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The new Imperial Armour Compendium from gw features a new rule for space marine (both spikey and boring) units from the Horus Heresy: Martial Legacy. This rule adds an additional cost of 1CP to any unit with it. It applies to Contemptors, Leviathans, Sicarans, all of the legion super heavys, and more.

All of these units received nerfs. All the dreadnoughts are now WS/BS3 instead of WS/BS2. Loyalist Contemptors lost their 6+++, 2+, and rerolling 1s in cc if they have two cc weapons. Csm Contemptors lost their 4++ in cc and extra attack if they have two cc weapons. Leviathans went from T8 to T7, with loyalists losing their 4++. Many weapons are less effective. The legion super heavys are now T8 instead of T9.

Why charge an additional cost of 1CP on top of these changes? And why for only these units? No additional costs were added to Xenos or Custodes units. Why must someone pay an additional CP for a legion super heavy on top of the 3CP cost of the SHAD needed to field one when knights and other LOWs only require that initial 3CP to be included in an army? How does this improve the balance of the game?

Because the main GW rules team was mad FW got the praise for their rules even if they weren't the best, so what better way to show you've taken over that task than to listen to some people complain for the sake of complaining about the FW Dreads, despite the fact that nerfing them doesn't make the basic Dread a good option and will still never be taken compared to a Ven Dread, which will somehow be more experienced than the Relic dudes.

Also traits for CSM tied to the <Hellbrute> keyword which seems to have been lost`? So no traits for CSM dreads.

In terms of nerfs = Do the myriad of extra FW Marine Dreadnoughts get the Duty Eternal rule?

The rules team was likely told to make FW stuff just about playable but not better than Codex stuff.

 Mr Morden wrote:
In terms of nerfs = Do the myriad of extra FW Marine Dreadnoughts get the Duty Eternal rule?

The rules team was likely told to make FW stuff just about playable but not better than Codex stuff.

They do. Chaos dreads have -1D, too.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
In terms of nerfs = Do the myriad of extra FW Marine Dreadnoughts get the Duty Eternal rule?

The rules team was likely told to make FW stuff just about playable but not better than Codex stuff.

They do. Chaos dreads have -1D, too.

Yes, but why the additional cost of 1CP per unit? What does that offset? That ability is shared by codex dreadnoughts, what do the fw dreads offer over them that justifies the additional cost that isn't already paid for in their points when the other changes are considered? And why should a Fellblade, Falchion, or Spartan have that additional cost compared to a Wraithknight, Baneblade, IK/CK, klos, or any of the other myriad of LOWs, including the Eldar super heavy grav tanks, which got a considerable buff in the same book? Why does this rule only apply to resin marine LOWs that aren't named "Astreus"?

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
The new Imperial Armour Compendium from gw features a new rule for space marine (both spikey and boring) units from the Horus Heresy: Martial Legacy. This rule adds an additional cost of 1CP to any unit with it. It applies to Contemptors, Leviathans, Sicarans, all of the legion super heavys, and more.

All of these units received nerfs. All the dreadnoughts are now WS/BS3 instead of WS/BS2. Loyalist Contemptors lost their 6+++, 2+, and rerolling 1s in cc if they have two cc weapons. Csm Contemptors lost their 4++ in cc and extra attack if they have two cc weapons. Leviathans went from T8 to T7, with loyalists losing their 4++. Many weapons are less effective. The legion super heavys are now T8 instead of T9.

Why charge an additional cost of 1CP on top of these changes? And why for only these units? No additional costs were added to Xenos or Custodes units. Why must someone pay an additional CP for a legion super heavy on top of the 3CP cost of the SHAD needed to field one when knights and other LOWs only require that initial 3CP to be included in an army? How does this improve the balance of the game?

They're supposed to be insanely rare relics, you shouldn't be seeing 4 contemptors in a 40k list, chaos or loyal. People liked to take more than one so rather than put a hard and fast rule of only one like loyalists used to have, you can take as many as you have cp to pay for. I think it's fair, although I wish this rule was around back when the dreads were super busted. Not sure it's enough to make the dreads useless but definitely seems a little rough combined with nerfs the dreads got to their profiles.

That said contemptors and leviathans having bs2 was, well, BS to begin with. Good to see them at a regular 3+, especially since movement penalties to accuracy are gone.

Overall Dreads are probably in a better place with -1D and a 5++ than a 4++.

