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Different statline, wargear options and special rules are enough to make eldar bikers flavourfully different from a SM one and it is enough to give me a different feeling of flavour when I play TWC from a bike on my own table.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Type40 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Type40 wrote:

Abaddon303 wrote:
Options are what makes this game what it is. I love to be able to make a choice even if that choice has only a small effect on the table. If it was purely arbitrary aesthetic choices it would make those choices redundant and therefore ultimately pointless.
Synergies, special rules, stats need to feel like they're having an impact on the game, even if it's a tiny tipping of the odds of the dice throw, otherwise the game would make you feel like a spectator.
It feels good to feel vindicated by choosing that +1s power axe instead of sword as if that was a tactical masterstroke. Isn't the whole thing about building your army in your vision?

I completely agree with this sentiment.

And 100% we arn't the only gamers out their who would feel pretty upset and disillusioned by the game if unique rules were removed from out unique models.
As for those who seem to think they arn't unique... you don't have to think they arn't, the fact is we do, GW knows we do, and they deliberately release the alternative kits because of us.
This why its frustrating that people don't seem to understand when we argue "well why don't we just roll all the factions into one set of datasheets" argument. We have been sold a unique thing. This is what they sold us, this is what we bought, this is what we honestly believe and feel. Just like your Xenos armies are different from vanilla marines, so are my SWs... so I want my rules to be flavored to reflect that in at least some small way.

I agree with you guys on the "choices are important" aspect, but honestly, what is the big difference between an Outrider and TWC? Do TWC get a special rule that makes them extra SW-y ?

different statline (specifically different movement), different special rules (i.e. Swift Hunters) different wargear options, extra attacks from the wolf, access to wolfy specific strats specificaly for TWC.

Movement i agree its different, What is this "Swift hunters" rule? i can't see it on the datasheet. Wargear option could be given to outriders too in their full kit, SW stratagems could be reworded to apply to "space wolf cavalry"

"Whats the difference betwen this two things? They have none!"
"Actually, this is a list of the differences"
"Yeah but if you give both the same options, removing the differences, then they wont be different anymore!"

Different statlines, weapon options and special rules is literally the three things that make ALL units different in the game.

Whats the difference between a grot and a Warlord Titan? Statline, weapons and special rules.

 Galas wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Type40 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Type40 wrote:

Abaddon303 wrote:
Options are what makes this game what it is. I love to be able to make a choice even if that choice has only a small effect on the table. If it was purely arbitrary aesthetic choices it would make those choices redundant and therefore ultimately pointless.
Synergies, special rules, stats need to feel like they're having an impact on the game, even if it's a tiny tipping of the odds of the dice throw, otherwise the game would make you feel like a spectator.
It feels good to feel vindicated by choosing that +1s power axe instead of sword as if that was a tactical masterstroke. Isn't the whole thing about building your army in your vision?

I completely agree with this sentiment.

And 100% we arn't the only gamers out their who would feel pretty upset and disillusioned by the game if unique rules were removed from out unique models.
As for those who seem to think they arn't unique... you don't have to think they arn't, the fact is we do, GW knows we do, and they deliberately release the alternative kits because of us.
This why its frustrating that people don't seem to understand when we argue "well why don't we just roll all the factions into one set of datasheets" argument. We have been sold a unique thing. This is what they sold us, this is what we bought, this is what we honestly believe and feel. Just like your Xenos armies are different from vanilla marines, so are my SWs... so I want my rules to be flavored to reflect that in at least some small way.

I agree with you guys on the "choices are important" aspect, but honestly, what is the big difference between an Outrider and TWC? Do TWC get a special rule that makes them extra SW-y ?

different statline (specifically different movement), different special rules (i.e. Swift Hunters) different wargear options, extra attacks from the wolf, access to wolfy specific strats specificaly for TWC.

Movement i agree its different, What is this "Swift hunters" rule? i can't see it on the datasheet. Wargear option could be given to outriders too in their full kit, SW stratagems could be reworded to apply to "space wolf cavalry"

"Whats the difference betwen this two things? They have none!"
"Actually, this is a list of the differences"
"Yeah but if you give both the same options, removing the differences, then they wont be different anymore!"

Right ^ this ....

