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Are they just an example of GW having their cake and eating it with imperial armies.

I don’t know in what edition the became a full chapter. The idea of a combined special opps TEAM makes sense but a chapter made of the the best of the best is like an army made of special forces.

Now I think about it I just feel like it’s another lenses to look through at space marines and call the the universes finest warriors.

Or is it there are so many chapters I want to pay them all. It I can’t so I’ll make a special chapter with all of them in it?

Same problem I have with inquisitors having xenos tech and helpers, but that was a different thread

I see we've arrived at "I dont like this army, therefore it shouldn't exist"-o'clock again.

Deleted, changed my mind

The Nights Watch in space....why is that a bad idea?
There is design space for them so lets just leave it be. At least now they are a supplement and not a separate army.

Inherently they aren't a force that should ever be an "army".

Deathwatch have always been about squad based kill teams hunting xenos, although that perception has changed somewhat since they got their own codex.

GW do what they do though, contradicting fluff be damned.

DW are awful. They are GW saying "marines aren't Mary Sue enough. We need even Sueier Sues!"

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
Inherently they aren't a force that should ever be an "army".

Deathwatch have always been about squad based kill teams hunting xenos, although that perception has changed somewhat since they got their own codex.

GW do what they do though, contradicting fluff be damned.

I dunno, I think the number of models represented in a typical deathwatch army are perfectly reasonable as a small, elite strike force. Usually, I field about 30 bodies.

I'm fine with Deathwatch existing in the lore/on the tabletop. They combine the technobarbarian aspects of the imperium, using barely-understood xenos artifacts and looted weaponry, with a sort of dirty dozen style 'diverse specialists' setup.

That checks enough boxes in my eyes for them to be meaningfully distinct from other marine armies to have a legitimate claim to design space, if a small one.

And they do have a very small one. Remember that they have 4 kits, one of which is a repackaged monopose from a board game box release, and other than that they're basically like any other chapter.

You might as well ask "Should Salamanders/Raven Guard/Ultramarines/Etc exist". They have fewer unique units than Ultramarines.

They're fine as a mini-faction like Inquisition, Harlequins, Knights, etc.


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SecondTime wrote:
DW are awful. They are GW saying "marines aren't Mary Sue enough. We need even Sueier Sues!"

Your'e like 5 layers of Marine Sue behind at this point if you're whining about DW. Get in line behind GK, Primaris, and Custodes.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
Inherently they aren't a force that should ever be an "army".

Deathwatch have always been about squad based kill teams hunting xenos, although that perception has changed somewhat since they got their own codex.

GW do what they do though, contradicting fluff be damned.

I dunno, I think the number of models represented in a typical deathwatch army are perfectly reasonable as a small, elite strike force. Usually, I field about 30 bodies.

I'm fine with Deathwatch existing in the lore/on the tabletop. They combine the technobarbarian aspects of the imperium, using barely-understood xenos artifacts and looted weaponry, with a sort of dirty dozen style 'diverse specialists' setup.

That checks enough boxes in my eyes for them to be meaningfully distinct from other marine armies to have a legitimate claim to design space, if a small one.

And they do have a very small one. Remember that they have 4 kits, one of which is a repackaged monopose from a board game box release, and other than that they're basically like any other chapter.

You might as well ask "Should Salamanders/Raven Guard/Ultramarines/Etc exist". They have fewer unique units than Ultramarines.

They're fine as a mini-faction like Inquisition, Harlequins, Knights, etc.


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SecondTime wrote:
DW are awful. They are GW saying "marines aren't Mary Sue enough. We need even Sueier Sues!"

Your'e like 5 layers of Marine Sue behind at this point if you're whining about DW. Get in line behind GK, Primaris, and Custodes.

OH they're all awful, too. What you just described above for elite units are the Astartes. The Sueier Astartes aren't necessary or relevant.

 bullyboy wrote:
The Nights Watch in space....why is that a bad idea?
There is design space for them so lets just leave it be. At least now they are a supplement and not a separate army.

they've been a A Thing for much longer than the Nights Watch were in popular consciousness, i remember them in the late 90s as a fun little WD article for 3rd ed.

i think the issue is a lot of people still think they should have stayed at the level of "add on squad of anti xenos specialists" they were for so long.

that, and a some of their expanded fluff seems to have rubbed people the wrong way, seeing as a lot of it seems to come across as "hey, you know those ultra elite space marines? those one a million soldiers that can turn the tide of the war with a single battle? well, here is a force that EVEN MORE ELITE THAN THAT!"

