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And csm have more then the chapters so IT still doesn't make sense for CSM getting penalised, especially double because CSM dreads don't even get traits anymore aswell, thanks to GW fething up.

IMHO CSMs shouldn;'t have heresy era stuff nesscarily.. BUT... they should instead have chaoticly mutated vehicles and the like that are obviously "descended" from those units. The Hellbrute is IMHO not a bad example of where chaos should be taken. the weapons of yesterday developing new and startling capabilities as the warp works on it

BrianDavion wrote:
IMHO CSMs shouldn;'t have heresy era stuff nesscarily.. BUT... they should instead have chaoticly mutated vehicles and the like that are obviously "descended" from those units. The Hellbrute is IMHO not a bad example of where chaos should be taken. the weapons of yesterday developing new and startling capabilities as the warp works on it

and this is were IW, AL, NL players are allready stating no. As is any renegade player.....

and frankly the hellbrute is fugly and not in a good type of way.

Not Online!!! wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
IMHO CSMs shouldn;'t have heresy era stuff nesscarily.. BUT... they should instead have chaoticly mutated vehicles and the like that are obviously "descended" from those units. The Hellbrute is IMHO not a bad example of where chaos should be taken. the weapons of yesterday developing new and startling capabilities as the warp works on it

and this is were IW, AL, NL players are allready stating no. As is any renegade player.....

and frankly the hellbrute is fugly and not in a good type of way.

Well said. Tons of mutated vehicles don't make sense for those legions, and gw knows it. In both of the books that actually gave the Legions actual rules, 3.5 and Traitor Legions, they were expressly forbidden from taking marks except for Undivided. Iron Warriors are known to chop off limbs if they show signs of mutation, and Night Lords are described as not worshipping the Chaos Gods, not seeing them as gods, and seeing anyone who worships them or The Corpse Emperor as fools. Maybe those Legions will get a rule that lets them ignore the Martial Legacy rule, but I doubt it. This is just more homogenization of The Legions.

IMHO CSMs shouldn;'t have heresy era stuff nesscarily.. BUT... they should instead have chaoticly mutated vehicles and the like that are obviously "descended" from those units. The Hellbrute is IMHO not a bad example of where chaos should be taken. the weapons of yesterday developing new and startling capabilities as the warp works on it

Yeah - that just doesn't make sense as a blanket statement. There are plenty of factions that don't worship Chaos, and have maintained a relatively un-mutated force. Sure, SOME armies will have what you mention, but the simple fact is, Chaos should be MORE diverse than the loyalists - and yet, they are not. Loyalists have what? half a dozen special snowflake chapters, some of which only have a few unit and a few rules to differentiate them .... "Oh! These ones are different because they're BLUE you see. So .... new codex ...". Plus - your example of Helbrute is perfect. As an example of everything that's currently wrong w/CSM. If loyalists dreads got that same treatment you'd be up in arms. CSM got a new kit - but no "startling new abilities" that made any of it worth it. The loyalist version is better in every way. So if your idea is "CSM should have exactly what loyalists have, only worse, and with more spikes and tentacles", congrats. You have passed the entrance exam for the GW rules team!

Iron Warriors in particular, one of the most popular factions on the Chaos side, are known for maintaining their Heresy Era equipment while ALSO having Demon Engines. Night Lords don't worship Chaos at all, don't use demons, and don't tend to run demon engines. It's always interesting when anyone comes in and says "Chaos should essentially just be this one thing". Those people, at the fundamental level, don't really understand it.

also the whole chaosification, yeah GW also did fail particulary with the helldrake and the daemonengines....

and the funny thing is FW would've had an aesthetique that works for even NON mutated CSM, via the decimator and hellblade/ Talon which fit for basically ALL CSM subfactions comparatively to the hellbrute which screams WB / Mutated / BL.