Swift hunters = advance and charge... and ya giving the bikers access to the strats , the different wargear and I guess "wolf attacks" would make them the exact same ... just like if we changed all the rules for an eldar biker, gave them marine wargear options , the same rules, access to the same strats and same statline they would be exactly the same too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Different statlines, weapon options and special rules is literally the three things that make ALL units different in the game.

Also, unit composition and unit size can be added to this list.

TWC is different from bikes on those two fronts as well.

You misunderstand.
We don't currently know what will be in the full outrider kit, Storm shield + TH could be a possibility.
Outriders get extra attacks on the charge too.
And is swift hunter a stratagem or an "always on" rule? I've never seen it before.

And i'm not advocating to get rid of TWC and make them become Outriders, i'm trying to understand what exactly would be lost.
I'm personally of the opinion that the less datasheet, the better it is for the game's balance since you get less variables. Which means easier balancing.

The biggest problem with GW games balancing is GW themselves, not the numbers of options or datasheets. Look at AoS, a much simpler game with extremely simplified weapon and units profiles and nothing was "won" on that transition.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
You misunderstand.
We don't currently know what will be in the full outrider kit, Storm shield + TH could be a possibility.

yes we do. We have codex space marines. we have the rules for every marine release this release cycle. Outriders have ZERO options.


furthermore, the thunder hammer +stormshield isn;t a option for the sergant, it's an option the ENTIRE squad can take, because they are a mounted "veteran" unit.


seriously dude claiming "ohh they could just be the same thing" amounts to grasping at straws. as others have said, the differances are about as major as that between a SM bike and a fething ELDAR Bike.

oddly I don't hear anyone suggesting that "in the name of simplicity we should squat codex eldar"

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
You misunderstand.
We don't currently know what will be in the full outrider kit, Storm shield + TH could be a possibility.
Outriders get extra attacks on the charge too.
And is swift hunter a stratagem or an "always on" rule? I've never seen it before.

And i'm not advocating to get rid of TWC and make them become Outriders, i'm trying to understand what exactly would be lost.
I'm personally of the opinion that the less datasheet, the better it is for the game's balance since you get less variables. Which means easier balancing.

There are more unique wargear on a TWC then just SS + TH (thats just the min - max build) .
TWC do not get "extra attacks" on the charge.
TWC get to attack with 3 X +1 -2 1 dmg weapons ALL the time (cuz wolves be bitey and savage)
Swift Hunters is an always rule. Right on their datasheet.
The strats TWC have access to are 1: for wolfgaurd (outriders are not WG they arn't vets) as the TWC are SW vets 2: for TWC specifically (one strat which augments the wolf attacks dmg and the other that represents trampling the opponent with the wolf). Sure the trampling strat could carry over to the outriders but increasing the dmg for the wolf attacks isn't appropriate for outriders.

You should check out the SW datasheets they are free in the FAQ index right now, Swift hunters is on there.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/GamaHDmpGRQShG3u.pdf



Automatically Appended Next Post:
As mentioned above , lightning claws, SS + TH . SS + power axe, power axe + boltgun and etc etc etc are all options for ALL TWC not just the sgt, they are wolfgaurd (aka specalized SW vets).

BrianDavion wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
You misunderstand.
We don't currently know what will be in the full outrider kit, Storm shield + TH could be a possibility.

yes we do. We have codex space marines. we have the rules for every marine release this release cycle. Outriders have ZERO options.


furthermore, the thunder hammer +stormshield isn;t a option for the sergant, it's an option the ENTIRE squad can take, because they are a mounted "veteran" unit.


seriously dude claiming "ohh they could just be the same thing" amounts to grasping at straws. as others have said, the differances are about as major as that between a SM bike and a fething ELDAR Bike.

oddly I don't hear anyone suggesting that "in the name of simplicity we should squat codex eldar"

again, i havnt said we should squat codex SW, i even said i dont wish for TWC to be gone either. Youre being overly hostile for no reason.
And i think if eldar bikers were the exact same as mariens ones, with only fly being the difference, the difference would still be bigger than between outrider (with alt wargear options) and twc

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Type40 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
You misunderstand.
We don't currently know what will be in the full outrider kit, Storm shield + TH could be a possibility.
Outriders get extra attacks on the charge too.
And is swift hunter a stratagem or an "always on" rule? I've never seen it before.

And i'm not advocating to get rid of TWC and make them become Outriders, i'm trying to understand what exactly would be lost.
I'm personally of the opinion that the less datasheet, the better it is for the game's balance since you get less variables. Which means easier balancing.