I actually love thème very much, the spécialité graines against Denis kill teams thing us something i love for sure... Plus i actually like em because of Eliphas' Behemoth lol.

I agree that the downside of this is putting them as super super soldiers which we've had eniygh of already. But still, even wondered whether i shouldn't start an army of deathwatch

xerxeskingofking wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
The Nights Watch in space....why is that a bad idea?
There is design space for them so lets just leave it be. At least now they are a supplement and not a separate army.

they've been a A Thing for much longer than the Nights Watch were in popular consciousness, i remember them in the late 90s as a fun little WD article for 3rd ed.

i think the issue is a lot of people still think they should have stayed at the level of "add on squad of anti xenos specialists" they were for so long.

that, and a some of their expanded fluff seems to have rubbed people the wrong way, seeing as a lot of it seems to come across as "hey, you know those ultra elite space marines? those one a million soldiers that can turn the tide of the war with a single battle? well, here is a force that EVEN MORE ELITE THAN THAT!"

That's exactly what they are. DW missions would be executed by Astartes. That's the whole point of Astartes. They can't wage proper war due to their numbers. Unless you want to lose 5 chapters a day against Tau doomsday weapons.

I think they're great... as justification for an RPG party of assorted different backgrounds, or at the kill team/combat patrol style missions. I just don't feel they scale well to where 40k is at these days (though ironically, they'd have been pretty neat back in RT).

xerxeskingofking wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
The Nights Watch in space....why is that a bad idea?
There is design space for them so lets just leave it be. At least now they are a supplement and not a separate army.

they've been a A Thing for much longer than the Nights Watch were in popular consciousness, i remember them in the late 90s as a fun little WD article for 3rd ed.

i think the issue is a lot of people still think they should have stayed at the level of "add on squad of anti xenos specialists" they were for so long.

that, and a some of their expanded fluff seems to have rubbed people the wrong way, seeing as a lot of it seems to come across as "hey, you know those ultra elite space marines? those one a million soldiers that can turn the tide of the war with a single battle? well, here is a force that EVEN MORE ELITE THAN THAT!"

Well, Nights Watch and ASoIaF was a big thing in (especially British) nerd-circles in the mid-90s, lol.

GW's concept of what constitutes an "army" is rather nebulous. Basically any potential armed force that exists within the 40k universe gets to become an "army". If one were to do a modern combat game in that vein, we'd be seeing drug running Biker gangs lining up for battle against High Altitude Low Open parachuting SAS, or desert militia Technical caravans getting in pitched firefights with the FBI, or games where the Russian 4th Guards Tank Division is its own faction separate from the rest of the Russian Federation Army and is faced against the US Secret Service in urban combat. Those are the sorts of things 40k routinely presents.

That said, the Deathwatch have been called their own chapter for as long as I've been playing 40k, though being their own dedicated army only dates back a couple editions, however they were intended to be part of an "Alien Hunters" faction in 3E that never managed materialized to accompany the Witch Hunters and Daemon Hunters factions of that era. I think being a chamber militant as part of an Inquisition faction would make more sense, same for GK's, but GW appears to have desired otherwise. I think they make a lot more sense in skirmish games and RPGs, but as a full faction on their own in 40k do feel a bit mis-scaled.

the_scotsman wrote:

I dunno, I think the number of models represented in a typical deathwatch army are perfectly reasonable as a small, elite strike force. Usually, I field about 30 bodies.

A Watch Company, analogous to a slightly smaller Marine demi-company formation and the most commonly utilized strategic element in the newer lore, deploys 40 bodies plus command and support elements. Which coincides pretty damn closely to 9th edition 2000 point games.

I agree with Vaktathi. GW needs to get their head on straight about what they're trying to represent.

I don't need to play a game that's the U.S. Secret Service with British MI6 allies against NORAD.

Astartes are already alien hunters though, right? This is just triple downing on power fantasy of being the MOST ELITEST EVAR.

SecondTime wrote:
Astartes are already alien hunters though, right? This is just triple downing on power fantasy of being the MOST ELITEST EVAR.

Only in the sense that the Imperial Guard are also alien hunters.