Not Online!!! wrote:
also the whole chaosification, yeah GW also did fail particulary with the helldrake and the daemonengines....

and the funny thing is FW would've had an aesthetique that works for even NON mutated CSM, via the decimator and hellblade/ Talon which fit for basically ALL CSM subfactions comparatively to the hellbrute which screams WB / Mutated / BL.

The fact that the Hellblade and Decimator have never went to plastic confounds me. Both are better models than the dinobots and hellbrute, admittedly imo, and better fits for all the Legions. Same for Dreadclaws, that would be a super easy kit to do in plastic. The fw kit is literally just a drop pod with some conversion parts.

The Hellblade in particular confounds me. It's a cool model, it's perfect for CSM and provides a great alternative to anyone not interested in dragons. Why on earth has that not been ported over?

yeah, even though my Night Lords are blessed by slaanesh (but dont worship it), they still try and stick with legion-era tech as much as possible.

I own a helblade since i feel it was already quite good in 8th (6 -2 3 was such a good profile against marines) and honestly its one of the most straightforward model i could see being converted to plastic.

What i'm most sad at the moment is the loss of the Hellforged predator, i'm glad i waited for the book to come out before getting one. I have a feeling (ok, hope really) that the codex might give us an equivalent but in plastic.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
yeah, even though my Night Lords are blessed by slaanesh (but dont worship it), they still try and stick with legion-era tech as much as possible.

I own a helblade since i feel it was already quite good in 8th (6 -2 3 was such a good profile against marines) and honestly its one of the most straightforward model i could see being converted to plastic.

What i'm most sad at the moment is the loss of the Hellforged predator, i'm glad i waited for the book to come out before getting one. I have a feeling (ok, hope really) that the codex might give us an equivalent but in plastic.

New rules, and possibly a model for Predators? Good luck. Expect a new daemon engine, this time modeled on a cockroach or something.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
yeah, even though my Night Lords are blessed by slaanesh (but dont worship it), they still try and stick with legion-era tech as much as possible.

I own a helblade since i feel it was already quite good in 8th (6 -2 3 was such a good profile against marines) and honestly its one of the most straightforward model i could see being converted to plastic.

What i'm most sad at the moment is the loss of the Hellforged predator, i'm glad i waited for the book to come out before getting one. I have a feeling (ok, hope really) that the codex might give us an equivalent but in plastic.

New rules, and possibly a model for Predators? Good luck. Expect a new daemon engine, this time modeled on a cockroach or something.

If daemonengines could we please have plastic decimators and more importantly the hellstalker the Lord discordant sits on without him?

Anything that makes marines less powerful is a good rule. Chaos marines will, for now, be an unfortunate casualty, but as soon as they get their inevitable coconuts statline boosts for basically no points they'll be in exactly the same boat as loyalists.

What? When has this ever happened for CSM? With a few rare exceptions they're pretty much universally worse than their loyalist counterparts. They've never received a "coconuts statline boost for zero points" pretty much ever. lol

What alternate universe are you playing in that this is a thing for CSM? Because I want in!

Tycho wrote:

Anything that makes marines less powerful is a good rule. Chaos marines will, for now, be an unfortunate casualty, but as soon as they get their inevitable coconuts statline boosts for basically no points they'll be in exactly the same boat as loyalists.

What? When has this ever happened for CSM? With a few rare exceptions they're pretty much universally worse than their loyalist counterparts. They've never received a "coconuts statline boost for zero points" pretty much ever. lol

What alternate universe are you playing in that this is a thing for CSM? Because I want in!

lash prince with 3x3 obliterators probably....
fun times to be had

and even that broken gak got hold back with the gakky state csm were in to medicore soooo, yeah.

Yeah, GW sure does like the dinobots, which is a real shame since I feel they're just so literal.

As kind of awkward as the Defiler is (honestly hasn't aged well and wasn't the best to begin with), conceptually a vehicle with a demon bound to it seems so much more natural than the over the top demon stuff that all seems to come from the lineage of the old Juggernaut.

