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Just looking for different thoughts on the usefulness and load out for infiltrator/incursor squads.
Looking to get use out of these guys since I run a white scars subfaction and it fits my background theme better. (yes, I'm one of those fools who still tries to build their army on theme rather than straight efficiency). I also always feel I need to point out "They suck, never use them" isn't a discussion, and I never know why people even bother to waste the 14 seconds of their life typing this...but hey, that's me, I LIKE a discussion.

So...my army is a thrust and parry style built on movement (I have lots of bikes...) I tend to rush forward and grab as fast as I can, then watch my rush forward get whittled away while the big hitters get into range.

First Incursors or infiltrators? Or both? (I'm not running Intercessors in this army for the above stated reasons) My theory is 3 units of Incursors/1Infiltrators all at 5 models

I like Incursors better because:
1: I like the concealed positions ability for flexibility, and at the cost can still field multiple squads.

2: I get them into CC often. Combat knives took a hit (I run the whirlwind of death chapter tactic, so the knife doubled up...) but AP-1 is something. Thoughts? Wasted because they just don't do enough? I like an early face full of bolter shots and then knives on an objective or even distracting my opponents plans to lunge forward.

3: I have been using Haywire mines. They were great in the 8th book. the new rules make them less useful (on an objective maybe you charge, but with that new mine rule, people will just gun them down. Which is still worth something...) Do people still find the Haywire mine useful?!?

4: I am not convinced the Infiltrators are worth 4 more points each). Same profile, gun has same shots/strength/ap/range. Incursors get no cover save and no minuses to hit. Infiltrators get a hit roll of 6 auto wounds (with my math, this adds .5 wounds to GEQ and .8 wounds to MEQ). The negating cover mostly makes up for this...if the target is in cover (on my tables this is probably more than 50% of the time for bolter targets)

Infiltrator pluses I see:
1: The Helix Gauntlet's save the first failed save is decent. Thoughts on that? It's cost?

2: The communications array is not so worthwhile to me. MSU means rerolls on a 5 man unit that might not last long isn't worth more than the helix gauntlet. Feel free to change my mind, I am really looking for thoughts on this.

3: The omni scrambler. I see the uses of this (pushing deployment reinforcements out of charge range is a big deal) but for me it is MORE useful in your backfield...exactly where I don't want my troops for the most part (Although, I might buy one unit of these to sit on that objective in my D-zone and thumb my nose. They would be a little harder to remove with the gauntlet and omni scramblers...) Anyone? Talk to me about the worthiness of this?


I apologize if this has been beaten to death. The tactics section does not search well, and the basic (army) tactics threads generally become pages and pages that are very hard to wade through for one unit type)

Both units are great in board control. But I think everything is actually heavily depends on what army your opponent plays and what is your whole army / rest of your units, so does the comparison between Incursors and Infiltrators.

For example, if you play SW, WS, BA or BT and your opponent are IG, Tau, and even gunline Nidz without Genestealers and bladed warriors. Incursors would do you better, as they can just Turn 1 charge into enemy first rank chaff units. It may not be necessary in killing all what they charged, but the T1 charge would be more about get into the right place to create a massive road block preventing enemy heavy firepower platforms getting into a better firing position in their turn, and also not allowing them to go to mid field objectives quick.

If you are playing gunline marines such as IH or IF, and facing opponents who can deep strike a lot of units. Infiltrators will serve you better. As it prevents the blocks of Ork Boyz or Khorne Bloodletters suddenly appears in your face. However, as you said, placing them would be a challenge, due to being quite expensive, you would likely only taking one to two squads of them. You are not taking 20 of these models and place them in a "box formation", as such they cannot cover all approaches.

For the infiltrators, I tend to place them in the rear more in the 9th edition. As putting them in the front is letting opponent to kill them in the first round before their deep striking units come in on 2nd round. l

Your Incursor points:

1- Both units have concealed positions, so that’s a wash. I’d suggest that the infiltrators get more out of it, as it pairs very nicely with the scramblers for some serious board control.

2 - AP on the CC attacks is a nice perk, if situational. As a WS you probably are going to rush to the assault doctrine faster then me with my Ultras, so for you, this might be more then just a minor perk.

3 - The mine is nice for holding objectives if your foe is using assault to clear you off of it. How often does this happen? I’ve cleared my share with riflebuts and power swords, but a lot of the time it’s shoot them to death, advance the next turn and hold the empt one.

4 - I also play with a chunk of cover, and negating it would be nice. But I think you are underselling the auto-wound aspect. If you are getting re-rolls, you can fish a little for those 6’s, and they let you wound harder targets. I’ve plinked the last wound off of tanks before. And sometimes things are not in cover, but they always need to be wounded. I agree that the 4ppm is a pretty hard pill to swallow.