As a branch of the Imperial armed services, Space Marines as a whole aren't specialised in the foes they fight. Specific Chapters may, depending on where in the galaxy they're based, end up fighting aliens more often, but equally other Chapters will fight Renegades more often, or Heretics, etc. The Deathwatch are - in the background, at least - hyper-specialised in fighting alien forces, with more knowledge, equipment, etc at their disposal, but that specialisation would mean that they'd theoretically be less effective at taking on other foes.

Knowledge is power; guard it well - a lot of what the Deathwatch knows, and has access to, would cause the =][= to come down on you like a tonne of bricks were you a regular citizen.

When the Deamon Hunter and Witch Hunter dexes came out in 3rd, it was established that:

Chamber Militant Ordo Xenos = Deathwatch
Chamber Militant Ordo Malleus = Grey Knights
Chamber Militant Ordo Hereticus + Sisters of Battle

GW minimized the relationships in 8th. They were still there; there were hints, and at the very least in the GK dex, an explicit reference.
The preview article for DW was titled "The Chamber Militant."

I will be very curious to see whether GW re-emphasizes the concept of Chambers Militant; Kyria Draxus isa pretty big mover and shaker in the Pariah Nexus, and Necrons fall under jurisdiction of the DW. We've got two more WD Flashpoints (at least) set in the Pariah Nexus. DW have a role to play. Now GW's walking back of the Chambers for 8th was never a full on retcon; it was more and error of omission. In other words, they may not have explicitly mentioned the Chambers, but they haven't written anything that prevents them from re-examining the concept later.

I personally think the Inquisition and its affiliated forces is one of the most interesting aspects of 40k; without them, the 40k Universe spins closer to the more generic sort of Starship Trooper Sci-fi. For this reason, I feel like the Chambers are always important and relevant. Lots of people on Dakka prioritize the balance and playability of the game over its background and immersiveness. They want it to be more streamlined and easier to play, because to them, it is only a game. This is a valid and legitimate point of view. And from that point of view, threads like these absolutely make sense.

But the other, equally valid point of view, is that the tabletop game is one element of the overwhelming multimedia entertainment industry that is 40k, and the background, history, fluff and flavour. From that perspective, both the Deathwatch and the Greyknights are an important part of what keeps 40k separate from other space settings, stories and games.
I was ecstatic when DW got a Codex- I was always bitter that 3rd became 4th before we had an Alien Hunter dex; it left the edition incomplete from my point of view. And in fact, while I love the Crusade system, and as a result I love 9th, the DW supplement is literally the only release for 9th that I'm excited about.

I find vanilla marines kinda boring- I haven't been a fan of non-Chamber Marines since about '93.And other than Necrons, that's all 9th has been so far. I'm picking up the supplement for sure; I'll also have to pick up the dex to use it. I'm happy about the former, and less so about the latter.

I hope they never squat the Chamber armies, and in fact I'd love to see an Imperial Agents dex that writes rules for Inquisitors that reflect Chamber relationships on the table.I had hoped it would come in 8th; the return of Rogue Traders to the game made it more necessary than it had been in previous editions. But once again, GW hit the reset button before the edition had everything it needed to be complete. Now that we're here, and BSF is on the out, I'm not 100% sure it will happen at all- there's no way of knowing whether or not GW will continue to support Rogue Traders and all the other fluffy stuff we got from minigames in 8th.

I felt the idea of the Deathwatch showing up as just a squad of vets with experience against certain Xenos worked ok. A whole army of them is silly. The UM Tyranid Hunters did the trick.

Same with GK fwiw. I'd have been plenty happy if they had just stayed as Powerful Psyker Terminator teams with Nemesis Force weapons.

I have never had a DW codex so how has it played out in the past? My understanding is that, especially with the codex and supplement way of working, if you play DW you’re not going to end up fielding an army much different from any other SM, just with some specific characters and units.

Or are DW design to be a special addition to a “proper chapter” to represent their kill team style back ground?


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Sterling191 wrote:
I see we've arrived at "I dont like this army, therefore it shouldn't exist"-o'clock again.

I didn’t say that they shouldn’t exists I am asking if people think DW as they are currently represented suck

I quite like the idea of them, and enjoyed the RPG.