Conversion Beams no longer require you to stand still, went to D3 Blast, and will most often be S7 AP2 flat D3. It went from 165 points to 150 and lost having to worry about brackets. It has the same wounds as Eradicators, but on T7, 5++, and -1D.

I don't see a butcher cannon though. :(

Overall I feel more like putting conversion beamers on the table. I'm unsure if I'd want to pay the CP, but I think I can swing it. The Martial Legacy thing just seems like a rule they wanted, but they also wanted it to apply in a fluffy way so the "new" stuff like Astreus and Thunderhawk don't have a "legacy". I'm, not really too worried about those units not getting it. It more prevents spamming FW units.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
In terms of nerfs = Do the myriad of extra FW Marine Dreadnoughts get the Duty Eternal rule?

The rules team was likely told to make FW stuff just about playable but not better than Codex stuff.

They do. Chaos dreads have -1D, too.

Exept for the GK, GK were the one lucky faction that had their dread and one of the few FW units they had in general moved to legends.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
The new Imperial Armour Compendium from gw features a new rule for space marine (both spikey and boring) units from the Horus Heresy: Martial Legacy. This rule adds an additional cost of 1CP to any unit with it. It applies to Contemptors, Leviathans, Sicarans, all of the legion super heavys, and more.

All of these units received nerfs. All the dreadnoughts are now WS/BS3 instead of WS/BS2. Loyalist Contemptors lost their 6+++, 2+, and rerolling 1s in cc if they have two cc weapons. Csm Contemptors lost their 4++ in cc and extra attack if they have two cc weapons. Leviathans went from T8 to T7, with loyalists losing their 4++. Many weapons are less effective. The legion super heavys are now T8 instead of T9.

Why charge an additional cost of 1CP on top of these changes? And why for only these units? No additional costs were added to Xenos or Custodes units. Why must someone pay an additional CP for a legion super heavy on top of the 3CP cost of the SHAD needed to field one when knights and other LOWs only require that initial 3CP to be included in an army? How does this improve the balance of the game?

They're supposed to be insanely rare relics, you shouldn't be seeing 4 contemptors in a 40k list, chaos or loyal. People liked to take more than one so rather than put a hard and fast rule of only one like loyalists used to have, you can take as many as you have cp to pay for. I think it's fair, although I wish this rule was around back when the dreads were super busted. Not sure it's enough to make the dreads useless but definitely seems a little rough combined with nerfs the dreads got to their profiles.

That said contemptors and leviathans having bs2 was, well, BS to begin with. Good to see them at a regular 3+, especially since movement penalties to accuracy are gone.

Personally, I think something like a 0/1 or 0/2 etc. rule depending on the particular unit would have better represented their "relic" status.

I can understand many of the rules changes, but the nerfs to Contemptors with two cc weapons is galling, as it further disincentives the use of assault dreadnoughts. I hate dreadnoughts being used as walking artillery pieces.

Also I've heard this rule doesn't apply to the various fw Land Raiders, that seems, odd. Can anyone confirm that?

For Loyalists there was always some kind of restriction to the use of HH dreads, for CSM often, too. For this edition it's actually quite fitting to make it cost CP, while earlier they were tied to using other units or being limited to one.
I'm not saying I like that rule, but it seems to me it's rather a "translation" of a FW rule.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
The new Imperial Armour Compendium from gw features a new rule for space marine (both spikey and boring) units from the Horus Heresy: Martial Legacy. This rule adds an additional cost of 1CP to any unit with it. It applies to Contemptors, Leviathans, Sicarans, all of the legion super heavys, and more.

All of these units received nerfs. All the dreadnoughts are now WS/BS3 instead of WS/BS2. Loyalist Contemptors lost their 6+++, 2+, and rerolling 1s in cc if they have two cc weapons. Csm Contemptors lost their 4++ in cc and extra attack if they have two cc weapons. Leviathans went from T8 to T7, with loyalists losing their 4++. Many weapons are less effective. The legion super heavys are now T8 instead of T9.

Why charge an additional cost of 1CP on top of these changes? And why for only these units? No additional costs were added to Xenos or Custodes units. Why must someone pay an additional CP for a legion super heavy on top of the 3CP cost of the SHAD needed to field one when knights and other LOWs only require that initial 3CP to be included in an army? How does this improve the balance of the game?

Fluffwise:　rarity.

