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 Denegaar wrote:

Voss wrote:
So, I'm glad DE are coming up (though leery about a thin model update). But this quote from the preview honestly makes me tired.

The first xenos codex of 2021 makes the Drukhari faster and deadlier than ever before. You’ll see:

More attacks
Higher damage
Lethal combat output across the board

More attacks, more dice, more more more more.

And while I get the damage increase on the incubi to combat the 2Ws, I hate to think what's going to happen to the units that don't end up getting a damage bump.

Dialing everything up to 11- just not sure this is the best approach.

While I agree that making everything more lethal is not the solution to balance the game, if a faction has to become more lethal is Dark Eldar.

That's our thing, fast and deadly. I, for one, don't enjoy the abominations we have to play now for being semi-competitive... full Coven with Dark Technomancers for cheesy Reaper shots.

I agree.

However, I can't help but notice an absence of references to, say, 'new models' or 'more options'. Both things Dark Eldar have been in dire need of for almost a decade now.

 vipoid wrote:

 Denegaar wrote:

Voss wrote:
So, I'm glad DE are coming up (though leery about a thin model update). But this quote from the preview honestly makes me tired.

The first xenos codex of 2021 makes the Drukhari faster and deadlier than ever before. You’ll see:

More attacks
Higher damage
Lethal combat output across the board

More attacks, more dice, more more more more.

And while I get the damage increase on the incubi to combat the 2Ws, I hate to think what's going to happen to the units that don't end up getting a damage bump.

Dialing everything up to 11- just not sure this is the best approach.

While I agree that making everything more lethal is not the solution to balance the game, if a faction has to become more lethal is Dark Eldar.

That's our thing, fast and deadly. I, for one, don't enjoy the abominations we have to play now for being semi-competitive... full Coven with Dark Technomancers for cheesy Reaper shots.

I agree.

However, I can't help but notice an absence of references to, say, 'new models' or 'more options'. Both things Dark Eldar have been in dire need of for almost a decade now.

You're not alone in that observation.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Dai wrote:
It's amazing how long it's taking them to make the obvious move of codexing and deamon primarching up Emps Kids and World Eaters. I know those models take some designing but I Imagine they also sell like hot cakes to collectors and gamers alike.

Listen, they have to do Marines, then green marines, then black-and-silver (not to be confused with black-and-white) marines, then dog marines, then red marines.

They have a lot to get through, be patient.

I’m actually surprised how many between codex weeks have been empty. They listed so many units in the codex preview, and I don’t think we’ve seen anything from the codex preview included in any of the codex release weeks. And it’s starting to add up. There’s a lot of Gladiators, Speeders, BGV’s, Erads, and heavy/assault Intercessors to paint for as long as they’re holding off the full kits.

Well, Breton, two of your six go up for pre-order next week, so that's something.

 Dysartes wrote:
Well, Breton, two of your six go up for pre-order next week, so that's something.

Yeah, and I’m sure the Gladiators and Speeders will be one box, three data sheets/units options included... I.e. one box will make any of the three so they’re technically one “release” I’m just shaking my head that they
A) made a giant hype splash tying them in with the codex release while waiting many many weeks after to actually release
B) had any empty preorder weeks. Even one unit from that list on an empty week means fewer people are deciding between this or that new release both on a per-payday and per-paint table basis.

It’s inevitable on a week with more than one new release some players will look at it wondering which unit to get first/instead because of budgetary or backed up paint table or both concerns. Not minimizing those events as much as possible was a flubb on their part.

we know the gladiator is so yeah safe assumption the speeder will be too

It does seem odd to leave four units to come out alongside the DA book, though I can see the thematic tie for the Speeders and, unfortunately, BGV.

Eradicators and HI? Not so much.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

No it isn't. If D2 is just to cancel out the new 2W then we are left back where we started, except for all those weapons that are stuck at D1. It's just more of the Codex arms race.

New? Primaris have had at minimum two wounds for years friend.

And were the primary type of Marine ran. Quite frankly the complaining is a bit silly and, if anything, helps give Incubi a niche over Banshees and Scorpions.

If by "A niche' you mean "hilariously, laughably superior against every target to a ridiculous degree." Remember that a scorpion is WS3+ A2 S4 AP-, and an incubus is now WS2+ A3 S5 AP-3 D2. They're like comparing a vanvet with a relic blade to a naked tactical marine with just a bolt pistol.