There are more unique wargear on a TWC then just SS + TH (thats just the min - max build) .
TWC do not get "extra attacks" on the charge.
TWC get to attack with 3 X +1 -2 1 dmg weapons ALL the time (cuz wolves be bitey and savage)
Swift Hunters is an always rule. Right on their datasheet.
The strats TWC have access to are 1: for wolfgaurd (outriders are not WG they arn't vets) as the TWC are SW vets 2: for TWC specifically (one strat which augments the wolf attacks dmg and the other that represents trampling the opponent with the wolf). Sure the trampling strat could carry over to the outriders but increasing the dmg for the wolf attacks isn't appropriate for outriders.

You should check out the SW datasheets they are free in the FAQ index right now, Swift hunters is on there.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/GamaHDmpGRQShG3u.pdf



Automatically Appended Next Post:
As mentioned above , lightning claws, SS + TH . SS + power axe, power axe + boltgun and etc etc etc are all options for ALL TWC not just the sgt, they are wolfgaurd (aka specalized SW vets).

oh, swift hunters is a 9th edition thing, which explains why i never saw it before.
And fine, i guess there are too many differences between the two to merge them together, even if they are small differences (except for wargear)

So how do you see TWC making the transition to Primaris?

Just curious. Are they going to find even BIGGER wolves to ride? Is the wargear going to transition?

Be serious. The future of Space Wolf "cavalry" is outriders. Maybe they will come with a bonus sprue to add some wolves as bonus dudes in the unit. But they are going to be on bikes eventually.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
You misunderstand.
We don't currently know what will be in the full outrider kit, Storm shield + TH could be a possibility.

yes we do. We have codex space marines. we have the rules for every marine release this release cycle. Outriders have ZERO options.


furthermore, the thunder hammer +stormshield isn;t a option for the sergant, it's an option the ENTIRE squad can take, because they are a mounted "veteran" unit.


seriously dude claiming "ohh they could just be the same thing" amounts to grasping at straws. as others have said, the differances are about as major as that between a SM bike and a fething ELDAR Bike.

oddly I don't hear anyone suggesting that "in the name of simplicity we should squat codex eldar"

again, i havnt said we should squat codex SW, i even said i dont wish for TWC to be gone either. Youre being overly hostile for no reason.

Lets not degrade into argument on this one again XD... lol, some of us are just sensitive because the idea of this faction full of unique twists and flavour that we are heavily invested in has a large group of people who have not bothered to look at how different our unique units and claim they should be squated. You might not have said it, but many people have indeed suggested it.

It is ture, SW players who Min/Max the primaris horde don't look, feel or mechanically play so so different from any other marine subfaction.
But the guys who are hear defending their uniqueness are not talking about the vanilla that floods the tournaments these days.
SWs have 30+ unique datasheets and another 10 -20 exceptions to the regular units. Sure they have access to the vanilla. But a lot of us play the faction so we can see our alternative units and different mechanics play out on the table. I know if primaris never existed, it would really really obvious how different the wolf units are, but alas that isn't the case.
We were sold on an alternative power armor faction, we don't want to feel like we are playing a marine faction with a different paint job, that isn't what we were sold and that is also not what we currently have. We are deffinitly going to fight against people sugesting that should be taken away from us. Just like any reasonable person would feel if people started sugesting their Xenos or w/e faction should just be a clone of the most vanilla faction in the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:
So how do you see TWC making the transition to Primaris?

Just curious. Are they going to find even BIGGER wolves to ride? Is the wargear going to transition?

Be serious. The future of Space Wolf "cavalry" is outriders. Maybe they will come with a bonus sprue to add some wolves as bonus dudes in the unit. But they are going to be on bikes eventually.

No offence.
But your 100% the other type of power armor player... and that is ok, we just enjoy the faction for different reasons.
You seem to be super happy with the min/max best unit for the role, vanilla rules or not , its all about tactics and game decisions. I get the impression the feeling of unique or fluffy rules (regardless of power level) mean little to you. and ya, that is totally cool, that's how you want to play.
That however, is not how a lot of people want to play SWs.
They arn't looking for "how they are going to transition the TWC to primaris."
We just want our fluffy unit and would honestly prefer they didn't transition them to vanilla primaris... it my be futile but at least for now GW is appeasing us asking to keep our unique stuff unique.
The alternative rules on the table is exactly what appeals to us. And again, I understand that's not your Jam, and it is totally ok for us to enjoy the game differently. Remember GW know players like myself and others in this thread exist and they also know players like you exist. There is enough room for both of us to exist in the same space, we just can't forget the other guy does, in fact, exist.

