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In fact, if I were to pessimistically stereotype most of human conversation in 2020 Dakka, it's people reacting, overreacting, then trying to explain to people on the other side of the fence that their views aren't that extreme and failing to do so or getting accused of being disingenuous, entitled, or moving goalposts, or intricately laid-out arguments countered by "No U".

 CEO Kasen wrote:
In fact, if I were to pessimistically stereotype most of human conversation in 2020 Dakka, it's people reacting, overreacting, then trying to explain to people on the other side of the fence that their views aren't that extreme and failing to do so or getting accused of being disingenuous, entitled, or moving goalposts, or intricately laid-out arguments countered by "No U".

well now you're just moving goalposts!

 CEO Kasen wrote:
In fact, if I were to pessimistically stereotype most of human conversation in 2020 Dakka, it's people reacting, overreacting, then trying to explain to people on the other side of the fence that their views aren't that extreme and failing to do so or getting accused of being disingenuous, entitled, or moving goalposts, or intricately laid-out arguments countered by "No U".

I don't think people bother much with trying to explain anything to the other side anymore, specialy if they are the ones in control. They just do what ever they want and the only interaction some people maybe want is public humiliation of the other side. At least that is the feeling I get from how things work around my part of the world. I mean if people don't let themselfs be convinced or care about what others think, trying to do it is just waste of energy and time. Asserting dominance on the other hand is a thing that feels good.

BrianDavion wrote:
because threads like this are typically nothing but blatent faction bashing and it's inecrediably dischouraging when you log onto a website eager to discuss 40k etc and the first thing you see is a thread basicly saying your beloved army is a horriable blight on the game?

Welp, Astartes players should understand that they're getting vastly more support than other factions, at the expense of those factions. It's not on everyone else to be happy about it. It's incredibly discouraging to see GW ignore your faction for MOAR ASTARTES time after time, but obviously you don't care about that...

Hecaton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
because threads like this are typically nothing but blatent faction bashing and it's inecrediably dischouraging when you log onto a website eager to discuss 40k etc and the first thing you see is a thread basicly saying your beloved army is a horriable blight on the game?

Welp, Astartes players should understand that they're getting vastly more support than other factions, at the expense of those factions. It's not on everyone else to be happy about it. It's incredibly discouraging to see GW ignore your faction for MOAR ASTARTES time after time, but obviously you don't care about that...

It’s not the reason I started the thread but it’s probably a influence in the back of my mind. As someone who played 2nd and skipped 3-7 (but made a bit of effort to keep up with the fluff) seeing armies like DW and GK go from niche ideas that are part of larger army (GK in 2nd not DW) to full blow chapters does feel a bit like a cynical attempt to push more marines that are the same but different to all other marines.

That’s why I find it hard to accept the concept. I know The fluff changes and it’s a lot of effort to keep up with it but for me DW should be more of a dirty dozen than a standing army. But to reiterate I do not want to see any armies deleted from existence.

As GK were raised I also see them as being very special, so special there wouldn’t be enough soldier to fill the ranks of a whole 1000 person chapter. I think in second they were a way of getting some bad ass terminators into a IG army with special skills to face off against chaos. Back when terminators were bad ass.

I think the fluff is an important part of why we choose an army and I am not building a creations of bile army because because I love the rules and think they are going to be hella competitive. If I see an example of GW changing the fluff to facilitate another SM release it puts me off playing SM. But I accept that I haven’t been there for the evolution to unfold.

mrFickle wrote:
It’s not the reason I started the thread but it’s probably a influence in the back of my mind. As someone who played 2nd and skipped 3-7 (but made a bit of effort to keep up with the fluff) seeing armies like DW and GK go from niche ideas that are part of larger army (GK in 2nd not DW) to full blow chapters does feel a bit like a cynical attempt to push more marines that are the same but different to all other marines.

That’s why I find it hard to accept the concept. I know The fluff changes and it’s a lot of effort to keep up with it but for me DW should be more of a dirty dozen than a standing army. But to reiterate I do not want to see any armies deleted from existence.