I'm not sure it's possible to read much into – or to try and predict – what's coming out when at the moment, given that we know GW is operating at a reduced manufacturing capacity at the moment. I should imagine that there is a lot of juggling around of stuff going on in order to balance keeping a reasonably steady stream of new stuff coming out, keeping pre-existing kits in stock, and mitigating against uncertainty going forward.

Iracundus wrote:
If D2 is just to cancel out the new 2W then we are left back where we started

No. It's worse. D2 cancelling W2 being a new norm means the W10 vehicle is now effectively W5. W12 monstrous creature is W6, because chip damage doubled in effectiveness. Big models that were too fragile before are now made out of wet paper. It also means people who bought into expensive, durable armies like primaris, custodes, nobz, wraiths, warriors, etc, etc, saw their collection peed on and massively reduced in value. I was saying D2 proliferation nonsense that started after 8th edition index was a huge mistake, and even dumber, uncalled for SM buff to W2 (done either to appease tiny, whiny clown minority or because writer is incompetent, I don't know what is worse) only compounded it. GW can now either admit mistake, nerf SM back to W1 and make all D2 weapons back D1 except for S8+ ones, or inflate wounds on everything else. Hello W3 primaris, W4 custodes and warriors, etc, etc. I can't wait till I need to put 3d20 on Rhino to keep track of its wounds

It could be a mistake inferring too much about where 9th is going damage-wise from the Drukhari codex. As has been pointed out, the Drukhari are a 'glass cannon faction', and are therefore (hopefully) outliers.

Outside of Dissie spam(D2 already) and Dark Technomancer the Drukhari were hitting like wet paper and fell apart like one(unless you went full coven). Much of what made Drukhari do any damage had been stripped away since its 5th edition codex(no more trueborns for example) and what remains are crutches that have to be spammed. Especially thanks to how the patrol detachment rule works for the army.

I am actually surprised people are indignant at the original glass cannon army actually getting lethal weapons. If you are a Space Marine player and having issue putting down T3 elves then most likely the problem is in your army build and not in Drukhari getting more damage output.

I am also willing to bet that Drukhari will lose the current Prophets of Flesh trait along with Dark Technomancers - the two things that are keeping the army alive like worn duct tape.

 harlokin wrote:
It could be a mistake inferring too much about where 9th is going damage-wise from the Drukhari codex. As has been pointed out, the Drukhari are a 'glass cannon faction', and are therefore (hopefully) outliers.

We saw it with marines, as a result DE had to be brought up aswell. I think you can infer that if they keep going (its not unheard of for GW to change direction part way through an edition) then everything is going to get even more lethal.

That is why a bunch of people have been calling for marine nerfs, instead of buffing everyone else.
Because this is what happens when you go that route.

 harlokin wrote:
It could be a mistake inferring too much about where 9th is going damage-wise from the Drukhari codex. As has been pointed out, the Drukhari are a 'glass cannon faction', and are therefore (hopefully) outliers.

Exactly.

Feels like a lot of people forget the "glass" in the glasscannon. Primaris can rip through a Raider and Venom with bolters, and not to mention Heavy Bolters that are now even stronger against these flimsy vehicles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ordana wrote:

That is why a bunch of people have been calling for marine nerfs, instead of buffing everyone else.
Because this is what happens when you go that route.

I don't necessarily think the increased damage is necessarily the problem - as it gives us a certain depth in one area that has remained stagnant - but the asymmetrical wound pool boosting.

I actually think raiders and venoms are more durable (per point, since that needs to be said) in a marine meta than things like Rhinos or Impulsors.

They don't pay for a 3+ armor save they aren't using, they have an invuln against Melta, they're high enough toughness that Bolters still wound on 5s (same as Rhinos and Impulsors) but they don't pay for T7, and they have just as many wounds as Rhinos and Impulsors.

Gotta love people being indignant at the idea of specialized Elite-killing Elite units having D2 weaponry.

It's not like Kabalites are getting it.

I'm sorry you think that D2 weapons on Elite units should be restricted to BGV and Terminators but uhhhh from a gameplay and lore perspective that's a complete load of gak. Quite frankly units like Incubi and Praetorians should obliterate your standard Marine. They're easily capable of doing it in the lore and they should be capable of it on the tabletop. Making units like them only D1 just makes them completely irrelevant and ensures they'll never be used in any context.

Yeah, marines being W2 devalues vehicles, heavy infantry, bikes, etc.... people were definitely saying that when marines were being moved to W2, but people were so busy jerking over how fluffy it was that 10 tactical marines were tougher than the rhino they were riding in on that it didn't matter.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I actually think raiders and venoms are more durable (per point, since that needs to be said) in a marine meta than things like Rhinos or Impulsors.