Real world　reason. Makes　sure those who buy stuff for　ingame rules buy plastic which gives bigger　profit margin than　resin(highly automated casting vs manual labour　intensive casting).

Your last question is based on flawed assumption that gw cares about balance. Their priorities are shifting　unbalance to ensure players have to buy new models　and plastic over　resin. Gw doesn'' want balance as that would mean　players　could just　play with existing models and be just as　competive as if he would buy new

tneva82 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
The new Imperial Armour Compendium from gw features a new rule for space marine (both spikey and boring) units from the Horus Heresy: Martial Legacy. This rule adds an additional cost of 1CP to any unit with it. It applies to Contemptors, Leviathans, Sicarans, all of the legion super heavys, and more.

All of these units received nerfs. All the dreadnoughts are now WS/BS3 instead of WS/BS2. Loyalist Contemptors lost their 6+++, 2+, and rerolling 1s in cc if they have two cc weapons. Csm Contemptors lost their 4++ in cc and extra attack if they have two cc weapons. Leviathans went from T8 to T7, with loyalists losing their 4++. Many weapons are less effective. The legion super heavys are now T8 instead of T9.

Why charge an additional cost of 1CP on top of these changes? And why for only these units? No additional costs were added to Xenos or Custodes units. Why must someone pay an additional CP for a legion super heavy on top of the 3CP cost of the SHAD needed to field one when knights and other LOWs only require that initial 3CP to be included in an army? How does this improve the balance of the game?

Fluffwise:　rarity.

Real world　reason. Makes　sure those who buy stuff for　ingame rules buy plastic which gives bigger　profit margin than　resin(highly automated casting vs manual labour　intensive casting).

Your last question is based on flawed assumption that gw cares about balance. Their priorities are shifting　unbalance to ensure players have to buy new models　and plastic over　resin. Gw doesn'' want balance as that would mean　players　could just　play with existing models and be just as　competive as if he would buy new

Right so are the Astreus, Achilles, Tempest, Thunderhawk, Vindicator Destroyer, all of XENOS excluded and more excluded? At the same time the Proteus and the Javelin do even though counterparts of theirs don't.


You made up a distinction (surprise) that has no basis in reality.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
The new Imperial Armour Compendium from gw features a new rule for space marine (both spikey and boring) units from the Horus Heresy: Martial Legacy. This rule adds an additional cost of 1CP to any unit with it. It applies to Contemptors, Leviathans, Sicarans, all of the legion super heavys, and more.

All of these units received nerfs. All the dreadnoughts are now WS/BS3 instead of WS/BS2. Loyalist Contemptors lost their 6+++, 2+, and rerolling 1s in cc if they have two cc weapons. Csm Contemptors lost their 4++ in cc and extra attack if they have two cc weapons. Leviathans went from T8 to T7, with loyalists losing their 4++. Many weapons are less effective. The legion super heavys are now T8 instead of T9.

Why charge an additional cost of 1CP on top of these changes? And why for only these units? No additional costs were added to Xenos or Custodes units. Why must someone pay an additional CP for a legion super heavy on top of the 3CP cost of the SHAD needed to field one when knights and other LOWs only require that initial 3CP to be included in an army? How does this improve the balance of the game?

WS3/BS3 = They're now brought back into line with everyone elses stuff.

Losing 6+++ = Brought back into line with everyone else.

4++ didnt get 'lost', so much as slightly reduced to a 5++ I believe. Again, back in line with others.


I notice you complain about all the nerfs, and the 1CP cost, and are like "nerfed plus CP cost, what a rip off", and totally ignored that they also got points reductions. The leviathan is now about 2/3 the cost that it used to be.

Forgeworld marines still have the best units, they're just no longer 150% better than the nearest xenos equivalent.

(As an aside though, the one thing I disagree with is the leviathan dropping to T7. However, as they also get the duty eternal baked in, they're still better than most alternatives, but fluffwise I think T8 was fitting).

Aside from the Martial Legacy rule, the Levi going to T7 is the only thing I don't like. Fluff wise being T8 was their purpose, like Ironclads

Niiru wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
The new Imperial Armour Compendium from gw features a new rule for space marine (both spikey and boring) units from the Horus Heresy: Martial Legacy. This rule adds an additional cost of 1CP to any unit with it. It applies to Contemptors, Leviathans, Sicarans, all of the legion super heavys, and more.