I think FW speaks to me for chaos because of the brooding ancient evil of corrupted relics that are so close to a mirror of the Imperium's so-called martial paragons and the failures of its Utopian history. Similarly, the chaos gods are similarly interesting (to me) because they reflect and corrupt us yet also offer a way (temptation?) out of the tyranny of the imperium, not because they allow you to summon armored hell dinosaurs.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
yeah, even though my Night Lords are blessed by slaanesh (but dont worship it), they still try and stick with legion-era tech as much as possible.

I own a helblade since i feel it was already quite good in 8th (6 -2 3 was such a good profile against marines) and honestly its one of the most straightforward model i could see being converted to plastic.

What i'm most sad at the moment is the loss of the Hellforged predator, i'm glad i waited for the book to come out before getting one. I have a feeling (ok, hope really) that the codex might give us an equivalent but in plastic.

New rules, and possibly a model for Predators? Good luck. Expect a new daemon engine, this time modeled on a cockroach or something.

If daemonengines could we please have plastic decimators and more importantly the hellstalker the Lord discordant sits on without him?

I seriously doubt we'll be getting plastic decimators due to their inclusion in the Compendium, but the disco Lords mount without him sounds like an easy kit. Personally, though I feel it unlikely, adding more options to our existing non-daemonic vehicles like Vladimir suggests would be great. I think we're in agreement on how great the Hades AC would be on a Predator or maybe on a Land Raider, yes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Yeah, GW sure does like the dinobots, which is a real shame since I feel they're just so literal.

As kind of awkward as the Defiler is (honestly hasn't aged well and wasn't the best to begin with), conceptually a vehicle with a demon bound to it seems so much more natural than the over the top demon stuff that all seems to come from the lineage of the old Juggernaut.

I think FW speaks to me for chaos because of the brooding ancient evil of corrupted relics that are so close to a mirror of the Imperium's so-called martial paragons and the failures of its Utopian history. Similarly, the chaos gods are similarly interesting (to me) because they reflect and corrupt us yet also offer a way (temptation?) out of the tyranny of the imperium, not because they allow you to summon armored hell dinosaurs.

Big agreement, especially for the last paragraph.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

I seriously doubt we'll be getting plastic decimators due to their inclusion in the Compendium, but the disco Lords mount without him sounds like an easy kit. Personally, though I feel it unlikely, adding more options to our existing non-daemonic vehicles like Vladimir suggests would be great. I think we're in agreement on how great the Hades AC would be on a Predator or maybe on a Land Raider, yes?

It just seems so strange to me that the Predator of all thing would get removed from our options. I don't really see FW stop production on the most iconic model for space marines in general.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

I seriously doubt we'll be getting plastic decimators due to their inclusion in the Compendium, but the disco Lords mount without him sounds like an easy kit. Personally, though I feel it unlikely, adding more options to our existing non-daemonic vehicles like Vladimir suggests would be great. I think we're in agreement on how great the Hades AC would be on a Predator or maybe on a Land Raider, yes?

It just seems so strange to me that the Predator of all thing would get removed from our options. I don't really see FW stop production on the most iconic model for space marines in general.

I agree it's odd, but Zhufor is gone too, and they still make him, as is the command super heavy tank for the guard (sorry, forget the name right now) and they still sell that as well. Hopefully they'll be back in some form, hopefully in the codex, as you suggested. Those plasma cannons really set Predators off, imo (though I love painting anything plasma).

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

I seriously doubt we'll be getting plastic decimators due to their inclusion in the Compendium, but the disco Lords mount without him sounds like an easy kit. Personally, though I feel it unlikely, adding more options to our existing non-daemonic vehicles like Vladimir suggests would be great. I think we're in agreement on how great the Hades AC would be on a Predator or maybe on a Land Raider, yes?