 Type40 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
So how do you see TWC making the transition to Primaris?

Just curious. Are they going to find even BIGGER wolves to ride? Is the wargear going to transition?

Be serious. The future of Space Wolf "cavalry" is outriders. Maybe they will come with a bonus sprue to add some wolves as bonus dudes in the unit. But they are going to be on bikes eventually.

No offence.
But your 100% the other type of power armor player... and that is ok, we just enjoy the faction for different reasons.
You seem to be super happy with the min/max best unit for the role, vanilla rules or not , its all about tactics and game decisions. I get the impression the feeling of unique or fluffy rules (regardless of power level) mean little to you. and ya, that is totally cool, that's how you want to play.
That however, is not how a lot of people want to play SWs.
They arn't looking for "how they are going to transition the TWC to primaris."
We just want our fluffy unit and would honestly prefer they didn't transition them to vanilla primaris... it my be futile but at least for now GW is appeasing us asking to keep our unique stuff unique.
The alternative rules on the table is exactly what appeals to us. And again, I understand that's not your Jam, and it is totally ok for us to enjoy the game differently. Remember GW know players like myself and others in this thread exist and they also know players like you exist. There is enough room for both of us to exist in the same space, we just can't forget the other guy does, in fact, exist.

Incorrect. I am not a power armor player. One of your characters has already made the primaris conversion. By the lore no regular space marines are being made. It's all primaris all the time from here on out. By simple attrition + marines making the upgrade it's just going to be all primaris by the lore. On top of that GW is going to keep churning out the new primaris models. You have almost nothing left that needs replacement.

I am very happy to squat all old marines so the SM army can start looking like anything even remotely called reasonable. Your want of fluff is irrelevant. The future of the SM line is primaris. How do you see them making the transition mechanically?

 Lance845 wrote:

 Type40 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
So how do you see TWC making the transition to Primaris?

Just curious. Are they going to find even BIGGER wolves to ride? Is the wargear going to transition?

Be serious. The future of Space Wolf "cavalry" is outriders. Maybe they will come with a bonus sprue to add some wolves as bonus dudes in the unit. But they are going to be on bikes eventually.

No offence.
But your 100% the other type of power armor player... and that is ok, we just enjoy the faction for different reasons.
You seem to be super happy with the min/max best unit for the role, vanilla rules or not , its all about tactics and game decisions. I get the impression the feeling of unique or fluffy rules (regardless of power level) mean little to you. and ya, that is totally cool, that's how you want to play.
That however, is not how a lot of people want to play SWs.
They arn't looking for "how they are going to transition the TWC to primaris."
We just want our fluffy unit and would honestly prefer they didn't transition them to vanilla primaris... it my be futile but at least for now GW is appeasing us asking to keep our unique stuff unique.
The alternative rules on the table is exactly what appeals to us. And again, I understand that's not your Jam, and it is totally ok for us to enjoy the game differently. Remember GW know players like myself and others in this thread exist and they also know players like you exist. There is enough room for both of us to exist in the same space, we just can't forget the other guy does, in fact, exist.

Incorrect. I am not a power armor player. One of your characters has already made the primaris conversion. By the lore no regular space marines are being made. It's all primaris all the time from here on out. By simple attrition + marines making the upgrade it's just going to be all primaris by the lore. On top of that GW is going to keep churning out the new primaris models. You have almost nothing left that needs replacement.

I am very happy to squat all old marines so the SM army can start looking like anything even remotely called reasonable. Your want of fluff is irrelevant. The future of the SM line is primaris. How do you see them making the transition mechanically?

It's fine if you think. By sheer existence of the current inclusion of the FB stuff with its unique abilities in the new supplement (or likely in the new supplement as seen from the format of the marine dex). It is clear that GW, at least for now, still feels what we want is relevant. Again, its ok if you don't think it is, there is room in the space for both of our ways of approaching the game. I don't really care about FB transitioning mechanically. GW is clearly still supporting our FB unique stuff.
Again, when we are talking about fluff, we are talking about the unique rules we see on the table, we are talking about being rewarded ruleswise for making alternative choices, we are talking about even the minor differences that represent our choices. GW is still actively produice TWC kits, FB SW kits, and all sorts of other SW unique kits.