They don't pay for a 3+ armor save they aren't using, they have an invuln against Melta, they're high enough toughness that Bolters still wound on 5s (same as Rhinos and Impulsors) but they don't pay for T7, and they have just as many wounds as Rhinos and Impulsors.

Doesn't change the fact that those Primaris are going to rip through those Raiders and Venoms with ease(rate of fire and AP) while kabalites will have a hard time killing that rhino/Impulsor with their poison weapons. Where, btw, the rhinos are going to be using that 3+ save to great effect as poison weapons aren't exactly armor piercing much these days.

Also a single melta shot is more likely going to kill a venom that fails its save, whereas a dark lance is maybe going to do 6 damage(not enough to kill a rhino or Impulsor) or 1 damage. Plus the Dark Lance is a heavy weapon which means -1 to hit for that Warrior if they move.

That's before we take into account that the Space Marines have T4-5 on their infantry with 3+ save being the average whereas Dark Eldar are T3 with 5+ save on average and a 6+++ that will save the occasional wound. There is a reason why Prophets of Flesh is such a crutch right now as it is one of the few things providing the faction with any durability.

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, marines being W2 devalues vehicles, heavy infantry, bikes, etc.... people were definitely saying that when marines were being moved to W2, but people were so busy jerking over how fluffy it was that 10 tactical marines were tougher than the rhino they were riding in on that it didn't matter.

Honestly, all vehicles and monsters should double in wounds at this point.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, marines being W2 devalues vehicles, heavy infantry, bikes, etc.... people were definitely saying that when marines were being moved to W2, but people were so busy jerking over how fluffy it was that 10 tactical marines were tougher than the rhino they were riding in on that it didn't matter.

Honestly, all vehicles and monsters should double in wounds at this point.

But then Marines might not feel appropriately tough. How about we make them four wounds each?

 vipoid wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, marines being W2 devalues vehicles, heavy infantry, bikes, etc.... people were definitely saying that when marines were being moved to W2, but people were so busy jerking over how fluffy it was that 10 tactical marines were tougher than the rhino they were riding in on that it didn't matter.

Honestly, all vehicles and monsters should double in wounds at this point.

But then Marines might not feel appropriately tough. How about we make them four wounds each?

I get youre joking but an actual solution to this is to make anti-tank and anti-infantry weapons only effective at killing their intended target.

 vipoid wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, marines being W2 devalues vehicles, heavy infantry, bikes, etc.... people were definitely saying that when marines were being moved to W2, but people were so busy jerking over how fluffy it was that 10 tactical marines were tougher than the rhino they were riding in on that it didn't matter.

Honestly, all vehicles and monsters should double in wounds at this point.

But then Marines might not feel appropriately tough. How about we make them four wounds each?

No, the only appropriate thing to do is to take the marine statline which has been static since whatever 3rd edition, update that, and then STOP. IMMEDIATELY. Push back against anyone else who thinks their statline should be updated! No! Eldar Guardians SHOULD be statistically the same as guard veterans! That's fine! There's no problem! You should need 19 kabalite warriors to kill one space marine!

the_scotsman wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, marines being W2 devalues vehicles, heavy infantry, bikes, etc.... people were definitely saying that when marines were being moved to W2, but people were so busy jerking over how fluffy it was that 10 tactical marines were tougher than the rhino they were riding in on that it didn't matter.

Honestly, all vehicles and monsters should double in wounds at this point.

But then Marines might not feel appropriately tough. How about we make them four wounds each?

No, the only appropriate thing to do is to take the marine statline which has been static since whatever 3rd edition, update that, and then STOP. IMMEDIATELY. Push back against anyone else who thinks their statline should be updated! No! Eldar Guardians SHOULD be statistically the same as guard veterans! That's fine! There's no problem! You should need 19 kabalite warriors to kill one space marine!

If marines were costed appropriately i would be fine with it. Sadly, theyre all undercosted for their resilience and instead of costing them higher, GW upped the damage all around, which makes the already squishy factions even more squishy.

 Eldarsif wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I actually think raiders and venoms are more durable (per point, since that needs to be said) in a marine meta than things like Rhinos or Impulsors.

They don't pay for a 3+ armor save they aren't using, they have an invuln against Melta, they're high enough toughness that Bolters still wound on 5s (same as Rhinos and Impulsors) but they don't pay for T7, and they have just as many wounds as Rhinos and Impulsors.