As GK were raised I also see them as being very special, so special there wouldn’t be enough soldier to fill the ranks of a whole 1000 person chapter. I think in second they were a way of getting some bad ass terminators into a IG army with special skills to face off against chaos. Back when terminators were bad ass.

I think the fluff is an important part of why we choose an army and I am not building a creations of bile army because because I love the rules and think they are going to be hella competitive. If I see an example of GW changing the fluff to facilitate another SM release it puts me off playing SM. But I accept that I haven’t been there for the evolution to unfold.

Fundamentally, I'm not averse to the idea of Deathwatch - in fact, I like how their preferred enemy is various non-humans, which helps to take the focus away from "Imperium vs. Chaos." Their codex, however, should have highlighted the fact that they work with the Inquisition. Same thing with Grey Knights - but the problem is that loyalist Astartes are basically a cancer on this game, and are squeezing out other interesting parts of the setting for their own benefit.

Those are very big words, specialy considering that people who actualy play those armies don't think of their own choice as cancer. I don't think that a BA or SW player thinks that getting a codex for a new edition somehow makes the game worse.

But you know there is always the option sm were given, when their armies were bad. You can quit, or concentrate on painitng.

Karol wrote:
Those are very big words, specialy considering that people who actualy play those armies don't think of their own choice as cancer. I don't think that a BA or SW player thinks that getting a codex for a new edition somehow makes the game worse.

Compared to, say, 3e, the amount of rules and modeling effort spent on Astartes compared to other factions has greatly increased, to the detriment of the whole. The cancer analogy is extremely apt. Astartes players need to understand this.

Karol wrote:
But you know there is always the option sm were given, when their armies were bad. You can quit, or concentrate on painitng.

The problem is that if less Astartes minis sell, GW thinks "gak, we better give them better rules or models!" If more Astartes minis sell, GW thinks "Great, let's make more Astartes minis to sell to those people who like them!"

If less of a given Xenos mini line sells, GW thinks "Better withdraw support for this faction, people don't like them." If more sell, GW thinks "Great! That's enough."

Your implication that non-Astartes players have the same option is just a lie; moreover, Astartes player typically moved their Blood Angels over to counts-as Space Wolves or whatever to remain competitive.

To sum up, you're wrong, I'm right to use the language I'm using.

I don’t think that the number of loyalist marines is necessarily the problem, the codex & supplement setup can be seen as basically one army with options. But only if other armies were given the same treatment. An easy win for GW would have been to have CSM codex with supplements.

All other armies have the fluff that states there is species x with sub faction 1,2&3 which could be exploited to give people more options and turn their attention to non human armies.

I also agree that the number of SM products is not just due to their success, I think their success is also due t the saturation of the game with SM products and options. There is an immersive aspect to a game like 40K and the more immersive options an army has the better it will do as long as the story is good

They're fine as a few units but not a whole army. Grey Knights, Deathwatch, and Sisters need a good size Inquisition codex. Please leave the disparaging comments for elsewhere

Before someone complains "but what about codex price??????"...a codex shouldn't be as expensive as it is to begin with.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They're fine as a few units but not a whole army. Grey Knights, Deathwatch, and Sisters need a good size Inquisition codex. I know the sisters players will complain because that's what they're known for, but they already shared plenty of page space with the Inquisition before, so I don't think some Marine entries are gonna hurt you.

Before someone complains "but what about codex price??????"...a codex shouldn't be as expensive as it is to begin with.

Well, I think there should be the *option* to restrict yourself to just Sororitas, GK's, or Deathwatch... but they shouldn't feel compelled to fill an entire codex of nothing *but* that, we should see Inquisition units, Stormtroopers, etc...

Death watch kinda makes sense in the insane, paranoid and fanatical world of 40k, just like limiting your best forces to 1,000 members only units makes sense there.

10,000 years ago half the space marine legions broke bad, so we can never let any space marine force exceed 1,000 members so when one goes bad (I'm looking at you, red corsairs) it limits the harm they can do.

Sure it's not very sensible and limits your best forces to small units that can be individually destroyed by a determined enemy (Ask the crimson consuls if you can find any left.) but hey, 9 legions went bad 10,000 years ago!