We are allowed to enjoy different aspects of the game. You really can't tell me I am not allowed to enjoy the unique flavour on the unique units that GW 100% is supporting this edition.. that's up to me and the other players who feel like me on this. And I don't have the right for you to prefer seeing the vanilla primaris armies accross the table from you, thats what you enjoy, so enjoy it . But as long as GW supports what brings me enjoyment in the game AND what brings you enjoyment in the game then we should try and exist in the same space.

One day when/if (most likely when) every power armor faction is only the vanilla line, then sure, there will be no reason for us to talk about unique supplements, unique units, or unique model ranges. But that time isn't now, it isn't this edition and your going to have to accept that players who enjoy their factions unique units, models and faction gets to keep their unique rules. And we get to accept that some people who play this faction just want to play min/max vanilla units with nothing that makes them unique and special to the SW faction itself. There is space for us both and there is nothing wrong with that.

Lets enjoy the game in the way we enjoy the game shall we. Just don't forget that by squating the unique parts of the SWs there will be a lot of players, who enjoy the game for unique rules and fluffy rules(this includes our brain fluff, not w/e fluff you decide to quote to 'prove' we arn't allowed to feel this way), who will feel exactly the way an eldar player would feel if their faction just became an exact clone of SMs... You don't get to dictate our feeling on this, we were sold a unique faction when we bought into the game and that's what we have been playing and collecting for years.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Again, its ok for us to enjoy the game differently. More power to us . Just stop pretending like your way of enjoying the game is the ONLY way of enjoying it. Not all of us care only about that Min/Max best unit for the role vanilla style of collecting and playing the game.

This is not a question about us enjoying the game. This discussion is not about your enjoyment about fluff or whatever. This is about the consolidation of datasheets and asking if there is any benefit to keeping them seperate.

You like having unique data sheets. Great. Gratz. When the time comes that all old marines are moved to legends you will have legends and old editions to play with them with. I am happy that you will be happy that you have that.

That is not my question. Answer the question. Do you honestly think TWC are going to stick around?

 Lance845 wrote:
By the lore no regular space marines are being made[/b]. It's all primaris all the time from here on out.

According to GW's 500 facts for 500 Stores, Firstborn Marines are still being made, with many chapters finding a use for first born due to more readily avaliabl equipment etc.

but hey don't let the facts get in your way!

 Lance845 wrote:
This is not a question about us enjoying the game. This discussion is not about your enjoyment about fluff or whatever. This is about the consolidation of datasheets and asking if there is any benefit to keeping them seperate.

You like having unique data sheets. Great. Gratz. When the time comes that all old marines are moved to legends you will have legends and old editions to play with them with. I am happy that you will be happy that you have that.

That is not my question. Answer the question. Do you honestly think TWC are going to stick around?

For at least the time of this codex/supplement release we know 100% TWC will stick around. We know 100% GW is aware of players like me, and others on this thread, by the very virtue the TWC sheet not being consolidated into the outriders as some kind of SM cavalary.

I am not going to speculate on what happens next edition. My wants and what I enjoy out of the game has been addressed by GW this release. They know they have gamers like me and they have done what they can to make sure we are happy by providing us with unique units, models, and units with alternative builds to the regular vanilla. So at least for this release yes 100% I believe the TWC and other unique units will continue to exist.

So again, myself, and players like me who love the faction for its unique differences will continue to share the gaming space with you at least until the next marine codex comes out... Whether or not GW will continue to value us as customers in the future is up to them. But considering what this edition looks like, it seems like they will. But who knows, maybe not. And if they don't then sure, its time to proxy my TWC as bikes or stick only to playing casual games with legends. But that time isn't now and it doesnt seem like it will be this edition.

So again, stop trying to chase away players like me and others in this thread and instead enjoy the game with us, until, what you think is the inevitable finally happens. GW certainly isn't trying to chase us away, they keep giving us what we want. (though by presenting the data for what we want in the supplement AND main codex way, I think they have chosen bad design and user interfacing,,, but alas, we still have what we wanted, just presented in a silly and confusing way,,, and GW gets more money from us because we have to buy two books XD)

BTW A recent issue of white dwarf had a picture of someone's converted primaris battle leader on a Thunder Wolf. it didn't look all that over sized. so primaris TWC'd be quite doable.

besides, bigger thunder wolves suddenly popping up down the road make sense.... we all know why

You and I are having different conversations. I am not discussing your enjoyment of fluffy units and I don't care if you stay or go. I am not chasing anyone anywhere.