All of these units received nerfs. All the dreadnoughts are now WS/BS3 instead of WS/BS2. Loyalist Contemptors lost their 6+++, 2+, and rerolling 1s in cc if they have two cc weapons. Csm Contemptors lost their 4++ in cc and extra attack if they have two cc weapons. Leviathans went from T8 to T7, with loyalists losing their 4++. Many weapons are less effective. The legion super heavys are now T8 instead of T9.

Why charge an additional cost of 1CP on top of these changes? And why for only these units? No additional costs were added to Xenos or Custodes units. Why must someone pay an additional CP for a legion super heavy on top of the 3CP cost of the SHAD needed to field one when knights and other LOWs only require that initial 3CP to be included in an army? How does this improve the balance of the game?

WS3/BS3 = They're now brought back into line with everyone elses stuff.

Losing 6+++ = Brought back into line with everyone else.

4++ didnt get 'lost', so much as slightly reduced to a 5++ I believe. Again, back in line with others.


I notice you complain about all the nerfs, and the 1CP cost, and are like "nerfed plus CP cost, what a rip off", and totally ignored that they also got points reductions. The leviathan is now about 2/3 the cost that it used to be.

Forgeworld marines still have the best units, they're just no longer 150% better than the nearest xenos equivalent.

(As an aside though, the one thing I disagree with is the leviathan dropping to T7. However, as they also get the duty eternal baked in, they're still better than most alternatives, but fluffwise I think T8 was fitting).

I can understand the nerfs, or the CP costs, it's both at the same time that's aggravating. Eldar Scorpions went from 710 to 550 PPM, Fellblades went from 880 to 600 PPM+1CP. Fellblade is now T8 2+ 26W. Scorpion is T8 3+ 5++ 26W (I admit this could be wrong as its based on squinting at a screen). Why don't they pay 1CP? Why is this just a rule for certain marine units? Why not the Astreus? Or the fw Land Raiders?

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
The new Imperial Armour Compendium from gw features a new rule for space marine (both spikey and boring) units from the Horus Heresy: Martial Legacy. This rule adds an additional cost of 1CP to any unit with it. It applies to Contemptors, Leviathans, Sicarans, all of the legion super heavys, and more.

All of these units received nerfs. All the dreadnoughts are now WS/BS3 instead of WS/BS2. Loyalist Contemptors lost their 6+++, 2+, and rerolling 1s in cc if they have two cc weapons. Csm Contemptors lost their 4++ in cc and extra attack if they have two cc weapons. Leviathans went from T8 to T7, with loyalists losing their 4++. Many weapons are less effective. The legion super heavys are now T8 instead of T9.

Why charge an additional cost of 1CP on top of these changes? And why for only these units? No additional costs were added to Xenos or Custodes units. Why must someone pay an additional CP for a legion super heavy on top of the 3CP cost of the SHAD needed to field one when knights and other LOWs only require that initial 3CP to be included in an army? How does this improve the balance of the game?

They're supposed to be insanely rare relics, you shouldn't be seeing 4 contemptors in a 40k list, chaos or loyal. People liked to take more than one so rather than put a hard and fast rule of only one like loyalists used to have, you can take as many as you have cp to pay for. I think it's fair, although I wish this rule was around back when the dreads were super busted. Not sure it's enough to make the dreads useless but definitely seems a little rough combined with nerfs the dreads got to their profiles.

That said contemptors and leviathans having bs2 was, well, BS to begin with. Good to see them at a regular 3+, especially since movement penalties to accuracy are gone.

Personally, I think something like a 0/1 or 0/2 etc. rule depending on the particular unit would have better represented their "relic" status.

I can understand many of the rules changes, but the nerfs to Contemptors with two cc weapons is galling, as it further disincentives the use of assault dreadnoughts. I hate dreadnoughts being used as walking artillery pieces.

Also I've heard this rule doesn't apply to the various fw Land Raiders, that seems, odd. Can anyone confirm that?

But if they limit them ton1 or 2 per army, then there is no chance of someone buying more than 1 or 2 of them. If they put a CP tax on them there is a vague possibility that people that really like the models will still buy more of them.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Niiru wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
The new Imperial Armour Compendium from gw features a new rule for space marine (both spikey and boring) units from the Horus Heresy: Martial Legacy. This rule adds an additional cost of 1CP to any unit with it. It applies to Contemptors, Leviathans, Sicarans, all of the legion super heavys, and more.