So deathwatch, which someone here described as "mary sueir" that normal marines are limited to special elite strike forces that are often sent on surgical strikes to take out incipient threats or special circumstances. A normal kill team is less than 10 men, but when there is a particularly serious threat (Say, around 2-ish o'clock) you can mobilize up a 30+ man unit for a big operation.

Deathwatch gets gear all marines should have but doesn't because "Oh dear emperor, imagine the harm the red corsairs could have done if they'd had *GASP!* fragstorm rounds for their bolters! Holy terra itself may have fallen to them!"

Yeah, it's a little sarcastic but makes a point about how the imperium thinks.

And to be fair the imperium isn't the only bunch that does stupid things for reasons that make sense in an insane universe. Remember snagrod the arch arsonist and thrugg bullneck? Thrugg was snagrod's best general, basically, so he sent him and hs forces on a suicide attack on rynn's world to either kill thrugg or weaken his forces so thrugg couldn't overthrow snagrod. And the eldar don't get a pass either. "We're a dying race dwindling away to extinction, so every time we have to fight a major action we sacrifice a perfect healthy member of our shrinking race to wake up our god."

At times I think the kroot are the onloy race in 40k with their heads screwed on right.

 Matt Swain wrote:
Death watch kinda makes sense in the insane, paranoid and fanatical world of 40k, just like limiting your best forces to 1,000 members only units makes sense there.

10,000 years ago half the space marine legions broke bad, so we can never let any space marine force exceed 1,000 members so when one goes bad (I'm looking at you, red corsairs) it limits the harm they can do.

Sure it's not very sensible and limits your best forces to small units that can be individually destroyed by a determined enemy (And the crimson consuls if you can find any left.) but hey 9 legions went bad 10,000 years ago !

So deathwatch, which someone here described as "mary sueir" that normal marines are limited to special elite strike forces that are often sent on surgical strikes to take out incipient threats or special ciurcunstances. A normal kill team is less than 10 men, but when there is a particularly serious threat (Say, around 2-ish o'clock) you can mobilize up a 30+ man unit for a big operation.

Deathwatch gets gear all marines should have but doesn't because "Oh dear emperor, imagine the harm the red corsairs could have done if they'd had *GASP!* fragstorm rounds for their bolters! Holy terra itself may have fallen to them!"

Yeah, it's a little sarcastic but makes a point about how the imperium thinks.

It's absurd. The legions were still pitifully small for a galactic level conflict. Absurdism used to be the point, I know, but now they are playing it straight. Deathwatch should just be special units attached to marine armies.

SecondTime wrote:

 Matt Swain wrote:
Death watch kinda makes sense in the insane, paranoid and fanatical world of 40k, just like limiting your best forces to 1,000 members only units makes sense there.

10,000 years ago half the space marine legions broke bad, so we can never let any space marine force exceed 1,000 members so when one goes bad (I'm looking at you, red corsairs) it limits the harm they can do.

Sure it's not very sensible and limits your best forces to small units that can be individually destroyed by a determined enemy (And the crimson consuls if you can find any left.) but hey 9 legions went bad 10,000 years ago !

So deathwatch, which someone here described as "mary sueir" that normal marines are limited to special elite strike forces that are often sent on surgical strikes to take out incipient threats or special ciurcunstances. A normal kill team is less than 10 men, but when there is a particularly serious threat (Say, around 2-ish o'clock) you can mobilize up a 30+ man unit for a big operation.

Deathwatch gets gear all marines should have but doesn't because "Oh dear emperor, imagine the harm the red corsairs could have done if they'd had *GASP!* fragstorm rounds for their bolters! Holy terra itself may have fallen to them!"

Yeah, it's a little sarcastic but makes a point about how the imperium thinks.

It's absurd. The legions were still pitifully small for a galactic level conflict. Absurdism used to be the point, I know, but now they are playing it straight. Deathwatch should just be special units attached to marine armies.

But they're not, and they never will be.

