Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Flinty wrote:
The concept of the deathwing being entirely fielded in terminator armour was a great and flavourful thing for the Dark Angels. For me, having anything else as part of the 1st company kinda kills the tradition for me. Company veterans fit nicely as veteran troops that aren't part of the unique formation. Having company masters that were part of the deathwing but have been rotated out to lead other parts of the chapter is also great. Having the Deathwing just become another random mixture of veterans kitted out in a range of stuff actually makes me feel sad.

Ravenwing was never as focussed on one thing as the Deathwing was. Ravenwing could be in bikes, speeders or other fast vehicles, so expanding to the new Primaris equivalents doesnt bother me so much. Having the Deathwing no longer being entirely terminator based makes me sad.

No it's stupid they don't have Sternguard or Vanguard.

mrFickle wrote:

Voss wrote:

Karol wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
Blade guard might have the deathwing key word but deathwing knights and deathwing terminators are a specific unit that is not available to other chapters.

How does blade guard having the deathwing keyword make them unique compare to other bladeguard.

Do they get a watcher in the dark? For example

having a rule that makes them woundable only on +4, unlike regular other marines blade guards?

DA Bladeguard don't get that. They have the Deathwing keyword, not Inner Circle , and Inner Circle is what gives the 'only wounded by 4+ rolls'
Just like none of the Ravenwing models in the main SM codex actually get Jink. They just have the Ravenwing keyword, which doesn't actually do much beyond making them valid targets for various stratagems, warlord traits and datasheet abilities.


The DA index is kind of a mess for the cross-compatible stuff. Hopefully the actual book will be less so.

Interesting in the current soon to be old codex DW terminators have the inner circle perk

_Deathwing_ terminators do, yes.
But that's a separate data sheet.
DA can take Assault terminators, terminator squads and relic terminators out of the main SM codex. But there isn't much reason to (beyond having 12 units of terminators, or 15 with DW knights)-- the main SM Codex termintor squds all get the Deathwing keyword, but they don't get Inner Circle. That's reserved for the Index datasheets (at least at the moment. We'll see what changes with the actual supplement).

Breton wrote:
About looking for a guy in Dark Angels heresy era black power armor and iconography.

"Look! Brother! I found this "fallen" you look for!"
"That's just a Consecrator sergeant, you idiot, let him go!"
"What about this one?"
"Angels of Vengeance captain. Who told you to punch him in the face?"
"You did, look, he has all three!"
"..."

 Platuan4th wrote:
The very first Primaris allowed into the Inner Circle was Lazarus, who crossed the Rubicon and was already an Inner Circle member. He currently leads the 5th Company.

Uh, no, all primaris librarians are automatically induced from the get go. It's kind of hard to hide any secrets from someone hearing your thoughts.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Primaris are not all brand new marines. In the 100+ years since they were introduces many old marines have upgraded themselves into primaris.

The deathwing could very well be primaris and still have their secrets.

indeed. it amazes me how many people don't get this, it was spelled out pretty clearly in codex 8.5

So the DW that crossed the rubicon and became primaris gave up their terminator armour and went back into the green wing? Or tool on Gracie armour?

mrFickle wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Primaris are not all brand new marines. In the 100+ years since they were introduces many old marines have upgraded themselves into primaris.

The deathwing could very well be primaris and still have their secrets.

indeed. it amazes me how many people don't get this, it was spelled out pretty clearly in codex 8.5

So the DW that crossed the rubicon and became primaris gave up their terminator armour and went back into the green wing? Or tool on Gracie armour?

It's all the chapters armor.

1) primaris don't fit in terminator armor. Like... LITERALLY don't fit inside it.

2) Being deathwing doesn't mean wearing terminator armor. It means being equiped in the best the chapter has to deal with the situations they deploy the deathwing into. Being deathwing is more a paint scheme then a particular mark of armor.

3) Being in the Deathwing means your in the deathwing. They don't go back into the "green wing". They just put on the best armor they can wear and do their job.

I figure in a year or so's time we'll get a primaris terminator unit and this whole argument will be forgotten

 Lance845 wrote:

mrFickle wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Primaris are not all brand new marines. In the 100+ years since they were introduces many old marines have upgraded themselves into primaris.

The deathwing could very well be primaris and still have their secrets.

indeed. it amazes me how many people don't get this, it was spelled out pretty clearly in codex 8.5

So the DW that crossed the rubicon and became primaris gave up their terminator armour and went back into the green wing? Or tool on Gracie armour?

It's all the chapters armor.