It just seems so strange to me that the Predator of all thing would get removed from our options. I don't really see FW stop production on the most iconic model for space marines in general.

I agree it's odd, but Zhufor is gone too, and they still make him, as is the command super heavy tank for the guard (sorry, forget the name right now) and they still sell that as well. Hopefully they'll be back in some form, hopefully in the codex, as you suggested. Those plasma cannons really set Predators off, imo (though I love painting anything plasma).

You can't really do a Counts As super well for him either since he's got the Combi-Bolter, the Axe, AND the Fist.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

I seriously doubt we'll be getting plastic decimators due to their inclusion in the Compendium, but the disco Lords mount without him sounds like an easy kit. Personally, though I feel it unlikely, adding more options to our existing non-daemonic vehicles like Vladimir suggests would be great. I think we're in agreement on how great the Hades AC would be on a Predator or maybe on a Land Raider, yes?

It just seems so strange to me that the Predator of all thing would get removed from our options. I don't really see FW stop production on the most iconic model for space marines in general.

I agree it's odd, but Zhufor is gone too, and they still make him, as is the command super heavy tank for the guard (sorry, forget the name right now) and they still sell that as well. Hopefully they'll be back in some form, hopefully in the codex, as you suggested. Those plasma cannons really set Predators off, imo (though I love painting anything plasma).

You can't really do a Counts As super well for him either since he's got the Combi-Bolter, the Axe, AND the Fist.

you could do this like the plague marines do and stick the combi on the bacpack?

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

I seriously doubt we'll be getting plastic decimators due to their inclusion in the Compendium, but the disco Lords mount without him sounds like an easy kit. Personally, though I feel it unlikely, adding more options to our existing non-daemonic vehicles like Vladimir suggests would be great. I think we're in agreement on how great the Hades AC would be on a Predator or maybe on a Land Raider, yes?

It just seems so strange to me that the Predator of all thing would get removed from our options. I don't really see FW stop production on the most iconic model for space marines in general.

I agree it's odd, but Zhufor is gone too, and they still make him, as is the command super heavy tank for the guard (sorry, forget the name right now) and they still sell that as well. Hopefully they'll be back in some form, hopefully in the codex, as you suggested. Those plasma cannons really set Predators off, imo (though I love painting anything plasma).

You can't really do a Counts As super well for him either since he's got the Combi-Bolter, the Axe, AND the Fist.

you could do this like the plague marines do and stick the combi on the bacpack?

I mean I guess. It's weird for a model to have a shooting weapon though and, well, not shoot it. If he didn't make the cut I'm guessing Necrosis or whatever didn't make it either.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

I seriously doubt we'll be getting plastic decimators due to their inclusion in the Compendium, but the disco Lords mount without him sounds like an easy kit. Personally, though I feel it unlikely, adding more options to our existing non-daemonic vehicles like Vladimir suggests would be great. I think we're in agreement on how great the Hades AC would be on a Predator or maybe on a Land Raider, yes?

It just seems so strange to me that the Predator of all thing would get removed from our options. I don't really see FW stop production on the most iconic model for space marines in general.

I agree it's odd, but Zhufor is gone too, and they still make him, as is the command super heavy tank for the guard (sorry, forget the name right now) and they still sell that as well. Hopefully they'll be back in some form, hopefully in the codex, as you suggested. Those plasma cannons really set Predators off, imo (though I love painting anything plasma).

You can't really do a Counts As super well for him either since he's got the Combi-Bolter, the Axe, AND the Fist.

you could do this like the plague marines do and stick the combi on the bacpack?

Zhufor's Combi-bolter is built into the back of his fist ala the Talon of Horus.

I feel like I'd be OK with the Martial legacy rule if it didn't include contemptors. Loyalists have a codex option but csm do not and the helbrute is pretty bad leaving contemptors collecting dust for now.

At least the sicaran looks decent enough to field but now competes with a deredeo and cp are tight. Ugh