I get that, but I'm allowed to disagree with GW's implementation even if I can't influence it. Just like I can dislike the power armor saturation and not be able to influence it.

Hecaton wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They're fine as a few units but not a whole army. Grey Knights, Deathwatch, and Sisters need a good size Inquisition codex. I know the sisters players will complain because that's what they're known for, but they already shared plenty of page space with the Inquisition before, so I don't think some Marine entries are gonna hurt you.

Before someone complains "but what about codex price??????"...a codex shouldn't be as expensive as it is to begin with.

Well, I think there should be the *option* to restrict yourself to just Sororitas, GK's, or Deathwatch... but they shouldn't feel compelled to fill an entire codex of nothing *but* that, we should see Inquisition units, Stormtroopers, etc...

Well yeah there ARE their own HQ options. You were able to go pure GK and Sisters with the -hunters codices and there was no issue.

SecondTime wrote:


It's absurd. The legions were still pitifully small for a galactic level conflict. Absurdism used to be the point, I know, but now they are playing it straight. Deathwatch should just be special units attached to marine armies.

In the fluff, though, they're more likely to operate as part of an Inquisition strike force than anywhere else.

Hecaton wrote:

SecondTime wrote:


It's absurd. The legions were still pitifully small for a galactic level conflict. Absurdism used to be the point, I know, but now they are playing it straight. Deathwatch should just be special units attached to marine armies.

In the fluff, though, they're more likely to operate as part of an Inquisition strike force than anywhere else, though.

Okay, bolt them on to inquisition, then. Anything to chop down the power armor codex count at this point.

How do you bolt them to the inquisition? I could see an inquisiutor saying "My research has lead me to see this operation must be successful, but the guard forces assigned to it are not assured victory. I am assigning your killteam to aid them and ensure their success. Oh, and kill them afterwards in case any of them got tainted, would you kindly?"

It could go the opposite way or course, a unit of guard are assigned to help a killteam by creating a diversion and providing cannon fodder/monsterbait for the killteam to operate behind.

 Matt Swain wrote:
How do you bolt them to the inquisition? I could see an inquisiutor saying "My research has lead me to see this operation must be successful, but the guard forces assigned to it are not assured victory. I am assigning your killteam to aid them and ensure their success. Oh, and kill them afterwards in case any of them got tainted, would you kindly?"

It could go the opposite way or course, a unit of guard are assigned to help a killteam by creating a diversion and providing cannon fodder/monsterbait for the killteam to operate behind.

The same way GW does anything. Just do it.

 Matt Swain wrote:
How do you bolt them to the inquisition?...

You bring back the Malleus/Xenos/Hereticus Codexes. Inquisitors, Stormtroopers, flexible Henchmen warbands, and the relevant Order Militant.

TBH I think they missed a trick by not giving all <Deathwatch> models the <Ordo Xenos> keyword as well. Then you could take an Inquisitor with some henchmen in the same detachment. Sure you’d lose doctrines (and get the OX chapter tactic rather than the DW one) - but at least you’d be able to do it without forking out 3CP for a Vanguard.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Matt Swain wrote:
How do you bolt them to the inquisition?...

You bring back the Malleus/Xenos/Hereticus Codexes. Inquisitors, Stormtroopers, flexible Henchmen warbands, and the relevant Order Militant.

I think you could put them all into one (big) codex. GW might want to split them up for money reasons.

Lord Zarkov wrote:
TBH I think they missed a trick by not giving all <Deathwatch> models the <Ordo Xenos> keyword as well. Then you could take an Inquisitor with some henchmen in the same detachment. Sure you’d lose doctrines (and get the OX chapter tactic rather than the DW one) - but at least you’d be able to do it without forking out 3CP for a Vanguard.

Because GW retconned the DW/Ordo Xenos connection in order to make DW their own army.
It's stupid and makes no sense, but it is what it is.

SecondTime wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

SecondTime wrote:


It's absurd. The legions were still pitifully small for a galactic level conflict. Absurdism used to be the point, I know, but now they are playing it straight. Deathwatch should just be special units attached to marine armies.