1 - What’s the price per wound on an infiltrator? Unless something bizarre happens, you are going to use the medkit at least once. And it negates the hit, not just reduces and damage by 1. So it’s always going to be effective. And pay for itself on the first use. The old version was random and might have taken time to get it’s points back, this one is an auto take IMHO.

2 - If you are playing with the appropriate characters, AND you are not clustering up, I could see the coms being useful. But they struck me as not worth it unless you were going all-in on the theme. Even if going all primaris, I like the non-phobos versions of the HQs better.

3- Concealed positions + scramblers = My objective, anyware Not just backfield screening. 12” is a hard cap to stop people from charging you. Last game my infiltrators were camped out on an objective in an open table quarter. My foe DS’s some guys, but could only shoot me the first turn he was there. He assaulted later, but that was another turn with my boots on the prize. And being ObSec, I held it even in the fight.

Infiltrators are more expensive, and with reason. I like the guns better, the scrambler is a hard stop to a lot of tricks, the medpack is pretty nice, and they have a lot of tricks up their sleeves. Incursors are more situational. They are nice when dealing with to-hit issues and cover. But those are more rare/situational IMHO. Neither squad is as generically useful for the points as intercessors, but I think they have a place in lists. I’m becoming more enamored with my infiltrators the more they see the table. I have a squad of Incursors built, but right now all I have for them is theoretical, as they have yet to get paint and see battle.

 Nevelon wrote:
Your Incursor points:

1- Both units have concealed positions, so that’s a wash. I’d suggest that the infiltrators get more out of it, as it pairs very nicely with the scramblers for some serious board control.

2 - AP on the CC attacks is a nice perk, if situational. As a WS you probably are going to rush to the assault doctrine faster then me with my Ultras, so for you, this might be more then just a minor perk.

3 - The mine is nice for holding objectives if your foe is using assault to clear you off of it. How often does this happen? I’ve cleared my share with riflebuts and power swords, but a lot of the time it’s shoot them to death, advance the next turn and hold the empt one.

4 - I also play with a chunk of cover, and negating it would be nice. But I think you are underselling the auto-wound aspect. If you are getting re-rolls, you can fish a little for those 6’s, and they let you wound harder targets. I’ve plinked the last wound off of tanks before. And sometimes things are not in cover, but they always need to be wounded. I agree that the 4ppm is a pretty hard pill to swallow.

1 - What’s the price per wound on an infiltrator? Unless something bizarre happens, you are going to use the medkit at least once. And it negates the hit, not just reduces and damage by 1. So it’s always going to be effective. And pay for itself on the first use. The old version was random and might have taken time to get it’s points back, this one is an auto take IMHO.

2 - If you are playing with the appropriate characters, AND you are not clustering up, I could see the coms being useful. But they struck me as not worth it unless you were going all-in on the theme. Even if going all primaris, I like the non-phobos versions of the HQs better.

3- Concealed positions + scramblers = My objective, anyware Not just backfield screening. 12” is a hard cap to stop people from charging you. Last game my infiltrators were camped out on an objective in an open table quarter. My foe DS’s some guys, but could only shoot me the first turn he was there. He assaulted later, but that was another turn with my boots on the prize. And being ObSec, I held it even in the fight.

Infiltrators are more expensive, and with reason. I like the guns better, the scrambler is a hard stop to a lot of tricks, the medpack is pretty nice, and they have a lot of tricks up their sleeves. Incursors are more situational. They are nice when dealing with to-hit issues and cover. But those are more rare/situational IMHO. Neither squad is as generically useful for the points as intercessors, but I think they have a place in lists. I’m becoming more enamored with my infiltrators the more they see the table. I have a squad of Incursors built, but right now all I have for them is theoretical, as they have yet to get paint and see battle.

Well done. Most of the above are good points

My only concern on Infiltrators is, if you put them in mid field at the beginning of the battle, enemy can just have some fast moving units to rush them on T1, like Juggarnauts, Genestealers, Ork Bikers and sometimes even footslogging blocks of Ork Boyz, all could easily make T1 charge against units sitting in mid-field, etc. Tbh, T4 Sv3+ non-dedicated-CC MSU marines like 5 man Infiltrator squads, even with 2W each, stands no chance in holding on against these things for more than 1 round of CC in my experience. So the enemy basically wipe them out before their 2nd turn, when their DS units comes in to break lose hell.

Great points!
Neophyte, you are spot on with opponent changes effectiveness of these guys. So thanks for those thoughts. I do favor the first turn charge to put an opponent backpedaling a little.

Any other thoughts, game play exampples, maybe some good combos with other characters? (I am not sold on the Phobos LT)

I run a Phobos Libby for the powers (I like mind raid). With more Phobos units on the table now, do you have any thoughts on the usefullness of that list of powers?

Nevalon: Great insightful thoughts! Exactly the kind of discussion I need/wanted. The plusses and minuses of the units, rather than a simple claim I should use something else.