Doesn't change the fact that those Primaris are going to rip through those Raiders and Venoms with ease(rate of fire and AP) while kabalites will have a hard time killing that rhino/Impulsor with their poison weapons. Where, btw, the rhinos are going to be using that 3+ save to great effect as poison weapons aren't exactly armor piercing much these days.

Also a single melta shot is more likely going to kill a venom that fails its save, whereas a dark lance is maybe going to do 6 damage(not enough to kill a rhino or Impulsor) or 1 damage. Plus the Dark Lance is a heavy weapon which means -1 to hit for that Warrior if they move.

That's before we take into account that the Space Marines have T4-5 on their infantry with 3+ save being the average whereas Dark Eldar are T3 with 5+ save on average and a 6+++ that will save the occasional wound. There is a reason why Prophets of Flesh is such a crutch right now as it is one of the few things providing the faction with any durability.

The post I was replying to (of yours) specifically said that Primaris with bolters will be ripping up those flimsy tanks.

I am, of course, pointing out that those "flimsy tanks" are exactly as flimsy to Primaris bolters as Rhinos and Impulsors are, and actually less flimsy point-for-point. The idea that Dark Eldar are glass cannons and need to die as soon as the enemy looks at them is not only silly on the face of it (after all, speed can be a form of durability depending on how the units are used on the table) but also isn't even true.

The Drukhari previews illustrate, undeniably, escalating lethality to match the escalating durability of Marines. I don't think that's refutable by a cogent argument, and escalating lethality is the last thing 40k needs.

If people want Marines to feel durable, they have to make MEQ units not the most common foe on balance. The issue with Marine durability is everyone tailors against them by default, because they're the default foe. Marines are victims of their own success.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, marines being W2 devalues vehicles, heavy infantry, bikes, etc.... people were definitely saying that when marines were being moved to W2, but people were so busy jerking over how fluffy it was that 10 tactical marines were tougher than the rhino they were riding in on that it didn't matter.

Honestly, all vehicles and monsters should double in wounds at this point.

Yes, Myphitic Blight-haulers need to go to 16 wounds a piece, you are 100% right !!! We will have so much fun

 addnid wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, marines being W2 devalues vehicles, heavy infantry, bikes, etc.... people were definitely saying that when marines were being moved to W2, but people were so busy jerking over how fluffy it was that 10 tactical marines were tougher than the rhino they were riding in on that it didn't matter.

Honestly, all vehicles and monsters should double in wounds at this point.

Yes, Myphitic Blight-haulers need to go to 16 wounds a piece, you are 100% right !!! We will have so much fun

Ahh, yes. Lets try and make my argument invalid by taking one of the most resilient vehicles in the game as an example.
Lets not use things like devilfish, any rhino chassis, raiders, leman russ, carnifex or trukks.

You know fully well that it would be on a case by case basis but that wounds overall should go up.
A tactical squad having more wounds than the rhino carrying them makes total sense.

Don't some vehicles rely on having under 10 wounds, like the dreads or character speeders. If they suddenly jumped to 18 wounds, they would get worse.

the doubling of wounds would be good only for very high T vehicles or stuff that has invs or aura stacing like demon vehicles.

So we already know that the Death Guard are going to lose in the upcoming Charadon campaign book



What a shock

 Marshal Loss wrote:
So we already know that the Death Guard are going to lose in the upcoming Charadon campaign book



What a shock

I've seen villains in Saturday-morning cartoons who get more victories than the evil 40k factions.

I think Incubi were always going to get the 2 damage treatment. They were effectively WS 2+ by turn 3 anyway so... not totally sure this is as big a buff as some might think. What is perhaps more interesting is that they are staying at 1 wound. Notionally makes them sort of fragile but potentially much more lethal compared with Skorpekh Destroyers/Bladeguard Vets.

Would expect Banshees to get 2D too when their codex comes round. Their "thing" has always been killing Marines (badly).

Is everyone getting 2D an issue? Yes - but if all MEQ are 2 wounds, you kind of have to. GW have made AP- D1 almost useless against MEQ which makes up a huge percentage of the played armies. Which you might say would be good for reducing lethality, but it just means everyone glasshammers up into 2D weapons. Unsurprisingly there are knock ons to vehicles - but this I imagine will be trying to make Dark Lances not lolworthy compared to MMs, rather than Incubi jumping in and shredding Rhinos.

Basically I think this edition is going to be screwed, at least for a year, while these "upgrades" are rolled out piecemeal.

I think it would have been much better to have done them all at the same time.