1) primaris don't fit in terminator armor. Like... LITERALLY don't fit inside it.

2) Being deathwing doesn't mean wearing terminator armor. It means being equiped in the best the chapter has to deal with the situations they deploy the deathwing into. Being deathwing is more a paint scheme then a particular mark of armor.

3) Being in the Deathwing means your in the deathwing. They don't go back into the "green wing". They just put on the best armor they can wear and do their job.

Except there’s only 2 deathwing units and they are both terminators. You can’t paint a tactical squad bone and give them the DW key word

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
The concept of the deathwing being entirely fielded in terminator armour was a great and flavourful thing for the Dark Angels. For me, having anything else as part of the 1st company kinda kills the tradition for me. Company veterans fit nicely as veteran troops that aren't part of the unique formation. Having company masters that were part of the deathwing but have been rotated out to lead other parts of the chapter is also great. Having the Deathwing just become another random mixture of veterans kitted out in a range of stuff actually makes me feel sad.

Ravenwing was never as focussed on one thing as the Deathwing was. Ravenwing could be in bikes, speeders or other fast vehicles, so expanding to the new Primaris equivalents doesnt bother me so much. Having the Deathwing no longer being entirely terminator based makes me sad.

No it's stupid they don't have Sternguard or Vanguard.

Given the roles of Company Veterans vs. Deathwing if the DA got Sternguard/Vanguard they'd be Company Veterans in green armour, not Deathwing in white.

mrFickle wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

mrFickle wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Primaris are not all brand new marines. In the 100+ years since they were introduces many old marines have upgraded themselves into primaris.

The deathwing could very well be primaris and still have their secrets.

indeed. it amazes me how many people don't get this, it was spelled out pretty clearly in codex 8.5

So the DW that crossed the rubicon and became primaris gave up their terminator armour and went back into the green wing? Or tool on Gracie armour?

It's all the chapters armor.

1) primaris don't fit in terminator armor. Like... LITERALLY don't fit inside it.

2) Being deathwing doesn't mean wearing terminator armor. It means being equiped in the best the chapter has to deal with the situations they deploy the deathwing into. Being deathwing is more a paint scheme then a particular mark of armor.

3) Being in the Deathwing means your in the deathwing. They don't go back into the "green wing". They just put on the best armor they can wear and do their job.

Except there’s only 2 deathwing units and they are both terminators. You can’t paint a tactical squad bone and give them the DW key word

There are now 3 deathwing units and one of them is not wearing terminator armor. You can paint them bone and they give them the deathwing keyword.

 Flinty wrote:
The concept of the deathwing being entirely fielded in terminator armour was a great and flavourful thing for the Dark Angels. For me, having anything else as part of the 1st company kinda kills the tradition for me. Company veterans fit nicely as veteran troops that aren't part of the unique formation. Having company masters that were part of the deathwing but have been rotated out to lead other parts of the chapter is also great. Having the Deathwing just become another random mixture of veterans kitted out in a range of stuff actually makes me feel sad.

Ravenwing was never as focussed on one thing as the Deathwing was. Ravenwing could be in bikes, speeders or other fast vehicles, so expanding to the new Primaris equivalents doesnt bother me so much. Having the Deathwing no longer being entirely terminator based makes me sad.

Yep I am with you on this, I will not add any primaris to my Deathwing unless they make Primaris Deathwing in the future, certain things like Dreadnoughts, contemptors and leviathans all fit the Deathwing theme, land raiders too.

mrFickle wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

mrFickle wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Primaris are not all brand new marines. In the 100+ years since they were introduces many old marines have upgraded themselves into primaris.

The deathwing could very well be primaris and still have their secrets.

indeed. it amazes me how many people don't get this, it was spelled out pretty clearly in codex 8.5

So the DW that crossed the rubicon and became primaris gave up their terminator armour and went back into the green wing? Or tool on Gracie armour?

It's all the chapters armor.

1) primaris don't fit in terminator armor. Like... LITERALLY don't fit inside it.

2) Being deathwing doesn't mean wearing terminator armor. It means being equiped in the best the chapter has to deal with the situations they deploy the deathwing into. Being deathwing is more a paint scheme then a particular mark of armor.

3) Being in the Deathwing means your in the deathwing. They don't go back into the "green wing". They just put on the best armor they can wear and do their job.

Except there’s only 2 deathwing units and they are both terminators. You can’t paint a tactical squad bone and give them the DW key word

At this particular moment in time, there are seven DW units. Not including the Bladeguard Ancient, DW Ancient, DW Champion or DW apothecary.