All of these units received nerfs. All the dreadnoughts are now WS/BS3 instead of WS/BS2. Loyalist Contemptors lost their 6+++, 2+, and rerolling 1s in cc if they have two cc weapons. Csm Contemptors lost their 4++ in cc and extra attack if they have two cc weapons. Leviathans went from T8 to T7, with loyalists losing their 4++. Many weapons are less effective. The legion super heavys are now T8 instead of T9.

Why charge an additional cost of 1CP on top of these changes? And why for only these units? No additional costs were added to Xenos or Custodes units. Why must someone pay an additional CP for a legion super heavy on top of the 3CP cost of the SHAD needed to field one when knights and other LOWs only require that initial 3CP to be included in an army? How does this improve the balance of the game?

WS3/BS3 = They're now brought back into line with everyone elses stuff.

Losing 6+++ = Brought back into line with everyone else.

4++ didnt get 'lost', so much as slightly reduced to a 5++ I believe. Again, back in line with others.


I notice you complain about all the nerfs, and the 1CP cost, and are like "nerfed plus CP cost, what a rip off", and totally ignored that they also got points reductions. The leviathan is now about 2/3 the cost that it used to be.

Forgeworld marines still have the best units, they're just no longer 150% better than the nearest xenos equivalent.

(As an aside though, the one thing I disagree with is the leviathan dropping to T7. However, as they also get the duty eternal baked in, they're still better than most alternatives, but fluffwise I think T8 was fitting).

I can understand the nerfs, or the CP costs, it's both at the same time that's aggravating. Eldar Scorpions went from 710 to 550 PPM, Fellblades went from 880 to 600 PPM+1CP. Fellblade is now T8 2+ 26W. Scorpion is T8 3+ 5++ 26W (I admit this could be wrong as its based on squinting at a screen). Why don't they pay 1CP? Why is this just a rule for certain marine units? Why not the Astreus? Or the fw Land Raiders?

With the points drops, even with the 1CP cost I think Leviathans are still very playable. (contemptors maybe not, but you still have contemptors in the main codex anyway so that's probably why).

Scorpions, even with the points drops and without the 1CP cost, are still never going to see a tabletop. They haven't ever been good enough to actually get played, and this doesn't change anything.

Which is probably the difference. The marine units are actually good enough to get played (and they used to be played A LOT).

Niiru wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Niiru wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
The new Imperial Armour Compendium from gw features a new rule for space marine (both spikey and boring) units from the Horus Heresy: Martial Legacy. This rule adds an additional cost of 1CP to any unit with it. It applies to Contemptors, Leviathans, Sicarans, all of the legion super heavys, and more.

All of these units received nerfs. All the dreadnoughts are now WS/BS3 instead of WS/BS2. Loyalist Contemptors lost their 6+++, 2+, and rerolling 1s in cc if they have two cc weapons. Csm Contemptors lost their 4++ in cc and extra attack if they have two cc weapons. Leviathans went from T8 to T7, with loyalists losing their 4++. Many weapons are less effective. The legion super heavys are now T8 instead of T9.

Why charge an additional cost of 1CP on top of these changes? And why for only these units? No additional costs were added to Xenos or Custodes units. Why must someone pay an additional CP for a legion super heavy on top of the 3CP cost of the SHAD needed to field one when knights and other LOWs only require that initial 3CP to be included in an army? How does this improve the balance of the game?

WS3/BS3 = They're now brought back into line with everyone elses stuff.

Losing 6+++ = Brought back into line with everyone else.

4++ didnt get 'lost', so much as slightly reduced to a 5++ I believe. Again, back in line with others.


I notice you complain about all the nerfs, and the 1CP cost, and are like "nerfed plus CP cost, what a rip off", and totally ignored that they also got points reductions. The leviathan is now about 2/3 the cost that it used to be.

Forgeworld marines still have the best units, they're just no longer 150% better than the nearest xenos equivalent.

(As an aside though, the one thing I disagree with is the leviathan dropping to T7. However, as they also get the duty eternal baked in, they're still better than most alternatives, but fluffwise I think T8 was fitting).

I can understand the nerfs, or the CP costs, it's both at the same time that's aggravating. Eldar Scorpions went from 710 to 550 PPM, Fellblades went from 880 to 600 PPM+1CP. Fellblade is now T8 2+ 26W. Scorpion is T8 3+ 5++ 26W (I admit this could be wrong as its based on squinting at a screen). Why don't they pay 1CP? Why is this just a rule for certain marine units? Why not the Astreus? Or the fw Land Raiders?