I hadn't forgotten both units infiltrate, but for me the Incursors will use it far more. I do not want my expensive infiltrators out front. They are more durable, and the incursors better on a charge.

Was glad to I haven't missed the boat on the Omni-Scramblers. I think with my bike army it will just be easier to get characters in range of their aura.

You've convinced me the gauntlet is better than I think. Almost every game its going to save at least 12 points (1 wound on an infiltrator?) and most times more.

Same with the 12" bubble. That depends on army, but can be decisive. That extra turn surviving on an objective is big in the current VP system (which we play to the max, as "Kill the opponent" for us is 40k on easy mode)

I had completely ignored the ability of Infiltrator bolters to wound anything on that 6 to hit. You're right, in certain situations, that can be massive, and rerolls do change the mathhammer, probably increasing the number of wounds over Incursor shots (not going to figure out the math, not worth the time for this)

Hey, also, what are your thoughts on the Phobos list of powers? (obscuration.)

Again, thanks!

edited for listing wrong power.

It's been a minute since I played as loyalists bit here's my thoughts..

Infiltrators break one of the core rules of the game. I would always want at least a unit but here you can take a phobos captain as substitute/supplement just to gain anti DS.

Incursors in white scars are really appealing. I've faced them as WS and Sw and they can be strong if built and wielded well. I haven't brewed with the latest SM strats and nuances yet but I built a concept for a friend in 8th around ultramarines incursors. It basically combo'd their blades with whirlwind and full rerolls to fish for double exploding 6s or as I called it "tesla blades". Turned out to be a brutal combo and now in 9th maybe even stronger.

I think your instincts of 3/1 incursors to infiltrators is a good starting point. And consider adding a phobos captain to double on denying landing zones.

dominuschao wrote:
It's been a minute since I played as loyalists bit here's my thoughts..

Infiltrators break one of the core rules of the game. I would always want at least a unit but here you can take a phobos captain as substitute/supplement just to gain anti DS.

Incursors in white scars are really appealing. I've faced them as WS and Sw and they can be strong if built and wielded well. I haven't brewed with the latest SM strats and nuances yet but I built a concept for a friend in 8th around ultramarines incursors. It basically combo'd their blades with whirlwind and full rerolls to fish for double exploding 6s or as I called it "tesla blades". Turned out to be a brutal combo and now in 9th maybe even stronger.

I think your instincts of 3/1 incursors to infiltrators is a good starting point. And consider adding a phobos captain to double on denying landing zones.

Incusors dual combat blade is now just a washed down Astartes Chainsword. no more double hit on 6s anymore. Now the double hit ability are mostly within Space Wolves Chapter.

Don’t forget about strats and keywords.

They have smoke grenades, so can pop those for a -1 to hit. Helps if you have them in an exposed position, and want to make them see turn 2.

You can also use guerrilla tactics to pop them into strategic reserves. So if they are camped out in the backfield as a screen, once your opponent commits his reserves, you can pack them up and put them someplace more relevant. Beats just chilling in an empty sector.


I think both units offer interesting tricks to the marine toolbox. How many of those are going to be useful depends a lot on your local meta. You pay a premium to have them available. In a straight fight, intercessors are going to get more and better firepower downrange under most situations. These guys bring the tricks, counters, and flex.

This discussion is helpful! Thanks.

@Dominuschao:
First, man I had trouble getting that username down...no clue why.
Second, that is exactly where I used them. Sadly, as pointed out, weakened but still useful. Whirlwind of Death is my trait for White Scars sub chapter. I almost always pair it with the Salamanders copy (each unit gets a reroll of hit and wound) as for MSU like bikers, dreads, characters it is massive (for SM to me this is the best trait). Sometimes I waver between the charge/advance bonus, and the Librarian one (Sometimes I have 2 Libbys going).

@Nevelon: I just found the Guerilla tactics strat. And yeah, changes the worry of having them stuck in the backfield. Sadly, I am themed into my captain on a bike (my own choice) so the captain isn't going to help me. Do wish the LT had the same ability, but probably a little cheap for what that would gain.


I was running 4-6 scout units and will be replacing them. So really appreciate the thoughts.


Right now, my 3-1 ration is going in my list for White Scars. If it matters I am running an non-effecient list of:
Bike captain
Phobos Libby
10 Vanguard Vets with jump packs, half shields, a powerfist and 2 power swords
Ironclad dread with the chainfist and fist
Venerable Dread with twin las/missile
3 units of bikers.
1 5 man kitted for melee,
1 3 unit with attack bikes, max plasma
1 3 unit with attack bike with grav (this one is optional and may be sacrificed for Incursors)
Then I fit the incursors/infiltrators in

I also have a 10 man assault squad in jump packs, several LT options, another libby with jump pack, and other options