Voss wrote:

mrFickle wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

mrFickle wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Primaris are not all brand new marines. In the 100+ years since they were introduces many old marines have upgraded themselves into primaris.

The deathwing could very well be primaris and still have their secrets.

indeed. it amazes me how many people don't get this, it was spelled out pretty clearly in codex 8.5

So the DW that crossed the rubicon and became primaris gave up their terminator armour and went back into the green wing? Or tool on Gracie armour?

It's all the chapters armor.

1) primaris don't fit in terminator armor. Like... LITERALLY don't fit inside it.

2) Being deathwing doesn't mean wearing terminator armor. It means being equiped in the best the chapter has to deal with the situations they deploy the deathwing into. Being deathwing is more a paint scheme then a particular mark of armor.

3) Being in the Deathwing means your in the deathwing. They don't go back into the "green wing". They just put on the best armor they can wear and do their job.

Except there’s only 2 deathwing units and they are both terminators. You can’t paint a tactical squad bone and give them the DW key word

At this particular moment in time, there are seven DW units. Not including the Bladeguard Ancient, DW Ancient, DW Champion or DW apothecary.

Well I meant squads but apart from primaris all those units are in Terminator armour. The point I’m trying to get to is with the uniformity of the primaris range are we going to be able to paint anything bone white and give it the DW keyword.

Voss 793629 10977994 wrote:

DA Bladeguard don't get that. They have the Deathwing keyword, not Inner Circle , and Inner Circle is what gives the 'only wounded by 4+ rolls'
Just like none of the Ravenwing models in the main SM codex actually get Jink. They just have the Ravenwing keyword, which doesn't actually do much beyond making them valid targets for various stratagems, warlord traits and datasheet abilities.


The DA index is kind of a mess for the cross-compatible stuff. Hopefully the actual book will be less so.

Well I am sure DA players would like them to have inner circle, because it sound a bit like the your on a jedi council without being a jedi master meme.

mrFickle wrote:


Well I meant squads but apart from primaris all those units are in Terminator armour. The point I’m trying to get to is with the uniformity of the primaris range are we going to be able to paint anything bone white and give it the DW keyword.

Doubt it. I think they'll almost have to be in Gravis or otherwise special. It would be nice if we can paint Heavy Intercessors Bone White and give them DW/etc as a Legit troops choice for a Deathwing Army.

Breton wrote:

mrFickle wrote:


Well I meant squads but apart from primaris all those units are in Terminator armour. The point I’m trying to get to is with the uniformity of the primaris range are we going to be able to paint anything bone white and give it the DW keyword.

Doubt it. I think they'll almost have to be in Gravis or otherwise special. It would be nice if we can paint Heavy Intercessors Bone White and give them DW/etc as a Legit troops choice for a Deathwing Army.

No and no. (though you can paint them bone white as much as you like)

This isn't a mystery.
Dark Angel (& successors) Bladeguard veterans get the Deathwing keyword. So does the bladeguard ancient. And various characters get the DW or RW keyword (chaplains & captains on bikes, chaplains & captains in terminator armor, all librarians) as appropriate. Per the main SM codex.

Various terminator and bike and land speeder squads get the keyword.

That's it. Nothing Gravis gets the Deathwing keyword in any way at all.
Its really clear, to be honest. It gets it if the datasheet has 'Deathwing: if this unit is from the DA chapter (or one its successors) it has the deathwing keyword.' And no gravis unit has that.

Voss wrote:

Breton wrote:

mrFickle wrote:


Well I meant squads but apart from primaris all those units are in Terminator armour. The point I’m trying to get to is with the uniformity of the primaris range are we going to be able to paint anything bone white and give it the DW keyword.

Doubt it. I think they'll almost have to be in Gravis or otherwise special. It would be nice if we can paint Heavy Intercessors Bone White and give them DW/etc as a Legit troops choice for a Deathwing Army.

No and no. (though you can paint them bone white as much as you like)

This isn't a mystery.
Dark Angel (& successors) Bladeguard veterans get the Deathwing keyword. So does the bladeguard ancient. And various characters get the DW or RW keyword (chaplains & captains on bikes, chaplains & captains in terminator armor, all librarians) as appropriate. Per the main SM codex.

Various terminator and bike and land speeder squads get the keyword.

That's it. Nothing Gravis gets the Deathwing keyword in any way at all.
Its really clear, to be honest. It gets it if the datasheet has 'Deathwing: if this unit is from the DA chapter (or one its successors) it has the deathwing keyword.' And no gravis unit has that.