Let me know when they release a new box with old marines in it. ::thumbs up::

 Lance845 wrote:
You and I are having different conversations. I am not discussing your enjoyment of fluffy units and I don't care if you stay or go. I am not chasing anyone anywhere.

Let me know when they release a new box with old marines in it. ::thumbs up::

We are having the same conversation, you just arn't getting it.
Again, it's all good, you are totally entitled to your FB are doomed train of thought,,, in fact I agree with you... but the FB apocalypse isn't now and it doesn't look like it is this edition... and I assume the OP is about the current state of the game not some future FB apocalypses version of it.

When the FB apocalypse happens, my thoughts on folding the marine factions in, having supplements or whether or not some power armor should be their own codex will 100% change... but again, that time isn't now, so stop being hostile to the players who like their unique units doing unique and fluffy things on the table. They are going to be here for a while longer and GW is continuing to support what brings us joy from this game and GW wants to support the people who find joy from the vanilla, min/max best unit for the role , primaris apraoch to power armor as well. And all this is ok.

We can, and infact must, currently occupy the same gaming space. So stop trying to suggest we are wrong for enjoying the game the way we do, GW supports and it we are here to stay for a while longer.

That is not my question. Answer the question. Do you honestly think TWC are going to stick around?

Yes. More important. When the time comes to make more money do you think GW will hesitate for a second to make unique units for its primary sellers? Do you think there won't be Primaris Sanguinery Guard? Primaris Dark Knights? Primaris Thunderwolves? Because eventually it will make enough financial sense to make all of those units. Then they will get made. Currently they are pushing out Marine Kits as fast as possible. They are making money hand over fist. Do the math. Follow the money.

And i'm not advocating to get rid of TWC and make them become Outriders, i'm trying to understand what exactly would be lost.
I'm personally of the opinion that the less datasheet, the better it is for the game's balance since you get less variables. Which means easier balancing.

Do you also advocate 1 sheet for Eldar Bikers (all varieties: Dark, Craftworld, Harlie, Exodite, etc), two sheets for Eldar specialists melee orientated and shooty orientated, etc etc? 1 sheets for Eldar troops, again fighty, and shooty? If you advocate for that as much as you advocate for Thunderwolves are the same as Outriders, I might actually believe you are not just posting another I HATES SPEES MAREENZ.

If not I suggest you pick up checkers.

Oh no. I ABSOLUTELY think they will release a set of outriders that are covered in wolfy incons and a bunch of furs. 100% they will sell you a new kit by a new name.

And as per the subject of the thread they should be consolidating that into a single datasheet but they won't.

I'm personally of the opinion that the less datasheet, the better it is for the game's balance since you get less variables. Which means easier balancing.

I know people get mad when I suggest this, because it is ridiculous. But if this is honestly the sentiment, the entire game can be boiled down to 5-7 datasheets... it would fix balancing problems and ect... its just feels like it would be a pretty boring game... I wouldnt play it.

I know people keeping going "you can't make an absurd claim like that, SW stuff is all the same as SM stuff anyways."
But we keeping pointing out time and time again, outside of the primaris line this is just objectively not true XD.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:
Oh no. I ABSOLUTELY think they will release a set of outriders that are covered in wolfy incons and a bunch of furs. 100% they will sell you a new kit by a new name.

And as per the subject of the thread they should be consolidating that into a single datasheet but they won't.

Depends on whether or not they want the SW version to be a different unique unit or if they want them to be vanilla primaris.
The new hounds feel fluffy and unque in terms of rules and gameplay to me, However, it was also 100% a lazy kit, 100% not needed for SWs and 100% the design space should have been given to another faction. Doesn't stop me from thinking that they would be neat to play because they are unique from the vanilla.

Also, there is also big difference between a wolfy upgrade kit for outriders and TWC vs outriders ...

 Lance845 wrote:

Do you honestly think TWC are going to stick around?

Yes (albeit possibly Primaris'd) and I think you're delusional if you believe that they're going to alienate the majority of the Space Wolf playerbase by squatting their iconic fluffy units.