With the points drops, even with the 1CP cost I think Leviathans are still very playable. (contemptors maybe not, but you still have contemptors in the main codex anyway so that's probably why).

Scorpions, even with the points drops and without the 1CP cost, are still never going to see a tabletop. They haven't ever been good enough to actually get played, and this doesn't change anything.

Which is probably the difference. The marine units are actually good enough to get played (and they used to be played A LOT).

Sorry, you apparently think I play Loyalist Scum, I don't, I play csm, Night Lords to be exact. And we don't have Contemptors in our codex. We have hellbrutes, that's it for our codex dreadnoughts. And I play my Night Lords to their fluff, that means no daemons, ie., no daemon engines. So without fw I'm left with predators, rhinos, Land Raiders, and Vindicators. Nothing against those, but gw hasn't exactly been kind to any of them recently, they want csm to run daemon engines. So most of my vehicles are fw, so this rule hurts.

And I wasn't comparing the Scorpion to dreadnoughts, I was comparing it to my Fellblade, how often do you see those get played? I'm betting it was never "A LOT". Any LOW will currently cost you 3CP just for the SHAD, adding another CP is just piling on for no reason, especially when loyalists don't have to pay that for an Astreus.

Niiru wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
The new Imperial Armour Compendium from gw features a new rule for space marine (both spikey and boring) units from the Horus Heresy: Martial Legacy. This rule adds an additional cost of 1CP to any unit with it. It applies to Contemptors, Leviathans, Sicarans, all of the legion super heavys, and more.

All of these units received nerfs. All the dreadnoughts are now WS/BS3 instead of WS/BS2. Loyalist Contemptors lost their 6+++, 2+, and rerolling 1s in cc if they have two cc weapons. Csm Contemptors lost their 4++ in cc and extra attack if they have two cc weapons. Leviathans went from T8 to T7, with loyalists losing their 4++. Many weapons are less effective. The legion super heavys are now T8 instead of T9.

Why charge an additional cost of 1CP on top of these changes? And why for only these units? No additional costs were added to Xenos or Custodes units. Why must someone pay an additional CP for a legion super heavy on top of the 3CP cost of the SHAD needed to field one when knights and other LOWs only require that initial 3CP to be included in an army? How does this improve the balance of the game?

WS3/BS3 = They're now brought back into line with everyone elses stuff.

Losing 6+++ = Brought back into line with everyone else.

4++ didnt get 'lost', so much as slightly reduced to a 5++ I believe. Again, back in line with others.


I notice you complain about all the nerfs, and the 1CP cost, and are like "nerfed plus CP cost, what a rip off", and totally ignored that they also got points reductions. The leviathan is now about 2/3 the cost that it used to be.

Forgeworld marines still have the best units, they're just no longer 150% better than the nearest xenos equivalent.

(As an aside though, the one thing I disagree with is the leviathan dropping to T7. However, as they also get the duty eternal baked in, they're still better than most alternatives, but fluffwise I think T8 was fitting).

Everything is back in line except with VenDreads who get all those benefits of a 6+++ and WS/BS2+. For reasons of course.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

They're supposed to be insanely rare relics, you shouldn't be seeing 4 contemptors in a 40k list, chaos or loyal. People liked to take more than one so rather than put a hard and fast rule of only one like loyalists used to have, you can take as many as you have cp to pay for.

Yet you can have multiple units of relic Terminators led by the multiple masters of the Chapter without having any additional CP cost, because they're obviously not rare at all...

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
...They're supposed to be insanely rare relics, you shouldn't be seeing 4 contemptors in a 40k list, chaos or loyal. People liked to take more than one so rather than put a hard and fast rule of only one like loyalists used to have, you can take as many as you have cp to pay for...

You don't have to pay CP to field named characters, and by definition they're much rarer than Contemptor Dreadnaughts.

You have to pay CP to field more than one relic though.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
...They're supposed to be insanely rare relics, you shouldn't be seeing 4 contemptors in a 40k list, chaos or loyal. People liked to take more than one so rather than put a hard and fast rule of only one like loyalists used to have, you can take as many as you have cp to pay for...

You don't have to pay CP to field named characters, and by definition they're much rarer than Contemptor Dreadnaughts.