Officially, sure, for now. But given every army is Your Dudes, if someone wants to paint all their Gravis in bone white and call em Deathwing I think that would be cool! So long as they don’t claim rules synergies that aren’t there (unless in Open by agreement) there’s no issue.

 Super Ready wrote:

They are indeed. Frankly, I hope that we don't see any more Deathwing Primaris (outside of characters like the Company Masters), but I fear that we will - because if you ask me, having Bladeguard be Deathwing is already undermining the Deathwing flavour.

What, praytell, is 'the Deathwing flavor'? Heavy armored veterans that have knowledge of the Dark Angels' innermost secrets. It's why the Inner Circle gets recruited from them.

This isn't so much of a problem, because the Ravenwing isn't privy to any of the secrets that the Deathwing are. So having Primaris Ravenwing is no worse than the Chapter having any Primaris in the first place.

The Ravenwing 100% is privy to secrets of the Dark Angels. They don't know everything, but nor do the Deathwing. It's not until being admitted to the Inner Circle that one gets some real semblance of the stories of Caliban and Luther's betrayal. Remember that it's effectively a 'series of revelations' predicated upon not just the veterancy of an individual but also their trustworthiness. That's the whole thing about why it's difficult to really explain to people how DA veterans work, because those who are found lacking in the trustworthiness department? They stay as Company Veterans. Ravenwing are those out actively hunting for the Fallen, and the Deathwing get called in when the Fallen are discovered.

You don't send hunters without knowledge of their prey. It doesn't work.

 Kanluwen wrote:
What, praytell, is 'the Deathwing flavor'? Heavy armored veterans that have knowledge of the Dark Angels' innermost secrets. It's why the Inner Circle gets recruited from them.

The Deathwing flavour used to be - all Terminators, all the time. They suffered in some ways (no Sternguard, no Vanguard) while benefitting in others (wider options for said Terminators).
Diversifying those options dilutes a little of what makes the Dark Angels what they are. ...I'm aware that this is kind of a "snowflake Chapter" argument, but we're talking fluff that has been consistent since aaaaaaall the way back to 2nd ed if not further, so it's a pretty drastic change.

You don't send hunters without knowledge of their prey. It doesn't work.

No point telling us that - GW are the ones that laid Ravenwing fluff out. Besides, all they really need to know is that the prey is a bad mean evil person, potentially with access to power armour and Marine weaponry, and whatever else is in mission specifics - like the layout of the land, etc. Y'know... like all the other Chaos Space Marines out there. That's perfectly serviceable, they don't need to know what this person did 10,000 years ago, if anything it's irrelevant.

Oh, and something else - you have your knowledge of the Inner Circle wrong. Inner Circle are not "recruited from" the Deathwing, it's the other way around. Before the Black Knights came along, the two were synonymous - that is, you became Deathwing at the same time as becoming Inner Circle.

As a big fan of Primaris space marines and decent fan of Dark Angels and Deathwing there are currently some lore-ish issues with equipment. Gravis armor isn't like Terminator armor. Gravis is basically up-armored Tacticus armor just like Phobos armor is down-armored Tacticus armor. Which perfectly allows a player to have ton of Captain or even Chapter Master models as they can be the same dude just wearing different configurations of Mark X armor. That's not to say Deathwing just leaves to armor in the Gravis configuration, but that does feel limiting to me.

As it stands right now, there is no easy answers to incorporating Primaris models into Deathwing. Gravis is the closest Primaris have to terminator armor, but it really doesn't feel it since it is just a configuration of Mark X armor. Yet for all the sense it would make to have Deathwing Primaris strip down to Phobos on the hunt of the Fallen should the Ravenwing lose track of them, it feels really weird to me that Deathwing isn't in the heaviest of heavy armor wielding the chapter's most sacred holy weapons. At the same time, I am among many that have reached Primaris fatigue and is just not ready for a real Primaris equivalent to Terminator armor yet. Also unfortunately, I don't remember there being much that can be done to 'tailor' tactical dreadnought armor to fit most Primaris, and claiming the Rock had a bunch of XXXL suits way in the back also feels cheap. Not to mention weird as Terminators would have the ability to gain the Primaris keyword if that were the case.

All-in-all, I do not envy Dark Angels players who want to convert over or start a Primaris army.

Recruited might be the wrong term, but it is the best term for what goes on with the Dark Angels. Deathwing is the first time that a member of the Dark Angels learns the Dark Angels' secret.