In the fluff, though, they're more likely to operate as part of an Inquisition strike force than anywhere else, though.

Okay, bolt them on to inquisition, then. Anything to chop down the power armor codex count at this point.

Scribbling a different name on the cover doesn't actually drop the codex count, though.

Hecaton wrote:


Welp, Astartes players should understand that they're getting vastly more support than other factions, at the expense of those factions.

In related news. Men’s college basketball, football, and baseball players need to realize their TV contracts that pay for women’s soccer, basketball, and softball are getting vastly more TV time at the expense of those other sports.

Breton wrote:

In related news. Men’s college basketball, football, and baseball players need to realize their TV contracts that pay for women’s soccer, basketball, and softball are getting vastly more TV time at the expense of those other sports.

Dude. Come on. I know this stuff gets to you, but if you talk like the current unprecedented level of release imbalance is justified, you just further cement the opinion the non-Marine players have of Marine players as entitled whiners and the board will be filled with more complaints about Marines because clearly their arguments still need to be heard. I mean, are you expecting them to back down once they've heard your clever analogy? It's just gonna come back harder.

 CEO Kasen wrote:

Breton wrote:

In related news. Men’s college basketball, football, and baseball players need to realize their TV contracts that pay for women’s soccer, basketball, and softball are getting vastly more TV time at the expense of those other sports.

Dude. Come on. I know this stuff gets to you, but if you talk like the current unprecedented level of release imbalance is justified, you just further cement the opinion the non-Marine players have of Marine players as entitled whiners and the board will be filled with more complaints about Marines because clearly their arguments still need to be heard. I mean, are you expecting them to back down once they've heard your clever analogy? It's just gonna come back harder.

Nope, I don’t expect them to do anything but continue whining as an entire Product line is replaced without interrupting current status. I don’t expect them to differentiate between these Marines and Those Marines - be it a specific Chapter, or the Primaris vs Old Marine product lines while still demanding we separate elder from Dark Eldar, orks from Nids, and so on.

How many of those releases were old marines? And if you don’t count some of the limited ones like the anniversary Terminator Chaplain? How many of these new releases replace and old marine unit that is now even less likeLy to get a new release?

Was the retool and rerelease of Sisters “justified”? Will a retool and rerelease of eldar be “justified? Marines didnt “need” a retool because their models are Old, but because players already had all they needed. But they still needed a retool. I’ve got 2 and a half companies or so after 20 years. I’m in no hurry to buy another tactical squad. But I’m buying Intercessors, infiltrators and so on. Both because I think my tacticals won’t have a datasheet (relatively) soon, and because I like to take a little of everything.

I think deathwatch are fine atm. They arent actually deathwatch from the lore, but what 40k army is?

Lore deathwatch killteams would be something like this:

Deathwatch kill team-
consists of 4 deathwatch veterans and 1 veteran seargent. All models are armed with Deathwatch boltguns (which use SIA), frag and krak grenades, and a deathwatch bolt pistol.
Each member of a deathwatch killteam can pick a different primoginator chapter and gain the corresponding chapter traits.
Each member can take a jumppack for 5pts or a bike for 10 points.
The seargent can take terminator armor for 10 pts (this also swaps his bolter and bolt pistol out for a storm bolter and power sword).
Each member can swap out their bolter for a choice on the CCW chart.


Not gonna write out the charts but this is what people wanted from their kill teams.

 CEO Kasen wrote:

Breton wrote:

In related news. Men’s college basketball, football, and baseball players need to realize their TV contracts that pay for women’s soccer, basketball, and softball are getting vastly more TV time at the expense of those other sports.

Dude. Come on. I know this stuff gets to you, but if you talk like the current unprecedented level of release imbalance is justified, you just further cement the opinion the non-Marine players have of Marine players as entitled whiners and the board will be filled with more complaints about Marines because clearly their arguments still need to be heard. I mean, are you expecting them to back down once they've heard your clever analogy? It's just gonna come back harder.

Marine players are the entitled whiners? I don't see marines whining dude. teling you that "Marines get more attention because it's more profitable for GW" is just explaining basic economics.