That said, I think that factions that are specifically designed to counter other factions can be very problematic from a game perpective; Grey Knight smites vs Daemons for example.

mrFickle wrote:
Are they just an example of GW having their cake and eating it with imperial armies.

I don’t know in what edition the became a full chapter. The idea of a combined special opps TEAM makes sense but a chapter made of the the best of the best is like an army made of special forces.

Now I think about it I just feel like it’s another lenses to look through at space marines and call the the universes finest warriors.

Or is it there are so many chapters I want to pay them all. It I can’t so I’ll make a special chapter with all of them in it?

Same problem I have with inquisitors having xenos tech and helpers, but that was a different thread

All marines are spec ops, Deathwatch are just a standing force at the discretion of the ordo xenos.

They’re not even specifically more elite, they’d lack many of the tools or resources a normal chapter has in favour of deploying even smaller strike forces for niche missions. I doubt they’d function anything like as well deployed on mass as a coherent force.

Admittedly primaris diluted this somewhat by allowing what amounts to basic tacs but a few inches taller in instead of specialists with specific gear.

DW are pretty neat, lore-wise. The trouble is GW separated them from Ordo Xenos and tried to make them an army. After all, we need more variety in marines......

They would be best represented and utilized in a proper 40k skirmish game, where their high customization and special ops missions and tactics could shine.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
Inherently they aren't a force that should ever be an "army".

Deathwatch have always been about squad based kill teams hunting xenos, although that perception has changed somewhat since they got their own codex.

GW do what they do though, contradicting fluff be damned.

I dunno, I think the number of models represented in a typical deathwatch army are perfectly reasonable as a small, elite strike force. Usually, I field about 30 bodies.

I'm fine with Deathwatch existing in the lore/on the tabletop. They combine the technobarbarian aspects of the imperium, using barely-understood xenos artifacts and looted weaponry, with a sort of dirty dozen style 'diverse specialists' setup.

That checks enough boxes in my eyes for them to be meaningfully distinct from other marine armies to have a legitimate claim to design space, if a small one.

And they do have a very small one. Remember that they have 4 kits, one of which is a repackaged monopose from a board game box release, and other than that they're basically like any other chapter.

You might as well ask "Should Salamanders/Raven Guard/Ultramarines/Etc exist". They have fewer unique units than Ultramarines.

They're fine as a mini-faction like Inquisition, Harlequins, Knights, etc.

I feel like we have the same ideas, but my imagination makes me think of a Deathwatch "army" being more of a kill squad about the size of Kill Team Cassius or smaller, you wouldn't see a force in a 2k game in the fluff for example.

I actually like them in lore, which I should have said, they were originally the faction of space marines I wanted to play but didn't know how to execute them on an army scale, and Kill Team wasn't around at the time for me to do a squad.

I just don't think they or any other small, elite or rarely seen faction should get an army, but that is definitely a discussion for another day.

 Tyranid Horde wrote:

I feel like we have the same ideas, but my imagination makes me think of a Deathwatch "army" being more of a kill squad about the size of Kill Team Cassius or smaller, you wouldn't see a force in a 2k game in the fluff for example.

Yes you will. Kill Teams are the poster child formation for small scale operations, but there are absolutely times when Watch Companies, Stations or Fortresses are deployed in full. There's a great bit where the entire Furor Shield Fortress goes to war en masse, and everyone on the allied Imperial side lost their collective gak.

I love how people that don't play armies tell others people that their army should not exist because it doesnt fit their vision of the fluff or universe, like pricky neighbours that don't like how your fence or your garden decoration looks.

Just like when people claimedTau should not exist. I'm glad that people doesnt has the guts to come out and keep claiming that crap in this day and age.

 Galas wrote:
I love how people that don't play armies tell others people that their army should not exist because it doesnt fit their vision of the fluff or universe, like pricky neighbours that don't like how your fence or your garden decoration looks.

Just like when people claimedTau should not exist. I'm glad that people doesnt has the guts to come out and keep claiming that crap in this day and age.

Tau are great, because Tau aren't just another set of marines.

You were looking to buy some yesterday, what changed your mind?

 Galas wrote:
...Just like when people claimedTau should not exist. I'm glad that people doesnt has the guts to come out and keep claiming that crap in this day and age.

Can I claim 9e shouldn't exist because the short tables and melee king-of-the-hill missions are incompatible with my concept of Tau instead?