Oh no. I ABSOLUTELY think they will release a set of outriders that are covered in wolfy incons and a bunch of furs. 100% they will sell you a new kit by a new name.

And as per the subject of the thread they should be consolidating that into a single datasheet but they won't.

Let me be clearer. In case you were trolling by mistake and not by design. I believe they will release unique units for all of the big Chapters. Not reskinned outriders or reivers as the case may be. If however you continue with the not very subtle insinuations I'll just put you on ignore as the troll you are.

It's not a troll. 100% I think GW will do just as I said. How many different kits are there that are just some kind of primaris with a different weapon sprue already?

H.B.M.C. wrote:Because people like their minis to mean something. They want there to be differences with the things they choose.

Awesome, can I have unique profiles for all my Marines because one has two purity seals, and one has a different helmet, and one has a scope on his bolter?

There's a limit to what something must mean.

BrianDavion wrote: Outriders have ZERO options.

Give Outriders more options then?

furthermore, the thunder hammer +stormshield isn;t a option for the sergant, it's an option the ENTIRE squad can take, because they are a mounted "veteran" unit.

Then have TWC use the "Veterans on Bikes" datasheet. Or a "Veteran Outriders" unit.

the differances are about as major as that between a SM bike and a fething ELDAR Bike.

Eldar aren't a subfaction of Space Marines which share the majority of the Codex in common.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Because people like their minis to mean something. They want there to be differences with the things they choose.

Awesome, can I have unique profiles for all my Marines because one has two purity seals, and one has a different helmet, and one has a scope on his bolter?

There's a limit to what something must mean.

BrianDavion wrote: Outriders have ZERO options.

Give Outriders more options then?

like in second edition.
But in all seriousness, they sold these models to us because they meant something, that's why we bought it, so we advocate that GW leaves it meaning something... GWs current approach is to do just that.

furthermore, the thunder hammer +stormshield isn;t a option for the sergant, it's an option the ENTIRE squad can take, because they are a mounted "veteran" unit.

Then have TWC use the "Veterans on Bikes" datasheet. Or a "Veteran Outriders" unit.

So generic SMs should get more options ? Why not just leave the SW datasheet TWC instead of making a new one for SMs that doesn't even represent the kit you are trying to represent with that datasheet ?
It seems like a lot of extra work for the designers and extra stuff to give the generic SMs (general marine bloat is the problem right ?) just to squat rules from an existing sub faction ?

the differances are about as major as that between a SM bike and a fething ELDAR Bike.

Eldar aren't a subfaction of Space Marines which share the majority of the Codex in common.

Eldar CAN be a subfaction of Space Marines in terms of rules ? What's stopping us from using marine rules ? the argument people have told me in terms of my SWs is that the fluff and representation is about how I paint, imagine and play them, not about what they can actually do ? if not these few kits, units and models, why not more, honestly ?
You are sugesting we represent a WOLF as a BIKE so why not an ELF as a MARINE. They can totally share the majority of the codex in common. Right after you change all there unique datasheets into clones of the marine codex datasheets. Just like you are proposing to do to the unique datasheets from the SWs ...

If what the actual model kit represents isn't the problem, the fact that the army already has unique rules, units, and models insnt the problem, then why not just take the next step and make eldar a clone of vanilla marines too. I know you think I am being absurd in saying this but you are asking me to represent WOLVES as BIKES and Warewolves as Sword Knights.

I want to say that it's the_scotsman who has said he's running Eldar using the SM 'dex, but I may be remembering the wrong user there.

 Dysartes wrote:
I want to say that it's the_scotsman who has said he's running Eldar using the SM 'dex, but I may be remembering the wrong user there.

Ya, someone mentioned that yesterday and honestly, I think that is so sad. Eldar 100% need attention given to them and to be worked on..

 Lance845 wrote:
It's not a troll. 100% I think GW will do just as I said. How many different kits are there that are just some kind of primaris with a different weapon sprue already?

proportionaly FAR less then the number of first born kits that are just space Marines with a differant weapons option.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
oh wait, CWE, Tau, and Tyranid minis don't get to mean something, or be different based on what they choose? Oh, okay.

Paint scheme.

Duh.

Is this just another weak attempt to whine about Marines?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Awesome, can I have unique profiles for all my Marines because one has two purity seals, and one has a different helmet, and one has a scope on his bolter?

There's a limit to what something must mean.

Can I have a limit to your exhausting hyperbole?