing Semantically was the "rules" of the argument. Even you're about to do it. T3 5+ that isn't shot at is a lot more durable than T5 3+ that is. I already pointed out a MEQ priced army could have (generally at best) 10 units to "act" (read shoot/fight) opposing units. With 12 Infantry squads on objectives, and 6 little melta units running around, something isn't being shot at. Well except for the guy who thinks his Vanguard Vet unit is going to be running around 6 different places wiping out 6 different units all at once.
When the premise of the argument is to change 20 points per melta shot to everyone else pays more for Multi Meltas - except for the only other unit he can think of that can take Multi Meltas so honestly there are no other candidates - How else BUT semantically is this argument supposed to play out? My little joke about left boots being larger than right boots and "doesn't count" was about this exact thing - using semantics and laser focused cherry picking to so limit the paradigm. No other T5 3+ Melta unit is as cheap as Erads because Erads are the only T5 3+ melta unit
At the moment an Eradicator is 40pts (45 likely W/upgrade) And gets 1 melta shot per 20pts at BS3. On a toughness 5 3+ save model with 3 wounds. Yes I am factoring in the double shot if they don't split fire.
And SWS are 1 Melta shot per 20ish points(less if you don't count the ablative wound), on a BS4 body nobody is shooting at because they're drowning in T3 1W 5+ bodies. There's more than one road to durability.
No other faction can get that level of damage output on a model that is remotely close to that tough. You mention Guard special weapon squads, and I agree they are criminally underpriced. But talk about a difference in durability. a 45pt Special weapons squad can have 3 Melta guns, but they have 1/2 the range of Eradicators, they are BS4 instead of BS3 and most importantly. they are T3 6W 5+ save. An eradicator takes 54 lasgun shots,
about 40-41 bolter shots to kill. That guard squad takes 36 lasgun shots or 20-21 bolter shots to kill. So half the range and about twice as vulnerable to small arms fire.
12 Infantry Squads, 3 SWS and 3 Command Squads require 18 units to shoot at them. That's a special kind of durability all its own.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nitro Zeus wrote: The levels of condescension in that post are way too high for someone who clearly doesn’t understand
Irony Alert!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/11/06 06:21:19
@ Breton: honest question: why do you think nobody would shoot at SWS because "they are drowning in T3 5+ bodies"?
If you are facing lots of T3 5+, isn't it pretty obvious that you should shoot at the dudes holding meltas (and trying to get into 12" range) first?
Why should anyone think he should better clear the lasgun holding infantry squads first?
EDIT: and please take BS into account when comparing price/Melta shot.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/06 07:09:44
~7510 build and painted
1312 build and painted
1200
Pyroalchi wrote: @ Breton: honest question: why do you think nobody would shoot at SWS because "they are drowning in T3 5+ bodies"?
If you are facing lots of T3 5+, isn't it pretty obvious that you should shoot at the dudes holding meltas (and trying to get into 12" range) first?
Why should anyone think he should better clear the lasgun holding infantry squads first?
EDIT: and please take BS into account when comparing price/Melta shot.
Well sure, you could shoot the meltas first. But you give up the Objectives and VPs. Who here isn't willing to trade 45 points for 5 VP?
Pyroalchi wrote: But, by that same logic why shoot at the Eradicators and not the SM troops holding objectives?
I mean either both are priority targets or none?
As soon as Marines have more units to shoot at than you have to shoot at them, it might force such a decision. How many units does a guard army have? even if they start with 12 Infantry squads that's only a third of their army or so. Another 6 of those cheap little Meltas and are we even at half? And they've got 18 shooters. At 200 points a 10 man Intercessor pop, Marines have 9 units and two characters. As soon as they start adding things like Aggressors and Erads they lose Intercessors a lot faster than Guard are going to lose Infantry Squads. God Forbid they start adding things like Land Raiders and Repulsors.
I sometimes wonder how people’s opinion of certain units is so extremely different to ours that they find Special weapons Squads as powerful as Eradicators, but after reading how they are playing against it, everything becomes a lot clearer.
@ Breton: again: IG can take maximum 3 SWS. Not 6. So Maximum 9 meltas with BS 4+ and 12'' range. Which transfers to 4.5 hits at 12'' range for 135 points.
3 Eradicators with the normal rifles score 4 hits for 120 points at 24'' range or (with the MM) 5.33 hits for 140 points (MM was +20, right? I'm not sure).
I'm willing to engage in an honest discussion and am open to be convinced with compelling arguments, but it should be based on the rules and not inflate the number of Units an army can take.
~7510 build and painted
1312 build and painted
1200
Pyroalchi wrote: @ Breton: again: IG can take maximum 3 SWS. Not 6.
I'll take Command Squads for 45 Alex. SWS are just one of the small Melta Squads that can be running around. Hell someone else already pointed out there could be 9 of the things running around if you mix and match Tempestus.
Eldar- 4436 pts
~7510 build and painted
1312 build and painted
1200 