If you aren't trusted enough to gain entry into the Deathwing(which in turn means you were trusted enough to gain entry into the Ravenwing), you're not going to get into the Inner Circle. For cripe's sake, the Deathwing Knights were called out to be Masters in training when first introduced.

I do, personally, feel like there isn't a solid solution for the Deathwing dilemma...beyond what they've done so far which is a few characters and Dreadnoughts.

Lorewise, all members of the Deathwing are in the Inner Circle. Park for a moment that there are circles within the Inner Circle. Not all members of the Inner Circle are in the Deathwing.

Regarding the Ravenwing, the Grandmaster and the Ravenwing Black Knights are members of the Inner Circle, but they are not Deathwing. The rest of the Ravenwing know that they are often hunting for some shady dudes, but they nothing of the Fallen. The lore explains that they get extra scrutiny from the Chaplains etc.

I see no issue having home-grown Primaris like the Bladeguard in the Deathwing. They get screened like everybody else. So perhaps if you are an Intercessor that passes the tests you go to the Bladeguard part of the Deathwing.

Voss wrote:

Breton wrote:

mrFickle wrote:


Well I meant squads but apart from primaris all those units are in Terminator armour. The point I’m trying to get to is with the uniformity of the primaris range are we going to be able to paint anything bone white and give it the DW keyword.

Doubt it. I think they'll almost have to be in Gravis or otherwise special. It would be nice if we can paint Heavy Intercessors Bone White and give them DW/etc as a Legit troops choice for a Deathwing Army.

No and no. (though you can paint them bone white as much as you like)

This isn't a mystery.
Dark Angel (& successors) Bladeguard veterans get the Deathwing keyword. So does the bladeguard ancient. And various characters get the DW or RW keyword (chaplains & captains on bikes, chaplains & captains in terminator armor, all librarians) as appropriate. Per the main SM codex.

Various terminator and bike and land speeder squads get the keyword.

That's it. Nothing Gravis gets the Deathwing keyword in any way at all.
Its really clear, to be honest. It gets it if the datasheet has 'Deathwing: if this unit is from the DA chapter (or one its successors) it has the deathwing keyword.' And no gravis unit has that.

We don't have the new Codex yet. I"m hoping (but not expecting) there's a Strat in there. 2CP all Gravis armor get the Deathwing keyword etc or something like it.

Problem with blade guards being the deathwing primaris option is that have no ranges weapons do they? I suppose you could say that DW terminators are not going away if you want the ranged option but doesn’t help if you want to go all primaris

They have heavy bolt pistols, and I think the new kit will have neo-volkites.

Again, there's also nothing stopping people taking Veteran Intercessors in Deathwing colours.

mrFickle wrote:
Problem with blade guards being the deathwing primaris option is that have no ranges weapons do they? I suppose you could say that DW terminators are not going away if you want the ranged option but doesn’t help if you want to go all primaris

They've got pistols that might as well be bolters.

Breton wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
Problem with blade guards being the deathwing primaris option is that have no ranges weapons do they? I suppose you could say that DW terminators are not going away if you want the ranged option but doesn’t help if you want to go all primaris

They've got pistols that might as well be bolters.

Not the same as storm bolters and power fists is it? How good is that sword?

mrFickle wrote:

Breton wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
Problem with blade guards being the deathwing primaris option is that have no ranges weapons do they? I suppose you could say that DW terminators are not going away if you want the ranged option but doesn’t help if you want to go all primaris

They've got pistols that might as well be bolters.

Not the same as storm bolters and power fists is it? How good is that sword?

+1 Str, -3AP, 2 damage.

About as good as a power fist depending on target (better hit roll, worse wound roll)

mrFickle wrote:
Problem with blade guards being the deathwing primaris option is that have no ranges weapons do they? I suppose you could say that DW terminators are not going away if you want the ranged option but doesn’t help if you want to go all primaris

Bladeguard are very good. They have a 2+, 4+ and great melee. Their shooting is not awesome, but they can shoot. Deathwing Knights, by comparison, have no ranged options.

If you want all Primaris Deathwing I guess you live with Bladeguard for now? I don’t think that Deathwing Terminators are going away.

I wonder if this is the reason they are doing DA supplement later on since this whole new veteran thing Is gonna throw a huge ? On the lore and future of the chapter.

Dark Angel players know better and are assuming this is just a supplement book, no other models or groundbreaking lore update. The hype for 8th codex was unfounded and I wouldn't get excited for this one (beyond excited for what we already got in the index)