But you can only have one of each, so they ain’t spammable.

It’s a solution whether you like it or not is up to you, but it’s the solution GW have chosen. Tbh I much prefer it to having to take another unit and have a points tax. A few CP is easy doable.

For loyalists, sure, most of your units work just fine without strategems, but not so much for csm. Most of our units require CP just to work, and even much of a legions identity is locked behind strategems. As always everyone looks at this through the loyalist lens, this isn't that big of a hit for them, but it's a big one for csm. We don't even have the roster of options in our codex to replace these units like loyalists do.

Can anyone give me an idea of the pts cost for a deathclaw heavy bolter hf contemptor? And a twin bc array Hf levi? Thanks


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'll add that contemptors were barely cutting the mustard this edition from my time with them. They've fallen pretty far. Hope pts and duty eternal restores them.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
For loyalists, sure, most of your units work just fine without strategems, but not so much for csm. Most of our units require CP just to work, and even much of a legions identity is locked behind strategems. As always everyone looks at this through the loyalist lens, this isn't that big of a hit for them, but it's a big one for csm. We don't even have the roster of options in our codex to replace these units like loyalists do.

Yeah, CSM get only one non-FW dreadnought.
LSM get : Vendread, Ironclad, contemptor, redemptor, boxnaught.

It won't change much for my lists but it sucks to have to pay a tax if we want to run more than just 3 helbrutes.

The downside of dreads being nerfed is smaller than the upside of what they did to our dreadclaw and drill. Finally being able to play my night lords as a shock army is gonna be super fun.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
The new Imperial Armour Compendium from gw features a new rule for space marine (both spikey and boring) units from the Horus Heresy: Martial Legacy. This rule adds an additional cost of 1CP to any unit with it. It applies to Contemptors, Leviathans, Sicarans, all of the legion super heavys, and more.

All of these units received nerfs. All the dreadnoughts are now WS/BS3 instead of WS/BS2. Loyalist Contemptors lost their 6+++, 2+, and rerolling 1s in cc if they have two cc weapons. Csm Contemptors lost their 4++ in cc and extra attack if they have two cc weapons. Leviathans went from T8 to T7, with loyalists losing their 4++. Many weapons are less effective. The legion super heavys are now T8 instead of T9.

Why charge an additional cost of 1CP on top of these changes? And why for only these units? No additional costs were added to Xenos or Custodes units. Why must someone pay an additional CP for a legion super heavy on top of the 3CP cost of the SHAD needed to field one when knights and other LOWs only require that initial 3CP to be included in an army? How does this improve the balance of the game?

In essence, it's a new category of "Almost super-heavy but not quite", so instead of 3 CP to take up to 3, you pay 1 CP each.

But it also doesn't cost you one of your detachment slots, so, taking the assorted Martial Legacy stuff is a bit better than a Lord of War, but also not as impactful.

Sounds like a good balance to me.

VladimirHerzog wrote:Yeah, CSM get only one non-FW dreadnought.
LSM get : Vendread, Ironclad, contemptor, redemptor, boxnaught.

It won't change much for my lists but it sucks to have to pay a tax if we want to run more than just 3 helbrutes.

The downside of dreads being nerfed is smaller than the upside of what they did to our dreadclaw and drill. Finally being able to play my night lords as a shock army is gonna be super fun.

Yes, it will be, but one of the most fun things I ever did with a Dreadclaw was using one to drop my Contemptor right into my opponent's face, now his second chainclaw is just for looks. When gw swings their pendulum, they swing it hard.

Wakshaani wrote:
In essence, it's a new category of "Almost super-heavy but not quite", so instead of 3 CP to take up to 3, you pay 1 CP each.

But it also doesn't cost you one of your detachment slots, so, taking the assorted Martial Legacy stuff is a bit better than a Lord of War, but also not as impactful.

Sounds like a good balance to me.

They take up detachment slots just like any other unit. And what about the LOWs that now cost 4CP instead of 3?

The really LOL bits are that TS (and DW, except for the greater plague drone) now can't take any FW units at all because they screwed up the keywords. And that the Telemon remained completely unnerfed and even got the -1D built in, while every other dread got smacked hard.

Rather than the 1CP cost, they ought to have just been only one per detachment IMO (and therefore not on the super-heavies at all, obviously), that does a better job of limiting how many you see on the field anyway.